Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Oct 2009 20:25

A lot to reply to RayC, but will have to wait for that until evening. Just in brief and passing, I hope RayC was not referring to another "Elokeshi" famous in connection with a "Mohanta" of Tarakeswar I think. This was a notorious story when it first happened. But I still fail to see why even that story will be relevant here? I would understand if RayC is pointing towards the fallibility or hypocrisy among individuals within "Hinduism" - but "Hinduism" per se is not a point of dicussion for this thread. And I cannot think of any political-strategic significance of the Mohanta-Elokeshi incident then or now! Maybe RayC can clarify what he really meant by the term.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Oct 2009 21:06

I agree there is a lot to learn from our puranas, but is there any reason we keep going to Mahabharata and astrological predictions?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Oct 2009 21:38

brihaspati wrote:A lot to reply to RayC, but will have to wait for that until evening. Just in brief and passing, I hope RayC was not referring to another "Elokeshi" famous in connection with a "Mohanta" of Tarakeswar I think. This was a notorious story when it first happened. But I still fail to see why even that story will be relevant here? I would understand if RayC is pointing towards the fallibility or hypocrisy among individuals within "Hinduism" - but "Hinduism" per se is not a point of dicussion for this thread. And I cannot think of any political-strategic significance of the Mohanta-Elokeshi incident then or now! Maybe RayC can clarify what he really meant by the term.

I rather leave it at that.

Take it for what it is worth,

Yes, indeed nothing on the religion. More on the interpretation and how one can ensure that India's interest is not dictated by forces and power from beyond. And how indigenous faiths can thwart the use of non indigenous religions from being used as a ''strategic weapon'' that in the long run may destabilise the country. At the same time I will hasten to add that it is not also about other religions either and instead merely on the issue of being used as a political tool by non indigenous people and powers.

We already have the divide between Hindus and Moslems which has been the cause of so much of distress. It is not the individuals who are at fault, but the forces that manipulate them as 'weapon systems' for their ulterior motives.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2009 21:52

SwamyG wrote:I agree there is a lot to learn from our puranas, but is there any reason we keep going to Mahabharata and astrological predictions?

Its about astronomy to date the Mahabharata. To verify the antiquity of the Indian civilization which has been made after the Judaic construct by William Jones.

Its not about astrology.

A side note even if you dont beleive in it(astrology), it will come back to bite you.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Oct 2009 21:55

ramana wrote:
A side note even if you dont beleive in it(astrology), it will come back to bite you.

There has been a debate for a long time on the connection of the two!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Oct 2009 22:04

ramana wrote:
SwamyG wrote:I agree there is a lot to learn from our puranas, but is there any reason we keep going to Mahabharata and astrological predictions?
Its about astronomy to date the Mahabharata. To verify the antiquity of the Indian civilization which has been made after the Judaic construct by William Jones.

Its not about astrology.

A side note even if you dont beleive in it(astrology), it will come back to bite you.

Ramana gaaru: I made the same points (highlighted above) couple of times. But the discussions keep going to astrological predictions, that is why I asked the above.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Oct 2009 23:12

ramana wrote: Its about astronomy to date the Mahabharata. To verify the antiquity of the Indian civilization which has been made after the Judaic construct by William Jones.
.

I hope you are wearing a dhoti Ramana, otherwise you have no right to say that.

The problem is that everything before the Islamic invasion falls under the category Hindu (correctly) which automatically translates into Religion.

Sanskrit == religion.
Meghdootam == religion
Mahabharat == religion.
and of course as we know already religion == myth == history
So clearly through a series of steps, everything in Indian soil is automatically "branded" and immediately dismissed.

Of course this clearly omits that Hindu in the first place was never a religion in the sense Islam was, but a word to describe Bharaitya/Indian/Hindustani framework for which the other barbarians was one connected whole.

Thus Indians are not only locked in a particular framework, but the key is thrown away by the prisoners themselves so afraid are they of what they might find outside the cramped confines of the cell they are in. Evidently, know the truth and the truth shall set you free, is not heard of by DIE despite being under overwhelming influence of Abhramic memes.

This is a post for the distorted history thread too, but the reason I post it here primarily is that the play out of the future strategic scenario will come to a discussion on core values which will shape the decision making, again, again and again, and the sense of self is the core of core values.
------

Disclaimer --
Since there is some danger RayC may feel that I am speaking of him, so I would like to clarify I am actually speaking of the structured approach in so called social Intelligentsia today in India.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Oct 2009 23:56

Sanku,

I am quite clear of my identity and my antecedents.

I have NO insecurities, be it cultural, linguistic, geographical, religious or whatever.

I am not 'possessed' by any inner feeling to promote as the Indian or Hindu epics as the last word. I only draw inspiration from the morals that they contain and I find no reason to force it on to people who do not care for it! They can go their way and I go my way!

These epics themselves give me the inner strength to face the challenges of life!

Therefore, I am not afraid or worried of being 'swamped' by any other 'forces'.

But it is true that I am a prisoner of my conscience and the requirement of allowing all to find their own space in life, be it in a religious way or otherwise. I don't decry anyone for his choice of religion or for his antecedents!

I am sure and quite confident that you never meant me in your exposition in the last post.

Chillax!

BTW I am in an Indonesian lungi right now. That, however, does not make me a Moslem!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Oct 2009 00:04

Sanku,
Only while doing puja at home.

Thanks, ramana

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Oct 2009 00:06

ramana wrote:Sanku,
Only while doing puja at home.

Thanks, ramana

In Bengal one has to wear Goroder dhuti!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Oct 2009 02:29

SwamyG,
as for Vivekananda, Surinder and Abhi_G have written excellent summary of the aspect I hinted at in the "distorted history" thread in GDF. Vivekananda's college-level education was in the precursor of the current Scottish Church College. Alexander Duff founded the institution, and right from the beginning there were issues about exposure to Christianity. Actually parents had to be reassured that reading the Bible automatically did not make a student a Christian. This important incident points to the fact that mixed in with the declared aim of "spreading liberal western education" the "reading of teh Bible " was something that could not be compromised on. If you look at the connections, background and associations of Alexander Duff, I think the picture will get clear. Along with Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Dr. Duff played a role in supporting Macaulay in drafting his famous Minute for the introduction of English education in India.

