Indian Space Programme Discussion

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symontk
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by symontk »

SSridhar wrote:Some more info on what dhiraj has already posted on tweaking GSLV-MkII
Series production

S. Somanath, Director, LPSC, said the success of the GSLV D6 had proved the maturity of CUS and its evolution into a reliable engine. The challenge, he said, was to take up series production of the engine to meet the launch requirements. “The target is to produce two engines per year.” ISRO has plans to use the GSLV for 10 of the 30 launches over the next three years. {GSLV alone would be 3 launches a year?}

The CUS which powered GSLV D6 flight on Thursday was lighter by 40 kg and had an 11 per cent higher thrust than the engine used in the previous flight of the GSLV in 2014, enabling the rocket to carry an additional satellite mass of 100 kg. LPSC scientists hope to enhance the thrust of the engine by 26 per cent. “It may take two more launches over the next three years to reach this stage,” Mr. Somanath said.
Instead of launching 2 PSLV's, one GSLV can be launched, better still an LVM3 launch would suffice for 2 GSLV's too. Imagine if all LEO/SSO PSLV launches for an year can be done thru a single LVM3 launch

CS-12 should be able to grow to CS-18 at least
Vayutuvan
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

svinayak ji: come on, boss. You should know better. I mean the upfront part. One can get away with 10 5 billion installments as the satellites are delivered.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 31 Aug 2015 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by gakakkad »

>>its time to demystify the whole onlee-goras-own-space thing and everyone from mali to fiji should have a mars or moon probe or a ping ping keepalive sat.

+786...
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by kit »

The UAE has ambitious targets in every sector Economy , defense, space and detailed plans with the political will to carry through .. a new thread to follow up the UAE investments would be interesting for India
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

While MK 3 is in trial stage we should start conceptualising our own space station. If we start now probably in next 25 years we will see something materialised. Having own space station is a need (must!) of 21st century.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by durairaaj »

abhijitm wrote:... Having own space station is a need (must!) of 21st century.
For what? to send government primary school and high school teachers to play marbles in space and describe how great wall of china is visible from space.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

durairaaj wrote:
abhijitm wrote:... Having own space station is a need (must!) of 21st century.
For what? to send government primary school and high school teachers to play marbles in space and describe how great wall of china is visible from space.
That what you think a space station is for? How about thinking 100 years ahead for now?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by srin »

Manned missions are expensive. On top of that, the space stations are white elephants - they require frequent reprovisioning and on top of that, the experiments you can do there don't justify the costs.

Sure - have manned capability but as a "checkbox" capability, something proven (a flight a year), but focus on unmanned.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

"space station" is a SciFi word. In reality it is a space laboratory. A number of researches happen in space station. No country will have access to it unless they have invested in creating own space laboratory. Pride, prestige and fun (may be) are just derivatives. We are growing economically and we should be able to afford an expensive lab up there in next 25-30 years.

Have a look at the researches happening/happened in international space station.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/experiments_by_name.html
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Singha »

space station needs the ability to lift atleast 25t pieces into orbit , in quick succession and join them up.
so that would need essentially a new vehicle similar to the Ariane5, Angara, LongMarch5.

diameter has to be nearly double of todays GSLV @ 7m with new generation of cryogenic engines.

however it would be a white elephant launch vehicle after that, as I dont think other than KH12 type monster sats, any other sat needs to be that big.

4t to GTO ought to be enough for 12-15t to MEO only thing is wider payload fairing and reliable and high sortie rates.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by TSJones »

Singha wrote:space station needs the ability to lift atleast 25t pieces into orbit , in quick succession and join them up.
so that would need essentially a new vehicle similar to the Ariane5, Angara, LongMarch5.

diameter has to be nearly double of todays GSLV @ 7m with new generation of cryogenic engines.

however it would be a white elephant launch vehicle after that, as I dont think other than KH12 type monster sats, any other sat needs to be that big.

4t to GTO ought to be enough for 12-15t to MEO only thing is wider payload fairing and reliable and high sortie rates.
...some outside of the box thinking:

http://www.space.com/30277-bigelow-aero ... ation.html

In few years India may be able to buy a commercially built space station in the orbital inclination of its choosing. Then all India would have to do is have its own manned space rocket launches to send personnel, supplies and gear to the station.

