Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - November 06, 2009

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 22 Dec 2009 17:47

What a waste of precious human life in Pisshour..so sad

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2009 18:45

Suppiah wrote:What a waste of precious human life in Pisshour..so sad

Purushapura to be precise.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2009 19:24

arun wrote: By Arwa Damon, CNN
December 21, 2009 9:37 p.m. EST …………………..

At Zara's school we also meet 10-year-old Qainat. We ask her what she likes to do.

"I like to do painting and I like to ..." she pauses and looks away. "But I don't like America because she is so bad, and also India."

From here: CNN

Watch the video on the page

1) That Qainat kid says "I doon't like America becas she is soo bad, and Lon.. and alsoo La.. Injia"

I would like to download that video clip and do a frame by frame analysis. I think the girl has said "London" after America, but it has been edited out and spliced.

2) That's a RAPE school. It is the equivalent of the type of school that we BRFites might send our kids in a city. Hardly a government school or even an "average" school. Look at the classrooms and architecture.

3) Reporter Arwa Damon. Amirkhan father, Lebanese mother.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 19:40

Shiv-ji,
This section appears between 1:50 and 1:56. The tape is not spliced. I noted the movement of the hair strands of the girl, they are continous throughout. She is just a confused pakistani girl. Probably doesn't even know that london is a country or city or a place.

The fact that these two girls were chosen for interviews shows that their abbujaan is well connected. While the little girl's family seems to be westernized, the older girl's (amreeka-lon-india) abbujaan and home environment seems to be somewhat rustic. Most likely these are fauji / bureaucrat's kids

______________________________________________________________________________________________

But yes every pakistani kid knows that Amreeka and India and jews and hindus are 'bad'.

When this kid gets into her teen years, she will be educated with the concept of Jihad, even in that high socioeconomic class school, and demonstrate patriotism - Patriotism in pakistan means hating India (And being suspicious of umreeka).

The poor government schools and the madarsas will be talking extreme Jihad and that the hindoo/yahood/maseehi need to be dealt with by the muslims. Crazy stupid stories like when the angry muslim with his sword in his hand will attack the jew, the stones and trees will say "there is a jew hiding behind me, come and kill him" and one particular type of plant will not say this.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Dec 2009 19:42

We are Equal Equal but More Equal
Watch the key words and phrases.

Pakistan-India relations

The partition was stained with bloodletting, and that still continues in one form or the other. But what is more unfortunate is that instead of taking a joint and firm stance against the pestilence of terrorism the leaders of the two countries are engaged in scoring points. Equal-equal

During the last over 60 years no serious effort has been made from either side for creating a peaceful and friendly atmosphere between the two countries. And if such an effort is made, it is badly sabotaged by terrorists (not withstanding the fact that one of the two nations in question is a designated terror supporter). The biggest problem of Pakistan and India is the plague of terrorism in whose clutches the two countries are badly caught.Equal-equal

India must realise the fact that Kashmir is the major cause of unrest in the region. And due to this cause both countries have gone to battlefields against each other for three times. (here's where the writer changes tactic and starts to blame the omni-present enemy, India, for the unequalness of the equal-equal)

(Therefore)So this issue must be resolved according to UN resolutions.(Chakwal Logic)

The menace of terrorism, the problem of poverty, and the dilemma of illiteracy put the same griefs in their lap. Whenever an untoward incident occurs in either country, the people of both countries get affected. Their more inscrutable problem is that they can’t have an easy access to meet their kith and kin living across the border.(back to equal equal)

Pakistan is fighting its first real and epic war against determined fundamentalists who have nothing to do with Islam. This force of the barbarians is not only the arch enemy of Pakistan and India but is an arch foe of the whole world too.(Equal equal on a grander scale)

And India must help Pakistan in every possible manner to trounce this arch enemy. And this is only possible when Pakistan and India resume the dialogue process. Both countries badly need each other’s help in this pivotal task.(Here's where its begins: Equal equal but more equal)

Now having got a decisive mandate, Congress is again at the helm in India . It should try its best to bring peace in the region and in lieu of this Pakistani government should speed up its investigation in the Mumbai rampage so that the enemies of humanity could be brought to book. (So, although equal equal, India must do more)

The leadership of both countries should take a pity on the predicament of their people and should realise the value of humanity.