Narendra (Vivekananda's purbashram name) was deeply fascinated by the "Evolutionism" of Herbert Spencer, corresponded with Spencer, and translated Spencer’s book on Education into Bengali. He apparently became a member of the Freemason's Lodge and the "Sadharan Brahma Samaj". He initially looked upon on Ramakrishna's ecstasies and visions as, "mere figments of imagination", "mere hallucinations". [Nikhilananda, Swami (April 1964). "Swami Vivekananda Centenary". Philosophy East and West (University of Hawai'i Press) ] He revolted against idol worship and "polytheism", and Ramakrishna's worship of Kali. He even rejected the Advaitist Vedantism of identity with absolute as blasphemy and madness, and often ridiculed the concept [Romain Rolland, (1929). "Naren the Beloved Disciple". The Life of Ramakrishna; V.K. Arora, (1968). "Communion with Brahmo Samaj". The social and political philosophy of Swami Vivekananda. Punthi Pustak.]

From this to the statements made later by Vivekananda about why and how "Bharatyias" should feel pride in their heritage, and his presenting the source of revival and strength in "Vedanta" is quite a transition. Vivekananda rejects the "western" philosophies, and even the stance of the "Brahmo samaj" (which could be considered to have taken on Christian aspects and forms among certain factions). He is not prepared to compromise in ideological elements with the Abrahamic, even if he admires aspects of these faiths he finds useful or imitable.

As for Aurobindo, his dad, Dr. K.D.Ghosh, named him Aurobindo Akroyd Ghosh. the story goes that his father was determined that his children should have an English education and upbringing free of any Indian influences. In 1877, He therefore sent the young Aurobindo and his siblings to the Loreto Convent school in Darjeeling. Aurobindo spent two years at Loreto convent. In 1879, Aurobindo and his two elder brothers were sent to Manchester, England for a "European education". The brothers were placed in the care of a Rev. and Mrs. Drewett. Rev. Drewett was an Anglican clergyman, who was known to Dr. K.D. Ghosh through his British friends. The Drewetts tutored the brothers privately. The couple had been asked to keep the tuitions completely secular and to make no mention of India or its culture.

From here to Sri Aurobindo's later political activism that led to the foundation of the revolutionary "Yugantor" group, and his continuing statements from Pondichery Ashram, is again quite a transition.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Oct 2009 02:42

brihaspati,

Well analysed and to the point.

Informative.

On Duff and his period, it is a very exciting and fluid period of time.

Indeed, without knowing the Bible one cannot quite understand the English language as without knowing the Hindu epics, one cannot understand the Indian languages since an allegory from the epics would give a complete idea without that many words.

Kamal Bose was associated with Duff and he was also of the firm belief i.e. Duff that without a good command on one's native language, it was impossible to master a foreign language.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Oct 2009 03:00

>>>as for Vivekananda, Surinder and Abhi_G have written excellent summary of the aspect I hinted at in the "distorted history" thread in GDF.
Ahh.....an often thing that happens, discussions on a subject in different threads. Interestingly the discussion on the subject comes from different angles or origins. For example, so much material common in the Core, Future Strategy and Future Leadership threads. We need wise Naradars traveling across these threads and passing info. or pointers to BRFites.

Thanks for the elaboration and pointing to the other thread.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Oct 2009 03:19

RayC wrote
Yes, all religions including the benign Hinduism has exhorted violent means to fight evil and sin.

If the intent is to compare exhortations to violence in the Abrahamic with that of "Hindu" - I cannot see any comparison. The only place where there is a clear cut exhortation within the "Hindu", is in the "survey of the battlefield" in Mahabharata. Here the "sins" are quite well defined, and the violence is urged to set right perceived wrongs taking place within a recognized rashtra and its territory - "adharma" of public molestation of a wife, deprivation of rightful inheritance according to the rules of that society, etc. Even ashwamedha yajnas are not undertaken to establish dharma (this goes out of the yajnik's political boundary) outside of own territory - but simply for literal and avowedly imperialist expansion only.

Compared to this the urging of Israelites to conquer Canaanite cities and territories with complete genocide (according to the Old Testament) is justifying such actions not because a clear line of inheritance can be shown - but because "God" had promised that land to the Israelites. There is no obvious "sin/evil" of the Canaanites that is being cited as the reason for this genocidal aggression. As for Islam, lets leave it to your last remark.

Since you are well conversant with history, do let educate as to how Hinduism spread in SE Asia and Indonesia?

I dont understand why this history, which is well known and well debated from the times of R.C.Majumdar and H.C.Raychoudhury, be relevant here in general. Unless of course you are referring to the claimed naval expeditions by the Chola kings. The only "violent" expeditions from "Hindu" India that we can perhaps grip on. But interestingly the Chola kings were actually raiding the "SriVijaya" kings who were themselves already "Hindu/Shaiva". So this means that "Hinduism" as such had already spread before the "known" "violent expansions". Then agains we will also need to establish whether the Cholas were carrying out "missionary" activities of their own to spread "hinduism" by the "sword" on non-"Hindus".

Give the quote of the Prophet of Islam which states the post puberty none can convert. Or that there will be no hijras thereafter. That will be an education for me.

I said that there were narratives in the core texts which could be quoted as precedence :

Hadith from Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 38, Number 4390: Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: "I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair." This reference to the companions is to the actual cohort led personally by the prophet against the Banu Quraiza Jews, and whose public execution was personally supervised by him in Medina.

It is curious to note that the precedence appears to have been honoured even in India. In Katehar Balban ordered a general massacre of all males older than eight years and carried away the women and children.

The quote about "hijra/jihad" comes from Bukhari: (Shahi Al-Bukhari)

Bukhari:(4)(52)(311) “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘There is no migration after the Conquest of Mecca, but only Jihad. When you are called by the Muslim ruler for Jihad fighting, you should go forth immediately, responding to the call.’”

Bukhari:(4)(53)(412) “Allah’s Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.’”