I don't think India will ever partake of this system for various reasons(made in the US, could be sanctions, US goras making a profit off of India, etc.) but the options will be there. No gigantic "white elephant" launch rockets needed.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by srin »

I'd rather we be the supplier (unmanned/cargo) to the space station than operate one ourselves. More the launches, the more the revenue, the more the funds for research and exploration.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by TSJones »

srin wrote:I'd rather we be the supplier (unmanned/cargo) to the space station than operate one ourselves. More the launches, the more the revenue, the more the funds for research and exploration.
Indeed. However, that is going to be very competitive shortly. I don't see India doing it. India will go it alone and offer surplus capabilities commercially whenever it can on an ad hoc basis.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Bade »

Regarding the UAE thing, better to ask them to collaborate on the next Mars mission like we did with the US. They can have a payload on the bus. We have better things to do than just support other nations pet ideas for a few dollars.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

Singha wrote:space station needs the ability to lift atleast 25t pieces into orbit , in quick succession and join them up.
so that would need essentially a new vehicle similar to the Ariane5, Angara, LongMarch5.

diameter has to be nearly double of todays GSLV @ 7m with new generation of cryogenic engines.

however it would be a white elephant launch vehicle after that, as I dont think other than KH12 type monster sats, any other sat needs to be that big.

4t to GTO ought to be enough for 12-15t to MEO only thing is wider payload fairing and reliable and high sortie rates.
In my opinion once MK3 becomes operational it won't be much difficult to augment the vehicle for larger payload. Of course, nothing come so easily. My point is if we do not start thinking and conceptualising the next big step now then there is a good chance we will be left far behind in terms of technology in coming 80-100 years.

Many asian countries will try to catch up by creating satellite and launch vehicles. In next 75 years it won't be of a niche technology. We have done enough of that and will keep doing it. But we need to step up in space.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Singha »

True. But better start design activity on a
Hslv then plus further mods on gslv and pslv


For what it does the pslv is huge and should be made cheaper and lighter
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by gakakkad »

eventually we ll have to work on alternative propulsion etc...

a low hangig commerical goal is space tourism...
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by symontk »

With PAM-G, PSLV should be able to deliver bigger payloads. PAM-G can replace the current 4th stage

PAM-G will get tested thru GSLV's Chandrayaan - 2 mission

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tug
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by symontk »

gakakkad wrote:eventually we ll have to work on alternative propulsion etc...

a low hangig commerical goal is space tourism...
LVM3 has shown that it can propel a 100 ton payload to around 100kms with 2 solid strapons and L-110. That experience can be levaraged with the SC-200 to give a sizable tourist plane which files around at 150km
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Gakakkad: they charge, what, 250k, for a reservation on space tours, right? Charge 50k and develop immersive virtual reality - hardware and software. Safer for the potential tourists. Demand will be 100x. Other than a handful how many uber rich would take a chance of not getting back in one piece? They will pay for the whole family and even gift it to near and dear, friends if it is virtual reality. Costs can be tamped down. Of course new footage needs to constantly produced but that can be done through unmanned missions.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

We keep blaming DD for poor coverage but have a look at this and then we can understand that whatever - DD is still required for such coverage.
In fact there was an open invitation on the ISRO website tfor reporters to come and register to cover the launch.

