Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 07 Sep 2016 20:26

Alloy Steels Plant produces cheaper alternative to steel used in Agni missile
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 Sep 2016 21:53

Wasn't this grade of steel used in the first generation slv-3's? What degree of indigenization existed before?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 07 Sep 2016 22:04

Why steel? I thought all the Agni and K series missiles should move to composites to reduce dead weight?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Sep 2016 10:25

I think even A-4/A-5 first stage is still steel and in the short term we need to ramp up numbers of A-1's and A-III's before gettting enough A-6's. Given the way Pakistan is thinking like Ghori and Ghazni and China helping them in very way possible, we need as big a detterence aas possible spread over a geographically wide area that a first strike by any of these two should guarantee destruction of a sigficant % of thier population

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 08 Sep 2016 11:17

Why A-I or A-3? Prithvi is enough for crapistan. They will not survive a full salvo of Prithvi-I and II. Not to mention brahmos. A-I should be replaced with more versatile cannisterized shaurya and A-3 should be replaced by cannisterized A-5 and A-II with A-4. A-4 pretty much takes care of the lizard and they know it, but MIRV capability in A-5 would be ideal for total annihilation of adversary.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Sep 2016 08:21

Karan M wrote:
Kanson wrote:^ Yes true but what is there to be cautious to acknowledge what is indeed a truly a great achievement? Do likes and dislikes of the service debunks the technological achievement?

^ indranilroy, lets wait and see.
Kanson, the challenge is that
a) some tests were successful,
soon becomes
b ) India has arrived, everything is great
to
c) IAF is not inducting, why? must be corruption, this, that
to
d) Idiots in Indian scientific establishment who tricked all of us and didn't do anything but told us everything was great.

you can see the same attitude on this forum repeatedly itself. over raised expectations, then cursing Indian users & developers one after the other.

Actually, the issue is of unrealistic PR by media and raised expectations in average person. DRDO itself is markedly cautious and only detailing progress, we'll know where that progress is once the systems go into trials and production commences.

So my caution. Lets wait and watch.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and while I am very hopeful these systems will be a game changer for AF (since they are available in plenty and will be supported locally), they have to clear user trials and then be mass produced. Last is not such an issue I feel, user trials in a range of conditions will take time (plus usual changes that follow).

Karan M, with all due respect, what you are saying as reasons to be cautious has nothing specific to Winged glide tech that I applauded.
These reasons can be mentioned for any projects not only to Defense but anything.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Sep 2016 10:26

deleted

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Sep 2016 14:13

I think that we have covered most of the missile areas except:-

WVR AAM
MANPADS & SHORADS
Mid range Air to Surface missiles equivalent of KH-25,29,38

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Sep 2016 20:49

Joint Indo-Israeli missile tests from tomorrow

The DRDO is readying to conduct a series of tests of Indo-Israeli joint venture Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) from a defence base off the Odisha coast from Tuesday.

At least five tests of the MRSAM, jointly developed by Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat (RCI) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) of Israel, have been planned from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea.
...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2016 21:28

Kanson wrote:Karan M, with all due respect, what you are saying as reasons to be cautious has nothing specific to Winged glide tech that I applauded.
These reasons can be mentioned for any projects not only to Defense but anything.

My point is you were stating that the same reasons apply to winged glide PGM tech in india. It hasn't matured, until, its inducted. Of course, you have the right to maintain it has.
Same for all the PGMs. A long way to go, perhaps. Fingers crossed they all cross the relevant hurdles. Including Astra etc as AAMs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2016 22:41

Guys I want to ask an honest question.
As far as I know all of you are civilians not connected to these programs.
Yet why are you so vehement that you know more than the other guy and go postal?

Why not take the info as just another data point to add to your knowledge of facts or discard it.
No lamba choda rebuttals please.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2016 23:03

who went postal?
just saying we have a ways to go before we reach the desired state. would be glad to be incorrect & overnight inductions to happen w/PGMs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2016 23:22

Gyan wrote:I think that we have covered most of the missile areas except:-

WVR AAM
MANPADS & SHORADS
Mid range Air to Surface missiles equivalent of KH-25,29,38

An old list, may need to be updated..