NABEEL ANWAR

Chakwal

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Dec 2009 19:47

That's a RAPE school. It is the equivalent of the type of school that we BRFites might send our kids in a city.

Shiv ji, a little surprised here. But the education for a RAPE kid and a normal middle class Indian family kid in a metro here is way different specially considering we focus on religious equality and tolerance. The seeds of hatred are well planted in Paki school text books. I am quite certain RAPE schools in Pakistan do not dole out any kind of secular/ rational education, certainly not as far as Hindu's or India/ Indian history is concerned.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 22 Dec 2009 19:51

Harbans-ji,
The pakistanis have a curriculum where they expect the kids to demonstrate leanings towards jihad, how to be a good muslim, two nation theory, etc etc. These guys talk of how Islam originated in arabia and came to la la land by Mohd bin Qasim. Not much mention at all of the freedom struggle from the british. Only djinna, Iqbal, direct action day, and babar/abdali stuff in their curriculum.

As innocuous as any of this might sound, none of this is free from pakistan's convoluted ideology and thought process. The result is that the well educated pakistanis are MORE likely to be the planners and handlers of terrorist attacks and the poor madarsa educated ones are likely to be suicide bombers.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Dec 2009 20:07

If a Xth Grade Biology textbook prescribed by the Education Ministry to mainstream schools talks of jihad and if the Education Minister's house is torched because she wanted references to jihad to be removed from that textbook and she is dismissed later from the cabinet while the jihad references are retained and she is forced to admit that 'she is also a fundamentalist', that country is way beyond redemption.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 22 Dec 2009 20:13

That Qainat video is definitely tampered at the 'Lon..Indeeaah' point. Focus away from the face & you can catch the video shake at just that moment.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Dec 2009 20:17

SSridhar wrote:...she is dismissed later from the cabinet while the jihad references are retained and she is forced to admit that 'she is also a fundamentalist', that country is way beyond redemption.

Wah wah. Yeh dil maange more.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2009 20:52

harbans wrote:That's a RAPE school. It is the equivalent of the type of school that we BRFites might send our kids in a city.

Shiv ji, a little surprised here. But the education for a RAPE kid and a normal middle class Indian family kid in a metro here is way different specially considering we focus on religious equality and tolerance. The seeds of hatred are well planted in Paki school text books. I am quite certain RAPE schools in Pakistan do not dole out any kind of secular/ rational education, certainly not as far as Hindu's or India/ Indian history is concerned.

No No saaar. They don't have ICSE or CBSE either. That is not what I mean. I mean look at the neatly dressed kids, uniforms, ties, desks, decor etc. That is typical of schools for the relatively wealthy. Not talking about curriculum.

You can find a hajaar pics of mango man Indian schools but show me one pic of mango man Paki school. They are either blown up, or are madrassas or they don't exist. Pakis can't/won't show em. That Lebanese woman is doing psy ops for Pakistan

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Dec 2009 21:01

Gagan wrote:............... But yes every pakistani kid knows that Amreeka and India and jews and hindus are 'bad'.

When this kid gets into her teen years, she will be educated with the concept of Jihad, even in that high socioeconomic class school, and demonstrate patriotism - Patriotism in pakistan means hating India (And being suspicious of umreeka).

The poor government schools and the madarsas will be talking extreme Jihad and that the hindoo/yahood/maseehi need to be dealt with by the muslims. Crazy stupid stories like when the angry muslim with his sword in his hand will attack the jew, the stones and trees will say "there is a jew hiding behind me, come and kill him" and one particular type of plant will not say this.

