Indo-UK: News & Discussion

[sunnyP]

asprinzl,

I have personally known about 5 moslems who have abandoned islam.
I have been "intimately" (if you know what I mean) aquanted with 2 moslem girls, the women are the weakness of islam, because they know the reality of it for women.
One tried to convert me, saying she would rather marry a non pak/moslem and convert them to islam. To which my reply was, "but would they not end up being all she find bad about islam.
The other was quite open in her contempt for islam.

Because of the social sanctions against those who leave the faith, most apostates just keep quite about it.
They may appear moslem on the outside, but they can hide what is in their hearts.

Exactly, and this is why they do not make it public:

Maldivian renounces Islam, gets attacked by Zakir Naik audience

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/english/details/30855

[bart]

Check out the latest blog post from the pompous and patronizing India correspondent of the Daily Telegraph:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/deann ... lth-games/

His article is patronizing and dismissive enough, but check out the comments. Why do we even want to be part of this commonwealth rubbish and leave ourselves open to being snubbed and insulted like that? As far as I understand the commonwealth serves no purpose other than stoking the ego of the British, and putting a nice spin on the holocaust perpetrated on the colonies by British imperialists. I would prefer so much if we could just ignore them, would cost us less and show them their rightful (in)significance in the modern scheme of things.

[joshvajohn]

New £16m Hindu temple opens in Wembley
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10196332.stm

[Carl_T]

The problem with Zakir Naik types is that even educated Muslims think he is logical. And his quoting Indian scripts making these idiots to go gung-ho.

Unfortunately the likes of Pt. Ravisankar types (gentle creatures) are no match for Zakir Hussains of this world. I wish the Nayakuddins of this world (there are many) take on Zakir Naik on live TV so that he is put to rest for good.

I knew it! Jihadi scum.

[Carl_T]

I have seen countless testimonies of Hindus converting into Islam thanks to Zakir Naik's TV evangelization. Are there any Hindu religious network that caters to converting Muslims into Hinduism?
AS

Are there Israeli/Western orgs that work on converting Arabs to Christianity? Promotion and financing of Christian groups in Arab countries, (since outright conversion a no go) starting with Lebanon should be the priority of Christian groups in the west rather than converting pagans in the Northeast and other parts of India.

[Carl_T]

I have seen countless testimonies of Hindus converting into Islam thanks to Zakir Naik's TV evangelization. Are there any Hindu religious network that caters to converting Muslims into Hinduism?
AS

1) Pl provide source of the above "hindus converting to islam", especially due to zakir naik's TV evangelization.

2) Hindus dont convert others non-hindus - this may be another definition of hinduism.

Conversion is strict no-no and it is not encouraged. There are few institutions though who may welcome people of other faiths and these people may eventually become hindus.

This is not historically true, in India an example would be Manipur.

[Carl_T]

I heard Ali Sina was going to have a debate with Montazeri a few years ago, did that ever take place?

From http://www.faithfreedom.org/672

You may also want to tell him that I have had debates with more important personalities than him such as Grand Ayatollah Montazeri and others, These debates are posted in the debates page of my site. Not a single person has won the debates with me, not because I am a highly skilled debater, but because I debate from the position of strength. It is easy to win when you speak the truth and your opponent does not.

I havent actually found that debate though

Yes a debate with Montazeri would have been a very interesting debate indeed and much better than the $h*t Zakir Naik comes up with.

[ArmenT]

You know things are going to hell in a handbasket when a certain elderly lady who's never worked a day in her life is demanding a pay raise.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... udget.html

[hnair]

Zakir Naik has a pan islamist following in the UQ, he is the true "South Asian" Zaid Zaman Hamid (PBUH).
even the Dalladeshis are in awe of ZN's skills as an orator, while in truth the only thing he does is shout at the top of his voice a full speed without giving people time to digest the nonsense he spouts.
I heard from a guy who studied in the same institution as ZN that he didn't start off as a rabid venom spewing religious nut, instead he seemed to be well read and informed person with respect for other faiths, it is only after the Wahabis started to fund him that he started to come out of his Taqqiya mode and show his true colours.
One can judge from some of his old videos that he has had an image makeover, for example those ill-fitting suits that made him look like a scare-crow have been replaced with Short-cut Azizesque TFTA Armani suits.
Having said that why deprive people in UQ of his "verse no 9211, para no 12, line no 420 " entertainment

Personally, I like Zakir Naik's effect on others, more than his effect on me. So there is room for "untergrunt" Chankian things to be done there. Especially note the bold parts about BDesh-wallahs and Pakis. Even a TFTA Zaid Hamid feels mijjile inadequate before this SDRE. And why should I not laugh at that sight?