If I may make a request, if you want me to quote explicitly from "texts" can you please ask that on some relevant thread on GDF?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Oct 2009 06:04

The three "local" vertices of the triangular trap is being activated. China in the "East", Naxals in the "south", and Jihadis in the "west". The basic target appears to be a coordination (between Naxals and Jihadis can be strange, however can be mediated by third party) to have a bridgehead in J&K from North and west, and separation of the midlands and the east. The two "tongues" to approach and meet in the "Gangetic plains". Both the bases in eastern MP and Nepal can protect this meeting point meanwhile.

But this should then necessitate confinement of possible opposition in the south-west. One way could be another merry dance of "terror" in the south west to keep the pressure and attention on.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 15 Oct 2009 06:30

As far as Ravana and 10 heads is concerned, you portray Mahabharat as history, so should Ramayana be. Ravana it is said had 10 heads and so that too should be true.

Without attempting to go into religious discourse, the methodology of narration and image creation in Bharatiya civilization needs to be kept in mind. The symbolism, images and other aides are described in various fashion. To emphasize the extraordinary powers associated with a character; the genius of narrative is to symbolical represent them in hyperbole. The artists frequently use hyperbole to convey and emphasize a particular property of the subject under description.
In the case of Ravana, the character is said to be an evil genius, who had tremendous accomplishments to his credit. His achievement for an ordinary mortal is equivalent to that of ten different people/ten different lives. Well it is easy for a child or any lay reader to understand and remember that this character has a particular property that is easily recalled.
Usage of symbolisms perse doesn't either allow veracity of the truth of the history or not. Such narrative power is made full use of in Hindu stories all along and hence anyone who is out of touch with the techniques employed by Bharatiya civilization would have lot of anxiety to see such depictions.
Failure to decipher and understand the intent and purpose of depiction cannot be the bedrock to determine truth or otherwise.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Oct 2009 00:29

Increasingly brazen attacks on symbolic icons of the TSPA is good indication of the frustration of the Taleb-PA combine. A warning to the USA that the PA is the one to sponsor in the fight against "terror" and resources should be primarily given to the PA to carry out its agenda of Jihadi expansion, and not controlled by the civilian gov.

The PA is worried probably that it will run out of resources to maintain the drive of the Jihadis into AFG and into India. It can try to stage these attacks or allow such attacks to happen to bring itself back into international focus and claim all resources. We should look at the possible coordination of the Naxalite violence, Chinese "incursions", and Jihadi crossover attempts in J&K as part of a single coordinated strategy.

RG's statements about the insignificance of PAK wrt India is a red herring. Is he trying too hard to downplay the whole or completely out of his depth here?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Oct 2009 11:00

If I may make a request, if you want me to quote explicitly from "texts" can you please ask that on some relevant thread on GDF?

If you quote the quotes in its true form, why the GDF?

I would be very categorical, if you notice I don't hide behind the 'invisible' screen/facility allowed in the forum. You will find my name in clear.

That is why I don't care or know what is the GDF jazz all about.

Ehyeh asher ehyeh

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Oct 2009 11:02

Without attempting to go into religious discourse, the methodology of narration and image creation in Bharatiya civilization needs to be kept in mind. The symbolism, images and other aides are described in various fashion. To emphasize the extraordinary powers associated with a character; the genius of narrative is to symbolical represent them in hyperbole. The artists frequently use hyperbole to convey and emphasize a particular property of the subject under description.

Jawalamukhi,

That is precisely my point.

Look at the epics for the symbolism and the moral lessons.

Likewise, all religious texts for all religions.

"Yaa Devii Sarvabhuuteshhu Maatrirupena Sansthitah
Yaa Devii Sarvabhuuteshhu Shaktirupena Sansthitah
Yaa Devii Sarvabhuuteshhu Shaantirupena Sansthitah
Namastasyaih Namastasyaih Namastasyaih Namo Namah"

The above shloka has great inner meaning than what the words indicate.

But then it is OT out here for discussion.

Let us rejoice in the beauty of all religions and not nitpick. The religions are good. but the practitioners and those who interpret do so for personal motives and agendas.

That is my belief.

All religions have some allegory to violence. The symbolism of that has to be understood and not in bareboned terms.

The so called Abrahamic religions sprung up because of demands of those times, as did Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj. One must also understand religions in their historical perspective.

I wonder how many are converting to Brhamo Samaj or Arya Samaj. They served their purpose - wake up a decadent religion to the demands of the time!

Likewise, wailing for the pristine religion in the modern context, without associating with the demands of the current times, is a bit way out!

Something like that post the we should equate India's capability to nuclear ambition as feasible since such a holocaust or missile (arrows) was stated in the epics! Been there, done that!!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Oct 2009 15:44

RayC,
the request came from previous experience about quoting texts from religions, which could be "shocking". One mod urged me to drop gruesome details, and another one did not even wait for that - he simply went ahead and deleted it. I was new to the forum then, so did not save my posts separately. The pattern emerged that any quote from the Hadiths or the Quran that appeared to show the Islamic in bad light compared to current or even then historically prevalent standards, could not be posted to clarify current issues (even though there appeared to be uncanny connections). The problem remains that many of these explicit quotes are formally used to justify current action - and this has been a consistent practice in the Islamic over the ages. These are not usually bandied about before the non-muslim, but neither are they deleted or dropped from Islamic teaching given out in Arabic or Persian and translated to their students by the clergy. The logic behind Sunna justifies mimicing what the prophet is reprted to have done.

Contrary to a certain revisionist trend in representing Islamic history, in reality the earlier the origin of the text was, the more explicit and brutal are the details and descriptions of what was actually done by the prophet and his companions. It was only much later, when these histories were being retold by converts from cultures more sophisticated than that of the prophet's Arabs, that the histories began to be edited. So there has been a progressive whitewashing as time went by and and not increasing demonization. Thus the Shahi Bukhari is more tame than Tabari's history which in turn is tamer than Ibn Ishaq's Sira which was most likely to have been collected and written down within the first two centuries of the prophets life. But even in all those three, certain incidents remain unaltered in their essential details - and the quotes about hijra/jihad and the story of the Banu Qurayzah Jews remain remarkably consistent. This indicates that they were too strongly burnt into collective memory to be whitewashed.