SSMs
Prithvi, 100-250km range, liquid fuelled
• Prithvi -1/2/3 - all in service
• Naval variant: Dhanush, 350km- Navy - in service

Agni: Have MaRVs, MIRV & countermeasures in development
• 1/2/3 - in production
• 4/5 - development, trials successful, 4000km and 5000 km versions respectively

K-series/SLBM
• SLBM/B-05: 700 Km range, developed, waiting for Arihant
• Shaurya: Land version, being tweaked for Army
• Next steps, 1500 & 3000 km versions

Prahaar/Strike SSM:
• 150 km, 200 kg warhead missile to "bridge the gap" between the conventional Pinaka MRLS at 40 km range, to the Prithvi which has a range of 250km to 300 km. Being tweaked for the Army, and awaiting formal Army indent. Stated to have datalinked guidance and will hence be more cost effective/precise than "dumb" missiles. Six missiles can be launched at different targets. Developed from the AAD design of the BMD program.

Brahmos:
• Blocks1/2/3 all developed. Block 3 for Navy & Army allows top attack & seeker discrimination of specific targets. In production.
• AF: Development underway; IAF wants 200+ missiles for 40+ Su-30 MKI. Two trials aircraft sent for modification.
• Brahmos 2: In development with Russia for hypersonic Brahmos.

Nuclear deterrent:
• ALA: Air Launched Article, 200km, nuclear missile for Su-30 force. In development

Cruise Missiles:
• LRCM: Ramjet equipped long range cruise missile for all three services, in development, 700km-1000 km range
• Nirbhay: Subsonic, stealthy 750km+ missile for all three services, project has seen only 3 visible trials.

BMD:
• Phase 1: PAD & AAD ready for deployment
• PDV trialed this year & will replace PAD for next batch of Phase 1 BMD deployment
• More trials expected to transition Phase 1 BMD to PDV/AAD combination
• Phase 2: For Target Missiles > 2000 km class, in development. AD-1 and AD-2, hypersonic missiles

ATGM/ General purpose:
Nag
• Army land version version under refinement, 4 km range. Block1 seeker in production at BDL but as a test item, Block 2 developed for better performance in Indian deserts @ afternoon.
• Helicopter version @7km, called HELINA, in development.
• Further variants for fixed wing strike aircraft under development. RF seeker trialed in 2011-12, presumably for this.
SAMHO/CLGM
• Semiactive laser guided missile similar to the LAHAT. Intended for launch by both ground launchers and tanks. In advanced development, probably in trials as prototypes have been displayed already for couple of years now. Finally, alternative available to Milan/Konkurs as well.
•Manportable ATGM program launched with BDL; MOU signed

AF specific programs
• ARM: New program announced in 2012; single stage, liquid fuelled with 100 km range (similar to Kh-31P?). Later reports suggest solid fuelled, dual propulsion, likely LRSAM based tech.
•Astra Mk1: In final trials. 2017-18 expected for Mk1 to be finalized. Formal AF indent awaited. 80km R-77 class missile.
Astra Mk2: 100km+ range, dual propulsion (LRSAM tech).
• Name unknown: Missile with multiple precision guided warheads, range of 200 km for platform. UAVs variants also being explored to "launch PGMs" and then be recovered for cost effectiveness. Tech demo in 2013, with tests of a configured missile in 2015-16.
• Name unknown: Light antiship missile for naval helicopters: In development, unknown if a formal program is being launched.
•SFDR: Meteor type ramjet based AAM in development
• HSTDV: Hypersonic Tech demo program to develop indigenous hypersonic capability independent from Brahmos program, flight trials to begin soon

SAMs:
• SRSAM: Deal with MBDA for codevelopment yet to be signed; reports note range is now 20 km and GOI clearance awaited. Trishul development complete but system wont be inducted
• LRSAM/MRSAM with Israel: 70km being developed; due this year
100 km + ER versions not confirmed. Basic range > 70km originally planned for LRSAM naval variant.
• Akash: MK1 development complete, in production (8 Sq for AF, two regiments for Army); MK2 variant being developed, program sanctioned.
• New SAM: Either LRSAM/MRSAM variant or new design, with range of 150km. May be on hold due to S-400 program/acquisition.
• QRSAM: 30km range, mobile, for IA. Track on move capability. Fire from halt. X band AESA based radar, RF seeker based missile (Astra?)

MLRS:
• Pinaka Mk1: 40km, developed and in production, teething issues with ramping up numbers being resolved. OFB production hassle.
• Pinaka MK2: 60 KM range, trials.