http://forbesindia.com/blog/technology/ ... -and-isro/

Only one national English news channel apart from Doordarshan sent its crew to cover the launch of GSLV-D6 at Sriharikota on August 27. The others, preoccupied with the Sheena Bora murder story and the plot surrounding the sordid case, even relegated the news of the successful launch to the ticker.
But the less-celebrated textbook launch of GSLV-D6 was by far one of the most significant moments in the history of India’s Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) programme. When the launch vehicle injected the satellite (GSAT-6) weighing 2.2 tonne into its precise orbit at the end of its brief 17.04-minute flight, the message to rest of the world was clear – India has built and validated a perfectly working cryogenic engine. And the highly complicated engine has delivered a perfect performance on flight not once but twice (GSLV-D6 was the second successful launch using the indigenously developed cryogenic engine after the January 2014 launch). This, despite sanctions and restrictions (on transfer of dual use technologies) thrown at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) by developed nations who were clearly not comfortable with the idea of another player entering their select grouping that had the capability to launch heavy communication satellites.
A series of failures for varied reasons since 2006 had put enormous pressure on ISRO’s GSLV programme and the morale of scientists working on it took a beating. But they laboured on. This success would add to their confidence in a big way and it was already visible in their body language at the GSLV-D6 post-launch press conference. With the design of the launch vehicle and the working of the cryogenic engine validated, ISRO has begun to talk about the commercial opportunities.
Space agencies of developed nations have reason to be worried about Indian space programme in general and GSLV’s success in particular. Consider this: It cost ISRO $36 million to put GSAT-6 using GSLV-D6 in orbit. This is far lower than the $60 million cost that the European Space Agency’s Ariane 5 entails. ISRO says it is now ready to launch commercial satellites weighing up to 2.2 tonne.
What next? ISRO has to keep launching more GSLVs to establish the reliability of the launch vehicle. Its customers who are investing multi-million dollars in building advanced satellites are not going to hand over them to ISRO simply on the basis of lower cost. Reliability is the key in this business and it comes from repeated textbook launches. If ISRO’s smaller launch vehicle PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle) is attracting orders in droves it is because it has been in service for 20 years and has had 29 continuous successful launches.
ISRO has decided to launch two GSLVs a year. But this is easier said than done and requires the agency to augment its capacity dramatically. It has already announced plans to build a third launch pad and create another vehicle assembly facility. ISRO is also working to reduce the lead time to launch. GSLV-D6 was launched in a record time of 100 days when the first part of the launch vehicle reached Sriharikota. If the agency is planning to increase the number of launches, this will have to reduce further. China, experts say, manages as many as 25 launches a year compared to India’s five.
Apart from creating the capabilities to increase the frequency of launches, ISRO is also working to tweak GSLV to enable it to carry a higher payload. Work is on to reduce the weight of the launch vehicle which will then make it possible to put a 2.5 tonne payload. The weight of GSLV-D6 (excluding the fuel and payload) was 53 tonne.
The next real technology leap for ISRO is GSLV Mark III which will have the capability to put satellites weighing 5 tonne in orbit. It is a much larger vehicle weighing 640 tonne (GSLV-D6 in comparison weighed 416 tonne). ISRO is developing a bigger cryogenic engine for this vehicle and it has now been tested for 800 seconds. In December last, the agency had successfully launched GSLV Mark III without the cryogenic stage to validate the functioning of the first and the second stage of the rocket. GSLV Mark III now awaits its cryogenic engine. If GSLV Mark III succeeds, India will gain the capability to launch any communication satellites in the world. GSLV-D6’s success gives the confidence that it is only a matter of time before that will happen too.
Tags: communication satellites, Cryogenic engine, Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle programme, GSAT-6, GSLV, Indian Space Research Organisation, ISRO, Sriharikota
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SaiK »

Camera costs have become peanuts. I think ISRO can mount so many of them and link them via telemetry channel. btw, has ISRO any plans for space telescopes? The comms for sharing data can be the same, but camera devices can be linked. We can get wonderful shots as preserves.

camera locations
- strap ons [cheapo recoverable]
- 2nd stage [cheapo throwable]
- 3rd [cheapo]
- on board the satellite [permanent]

forget DD, ISRO can have them online for viewers pleasure. Nothing gratifying and building your pride than seeing them live!
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by shaun »

true , for common people it very hard to understand and imagine how this "rocket thing " works , live view of stage separations and maybe space , will bring larger audience ( and with it media coverage ) , enthusiasm and more talents.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

SaiK wrote:Camera costs have become peanuts. I think ISRO can mount so many of them and link them via telemetry channel. btw, has ISRO any plans for space telescopes? The comms for sharing data can be the same, but camera devices can be linked. We can get wonderful shots as preserves.

camera locations
- strap ons [cheapo recoverable]
- 2nd stage [cheapo throwable]
- 3rd [cheapo]
- on board the satellite [permanent]

forget DD, ISRO can have them online for viewers pleasure. Nothing gratifying and building your pride than seeing them live!
Actually I saw the internal camera's were monitoring the space vehicle during launch- we could see it when they showed the control room consoles.-They are not just broadcast. Also it is not an ordinary cmaera that will be mounted on the space vehicle- remember that this ahs to bear extreme thermal and other physical loads.
Last edited by member_28108 on 31 Aug 2015 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSSalvi »

SaiK wrote:Camera costs have become peanuts. I think ISRO can mount so many of them and link them via telemetry channel. btw, has ISRO any plans for space telescopes? The comms for sharing data can be the same, but camera devices can be linked. We can get wonderful shots as preserves.

camera locations
- strap ons [cheapo recoverable]
- 2nd stage [cheapo throwable]
- 3rd [cheapo]
- on board the satellite [permanent]

forget DD, ISRO can have them online for viewers pleasure. Nothing gratifying and building your pride than seeing them live!
ASTROSAT .. in a couple of months.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"ASTROSAT .. in a couple of months."