Putting it in GDF is a way to be able to give the quotes without creating problems for the mods in their policy.

As you might have noticed, I too do not use the invisible option. Hiding my regional origins or mother tongue comes from a different motivation as clearly stated before - not to bring the image of my origins as a predefined model in interpreting what I say. For regionalism does affect us and prevents us from rising above it.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Oct 2009 18:30

The new leadership of the Taleban have openly laid out their formal objectives. Once they establish "purer" Islamism on Pakistan they are going to target India. This was stated in an interview broadcast by the Sky. This fits perfectly the scenario that I have been promoting as possible- perhaps for many here, a bit too paranoidly.

There can be all sorts of explanations and possibilities of deception to explain this away. One of the most plausible ones will be that of the need in the US to create the impression that India should contribute towards US plans as India is also "threatened" - or that if the collapse of Pak is not staved off with Indian contribution also, India will "suffer". UK's inner strategy or secret services may also be interested in maintaining their own startegic asset on the subcontinent - Pakistan. PRC has contributed its own towards this "save Pakistan" bandwagon by raising the spectre of a "threat" in AP. At the same time Naxals have been activated.

This means that all of the non-Indian parties involved in this merry game think that for one reason or the other, the time for loss of direct handle on the Pakistani Jihadi rashtra is imminent. The Jihadis have organized and overcome their factional divisions, to further the overall aims with which the Islamists joined the British project of creating Pakistan. This overall aim was arevival of the legendary and mythical Caliphate that sat astride the main economic exchange route between the main production centres of the world - East and the West. The Islamists extremely low intellectual and educational level, combined with the aridity and unproductivity of the lands they occupied, implied they could only live off the produce of others. Once oil runs out or is replaced by alternatives, the temporary productivity in economic terms that allowed them to flourish - will be lost. Then they will need to go back to the Caliphate model - which was essentially a way of justifying the basically looting economy of Islam - to extract surplus from allowing trade between the east and west.

Islamists cannot allow modern educational pursuits that could have allowed themm to try and climb back on the current knowledge based economy. Modern education is typically based on open exploration and unrestricted questioning. This is dangerous for Islam - as learning to question in one direction can spill on to questioning the very claims based on which theologians and Islamic social system imposes itself on human society. So the Islamists very own obsessive search for permanent and absolute power limits its educational, researcha nd knowledgebase improvement. This leaves them only with the old Caliphate model to extract a peace-tax on global trade between its two main regions of innovation and productivity.

The Islamists have seen their chance now. USA the main thorn in their side (as the controller and chief patron - although supportive but still restraining beyind a certain limit) has been weakened. PRC has come up as competitor economy to the USA, which is willing to take up the role of the patron. Also because of the competition, PRC will be more lenient than the USA in allowing the Jihadis greater freedom in their murderous objectives as long as such objectives do not directly infringe on PRC's own imperialist designs.

I have perhaps been the lone voice here trying to project that TSP will not implode on its own. Instead, the basic Jihadi core behind Pakistan's rashtra will activate its programme of Jihadi expansion in both directions - AFG and India. This is part of recreating the only economic model they can understand and which they feel will still allow them to maintain their lifestyle and power structures - that of the mythical Caliphate (in historical reality a very short period of success).

The conflict we see now is a superficial one - maintained only beacuse of external interest and pressure. This does not mean that every part of the rashtryia machinery of TSP is insincere in its formal confrontation. But only those parts which are vulnerable to western pressure or believe in a middle road between the Jihadis and the west are participating actively. This is a minority in TSP. Over the years, Saudi patronization of Wahabi radicalization through education and other socio-political means have practically erased all resistance to the core Jihadi ideology. The society itself has no firm ideological and cultural basis to resist the Jihadis.

Sooner or later, India will have to face the Jihadis. It cannot do so by imagining and trying to convince the Indian people - that Islamic ideology is completely detached from what Islamists are practising. It cannot pretend that preserving the roots and basis of Islamic culture on the subcontinent will allow peaceful coexistence of TSP and India. By doing any such pretension, any Indian Indian regime betrays the people - for it creates the false impression and expectations of inherent "benevolence" that is the source of confusion in being ruthless towards Jihadis.

There is only one solution for this whole problem - erasure of Pakistan as a rashtra, and complete dismantling of Islamic educational system, complete liquidation of those theologians already brought up in the Wahabi tradition. These in turn can only be done if the current populations under TSP comes under direct rashtryia control of India. Those who will oppose this objective will do so from a variety of covert and overt interests and positions. This will include excuses of humanitarian values, claims of inherent benevolence of the ideology and all blames only on "misinterpretation", as well as positive and inseparable cultural contributions, as well the inherent superiority of the ideology compared to all other pre-existing ones on the subcontinent in terms "equality/fraternity" etc. with attendant suppression of real historical experience.

Covert interests will primarily be external - with strategic interests of PRC, UK, and USA in their continued energy, economic and territorial imperialism. These can also be tackled, if India shows the will and determination to do so.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Oct 2009 19:22

brihaspati wrote:RayC,
the request came from previous experience about quoting texts from religions, which could be "shocking". One mod urged me to drop gruesome details, and another one did not even wait for that - he simply went ahead and deleted it. I was new to the forum then, so did not save my posts separately. The pattern emerged that any quote from the Hadiths or the Quran that appeared to show the Islamic in bad light compared to current or even then historically prevalent standards, could not be posted to clarify current issues (even though there appeared to be uncanny connections). The problem remains that many of these explicit quotes are formally used to justify current action - and this has been a consistent practice in the Islamic over the ages. These are not usually bandied about before the non-muslim, but neither are they deleted or dropped from Islamic teaching given out in Arabic or Persian and translated to their students by the clergy. The logic behind Sunna justifies mimicing what the prophet is reprted to have done.