On related note:
Other PGMs:
• LGB: Sudarshan MK1 in production for AF. An inexpensive source of LGBs for the IAF. But faced stability/rolling issues & discontinued for Mk2
• Sudarshan MK2 with INS/satnav in development
• Also, a guided bomb of 40 km range noted in 2012. Garuda and Garuthma programs. Winged (100km range) and non winged (30-40km range)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Sep 2016 23:29

Gyan - there is a common theme to all the specific items you mentioned:

WVR AAM
MANPADS & SHORADS
Mid range Air to Surface missiles equivalent of KH-25,29,38

EO seekers.

IMHO Helina success with "new" seeker & ready access to IIR matrix for these seekers will be crucial. I suspect if we run up against imports of french/israeli gear en masse, then these will also suddenly become available only in limited quantities..

Having said that Maverick/Igla etc all got into service with more basic gear, if we don't push for state of the art, we can actually produce these items.. only thing is it has to strike, and not be a dud, like some of our other imported gear.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2016 00:04

Kakarat wrote:Joint Indo-Israeli missile tests from tomorrow

The DRDO is readying to conduct a series of tests of Indo-Israeli joint venture Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) from a defence base off the Odisha coast from Tuesday.

At least five tests of the MRSAM, jointly developed by Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat (RCI) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) of Israel, have been planned from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea.
...

Basically AF version. Means IAI radar is ready & deployed, integrated with Tata/DRDO C3I center.. this looks very much like what we have in the original pic released by Tarmak

The Tarmak pic and this one show the LB-MFSTAR radar as (visually) looking very similar to the EL/M-2084 purchased by IAF.

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L9O7kRlRFbI/ ... AF%2B3.jpg[.img]

Some basic details on LB-MFSTAR
http://www.iai.co.il/Shared/UserControl ... ocid=39661

The LB-MF-STAR, produced by ELTA Systems Ltd., IAI's group and wholly owned subsidiary, supports air defense missions and guides AMD weapon systems. It can deliver an accurate, high quality arena situation picture and extract low Radar Cross Section (RCS) targets even in the toughest environmental conditions. The LB-MF-STAR is a digital Active Electronic Steering Array (AESA) Radar System which incorporates new, advanced technologies and includes one rotating S-band Phased Array Antenna.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2016 00:06

Ok found a video of the entire radar and missile system

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AevsQ1IatSM

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2016 00:11

Note this is a 360 degree system with VLS launcher. Does not need to be slewed in one direction. Effectively 70km (actually 90km if Navy details are applied) bubble around vital area. If an AF base is around 30 sq kms, thats a radius of 3km, dia of 6km (it won't be a circle but just for purposes of back of the envelope estimation).

Big step up for AF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2016 00:13

Jai Ho DRDL pulse motor.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/09/ ... range.html

EXCLUSIVE: Indo-Israeli LRSAM Range Extended By A Third

The Indo-Israeli LRSAM/Barak-8 began its first hot trials with the Israeli Navy in May this year. In what could be the single most significant development in the weapon system’s long-drawn journey, the Indian Navy has confirmed to Livefist that the LRSAM will sport an operational range a third higher than initially agreed upon. In effect, the LRSAM’s range now moves from 70-km to in excess of 90-km or higher. Range upgrade discussions took place in November last year following a land test in Israel.

IAI and India’s DRDO missile cluster (led by the DRDL) that have jointly developed the missile system, designated the Barak 8 for Israel and yet to be officially named in India, have begun work on boosting weapon range.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Sep 2016 00:39

Karan M wrote:Jai Ho DRDL pulse motor.

This bodes well for Astra Mk2 as well.

But the propellants are different from the Barak-8. The first stage of Barak 8 does not seem to be smokeless.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Sep 2016 11:00

Karan M wrote:Note this is a 360 degree system with VLS launcher. Does not need to be slewed in one direction. Effectively 70km (actually 90km if Navy details are applied) bubble around vital area. If an AF base is around 30 sq kms, thats a radius of 3km, dia of 6km (it won't be a circle but just for purposes of back of the envelope estimation).

Big step up for AF.

This LB-MF-STAR looks similar to the Arudhra (EL/M-2084) which the IAF is inducting in large numbers.

Pic from induction ceremony:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ind ... d115089013

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Sep 2016 00:10

Yes rohit - looks the same. IMHO very smart move by the IAF if its variant of same system, will simplify logistics and maintenance.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Sep 2016 00:30

Rout is reporting on twitter that two flight tests have been carried out successfully.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Sep 2016 12:39

India sucessfully test fires long range surface-to-air missile

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Sep 2016 15:24

Any details of the specific Indian inputs into the Barak, the surface to air missile?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Sep 2016 22:33

Updates from Hemant Rout on Twitter (chronology is bottom to up).

