Bharat Rakshak

MurthyB wrote:Heated India Pakistan Debate with Dr. Shashi Tharoor? (Sochta Pakistan, 7 Jan 2012)
Tharoor does a good job of keeping up his diplomats mask and never loses his cool, although one wishes he had given them a few more punches. All in all, he is on message, and in a bizarre role reversal, is the lone wolf standing with a grin while 3 little piggies ..er I mean pakis huff and puff and try to blow the wolf away (from Siachen for instance)

At a diplomatic level, Tharoor kept his cool and was able to put forth his argument that India and Pakistan should go beyond their respective narratives and undertake concrete actions where possible. He also made a forceful point that it is not in India's own interest to see a destabilized Pakistan, and that is the reason he does not believe that India has any hand in Balochistan unrest, etc. etc.

He made suggestions such as
1) Liberalization of visa regime between the two countries
2) Pakistan according MFN status to India
3) "India has the technology while Pakistan has the wind" as an energy solution
4) Cricketing ties are again coming onstream.
5) India should be importing Pakistani cement

From my perspective, this is all useful, only if India is however working to break up Pakistan. If we are not, then it is just marginally useful, because it allows him to counter the Pakistani narrative, where possible. However he also offers the Pakistanis present at the discussion to present their own narratives in the presence of an Indian and all those points which remain not countered end up giving Pakistani viewers the impression that they are indeed true, in which case Shashi ends up helping Pakistani establishment to sell their narrative to the Pakistani people. So it is a mixed bag.

The problem is that Shashi in order to appear diplomatic and congenial has to support Pakistan's demands that Indian forces withdraw from Siachin. In this he is siding with the Pakis against the wishes and better judgment of our own security forces. In my view this was inappropriate. He says it is due to trust deficit but is of the opinion that it can be bridged. It is unclear whether he means what he said or whether he is simply giving the Pakis some hope even as he knows that that gap is unbridgeable, and as such no movement is expected on this. Still it is not nice to see or show that the Indian political leadership and the Indian Army disagree on Siachen. It is wrong to give Pakis that impression and it was a concession uncalled for.

He should have said that Pakistan has indeed succeeded in converting some Indian Kashmiris over to a pro-Pakistani Wahhabi extremist Islam, and that minority has been keeping J&K on the boil. So even if the boil is by Kashmiris themselves, Pakistan is still at fault and India holds Pakistan to be at fault. As a Congress man, I don't know whether Shashi can state that truth.

The danger is that Shashi may end up becoming another Mani Shanker Aiyar.

Pakistanis are of naturally pissed off that nobody in the world buys their narrative anymore against India and are now pleading with Indians to help them make their case internationally against the Indian narrative! What a bunch of losers!

http://tribune.com.pk/story/318191/char ... lba-event/

Speaking at the annual dinner of the Lahore Bar Association (LBA) at the Alhamra Arts Council, the prime minister reiterated his determination to protect democracy against all threats. However, a rowdy crowd of young lawyers – who, sources later alleged, were backed by some judges – shouted him off stage and eventually danced to Indian film songs along with dancing girls specially hired for the event

.

RajeshA wrote:The problem is that Shashi in order to appear diplomatic and congenial has to support Pakistan's demands that Indian forces withdraw from Siachin. In this he is siding with the Pakis against the wishes and better judgment of our own security forces. In my view this was inappropriate. He says it is due to trust deficit but is of the opinion that it can be bridged. It is unclear whether he means what he said or whether he is simply giving the Pakis some hope even as he knows that that gap is unbridgeable, and as such no movement is expected on this. Still it is not nice to see or show that the Indian political leadership and the Indian Army disagree on Siachen. It is wrong to give Pakis that impression and it was a concession uncalled for.

RajeshA, I haven't seen the video yet. So, I am basing my opinion on what you have posted above.

I am completely against withdrawing from Saltoro/Siachen unless and until we recover PoK (including GB) completely. However, I am not too sure if what Shashi Tharoor said above goes against the position of GoI. GoI wants Pakistan to authenticate the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), electronically and on the maps. India's mistrust correctly stems from what Pakistan has been, what Pakistan is and what Pakistan shall be. Pakistan is unwilling to do so because it wants to promptly occupy the heights once the IA vacates. When Tharoor talks about a 'bridgeable mistrust', I suppose this is what he meant, that India mistrusts Pakistan but that can be bridged if Pakistan accepts authenticating AGPL to Indian satisfaction as demanded by GoI.