Contrary to a certain revisionist trend in representing Islamic history, in reality the earlier the origin of the text was, the more explicit and brutal are the details and descriptions of what was actually done by the prophet and his companions. It was only much later, when these histories were being retold by converts from cultures more sophisticated than that of the prophet's Arabs, that the histories began to be edited. So there has been a progressive whitewashing as time went by and and not increasing demonization. Thus the Shahi Bukhari is more tame than Tabari's history which in turn is tamer than Ibn Ishaq's Sira which was most likely to have been collected and written down within the first two centuries of the prophets life. But even in all those three, certain incidents remain unaltered in their essential details - and the quotes about hijra/jihad and the story of the Banu Qurayzah Jews remain remarkably consistent. This indicates that they were too strongly burnt into collective memory to be whitewashed.

Putting it in GDF is a way to be able to give the quotes without creating problems for the mods in their policy.

As you might have noticed, I too do not use the invisible option. Hiding my regional origins or mother tongue comes from a different motivation as clearly stated before - not to bring the image of my origins as a predefined model in interpreting what I say. For regionalism does affect us and prevents us from rising above it.

I am not aware of the posts that you mention or the reason for deletion etc and one cannot comment.

I don't think that quoting from the scriptures to prove a point is wrong, unless it has malicious and vindictive intent. That would surely be frowned upon.

Till the 10th Century it was accepted that the Islamic scripture could be interpreted and kept contemporary, but then there was this debate that man cannot change the word of God as it was God who spoke to Mohammed and no one else. Thereafter, in Islam Ijtihad (Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Qur'an and the Sunnah) was not accepted.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 16 Oct 2009 20:03

brihaspati wrote:This overall aim was arevival of the legendary and mythical Caliphate that sat astride the main economic exchange route between the main production centres of the world - East and the West. The Islamists extremely low intellectual and educational level, combined with the aridity and unproductivity of the lands they occupied, implied they could only live off the produce of others. Once oil runs out or is replaced by alternatives, the temporary productivity in economic terms that allowed them to flourish - will be lost. Then they will need to go back to the Caliphate model - which was essentially a way of justifying the basically looting economy of Islam - to extract surplus from allowing trade between the east and west.

I have perhaps been the lone voice here trying to project that TSP will not implode on its own. Instead, the basic Jihadi core behind Pakistan's rashtra will activate its programme of Jihadi expansion in both directions - AFG and India. This is part of recreating the only economic model they can understand and which they feel will still allow them to maintain their lifestyle and power structures - that of the mythical Caliphate (in historical reality a very short period of success).

Over the years, Saudi patronization of Wahabi radicalization through education and other socio-political means have practically erased all resistance to the core Jihadi ideology. The society itself has no firm ideological and cultural basis to resist the Jihadis.

There is only one solution for this whole problem - erasure of Pakistan as a rashtra, and complete dismantling of Islamic educational system, complete liquidation of those theologians already brought up in the Wahabi tradition. These in turn can only be done if the current populations under TSP comes under direct rashtryia control of India.

Brihaspatiji,

Consider this scenario...

An economically and militarily strong India, which withstands the Jihadi onslaught.. Oil money disappeared and consolidation of Muslim nations under a quasi-confederational setup in middle east due to their total reliance on trade-routes, resourceless environment and lack of easy oil-money. The Jihadi movement in Pakjab region is by default alien to to the very basic Dharma of the people living there. They have shifted towards Jihadi mentality in past 60 years owing to monetary and political support by KSA and the West. If the monetary support from KSA dries out, how long will they remain Jihadi? In my estimation, not more than 2 generations, simply because the climate and soil of Punjab is very fertile, and resourceful. The propagation of Jihadi Islam in Pakjab and Sindh, in presence of economically strong Hindu India, is impossible to continue indefinitely.

Their thrust towards heartland will wane as oil-money slowly starts drying out and India becomes more self-reliant on energy sources (R&D thrust towards non-conventional energy is required; tidal energy, wind energy, solar energy, bio-energy, nuclear energy which is thorium based). How wise is it to bring Pakjab and Sindh under Rashtriya dominion when oil-money is still strong? In my opinion, it will be wise to wait at least for 25 years after oil-money has dried up. In case mythical Caliphate is established, rest of the regions will try to have a piggy-back ride on Pakjab for food and human-resource. How much, will Pakjab allow this to happen? and for how long?

The mentality of Punjab is such that they usually remain content in their region. The local power-dynamics keeps them busy with the infighting and they very rarely get chance to project the power outside pancha-nada region. Very rarely, does a Harsha from Thanesar conquer entire north, OR Ranjit singh from Lahore conquer Kabul. There has not been a single Muslim punjabi ruler who has extended his rule over Afghanistan and/or Gangetic plains.

The Dynamic in Pashtoon areas is different. India's way of dealing with Afghans is quite well received by local Afghans and Pathans. This is simply because India does not deal with Afghanistan as one of its lost region which is to be reclaimed. Pakjabis, in their paranoia, think that India's outlook towards pakjab and Sindh is that of reclamation. Same goes for Baloochistan, where people in general think good about India.

In my opinion, it would be wise to wait for 25 years after oil-money is exhausted before reclamation of Pakjab and Sindh. Meanwhile, repel the Jihadi-mentality from borders of ROI and Afghanistan and keep them locked in TSP at all costs.

The Marriage of Jihadi mentality and Central Asian tribal mentality will be very detrimental to prospects of Bhaarat. We have seen this in history. The Central asian tribal mentality is locked in TSP, with central asia itself becoming friendly towards India. The Arabic Jihadi mentality is also currently quarantined in TSP. The product of this marriage should not be allowed to leak out in Afghanistan and in India. Then it will soon die its natural death.

I have not taken into consideration, the tactical moves by PRC, USA, UK towards helping Pakistan and/or debilitating India in above discussion. Everything above this para was a strictly two-particle system.

Jihadi mentality can never defeat ROI militarily and conquer the Gangetic plains on its own. Bhaarat has grown too strong for that to happen in next 200-300 years. However, If PRC or other 2 and half fathers of TSP shift the equilibrium in such a way, that the military hard-shell of ROI is weakened, only then can Jihadis physically unleash the onslaught on Gangetic plains. Despite the strongest thrust of Jihadi mentality towards Bhaaratiya conquest (Ghazwa e hind), it will remain a dream without tactical and indirect help from TSP's 3 and half fathers.