Three tests of Indo-Israeli LRSAM by #DRDO in two days successful. Two more tests likely in next two days. #Odisha @NewIndianXpress

Indo-Israeli long range surface-to-air missile test fired in a different altitude from an #Odisha test facility. #DRDO @NewIndianXpress

Indo-Israeli long range surface-to-air #missile successfully hits pilot less target aircraft, claim #DRDO sources. @NewIndianXpress

#India conducts second test of Indo-Israeli LRSAM from its Odisha based test facility at 2.30 pm. @NewIndianXpress

#India test fires long range surface-to-air #missile (LRSAM) targeting an UAV to gauge killing efficiency of the system. @NewIndianXpress

#Indo-Israeli surface-to-air #missile launched from Chandipur based test facility targeting an unmanned aerial vehicle. @NewIndianXpress

#DRDO test fires Indo-Israeli surface-to-air #missile from a defence test facility off the Odisha coast at 10.15 am. @NewIndianXpress

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Sep 2016 22:46

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Any details of the specific Indian inputs into the Barak, the surface to air missile?

AF MRSAM & Navy LRSAM both
Varoon - missile actuation, vanes, pulse motor.

AF MRSAM
C3I system from Tata ASL w/DRDL. Radar cooling system. Missile launchers including communication links.

For Navy LRSAM still digging up details..

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 21 Sep 2016 23:52

Whats up with A-5 canister test? Its long overdue. Time to send a message to paki sponsors.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Sep 2016 00:36

January, 2015

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 22 Sep 2016 00:46

Thats old one. There was supposed to me one more in 2016. Actually has it been inducted? It has finished 3 successful trials already.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 22 Sep 2016 00:48

should have been re-tested after the uri incident.Pakistan only behaves like this thanks to the PRC

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Sep 2016 11:34

Karan M wrote:Yes rohit - looks the same. IMHO very smart move by the IAF if its variant of same system, will simplify logistics and maintenance.

BTW - shit-load happening on the radar coverage and C3I front. I don't know how PAF is ever going to enter Indian airspace by 2020!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 22 Sep 2016 18:54

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote:Yes rohit - looks the same. IMHO very smart move by the IAF if its variant of same system, will simplify logistics and maintenance.
BTW - shit-load happening on the radar coverage and C3I front. I don't know how PAF is ever going to enter Indian airspace by 2020!

Cheers to that Rohit. IAF is getting into NetWork centric ops in a big way.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Sep 2016 21:09

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/us- ... -agreement

NEW DELHI – Negotiations are "nearly completed" for the United States and India to jointly produce the Javelin Anti-Tank Guided Missile, according to an Indian Ministry of Defense source.

The two countries have been exploring for several years potential teaming arrangements for certain weapons and equipment, thereby elevating the Indo-US defense relationship to a higher level.

"With US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter being a strong sponsor of the Javelin program for India, there is a possibility of an approval by Washington,” says Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army Brigadier and defense analyst.

Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division (SED), a Tata Group company, already has formalized a relationship with US based Javelin Joint Ventures with the aim of creating a strategy to co-develop and produce the javelin missile system.
"Letter of Intent [LoI] has been signed for co-development and co-production (of Javelin) in India between Tata Power SED and the Javelin Joint Ventures (JJV)," says Rahul Chaudhry, CEO , Tata Power SED.

Co-production is for the advanced generation of Javelin ATGM. The deal would cover the “FGM -148 Javelin, which is also being inducted into US forces from JJV factories in the US," Chaudhry added.

"While pricing could remain an issue, this would not prevent Tata Power SED being a sourcing agency for components of Javelin being sold globally by the US manufacturing duo Lockheed Martin and Raytheon," Bhonsle added.

The Americans have so far been reluctant to part with the latest generation of technology for Javelin, but the MoD source said Washington has now agreed to part with new-generation Javelin for co-production in India.

In 2010, India had come very close to purchasing the Javelin weapon, which has range of 2.5 kilometers, through the Foreign Military Sales route, but the US refused to transfer technology for the system and the proposal ultimately fell through.