My position is that there should not be any discussion on Siachen at all with Pakistan. Period.

Anujan wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/318191/char ... lba-event/

However, a rowdy crowd of young lawyers – who, sources later alleged, were backed by some judges – shouted him off stage and eventually danced to Indian film songs along with dancing girls specially hired for the event

.

Two things here.

One is the involvement of judges in this shouting against their own Prime Minister. Aren't they liable for punishment for this act ? Or, are they emboldened by the squeeze applied by their big boss, Iftikhar Choudhry saheb, against this PPP government ?

The other is the Indian film songs. They are proving the claim in BRf by some that Pakistan is an electorate of India.

On the whole, truly banana.

SSridhar wrote:

RajeshA wrote:The problem is that Shashi in order to appear diplomatic and congenial has to support Pakistan's demands that Indian forces withdraw from Siachin. In this he is siding with the Pakis against the wishes and better judgment of our own security forces. In my view this was inappropriate. He says it is due to trust deficit but is of the opinion that it can be bridged. It is unclear whether he means what he said or whether he is simply giving the Pakis some hope even as he knows that that gap is unbridgeable, and as such no movement is expected on this. Still it is not nice to see or show that the Indian political leadership and the Indian Army disagree on Siachen. It is wrong to give Pakis that impression and it was a concession uncalled for.

RajeshA, I haven't seen the video yet. So, I am basing my opinion on what you have posted above.

I am completely against withdrawing from Saltoro/Siachen unless and until we recover PoK (including GB) completely. However, I am not too sure if what Shashi Tharoor said above goes against the position of GoI. GoI wants Pakistan to authenticate the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), electronically and on the maps. India's mistrust correctly stems from what Pakistan has been, what Pakistan is and what Pakistan shall be. Pakistan is unwilling to do so because it wants to promptly occupy the heights once the IA vacates. When Tharoor talks about a 'bridgeable mistrust', I suppose this is what he meant, that India mistrusts Pakistan but that can be bridged if Pakistan accepts authenticating AGPL to Indian satisfaction as demanded by GoI.

My position is that there should not be any discussion on Siachen at all with Pakistan. Period.

This is one of the issues that the GOI may be hoping to "solve" by getting VKS out of the way.

Anujan wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/318191/char ... lba-event/

Speaking at the annual dinner of the Lahore Bar Association (LBA) at the Alhamra Arts Council, the prime minister reiterated his determination to protect democracy against all threats. However, a rowdy crowd of young lawyers – who, sources later alleged, were backed by some judges – shouted him off stage and eventually danced to Indian film songs along with dancing girls specially hired for the event

.

eventually danced to Indian film songs along with dancing girls specially hired for the event

RajeshA wrote:
He made suggestions such as

3) "India has the technology while Pakistan has the wind" as an energy solution

So even the sli(c)k boy Tharoor managed to get one thing right.

SSridhar wrote:

RajeshA wrote:The problem is that Shashi in order to appear diplomatic and congenial has to support Pakistan's demands that Indian forces withdraw from Siachin. In this he is siding with the Pakis against the wishes and better judgment of our own security forces. In my view this was inappropriate. He says it is due to trust deficit but is of the opinion that it can be bridged. It is unclear whether he means what he said or whether he is simply giving the Pakis some hope even as he knows that that gap is unbridgeable, and as such no movement is expected on this. Still it is not nice to see or show that the Indian political leadership and the Indian Army disagree on Siachen. It is wrong to give Pakis that impression and it was a concession uncalled for.

RajeshA, I haven't seen the video yet. So, I am basing my opinion on what you have posted above.

I am completely against withdrawing from Saltoro/Siachen unless and until we recover PoK (including GB) completely. However, I am not too sure if what Shashi Tharoor said above goes against the position of GoI. GoI wants Pakistan to authenticate the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), electronically and on the maps. India's mistrust correctly stems from what Pakistan has been, what Pakistan is and what Pakistan shall be. Pakistan is unwilling to do so because it wants to promptly occupy the heights once the IA vacates. When Tharoor talks about a 'bridgeable mistrust', I suppose this is what he meant, that India mistrusts Pakistan but that can be bridged if Pakistan accepts authenticating AGPL to Indian satisfaction as demanded by GoI.