IMO, if we stifle these types, we are falling into a gora trap of "You need to fix your own guys, he is equating Bush with bin Laden" and making us an internal enemy of ZN, where none exists right now. Instead, we need to encourage such characters to not just stick to India and start their global evangelical channels. Eg: start off some channels that are beamed into the Ummah Heartlands with messages of "True Biraderhood" and "True Peace', sparsed with qawwali and a dash of hot Oppana sauce. Enough commoners (particularly women, as Haresh pointed out) are willing to listen. And even better, let him start beaming into the Nation of Islam territory in Massaland. We dont have a presence at all amongst the African-American community. Let him relieve his gas on Vedas, thinking he is stinking up Indian religions. It does not matter to the Gods who smile with half-closed eyes from the ancient temples of India. But that will improve his street cred amongst the adbuls of the world. Plus he will earn 10 times more money than he will ever make in India alone. Someone should point it out to him. Win win for all sides: he gets his place a New Mecca status in India, we agree not to shut him down over some technicality. From Mullaha Mahd-e-dra's friend, he seems smart.

He, Arundhati Roy etc seem to get under the skins of goras of all political leanings. Much more than a Modi ever did. Of course, I am not talking about crazy Left hippie types (a very tiny fraction of liberals). In fact I make it a point to inflame gora-heavy mailing lists with urls of ZN's speeches ARoy's writings, innocently saying "s/he has a point" or a "Do not shoot the messenger" type one-liners.. My favorite is "We still have a long way to go".

I think it is time to control such fission initiators for, er, "peaceful purposes". I fully support ZN trip to UK, better still he should be sponsored a trip to Massaland, Canada and Oz. The more he is out of India and on the road, the better. Heck, if he is really good, we might even get those C17s at MUNNA rates, with the SD/Pentagon telling Congress that India "need those to transport ZN back to India"

[krisna]

I heard Ali Sina was going to have a debate with Montazeri a few years ago, did that ever take place?

From http://www.faithfreedom.org/672

You may also want to tell him that I have had debates with more important personalities than him such as Grand Ayatollah Montazeri and others, These debates are posted in the debates page of my site. Not a single person has won the debates with me, not because I am a highly skilled debater, but because I debate from the position of strength. It is easy to win when you speak the truth and your opponent does not.

I havent actually found that debate though

debate between Ali Sina and Montazeri in 5 parts.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/?s=montazeri&x=12&y=7
http://www.faithfreedom.org/761?q=debat ... azeri1.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/762
http://www.faithfreedom.org/763
http://www.faithfreedom.org/764
http://www.faithfreedom.org/765

http://www.faithfreedom.org/10554 May 2010

Readers have been fortunate to get a rare chance of reading a written debate between an Iranian Mullah Ayatollah Montazeri and Dr. Ali Sina an Iranian progressive intellectual. The debate discussion was focused on some historical true stories directly related to our compassionate and merciful Prophet of Islam. These important stories were generated and recorded about some 7th century happenings during the early propagation of Religion Islam. These happenings disclosed so much human cruelties that it is unfathomable to understand to many including myself. After I read this debate completely, I could not sleep several nights, and still today I awake up with bad dream and after that I could not sleep.

[Carl_T]

Great thanks a lot.

[Rony]

Back to Indo-UK relations, here is a narrative by a british journalist about his understanding of the Indian anglophone elite

Why on earth is the Queen scheduled to miss India's Commonwealth Games?

It’s hard to exaggerate the psychological importance of British approval in India. Our role as a colonial power, in creating a vast elite class of English speakers, of movers and shakers who grew up on Shakespeare, Dickens and Jane Austen, has given Britain a disproportionate space in the heads of most educated Indians.