That is something the RAPE will keep denying as it would play havoc with their visa prospects. As Daood Gilani aka David Coleman Headley saga has shown, for the RAPE class, Jihad with a bit of haraam activities on the side is pretty acceptable.

See this excerpt from Moeed Yusuf’s October 2008 paper “Prospects of Youth Radicalization in Pakistan: Implications for U.S. Policy” published by Brookings:

Madrassah students seem to be pro-jihad, an outlook they justify in their interpretation of Islam. Students of Urdu-medium schools are relatively more tolerant and less attuned to the idea of jihad, but still maintain greater acceptance of these phenomena than do students of elite private schools. Children of the elite, however, are highly dismissive of their Urdu medium counterparts and intolerant of young rural men, especially those from lower socio-economic backgrounds or with madrassah backgrounds. A sizable segment from within the elite schools is attuned to the western way of life and considers itself superior and more progressive than the rest. This segment has gradually isolated itself from the majority of Pakistani young adults and remains completely oblivious to the latter’s experiences.

And that is despite the admission that in Pakistan’s “tri-partite system” for education the the hate mongering part of the syllabus is one and the same for all :

[English-speaking] private sector ……………. schools are also bound by the state to follow similar syllabi in subjects such as Pakistan Studies …………

See here: Prospects of Youth Radicalization in Pakistan: Implications for U.S. Policy

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 22 Dec 2009 21:14

arun. in the PDF you've posted

I would like to thank Stephen P. Cohen for helping
me conceptualize the idea and mentoring
the project and Ejaz Hadier

Ej-Ass Haider is the TSPA's monica and Uneven needs no introduction.

Readers should keep that in mind.

Youth specific interventions by the U.S. should include

Revising U.S. visa and immigration policies
for young Pakistanis in order to provide them
with a constructive outlet, perhaps through
a formal protocol that allows disproportional
access to young Pakistani citizens belonging
to lower socio-economic classes.

Broader measures by the U.S. that bear relevance to
young Pakistanis should include:
• Playing a constructive role in nudging India
and Pakistan towards normalization. Barring
normalization, Pakistan will be tempted to
maintain a link with extremists, which in turn
will allow the militant enclave to continue operating
and recruiting young men from Pakistani
society.

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Dec 2009 21:25

Vivek,

Then there is this excerpt as well from the PDF I posted

:

At the very least, the Indian presence in Kabul must be curtailed to pacify Pakistani fears of Indian encirclement.

In Pakistani eyes, in the end India always has some role to play in fixing things, however seemingly remote a connection might appear, that have gone wrong in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2009 22:02

derkonig wrote:That Qainat video is definitely tampered at the 'Lon..Indeeaah' point. Focus away from the face & you can catch the video shake at just that moment.

Dead right. I downloaded the video and looked at that part frame by frame.There is a dark strip on the right that marks a door. That strip is totally motionless except for a little lateral jump just at that Lon-India spot.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2009 22:04

WSJ book recos.

n Other Rooms, Other Wonders

by Daniyal Mueenuddin

W.W. Norton, 247 pages, $23.95
[book]

It's not often that a jacket flap describes an author as a graduate of Yale Law School currently living on a farm in Pakistan's South Punjab. But one paragraph of Daniyal Mueenuddin's rhythmic, precise and sentient prose leads the rationale for this collection way beyond mere biography.

Except for the pretentious title, there's not a false note in these stories -- all linked to the estate of a single feudal overlord, where the lives of poor underlings seem to be told from inner desperation out. In this powerful assertion of fiction's ability to illuminate worlds ignored by headlines, the brief "About a Burning Girl" tells more about corruption than a zillion statistics. Forget cheap exoticism, Muslim exceptionalism or gimmicky plots when it comes to this patient witnessing of loveless -- if surprisingly sexy -- lives ruled by endless debt (monetary and emotional). Mr. Mueenuddin is for real and so is his Pakistan.