My position is that there should not be any discussion on Siachen at all with Pakistan. Period.

I too haven't seen the video 'cos my bandwidth does not permit it.

If I may add to the above, my understanding is that pakis lobbed us a grenade by proposing the withdrawal from Siachen. They win if we refuse by portraying us to the world as the stumbling block to peace. They win if we vacate, as you wrote, by occupying it.

GOI did the correct thing by lobbing the grenade back by asking them to authenticate the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), electronically and on the maps, a very reasonable request.

I am not sure if this was mentioned by Tharoor, for it was the correct response IMHO.

We have to devise careful positions to all such paki "peace" overtures by avoiding the use of the word "NO". Yes we are ready to discuss every thing under the sun provided certain "reasonable" conditions are met. The conditions need not be reasonable, it just has to appear reasonable.

The supreme court in pakiland just ruled that groper and ten percenti violated the constitution *and the quran* (not kidding) in the NRO case and don't deserve to be Parliamentarians!!

Anujan wrote:The supreme court in pakiland just ruled that groper and ten percenti violated the constitution *and the quran* (not kidding) in the NRO case and don't deserve to be Parliamentarians!!

Are they then charged under the blasphemany law

'Prima Facie the prime minister is not an honest man and violated his oath.'

By Justice Khosa on the NRO Verdict.

Why am I having a "I could have told you that" moment?

So now we enter the next phase of the game.

another 29 dispatched to meet their 72

PESHAWAR: At least 29 people were killed and 27 others were critically injured on Tuesday in a bomb blast near a petrol pump in Jamrud bazar of Khyber Agency, political agent Mutahirzeb told The Express Tribune.

The cause of the blast is still unknown; however, initial investigations show that the bomb was planted in a taxi stand near the petrol pump.

The injured have been shifted to the Hayatabad Medical Complex in Peshawar.

Dr Syed Ali Shah from Hayatabad Medical Complex said that the hospital received four dead bodies and two critically injured people. The injured also later passed away.

At least 32 other injured people were also brought to the hospital, among which four are currently in a critical condition due to head injuries, he added.

According to sources, the members of a local peace committee, called Zaka Khel, in Khyber Agency were passing through the area when the bomb exploded. The committee fights against the militants in the area.

Authorities in Peshawar say that militants have changed their tactics and now tend to target security officials that have begun a crackdown against them. A number of security officials have been receiving threats and many were kidnapped and killed.

The militants say that they are avenging the security operation taking place in the area that has left many of their fellows killed.

Latest AFP figures put the toll @ 35

So Imran Khan comes on times now and says the only credible institution left in Pakistan is the judiciary. Yeah right!

the only credible institution left in pakistan is jemima goldsmith

Memogate was a diversion. The real attack was on the NRO front.

I wander how much the British had their hand in this!

Dipanker wrote: I am surprised you are calling him poor, he kicked some paki ass!

I call him poor because he is a polished, erudite, gentle bloke whose worldview is incompatible with those abominable pigLeTs hounding him with all kinds of paranoid obsessions of theirs. Plus, I don't take any comfort at verbal volleys with TSP. The struggle with TSP is not a debating contest. For all of Tharoor's volleys, I am sure TSP RAPE who saw that debate will also take comfort at the volleys their jihadis fired on Tharoor. I mean they live in an alternate universe and the reason why that alternate worldview has a life of its own is because TSP gives it life through pigLeTs asserting themselves like they did on 26/11. And the answer to that is not a debate. The answer lies in inflicting pain.

anishns wrote: May Allah grant Janna to the purer one

Jana Shah of pee deaf fame? She is old n fat, and definitely not a virginn.

Anujan wrote:The supreme court in pakiland just ruled that groper and ten percenti violated the constitution *and the quran* (not kidding) in the NRO case and don't deserve to be Parliamentarians!!

10% is such a smart kid. He is not a Parliamentarian to start with.
Thanks to Allah, He is saved

Wasn't somebody asking here why the fireworks have stopped in Pakistan ? Now, both political and terror fireworks have started simultaneously.

Kayani meets senior military officials

RAWALPINDI: Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Ashfaque Pervez Kayani held an informal meeting with senior military officials at the Army General Headquarters (GHQ) on Tuesday following his return from China, DawnNews reported.