Many Indians wish it were not so, and believe India will have matured only when it sheds its psychological dependency on Britain’s approval. But as David Cameron has identified, it is a fact which could be used to our advantage if we show India today the respect it deserves. It is the respect we show which determines if our legacy of empire is seen as colonial baggage or “shared history”.

[Singha]

the commonwealth games should be cancelled on security grounds. having built up the physical infra in transport, venues, airports etc these will benefit citizens. there is no further point in spending 100s of crores on additional security to actually hold the games.

india poor, india unsafe, india cow dung, india terrorist - cancel the games now.

[abhischekcc]

You know, I am ambivalent about the CWG. Part of me ants these games to be the disaster they are going to be just so that the shitty little dunasty and its chief-poodle in waiting can be shown for the incompetent buffoons that they are.

[lsunil]

This is not historically true, in India an example would be Manipur.

Carly boy, there is no such thing as hinduism. The only conversion happening here is the spread of indic culture. Now, surely you cannot compare this with the evangelism activities of "those two"?

[Lalmohan]

historically, many of the smaller nations liked the idea of the commonwealth because it gave them a global forum, queenie was an interesting side-show for a hot air shop, but there is potential within the group to enhance an India support group, something that might come in handy during UN resolution votes, etc.

the CofG of the commonwealth could very easily be shifted to be India-centric... something to think about

[bart]

historically, many of the smaller nations liked the idea of the commonwealth because it gave them a global forum, queenie was an interesting side-show for a hot air shop, but there is potential within the group to enhance an India support group, something that might come in handy during UN resolution votes, etc.

the CofG of the commonwealth could very easily be shifted to be India-centric... something to think about

I dont think it can, not unless we purge and get rid of any signs of britishness from the commonwealth, for example the practice of giving a rats ass about the queen and other 'royals', which wont be possible or at least not be worth the trouble.

I dont think even small countries and banana republics give a damm about the commonwealth these days, the only people interested are the 'anglosphere' proponents, and countries established by genocide of natives by whites like Australia and Canada where the white folks there cling on the the monarchy for the fig leaf of cultural heritage that it offers them.

[shukla]

India wants UK to return Kohinoor, other artifacts

The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has joined an international network for the return of priceless artifacts taken away during British rule, including the Kohinoor diamond and the Sultanganj Buddha. ASI Director-General Gautam Sengupta said the list of India's treasures held abroad was "too long to handle" and there was a need for a "diplomatic and legal campaign" for their restitution from institutions, including the British Museum, the Royal Collection and the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery.

Speaking to The Independent, Sengupta said that after decades of unsuccessful unilateral lobbying, India was looking to join a campaign with the support of UNESCO, and other countries with longstanding complaints about the foreign ownership of their artistic riches, including Egypt and Greece. "As efforts so far to reclaim stolen treasures have proved futile, UNESCO support is required for launching an international campaign to achieve this end.

Cant believe we have to beg for things that truly belong to us.. And they actually can display what belongs to India's pride in their museums..

[Singha]

a strong section of academia and 'think tanks' sitting on prime property in delhi have educational and personal ties to UK. the hold of LSE/oxbridge among our media and academic windbag elites is not gone yet. they resent the rise of the new middle class india whose sons and daughters dont care a rats ass to put it crudely about 'culture' and 'breeding' and stiff upper lips and high tea on the green lawn and reading long texts on english grammar.

[Venkarl]

How will India get Peacock Throne from Tehran? UNESCO help?

[derkonig]

^^^
Wait till bakstan hears of this.

[Lalmohan]

Bart
I think times have changed. By the time William gets to the throne (Charles can be written off), Australia might already be a republic and Canada frankly has long severed its ties to the motherland. NZ is culturally closest but insignificant, RSA has a new black political identity that rejects the anglo-crown as much as it rejects the afrikaner heritage. Thats all the whites taken care of. The current generation in these countries has its own identity, they are no longer of the generations that migrated and do not have the same affinities with the UK. With the 'republicisation' of Australia, the British throne will have lost all remaining relevance, if indeed it needs to be further confirmed. The British already know this, Cameron's new policy is highly indicative of the future path. The new generations in the UK similarly have no attachments to the white colonies, except for as a means to escape their cold homeland being overrun by foreigners. Ofcourse, they have to qualify for visas and residency in the colonies now, which might come as a surprise to their grandparents.