To certain extent, it will help Hindus of Gangetic plains to unshackle themselves from remaining Sanskaars of slavery. It is in India's desperate interest, however, to try and bring about this awakening in Hindu masses of the region without having to need an external shock. The subsequent cleansing of this ominous product of marriage between Jihadi mentality and central asian tribal mentality of the domains of greater Bhaarat, will be an enormous expense in terms of money and blood.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 16 Oct 2009 20:12

Chiron wrote:There has not been a single Muslim punjabi ruler who has extended his rule over Afghanistan and/or Gangetic plains.

In your otherwise great post I wanted to point out that prior to 1947 there has been *NO* Punjabi M ruler, or army, or conquerer. Even after 60 years of having their country, PM's have failed to produce a single hero whose name can adorn a few repainted missiles.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 16 Oct 2009 20:20

Shri Olaf Caroe's viceroy's study group opined that in order to have a stable subcontinent, Punjab would have to act similar to the role of Prussia in the unification of Germany (Peter Brobst - Olaf Caroe and the Future of the Great Game). The retreating brits desparately needed bases in India, more precisely in the northwestern parts to counter Soviet expansion towards the oil fields. The viceroy's group study went wrong and partition happenned. Caroe thereafter continued to insist on weaponization of Pak/Pakjab.

All subsequent US Govts. continued this and the process eriely goes on today. Every dole handed out to pak and mainatainence of pakjabi dominated military and government machinery, possibly takes leaf out of Caroe's understanding of the Great Game. The Great Game post 1947 continued to ensure that the oil wells were out of the influence of the USSR. USSR is no longer there. US is the sole superpower and now seriously challenged by China. So as long as the oil wealth is there, irrespective of Saudi financing, there will be sources financing pak (China? UK once again?) to destabilize India. What happens after the oil wealth is gone? Pak still remains an ideological wahabi outpost against India.

The point is even if it is a period of 200 years that pak continues to feed on oil money and attacks India and undermines India's economic and scientific progress (along with naxal, northeast etc.), the loss in terms of Indian resources is huge. We unfortunately do not have a sugar daddy....or for that matter probably never had a sugar daddy, except for the period of the cold war. Do we have the resources/will?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 16 Oct 2009 20:51

Notwithstanding the desires of the Taliban for purer Islam, the US cannot afford to have a govt in either Pakistan or Afghanistan that is hostile to it and its policies and aims. For instance, Karzai has become indifferent to the US and so everything was done to ensure Karzai be removed including attempts to fudge the election and declare it invalid. The ruckus between Galbraith, the US plant in the UN team overseeing the Election is a case in point. Ban Moon had no option but to sack Galbraith. As the popular saying goes – you cannot buy an Afghan, you can only rent him.

The US will not allow Pakistan to go into Taliban hands or in the hands of Nawaz Sharif. Adequate money will be poured in to ensure that the elections go in favour of those who the US wants. US will also bolster the sagging economy of Pakistan to keep it afloat. Indeed, but for US money, Pakistan would have keeled over long ago.

If Pakistan fall prey to the Taliban, indeed it will be to India’s disadvantage and one would not require any US suggestions on the way to this belief. A hostile Pakistan is better than a rabid Pakistan. If the Taliban takes over Pakistan, they will export the terror more seriously into Kashmir and also into interior India. The only option would be war and with Pakistan’s nuclear assets in the mullahs hands would be a serious threat to India in such a war. Pakistan, thus, has to be kept afloat in India’s interest, but it does not necessarily mean that such a Pakistan remains stable. More the internal dissensions in Pakistan, more India will breathe easy.

In so far as the US is concerned in this area, I feel it is her intention to remain in this area and an unstable Afghanistan and Pakistan is in her interest, since it is the perfect excuse to hang around. There was a report the other day in the news that the US feels that the AQ is in serious financial problem as the funds their way is drying up. And, at the same time, it added that the funds for the Taliban were increasing! Thus, the rationale to have a bogeyman got well established to support the rationale for the US presence. No matter how many troops the US wants to beef up with, those who have operated COIN campaigns are well aware that the troop level maintained by the ISAF is woefully low for cogent COIN operations. India does not have such a huge force in Kashmir for window dressing. They are a necessity and even what India maintains is not adequate. Compare the terrain of Afghanistan and the troop density with that of Kashmir. Further, fighting insurgency in the Valleys is not adequate. Sealing (though it cannot be 100%) the borders is equally important. The US and ISAF’s strategy does not suggest that they are serious about curbing the menace and instead allowing it to fester so that the US actions and presence is justified. Afghanistan and Pakistan are but ‘cockpits’ to oversee a turbulent and fluid area of Central Asia including China. To believe that the Uighur anger in Xinjiang was not externally nudged would also be naïve. In fact, in the overall context, it suits India’s interest.

However, to believe that the US is an all weather friend of India would be equally naïve. The US would not like any nation in the region, including India and China, to become a power. While the US will exploit these countries to her advantage, she will ensure there is disharmony and discord. The recent moving close of the US with the Nuclear deal, strategic partnership et al is but a ploy to unnerve China. The Chinese have played into the hands of the US with massive military exercise in Tibet (and thus indicating their mobilisation capability), incursions across the LAC and wild claims over Arunachal Pradesh and juvenile protests over India’s attempt to modernise the area and visits of personalities!

Even if the British plan was to have Pakistan as a finger in the pie, one wonders how our own national leaders agreed to play into their hands. I believe Gandhi said – Partition over my dead body!

Once the oil dries up or alternate fuels are discovered/ invented, Islam becomes a footnote of history. It is oil alone that breathes a life into Islam today. Dreams of a Caliphate would be as good as a glass of hemlock!

Modern education is typically based on open exploration and unrestricted questioning is a danger not only to Islam, but to all ‘closed’ societies. That is why I question even posts that dogmatises Indic and indigenous religion issues. It is not out of cussedness, but to search the ‘truth’! It maybe a fault with me, but I dislike being told to accept thing just because it is the Gospel Truths! Nothing in life is beyond reasoning is what I believe.