It's supposed to be on Monday, Sept 28th. Hope they stick to that original date!
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by disha »

SaiK wrote:Camera costs have become peanuts. I think ISRO can mount so many of them and link them via telemetry channel. btw, has ISRO any plans for space telescopes? The comms for sharing data can be the same, but camera devices can be linked. We can get wonderful shots as preserves.

camera locations
- strap ons [cheapo recoverable]
- 2nd stage [cheapo throwable]
- 3rd [cheapo]
- on board the satellite [permanent]

forget DD, ISRO can have them online for viewers pleasure. Nothing gratifying and building your pride than seeing them live!
I built a model rocket., that can go up more than a mile - was running on F composite motors (F50-9T to be precise). After one successful launch I decided to put in a camera - one of those micro cameras and the entire assembly including the lithium battery (very costly at that time) did not exceed more than 100 gms.

So I design a mount for the camera and assembly and integrate it with the rocket and fire it up.

I forgot to take into account one equation. That is when the rocket is accelerating., at 2g the weight of the assembly is 2x the weight measured - so it is 200 gms and at 4g (typical acceleration) - so the whole assembly is now weighing some 400 gms. My mount was not designed for such a load - result - the camera assembly falls through the body and jams up the parachute (for recovering my rocket) - result, on the way down - the rocket has become a missile. It just comes down like a sleek arrow and punches itself into the earth almost 4-5 inches.

Point is simple, just adding a camera on the rocket - may sound easy - however it does require lot of engineering around it. Right from design and testing of mounts to downloading the telemetry.

Instead of sending up a camera to get some pretty pictures (and ISRO did in this case is to gawk at the boring shroud assembly in case the CUS decides to misbehave)., a better option will be to have multiple high speed 8K cameras on the ground. It will give GSLV launching nice and slowly with all the frangible tiles floating and then shattering., basically a poetry in motion.

PS: And BTW while the camera assembly decides to travel down., it also shifts my Cg and my rocket starts misbehaving (does a complete aerial chakra- I knew it instantly what happened)
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"ASTROSAT .. in a couple of months."


It's supposed to be on Monday, Sept 28th. Hope they stick to that original date!
Why the sceptism. There is always a reason for a delay - is it better to blow up the launcher or have a malfunctioning satellite ?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Are they really "frangible tiles" I could not find that out on Google. I thought that they were condensate on the CUS stage that fell off as icy shards when it was launching. You see the same on Apollo launch videos.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

prasannasimha wrote: Why the sceptism. There is always a reason for a delay - is it better to blow up the launcher or have a malfunctioning satellite ?
Definitely, but just on Thursday after the GSLV launch, Kiran Kumar or some other ISRO spokesman, said Astrosat will be launched at the end of September. What could have occurred in just 4 days?
Last edited by Varoon Shekhar on 01 Sep 2015 08:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

some Radio telescopes use Inferometry, with multiple smaller antennas making a really big virtual antenna like the GMRT, Pune that has 30 antennas each of about 45m in size and separated by 25km in distance from each other, the equivalent antenna size is given as whopping 25kms. They would have to be synchronized though where atomic clocks can be used similar to the ones used in the IRNSS cluster

The GSAT-6's antenna weighs 43kg, so a closely spaced cluster of these can improve the angular resolution of a sat phone signal to a few meters on ground? people were having such a hard time locating the MH370's pings or the Dornier that went off the Tamilnadu coast which probably didn't have a sat transponder

From the docking experiment article, "There will be no communication link between the target and chaser during the far range rendezvous phase in which relative separation between the spacecrafts will be around 50km to 5km range and this phase will be a ground guided phase. In the docking phase of the mission, docking sensors such as Laser Range Finder during the relative separation of 5 km to 0.25km, Docking Camera during the relative separation of 300m to 1m ,Visual Camera for real time imaging during the relative separation of 1m to docking will be used respectively."
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:
prasannasimha wrote: Why the sceptism. There is always a reason for a delay - is it better to blow up the launcher or have a malfunctioning satellite ?
Definitely, but just on Thursday after the GSLV launch, Kiran Kumar or some other ISRO spokesman, said Astrosat will be launched at the end of September. What could have occurred in just 4 days?
A lot can happen in 4 days! Remember launching a payloadvis asequential event and even one minor thing out of sync can delay it and launch windows don't open up at our wish.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

prasannasimha wrote:Are they really "frangible tiles" I could not find that out on Google. I thought that they were condensate on the CUS stage that fell off as icy shards when it was launching. You see the same on Apollo launch videos.
Normally that is true. But, I think when thermal shrouds are used, as in this case (I have not seen them used before by ISRO), the shrouds conceal some kind of tiles inside and the shroud falls off at the time of launch dispersing these tiles.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by gakakkad »

vayu tuvan wrote:Gakakkad: they charge, what, 250k, for a reservation on space tours, right? Charge 50k and develop immersive virtual reality - hardware and software. Safer for the potential tourists. Demand will be 100x. Other than a handful how many uber rich would take a chance of not getting back in one piece? They will pay for the whole family and even gift it to near and dear, friends if it is virtual reality. Costs can be tamped down. Of course new footage needs to constantly produced but that can be done through unmanned missions.
there would be no problem of the demand side...considering the fact that presidential suites in some hotels costs USD 20K a night...this is the next step onlee..