The Army chief was briefed about Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani’s recent interview to a Chinese newspaper concerning Kayani and DG ISI Shuja Pasha’s statements to the Supreme Court. Kayani was visiting Beijing on a five-day official trip to meet with the Chinese military and political leadership.

According to sources, a detailed statement is expected soon from the Pakistani military on the prime minister’s interview. Sources also say that the following 24 hours are extremely important as far as civil-military relations are concerned.

The Corps Commander’s meeting, scheduled to take place next week, was also postponed. A new date for the meeting was not yet announced.

Zardari calls emergency PPP core committee meeting

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Tuesday called an emergency meeting of the Pakistan People’s Party’s (PPP) core committee at the Presidency in Islamabad, DawnNews reported.

A scheduled meeting of the president with a delegation of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) leaders in Karachi was also postponed earlier today.

Speaking to DawnNews, presidential spokesperson Farhatullah Babar declined to comment on the Supreme Court’s orders on the NRO case Tuesday, stating that he had not yet read the detailed verdict.

Elections are around the corner folks. Gilani saheb can forget about the Senate elections, it will be general elections shortly. I am beginning to wonder why Musharraf actually pre-poned his return to Pakistan from March to end-January. The recent six-day visit to China and the 75-minute talk with Wen, after all, acquire a new meaning in the face of the latest judicial developments. The ISI, FIA and the IB have so far played their cards well by drumming up support for their candidate, Imran Khan. The next task for these three organizations is to scandalize Nawaz Sharif and get as many party members to cross over as possible. That effort, already in full swing, will only acquire a greater urgency now. Never a dull moment in Pakistan. In fact, every moment is more exciting than the earlier one.

pankajs wrote:1 Sources also say that the following 24 hours are extremely important as far as civil-military relations are concerned.

Is slavery and browning the pant when the Army general flexes muscles considered 'relationship'?

Look like 10% is with the back to the wall so he is taking on the Army having no choice left or perhaps fate is sealed anyway..

TSP - a country where the Army can open doors for you, if you are in their good books, otherwise they open the sun-roof ..and let some fresh air in..

Let us wait for the army press release on groper's comments.

It would seem logical now to assume that the government would want the Army/Judiciary combo to sack the government. If early election is inevitable anyway, the script would be to go to the people as martyrs of political conspiracy.

from nutty nation
Indian hackers fell DGPR website

Directorate General Public Relations (DGPR)'s official website has been hacked by Indian hackers, on Tuesday. It is pertinent to mention that the site has not been working properly since the last one hour. Sources said a firm namely Indishell is claiming credit for the hacking.

This refugee problem is more or less the same problem due to which South Korea is tolerating North Korea and kim's idiocu.

There won't be a refugee problem in punjab as Indian economy has grown most of the labour in Punjab from Bihar/UP has gone back to their home states. Punjab/Haryana needs lot of labor to work in fields and factories.

shiv wrote:

jamwal wrote:
Is this fluency in a foreign language something that important ?

LOL Perfectly valid point! But the fact is that Tharoors language style has an appeal to a peculiar class of "Indian public school" types who go hahaha about Wodehouse. Unfortunately or not it includes me because a part of my own personality was shaped in a similar background.

I could call it an Indian Anglophone Macaulayite old school network that is tickled/titillated by the language.

Tharoor headed up the Wodehouse Society of India for some time.

SBajwa wrote:

This refugee problem is more or less the same problem due to which South Korea is tolerating North Korea and kim's idiocu.

There won't be a refugee problem in punjab as Indian economy has grown most of the labour in Punjab from Bihar/UP has gone back to their home states. Punjab/Haryana needs lot of labor to work in fields and factories.

They are not even fit to be even used as labour sir and they bring a lot of problems to us demographic change is one such thing

E-TV telugu is showing Military style kammandus near Presidential palace Pakistan.

KLNMurthy wrote:

shiv wrote: LOL Perfectly valid point! But the fact is that Tharoors language style has an appeal to a peculiar class of "Indian public school" types who go hahaha about Wodehouse. Unfortunately or not it includes me because a part of my own personality was shaped in a similar background.

I could call it an Indian Anglophone Macaulayite old school network that is tickled/titillated by the language.