---

Politics

Listening to Grasshoppers: Field Notes on Democracy

by Arundhati Roy

Hamish Hamilton, 256 pages, $25

View Full Image
book
book
book

With her instinctive opposition to globalization, Ms. Roy offers a decided contrast to Mr. Roach's corporate perspective. Though she burst onto the literary scene with a cutesy novel, "The God of Small Things," she has since reverted to a muckraking tradition inherited from her mother, a famed Indian feminist. Unfortunately, the results have been largely humorless sermons strictly for the already converted.

In this latest collection, however, Ms. Roy reins in her self-described "feral rant" and aims her barbs effectively. Some references may seem too local -- immediate reactions to Indian Supreme Court rulings, for example -- but they grow out of a universal question: "What happens when democracy has been...hollowed out and emptied of meaning?" Rising to the defense of workers against multinationals and to persecuted Muslims, Kashmiris and Armenians -- even suicide bombers -- she shatters the comfortable assumptions of the neoliberal, free-market worldview. References to India as the "world's largest democracy" will never sound quite the same.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Dec 2009 23:02

It's all your fault

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Tuesday said, as the monster of militants and extremists was created by the international community in the past to fight the rival ideology, it was their responsibility to help Pakistan in this fight and contain its negative fallout on the country.

More over, dus percenti went on to say:

The Great One said that Pakistan attaches great importance to its relations with France and stressed on comprehensive up-gradation of bilateral ties with enhanced trade, investments, sustainable market access and deeper mutual cooperation in other areas that could prove beneficial for both the countries.

Market access? What does pukistan have to offer that is sustainable?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Dec 2009 23:24

That picture says it all.

Can one imagine MMS receiving a westerner in fatigues, in his office?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 22 Dec 2009 23:30

^ Pakistan is a martial nation. it deals with only martial men.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Dec 2009 23:44

pgbhat wrote:^ Pakistan is a martial nation. it deals with only martial men.

Are you saying they are engaged in martial affair?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 22 Dec 2009 23:57

extra-martial affairs.

Pakistan bombings by Taliban hit lower classes hardest

The rich and powerful, meanwhile, can secure first-rate protection. And Pakistanis with money and foreign passports have the option of moving abroad – not an easy decision to make, but a reassuring escape hatch.

Security 2000, a leading firm which claims PepsiCo and CNN among its clients, sends mostly ex-Special Forces with at least 15 years of experience to protect its executives and pays them $200 to $300 a month, says Maj. (R.) Junaid Iqbal, general manager of the firm's executive protection program.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Dec 2009 02:18

sanjaykumar wrote: Can one imagine MMS receiving a westerner in fatigues, in his office?

Hup , don't you know Zardari is kinky he has a thing for cammo.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 23 Dec 2009 04:29

Russel Peters On Pakistanis
Enjoy!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 23 Dec 2009 04:37

Brit Paki with identity crisis

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 23 Dec 2009 05:26

Singha wrote:WSJ book recos.

n Other Rooms, Other Wonders

by Daniyal Mueenuddin

W.W. Norton, 247 pages, $23.95
[book]

It's not often that a jacket flap describes an author as a graduate of Yale Law School currently living on a farm in Pakistan's South Punjab. But one paragraph of Daniyal Mueenuddin's rhythmic, precise and sentient prose leads the rationale for this collection way beyond mere biography.

Except for the pretentious title, there's not a false note in these stories -- all linked to the estate of a single feudal overlord, where the lives of poor underlings seem to be told from inner desperation out. In this powerful assertion of fiction's ability to illuminate worlds ignored by headlines, the brief "About a Burning Girl" tells more about corruption than a zillion statistics. Forget cheap exoticism, Muslim exceptionalism or gimmicky plots when it comes to this patient witnessing of loveless -- if surprisingly sexy -- lives ruled by endless debt (monetary and emotional). Mr. Mueenuddin is for real and so is his Pakistan.