In 2014 MoD selected Israeli Spike ATGM but the deal has still not been inked because the price negotiating committee of the MoD has not agreed to the terms and conditions of price and maintenance costs from Rafael of Israel. However, the Spike deal remains alive, the MoD source said.

The demand by the Indian army for variety of anti-tank guided missiles is large as it wants to equip all its 382 infantry battalions and 44 mechanized infantry units with new-generation weapons and replace the second- generation French-made Milan missile.

"Indian Army needs over 20,000 hand held new generation ATGMs," a senior Indian army official said.

Besides, India's home-grown Nag ATGM, which is vehicle- mounted, is also in advanced stages of testing.

"The Javelin will not hit either the home-grown Nag or the Israeli Spike program, as there is room for all these ATGMs," the MoD source added.

Bhonsle said," There will be a time lag between induction of an Indo-American Javelin, thus Spike will remain on the acquisition book, Nag remains a technology demonstrator so far and unless it is proved in operational trials will not be a serious future contender."

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Sep 2016 09:58

deejay wrote: Cheers to that Rohit. IAF is getting into NetWork centric ops in a big way.

Well, you should know

But basis some recent discussions, I must credit the IAF for the way they leverage technology. And are willing to make changes to their organizational structure once they realize that technology has made some things redundant.

Yes, some absolutely fantastic things are happening because of the infra being put in place for Network centric Ops. And this is not limited to IAF only. But IA as well. And best thing is that everyone is now talking to everyone. No more silos.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 23 Sep 2016 22:50

Regarding LRSAM wikipedia states that its maximum speed is only mach 2. I mean its hardly enough to keep up with a fighter on afterburner. Does it make sense? Experts, please clarify.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Sep 2016 22:57

I wondered this before, Aster 30 missiles for instance are Mach 4.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Sep 2016 14:50

darshhan wrote:Regarding LRSAM wikipedia states that its maximum speed is only mach 2. I mean its hardly enough to keep up with a fighter on afterburner. Does it make sense? Experts, please clarify.

The information released is that LRSAM max speed is Mach 2+. Note the +

Here is the manufacturer brochure http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/4/40344.pdf

Note "severe saturation" and "supersonic sea skimmer to high altitude".

Normal missiles are fired in salvoes of 2 for better kill probability. Single LRSAM suffices. In multiple IN test firings of older Barak 1 against in-service anti ship missiles, the first missile hit the target everytime and the second missile hit the debris.

With MR SAM for high performance targets (missiles) and Akash for low performance targets (F-16, JF-17) and MANPADS, the ADGE is complete,

For BMD, S-400 can buy time until PAD/AAD mature.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2016 16:47

Shot doctrine is always determined by the target and launch conditions and is therefore highly dependent on dynamic factors that occur during an engagement. Hence it varies whether you are engaging a Mach 1.5 capable fighter operating at medium to low altitudes, a mach 2 sea skimming cruise missile or a short range ballistic missile that could potentially be carrying a highly lethal warhead. There are many instances where established shot doctrine calls for a ripple fire even with the best interceptors out there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Sep 2016 17:07

darshhan wrote:Regarding LRSAM wikipedia states that its maximum speed is only mach 2. I mean its hardly enough to keep up with a fighter on afterburner. Does it make sense? Experts, please clarify.

If a fighter is already retreating with afterburner on - the missile will not catch up. But typically it is an approaching fighter at maybe Mach 0.8. The missile rapidly accelerates to Mach 2 and by the time the missile is detected the fighter does not have the time to turn and accelerate to Mach 1 plus. For an approaching aircraft - the speed at which the plane and missile close in on each other will be over Mach 2.5 and turning or climbing will only slow down any (all) fighters. That is why kill distances vary whether it is tail chase or head on

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Sep 2016 18:38

One also needs to factor the duration of supersonic flight. Most people incorrectly think fighters fly at Mach 2 throughout the duration of flight.

In reality, most fighter aircraft supersonic flight duration is a few minutes, due to rapid fuel consumption that can prevent returning home and decrease in engine and airframe life.

Also, manoeuvrability relatively decreases at supersonic speeds vis-a-vis transonic speeds because of the higher aerodynamic forces that control surfaces must deal with.

MiG-21 and F-16 are Mach 2 capable, while modern fighters like F-35 & Tejas have top speeds of Mach 1.6-Mach 1.8 by deliberate design

Missiles can sustain their top speeds longer than aircraft.

LRSAM has a Made in India dual pulse motor for added end-game energy.