Tharoor headed up the Wodehouse Society of India for some time.

It shows in his style of understated sarcasm. "We have the technology and you have the wind"

I saw most of the Tharoor video finally. Tharoor's act is interesting in that it may be telegraphing GoI intent; it is clear that there is no space in the Indian esrablishment for a steely-eyed defense of India with a minimal engagement with TSP. Tharoor himself is not the issue as is a kind of collective superstition he represents vis-a-vis TSP.

The pakis are more interesting--my Urdu is limited but there is ample evidence here that (a) they are monsters (b) their policy can be explained as two-pronged: (a)the hegira model of exile pending conquest and (b) behaving, for all intents and purposes, as though muslum league achieved its confederation with separate muslim electorate having, in effect veto power over the self-definition of the subcontinent.

KLNMurthy wrote:
The pakis are more interesting-- (b) behaving, for all intents and purposes, as though muslum league achieved its confederation with separate muslim electorate having, in effect veto power over the self-definition of the subcontinent.

If we let them do it and define who Indians are then they will do it. India has to project itself directly to the rest of the world. Then there will be no contest. Pakis has taken advantage of it and of course with UK and company.
Indians have to define the rest of the people in the sub continent. The current elite generation and from independence time have been no clear about their identity for India and for the sub continent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html

Pakistani court warns prime minister over failure to prosecute president on graft charges

http://nvonews.com/2012/01/10/pakistan- ... musharraf/
Pakistan should build better ties with Israel to drive out India: Musharraf

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 439602.cms
India won't come in way of Israel-Pak ties: Krishna

KLNMurthy wrote:it is clear that there is no space in the Indian esrablishment for a steely-eyed defense of India with a minimal engagement with TSP.

IMHO, there is no option but to engage simultaneously with multiple power centers in TSP. Minimal engagement will not get us anywhere in terms of influencing the course of events.

KLNMurthy wrote:I saw most of the Tharoor video finally. Tharoor's act is interesting in that it may be telegraphing GoI intent; it is clear that there is no space in the Indian esrablishment for a steely-eyed defense of India with a minimal engagement with TSP. Tharoor himself is not the issue as is a kind of collective superstition he represents vis-a-vis TSP.

The pakis are more interesting--my Urdu is limited but there is ample evidence here that (a) they are monsters (b) their policy can be explained as two-pronged: (a)the hegira model of exile pending conquest and (b) behaving, for all intents and purposes, as though muslum league achieved its confederation with separate muslim electorate having, in effect veto power over the self-definition of the subcontinent.

Well, Manmohan Singh has spared no opportunity to say he wants reengaements with Pakistan. Tharoor made the same point in his Asian Age article. Noone in GOI has ever said that they want to no engagement with them. But on the other hand, the steeley eyed defense of Indian interests seems to continue on the ground. Nothing has been given away. On Siachen, GOI's position has long been that it should be demilitarized provided the AGPL is agreed too by the Pakis. In think Singh once declared that it should be become a 'friendship park' or something like that. Tharoor did not get into a prolonged debate of how and why the IA got there (after all the Pakis were encouraging expeidtions from their side with published maps that appeared to show it as theirs, and plus there was the giant order of snow gear that IA got wind of I think), but made an abstract jab about trust. I think that he, as a debater, did not want to get sucked into debating these details, but wanted to remain on his message. In debating it is a good tactic to not let the enemy define the topic. Even on the LTTE, he could have elucidated on history more clearly, but he quickly jumped to telling them to help India fight LeT as India had done. His goal was to stay on message (regardless of whether one agrees with the value of that message), and in that he was successful I think.

The Pakis show their typical sense of entitlement but seem to grasping at straws. Can't see anyone falling for this crap anymore, anywhere, other than the most persistant India haters and dhimmis.

Shree Tharoor's accent is more Indian Public school angrej. Not exactly foreign. It struck me when he was being interviewed by Stephen Colbert once and could contrast between the two. Of course RAPE has a distinct, lazy drawl that seem to make them appear cocky to non-juvy neutrals, with minimal inputs from injuns. And of course the usual "Karachi is like Bombay" trademark comments sort of gives their yearning for acceptance away.

Shree ST's twitter stream has a few pakis making interesting observations of the above kind. His kid also seems to have been busy
http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2012/0 ... -be-saved/