China will hardly encourage the jihadis. China has been placed on notice by the Al Qaeda. And they are quailing. While they can take on the pacifist Tibetan Buddhists, Islamic elements are a different kettle of fish. The posts of Chinese posters on the internet would give one an idea if one reads between the lines.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 16 Oct 2009 21:00

Abhi_G wrote: So as long as the oil wealth is there, irrespective of Saudi financing, there will be sources financing pak to destabilize India. What happens after the oil wealth is gone? Pak still remains an ideological wahabi outpost against India.

The point is even if it is a period of 200 years that pak continues to feed on oil money and attacks India and undermines India's economic and scientific progress (along with naxal, northeast etc.), the loss in terms of Indian resources is huge. We unfortunately do not have a sugar daddy....or for that matter probably never had a sugar daddy, except for the period of the cold war. Do we have the resources/will?

AbhiG (

not using the epithet ji, which I usually use, as two G's will be funny to read)

There are other forces which are trying to shift away from oil towards more sustainable resources. The climate-change lobby is quite stronger.

1. Even if oil in middle east dries up, there is lot of oil in Russia, which they haven't used yet. All that oil money will go to Russia, after middle east is exhausted. ME remains a rental entity of the West, Russia will not. Hence, West won't like Russia getting that power. They already control vast land, and considering their clout in CARs, they have direct access to more about 70 elements in periodic table, along with oil and gas.

2. Hence, tremendous efforts are being put into development of alternative energy resources. EU already plans to replace 20% of their total transportation oil need with biofuels by 2020.

3. ME has money because rest of the world gives it to them. If, say by 2050, India becomes totally self-sufficient in energy owing to wise leadership in India which invested heavily in Solar, wind and bioenergy, the Indian share of money will stop. And this won't happen in India alone, this will happen in in sync with rest of the world. ME will be cash-strapped, and according to Brihaspatiji's model, try to form a loose confederation of Islamic states overlooking the trade routes. In this scenario, it will be increasingly expensive for ME to maintain Pakjab as its wahabi outpost. And Pakjabis won't act as outpost for less money.

4. Was USSR really our sugar-daddy? Yes it gave us some concessions, but extracted a very heavy price for it as well. Of course, it is impossible to dictate a vast country like India totally, but they took their pound of flesh.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 16 Oct 2009 21:30

^^^^

What about control of the Indian Ocean? If Russia wants to control that region, US/UK/China will stick around to counter that. So basically the great game will continue. The EU remains distrustful of Russia and vice versa if I am not wrong. (You probably have a better persepctive about that.) And in that procedure pak will always be their chaprasi; as long as whoever finances the lavish, corrupt and feudal lifestyle of pak rulers, pak will play other's game and will continue to conduct jihad on India.

Regarding Russia, no I do not think, they were our sugar daddy. But at certain points of time (1971), they came to our help.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 16 Oct 2009 23:12

I would agree with one thing: without oil Islamic World = Africa. That is, a giant mess than the rest of the world wants little part of and hopes to contain.

When the oil dries up or is made obsolete by other energy sources, all the muslim nations will face two choices:

1) Embrace moderate values and join the developed world.. This essentially means "stop being muslims", which in reality means they'll still profess their Islamic beliefs but they won't be "true" muslims anymore, as they will have abandoned most of the bigotry, backward thinking, and jehadi-mentality that are at the core of all true muslim believers.

2) Blame all woes on the kaffir and get nuts. Historically, this is the default choice.

Personally, I'd put my bet on option # 2. I believe when the oil money dries up, most of the Islamic nations will become even more radical, bigoted, and violent. Many would collapse into Somalia-type entities, most others would end up like today's Pakistan. I say this simply because that's what muslims have always done in times of adversity. At the very moment when serious introspection is required, muslims have almost always rejected such thinking in favor of hatemongering and even deeper radicalism. In trying times, Islam has produced plenty of Osama bin Ladens but only once have they produced a Kemal Ataturk. Only in one place (Turkey) did an Islamic society choose to confront adversity by abandoning Islam, rather than embracing it.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Oct 2009 23:32

Let me say Arabs are not stupid and shrewd business people and they will invest well , change and survive . The burden of change will fall on the converts beyond Arabia and if these converts fail to amend it will be detrimental for their welfare . In long term , it is never good to ditch the ancestral path and join the marauding crowd.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Oct 2009 01:45

Abhi_G wrote:
The point is even if it is a period of 200 years that pak continues to feed on oil money and attacks India and undermines India's economic and scientific progress (along with naxal, northeast etc.), the loss in terms of Indian resources is huge. We unfortunately do not have a sugar daddy....or for that matter probably never had a sugar daddy, except for the period of the cold war. Do we have the resources/will?

Do you think Indians want to be slaves again?

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 17 Oct 2009 02:17

Acharya wrote: Do you think Indians want to be slaves again?

Do you know whether top level mantris are not cutting deals thereby endangering our future?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Oct 2009 02:30

Abhi_G wrote:
Do you know whether top level mantris are not cutting deals thereby endangering our future?

It is upto us to fix it. Every generation has to lookout for the future and fix things.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 17 Oct 2009 02:53

I was looking through the GDP and national accounts of the USA. If USA has to support entirely the economy of TSP, by the 2008 estimates, the ratio of TSP GDP to that of USA is roughly 1.1%. But problem, is the amount that can be spared by USA. If we look at the approximate Federal share of the national income for expenditure, then that turns out to roughly 980 billion. (2007) The current estimated GDP requirement fr TSP is about 165 billion. Even a 10% support is approximately 1.7% of the Federal outlay. And the Federal budget reserves roughly 2/3rds for defense sector. A 1/3rd of TSP GDP support will mean 5% of Federal resources. I am not involved in defense "expenditure" accounts. Those who are knowledgeable her can comment. My general exposure to financial theory and national economics says, that 5% is too high to squander on floating of an external entity of dubious strategic value.