---

I'm reading Mueenuddin's book currently. It is quite well written - very matter of fact in describing the lives of the 'underlings' without getting too maudlin.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 23 Dec 2009 07:24

Lalmohan wrote:btw - the mention of learning jehadi rehabilitation from the saudis is not a joke (although a good potential one). the saudi's have spent some time and effort to wean back the errant youth who headed off to eye-rack. not sure if its actually been successful, but it was certainly reported in the media

It hasn't worked as well as the Saudis claim, but it hasnt worked as badly as releasing jihadis from Guantanamo.

Basically involves convincing these guys that
a) the people they listened to didnt have the right Islamic credentials to lead jihad, and that jihad has hurt rather than helped Muslims
b) they can re-enter society and hope for a normal life - in other words there is a way out other than martyrdom

Obviously it works better on lower level cadre, the people who drifted in to jihad, or who find that jihad isnt what they expected. The Yemenis do something similar

The way its worked in Egypt, Libya, Algeria etc has been different. Most of the high level jihadi cadre were arch-idealists who believed they were going to save their societies. After a decade plus in prison have started to ask themselves whether they were wrong - where is the jihadi victory they were so sure God would deliver? Allah can not be wrong, so perhaps it is their understanding that was wrong. Their leadership were often very bright young men who rebelled against their own very privileged, very well educated families.

Ironically 9-11 has accelerated this process of self-questioning - they generally see the decision to attack America on home soil as proof of just how self-destructive the salafi jihadi community had become. Most of them have retreated from takfiri positions, seeing them as failed ideas that damaged their societies without damaging the secular dictatorships they opposed.

Of course those from these local Arab jihadi movements who reject such ideas (usually the ones who fled arrest and never went back) have integrated ever more tightly with Al-Qaeda, and deepened their commitment to global jihad. For a while from 2003-2006 it seemed like the exiled minority/dissident jihadi leadership's pull on Arab youth was growing thanks to Iraq, but its cut back for a number of reasons - the Salafi jihadis bloodthirstiness in killing Muslims, including Sunnis for one thing, and their fallout with the Sunni Arab tribes of Iraq for another. Either way they no longer seemed like such wonderful protectors of Muslims/Sunnis/Arabs.

Pakistan and Afghanistan are on a different trajectory from the Arab world right now. Commitment to global jihad in the Arab world is waning, but its still growing in Pakistan. That is because Pakistan are only now experiencing what the Arabs of various countries have already experienced - the force of jihadi inspired fitna and civil war.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Dec 2009 07:31

December 1971 revisited ---- Dr. A Q Khan

I had completed my PhD thesis in October 1971 and submitted it for its defence. Meanwhile, I was preparing research papers for publication and editing a book. Along with many others, I believed that it was necessary to move against the subversive elements being supported by India. As facts slowly emerged from TV and newspaper sources, a dilemma arose. I had seen the army officers and jawans in 1958 when Gen Ayub Khan had taken over and had witnessed the respect they received. Now I was seeing with my own eyes the massacre of our Muslim brethren in East Pakistan. I was shocked to see pictures of dead, mutilated bodies and, worst of all, half-eaten bodies of children being dragged around by wild dogs.

Later I read in the papers that the Pakistani army had rounded up about 100 Bengali intellectuals, shot them and then buried them in a mass grave in the suburbs of Dacca (Dhaka). Many other atrocious incidents came to light and were described by eyewitnesses. I had difficulty in believing it all, but later, when I came to Pakistan, I heard from colleagues who had been there that most of those stories were more or less true. I was deeply ashamed.

It was this defeat and the Indian nuclear explosions of 1974 that directly led to my return to Pakistan. My family and I had been coming to Pakistan on holiday in December every year. On our visit in 1974 I discussed the possibility with Mr Z A Bhutto of realising his dream of making Pakistan a nuclear power. Plans were finalised to begin the groundwork for the project. When we came in December 1975, Mr Bhutto requested me to remain in Pakistan, as he felt I was the only person who could accomplish this work.