The only place the empire seems to be alive and well is on BRF!

As for the 'black nations' - the vast majority are quite small countries with relatively low voices, but each has a UN vote - many will migrate into the Indo or Sino - sphere economically and politically. That is the next challenge.

The country to watch out for is Malaysia - tends to be outspoken and prone to islamist sympathy. AFAIK Pakistan is still expelled. A body like the commonwealth - largely irrelevant for decades due to the declining power of the UK and the non-emergence of India, could be a useful rallying point for a pro-Indian grouping of nations if managed properly

Singha - you are right, Indians do hanker after the manicured lawns of Oxford and tea with cucumber sandwiches, but that to me atleast, is a quaint cultural throwback and not a symbol of power. No doubt Queen Beatrice of Holland also throws nice garden parties... her sons's worked in regular companies before assuming royal duties. The scandinavian royals cycle to work, etc. Sooner or later, the British royal family (which has worked hard for decades to maintain its branding and earnings potential) is also headed the same way as people lose interest.

[Venkarl]

^^^
Wait till bakstan hears of this.

why? will they say tail part or neck part belongs to them?

[Ameet]

Doctor shortage sees new recruitment drive in India

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10202803.stm

A shortage of junior doctors to start work in hospitals this August is forcing the NHS to try to recruit from India, the BBC has learned.

Tighter immigration rules introduced in recent years meant many overseas medics left Britain and returned home.

But the exodus, added to new European regulations limiting the hours of doctors, caused unfilled vacancies.

Attempts to recruit scores of Indian doctors foundered on a disagreement between government departments.

"We pulled the plug on overseas recruitment far too quickly," said Professor Derek Gallen, who is postgraduate dean of medical training for Wales.

"[We didn't] realise what the implications of that action would be two, three or four years down the line," he added.

[svinayak]

Bart
I think times have changed. By the time William gets to the throne (Charles can be written off), Australia might already be a republic and Canada frankly has long severed its ties to the motherland. NZ is culturally closest but insignificant, RSA has a new black political identity that rejects the anglo-crown as much as it rejects the afrikaner heritage. Thats all the whites taken care of. The current generation in these countries has its own identity, they are no longer of the generations that migrated and do not have the same affinities with the UK. With the 'republicisation' of Australia, the British throne will have lost all remaining relevance, if indeed it needs to be further confirmed. The British already know this, Cameron's new policy is highly indicative of the future path. The new generations in the UK similarly have no attachments to the white colonies, except for as a means to escape their cold homeland being overrun by foreigners. Ofcourse, they have to qualify for visas and residency in the colonies now, which might come as a surprise to their grandparents.

Superpost!

The only place the empire seems to be alive and well is on BRF!

English!

[sanjaykumar]

English is a supranational language now, thanks to American power. It will continue in influence as India energises its economy.

[Bhima]

English is the language of the British/Anglo Americans and more broadly Western/European/Caucasian peoples. When was the last time Indians laughed at British or Americans speaking English in their peculiar way? Although of Indian origin myself I can't help but laugh when I hear a strong Indian accent or indeed African/Chinese etc.

[sanjaykumar]

I beg to differ, English is my language. I think in English as do most of the members here, and I have been known to use it elegantly, if I may make that claim. I am sorry I cannot relinquish claim to it because I am not white.

And yes I do find Scottish brogue 'interesting' if not mirthful, I do find Strine contemptible and I do find Indian accents funny but only as an in joke; I would not find it amusing to hear others jeer at them.

[Sanjay M]

I too prefer English as my primary language of though and of expression.

I do enjoy Indian languages, especially Sanskrit's economical design.
But Hindi is just an attempt by Moghul slaves to mimic the Urdu spoken by their Moghul masters.

[Karan Dixit]

The picture they paint of UQ is this : It is a white dominated society which ridicules and exploits Muslims ( and other colored folks ) .