RayC and others with expertise of defence expenditures can perhaps look into this and comment. If sensitive, we can take in GDF. O.w. we can leave it here.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 17 Oct 2009 03:20

Acharya wrote
Do you think Indians want to be slaves again?

Well that will be dependent on what is considered by the concerned party as "slavery". Also the the relative costs in that perception of being a "slave" and the cost of refusing to be a "slave" and therefore being "penalized". The penalty could be anything from loss of power, land, money to even chastisement within existing legal framework for "deviations" which were necessary to come to political power in the first place.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 17 Oct 2009 04:50

RayC,
I cannot reply to your private messages. That feature is locked.

I started out as a youngster with total scepticism. I doubted everything. But this also meant that I doubted those criticized the epics and puranas as total figments of imagination without having any element of historical veracity. Searching deeper, I found that most of the times, the "rationalist" critique of the classics was itself based on high doses of irrationality.

I see that in many "rationalists" an erroneous interpretation of sceince as a method leads to relacement of blind faith in a religion with equally blind and unthinking reliance on fragments of scientific statements. Thus in such minds, science simply becomes an equally fanatic replacement of the tenets of absolute belief. Such people fail to realize that by its very nature science itself is just a method that continuously self-corrects. There is no final "solution" or "truth" in science. When we use science as a shield to hold onto particular beliefs thats equivalent to religion.

Many of the criticisms, doubts, etc placed about Bharatyia classics stem from so-called scientific investigations which are themselves based on crucial assumptions which in turn are not verifiable always. You may not be surprised to know that most of the time the historians who claim sole authority and expertise of interpretation themselves never state their basic assumptions.

For example dating is a combination of archaeological and linguistic back calculation in the really ancient period. Both of these fields are based on crucial assumptions which often themselves start from assumptions or theories put forward by older or previous historians. The linguistic dating so crucial to an AMT (Aryan migration theory) is actually based on a historian's assumption that Indo-European languages in India derived from the Hittite. Then mutation rates of languages are extrapolated from current observations and assumed to have been constant over large histroical periods and multitudes of societies. Even these models will appear quite funny and highly restrictive with unverifiable and arbitrary axiomatic starting points to any trained mathematician or modeler. To be fair those who fisrt develoiped such models did not have the cumulative mathematical and statistical experise now available.

But my essential point is that science never claims that it has arrived at the final answer. For observation dependent fields, it simply states that such and such hypothesis can be supported or not supported given current knowledge and data. It does not state that this hypothesis will continue to be supported or not supported forever into the future. Historians who reject every bit of historicity in the Bharatyia classics typically do this based on incomplete or fragmentary data which they interpret without always properly understanding the scientific or logical methods used and their limitations, and the crucial nature of the assumptions on which these methods and theories are based. Once they interpret, they try to install their own interpretations based on this incomplete and erroneous understanding of their "scientific" tools as inviolable "truths".

This is not rationalism - but a new form of fanatical faith and dogma. Here one form of the religious mind has been replaced by another. I simply ask that the basic principle in Bharatyia philosophy is that of "charaibeti" or never becoming stationary - forever be in quest, which is perfectly aligned to modern science. Thus scepticism is healthy when applied to the classics - and equally healthy when applied to critiques of historicity of the classics.

Once the floodgates of scepticism are opened, why should it be restricted only to claims in the classical texts? Why should it not also be extended to those who have declared such texts to be a-historical and of dubious veracity and their methods and conclusions?

I mean historians and other "rationalists" - not anyone in particular. True scientific spirit is entirely consistent with what my impression of the Upanishads and Vedanta as a method, has been. This means doubting and re-exploring ALL past wisdoms - including those that have doubted and dismissed the classics.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 17 Oct 2009 05:03

I see that in many "rationalists" an erroneous interpretation of sceince as a method leads to relacement of blind faith in a religion with equally blind and unthinking reliance on fragments of scientific statements. Thus in such minds, science simply becomes an equally fanatic replacement of the tenets of absolute belief. Such people fail to realize that by its very nature science itself is just a method that continuously self-corrects. There is no final "solution" or "truth" in science. When we use science as a shield to hold onto particular beliefs thats equivalent to religion.

Agreed. Science leads to ideology.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 18 Oct 2009 10:56

D Roy wrote:
I see that in many "rationalists" an erroneous interpretation of sceince as a method leads to relacement of blind faith in a religion with equally blind and unthinking reliance on fragments of scientific statements. Thus in such minds, science simply becomes an equally fanatic replacement of the tenets of absolute belief. Such people fail to realize that by its very nature science itself is just a method that continuously self-corrects. There is no final "solution" or "truth" in science. When we use science as a shield to hold onto particular beliefs thats equivalent to religion.
Agreed. Science leads to ideology.

And ideology leads to oblivion of free thought!

The circle is complete.

Re-enters the religious bigotry.

Science can be perceived. Nature can be perceived. Religion and Religious morality cannot be checked since we cannot transcend time and leap backwards. And if we do not interpret religious truism and Gospel with contemporary time, then we shall be ensconced in a time wrap that many accuse Islam of being!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Oct 2009 17:57

The Seistan-Baluchistan sector is being activated. With killing of important commanding officers of Revolutionary Guards here, it is quite possible that USA is now engaging the Iranian regime from Balochistan. This would indicate that they are going ahead with making the Balochs a base for the future. I had speculated on the importance of this corridor to secure alternative routes north/control smuggling routes that supply the Talebs - from the sea.

Resistance from the Iranian portion of the Balochs have been a constant feature, although it never really caught the world news headlines. The fact that it is doing so, implies that the west is not averse to using the Sunni based terror groups now trying to take over and utilize the Baloch nationalists.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Oct 2009 19:26

NHK, A Japanese news channel reported on the Japanese PM's recent personal visit to AFG to verify on-spot the status. Japan is involved int two aspects here - one, refuelling in the IO for operations into AFG and humanitarian work. The new PM said he will consider carefully the renewal possibilities for refuelling once the current contract runs out in December.

What I found interesting was, that a Japanese expert from the energy research institute actually warned repeatedly that the current offensive may actually rollback with negative consequences for the TSP gov. This appears to be in line with what I anticipate has a very high degree of probability.