BTW someone posted an interesting video about electric propulsion increasing pay load capacity...
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_23694 »

http://www.isro.gov.in/gslv-saga

The next mission, designated as GSLV-F05, is targeted for launch in July 2016 and will carry the 2200 kg INSAT-3DR meteorological satellite. GSLV-F09 is planned in May 2017 to launch the GSAT-9 satellite [as per wiki 2,330 kilograms ]

So already moving from 1980 kg to 2330 kg
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

SSridhar wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:Are they really "frangible tiles" I could not find that out on Google. I thought that they were condensate on the CUS stage that fell off as icy shards when it was launching. You see the same on Apollo launch videos.
Normally that is true. But, I think when thermal shrouds are used, as in this case (I have not seen them used before by ISRO), the shrouds conceal some kind of tiles inside and the shroud falls off at the time of launch dispersing these tiles.
I went frame by frame and examined the video the things falling off were not from the shroud but from the first stage.Wonder what that is. Also saw the PSLV DMC3 mission and even the PSLV has these iridescent rectangular pieces falling off during launch so it cannot be related to the CUS stage and all of them seem to be falling off from the first stage.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

After the third orbit raising operation of GSAT-6, realised orbit is: perigee height - 35634 km, apogee height - 35681 km, inclination 1.17 degree. Present longitude is 78 deg & satellite is drifting towards station of 83 degree.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by nirav »

prasannasimha wrote:We keep blaming DD for poor coverage but have a look at this and then we can understand that whatever - DD is still required for such coverage.
In fact there was an open invitation on the ISRO website tfor reporters to come and register to cover the launch.


http://forbesindia.com/blog/technology/ ... -and-isro/

Only one national English news channel apart from Doordarshan sent its crew to cover the launch of GSLV-D6 at Sriharikota on August 27. The others, preoccupied with the Sheena Bora murder story and the plot surrounding the sordid case, even relegated the news of the successful launch to the ticker.
DD seemingly has exclusive right for these launches. I did see the media registration link on ISRO site, but I think its only for reporters and their video reports post event and not for taking videos from the vantage points that are offerred to DD.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSSalvi »

prasannasimha wrote:Are they really "frangible tiles" I could not find that out on Google. I thought that they were condensate on the CUS stage that fell off as icy shards when it was launching. You see the same on Apollo launch videos.
Prasannasimhaji, Checked earlier posts but I could not find what your comment refers to.

Even in GSLV D6 launch video I could not see any fragments falling off.

One of the earlier PSLV flight was stopped/postponed for a day at the last moment when they detected 2nd stage was getting affected by atmospheric temperature and so a very simple jugaad was played - they just covered second stage with a thermocole like material and tied it over with rope ( literally ).

This was to isolate the stage from direct atmosphere contact.

As soon as the rocket lifted off the covering was seen tearing off and breaking into flying pieces.

A similar thing was observed in a few other pslv launches also.

I don't know if a similar thing was done in GSLV also ( anyway it has a liquid second stage ).
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSSalvi »

nirav wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:We keep blaming DD for poor coverage but have a look at this and then we can understand that whatever - DD is still required for such coverage.
In fact there was an open invitation on the ISRO website tfor reporters to come and register to cover the launch.


http://forbesindia.com/blog/technology/ ... -and-isro/

Only one national English news channel apart from Doordarshan sent its crew to cover the launch of GSLV-D6 at Sriharikota on August 27. The others, preoccupied with the Sheena Bora murder story and the plot surrounding the sordid case, even relegated the news of the successful launch to the ticker.
DD seemingly has exclusive right for these launches. I did see the media registration link on ISRO site, but I think its only for reporters and their video reports post event and not for taking videos from the vantage points that are offerred to DD.
1. The invitation was very well publicized ( on ISRO website and also on their Facebook page ).

2. Due to protocol ( not for security but for safety ) no one is allowed near pad .. the cameras covering rocket from near are permanently mounted for technical monitoring rather than for news. ( you can notice the change in camera for thermal monitoring just a few seconds before liftoff ).

Subsequent flight is monitored with thermal/optical autotracking camera ( notice the flame is is always in the center of field and camera moving in steps .. not by human hand ).

I doubt if the newsmen are even observing from open ground so they covering launch video is impossible.
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