Sorry could not resist from asking. UK is going to be white dominated for a while, because they were the original inhabitants of the place. So what do the Muslims in UK want, every single white should paint their bodies in a darker shade and change their religion as well? And I have seen that there are non-whites who have stood for elections in parts of UK (and won too). If Muslims are feeling so sad in being in the UK, they still have Heathrow, Gatwick, Birmingham Airports open for traffic. All it requires is a ticket. When we are supporting these sort of ridiculous claims of the the RoP, we may be also giving unneccessary boost to "India is a Hindu dominated society which ridicules and exploits Muslims (and Dalits)" sort of arguments.

Your argument does not appeal to me because it attempts to establish a parallel between democratic and tolerant India and intolerant monarchy called UQ .

[Karan Dixit]

Karan,
...
My reply was "we do know our place, it's right between your wifes legs!"
...
He never bothered me again. I don't know if this is a Punjabi thing, or the fact that I have a crew cut and some might say a rather unhealthy obsession with press ups and CQB.
...

Well , your wit is definitely impressive .

On a separate note , in a civilized society one does not have to be a Punjabi or a gym rat with a crew cut to live a dignified life . It does not help a poor Muslim to know that he would have been fine had he acted like a tough Punjabi . In a civilized society like India , everyone gets to live a dignified life whether they are tough Punjabi or thin rice eating Bengali .

[Karan Dixit]

I am not aware of any such website . My view is based on reading and analyzing news from UQ . Also , I have talked to several Muslim ( and other colored ) folks who reside in UQ . The picture they paint of UQ is this : It is a white dominated society which ridicules and exploits Muslims ( and other colored folks ) .

Could you please give us some examples so we may better understand the opinion

I hate to beat the dead horse again and again . We have touched this topic several times on this forum . I myself have posted many many links documenting tales of discrimination , bigotry , violence and systematic disenfranchisement of Muslims in UQ . Those articles are hard to find because white dominated media loves to focus on the vices of us darkies only but still we were able to find several credible articles . My suggestion would be to just do a Google or try to go over the old posts in India - UQ thread and you will find many such articles .

[Yayavar]

I too prefer English as my primary language of though and of expression.

I do enjoy Indian languages, especially Sanskrit's economical design.

Yes, very impressive. What else do you enjoy about Sanskrit?

But Hindi is just an attempt by Moghul slaves to mimic the Urdu spoken by their Moghul masters.

[/quote]

The economy of your knowledge of Hindi is very impressive too.

On a serious note, why this self-denigration of an Indic language? Hindi (or its dialect) is older than Mughals. There is lot of rona-dhona in BRF that there are foreign words in Hindi (or other Indian languages) while it is all hunky-dory if the entire language is American .

[shyam]

On a serious note, why this self-denigration of an Indic language?

What makes you believe that he is an Indian?

[Rahul M]

>> But Hindi is just an attempt by Moghul slaves to mimic the Urdu spoken by their Moghul masters.

wow. there was this saying about not opening one's mouth .............

urdu comes from hindi and hindi in turn comes from prakrit, which is the source of most modern languages of northern India.

[Karan Dixit]

I too prefer English as my primary language of though and of expression.

I do enjoy Indian languages, especially Sanskrit's economical design.
But Hindi is just an attempt by Moghul slaves to mimic the Urdu spoken by their Moghul masters.

An absurd post !

[Carl_T]

Enjoy Sanskrit? You cannot be serious. How can you enjoy a language that has like 3 different past tenses...good reason it is a dead language.

[Karan Dixit]

Enjoy Sanskrit? You cannot be serious. How can you enjoy a language that has like 3 different past tenses...good reason it is a dead language.

Disagree . Sanskrit is not dead . It has a place in the world of generative linguistic . However , it is not suitable for daily dialogue because humans find context based grammar easier to learn as opposed to generative grammar . Therefore Sanskrit gave way to languages based on contextual grammars such as Hindi , Bengali , English , etc ; but they were all deeply rooted in Sanskrit .

( I am out of this thread for the time being . Too much non sense going on in here . )

[Carl_T]

I spoke in jest...

[sanjaykumar]

Hindi came from Khari Boli not directly from Prakrit.