Details of my giving up an excellent job, the hardships my family faced, the obstructions put in my way, the professional jealousy that arose are all well recorded. Thanks to Allah's blessings and with the hard work and dedication put in by my team, Pakistan became a nuclear and missile power within a relatively short span of time. My technological knowledge was worth billions of dollars for which I received no more than a meagre salary every month. Seeing what I have received in return since, it sometimes makes me wonder if it was worth it. Not only was the technology supplied by me, but Pakistan had not signed the NPT or the NSG. Nonetheless, I have been branded and projected and treated like a traitor. Unfortunately, this achievement has not turned out to be a turning point in the history of our country, as had been hoped.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 23 Dec 2009 07:44

WASHINGTON DIARY: The gravity of the problem —Dr Manzur Ejaz

After we were settled, he asked me as to what was going on in Pakistan and if the military could eliminate the Taliban insurgency. I told him that I was reasonably optimistic that the military will prevail because it was their creation. In the past, the military was not confronting them sincerely because of their misplaced fairytale policy of getting strategic depth in Afghanistan. Now, the military has learnt the lesson as suicide bombings kill people near the capital of Islamabad. I further added that I hope investors like you can return to Pakistan, and ended my explanation with a smile.

“No, you are wrong here. I hope your optimism is realistic as far as the Taliban are concerned. But the Western investors are not going to return to Pakistan even then. Investors were avoiding Pakistan even before the Taliban threat and they will remain so even after the Taliban are gone. Pakistan has multiple problems that repulse the foreigners, whether they are investors or tourists,” he told me.

“I know there is immense corruption in Pakistan and foreigners do not know how to deal with it. But so are most of the developing countries where the US and European investors and tourists readily go. What is special about Pakistan other than this?” I asked.
He became a little frustrated and impatient and promptly busted out “No, this is where Pakistanis do not get it. We all know about corruption in the developing world and we know how to deal with it and make money. But Pakistan’s problem is Islamisation and restrictions on personal liberties and most aspects of entertainment that we consider a necessary part of life. Why would we go to a prison-like country to make money when we have better choices all around? Why not to go to India or China where we can make money and enjoy life as we like to.”

He became a little frustrated and impatient and promptly busted out “No, this is where Pakistanis do not get it. We all know about corruption in the developing world and we know how to deal with it and make money. But Pakistan’s problem is Islamisation and restrictions on personal liberties and most aspects of entertainment that we consider a necessary part of life. Why would we go to a prison-like country to make money when we have better choices all around? Why not to go to India or China where we can make money and enjoy life as we like to.”

I could not fully appreciate his highly negative characterisation of Pakistan and could not resist rebutting in pointing out: “If you are talking about unavailability of alcohol, you as foreigners can buy it from any five-star hotel. Oh, and if you are talking about other entertainment, that is also arranged easily.” To keep the atmosphere pleasant, I joked, “By creating some hurdles in your way, we provide you the chance to save some money.”

He was more upset now and almost yelling “You guys will never understand us. We make money to spend it not like you guys who earn to horde. This is why we progressed and you did not.” He went on, “To answer your take on alcohol and so-called other entertainment by which you probably meant prostitutes, I will say we are neither addicted to alcohol or prostitutes. We enjoy these things as you enjoy tea and company. The difference may be that we have female friends along with males, which is rare in your societies. Buying alcohol from five-star hotels feels just like stealing and drinking like thieves. We want to go out to bars of different kinds where we can see and meet different types of people and enjoy their company for a while.”

I was more perplexed than ever and did not know how to respond to him. After having lived three decades in the West I knew what he was talking about. But for face saving I threw my last argument, “Pakistan is not the only ideological state. Israel, Saudi Arabia and some others are ideological too and you do business in those countries.”

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 23 Dec 2009 08:05

pgbhat wrote:December 1971 revisited ---- Dr. A Q Khan

Amazing Lahori logic. The guy learns about the atrocities of the Pakistan army. He claims to be ashamed by these acts. And what does he do? He steals critical nuclear enrichment technology to enable that very same army to build nuclear weapons and blackmail the world. So that future genocides and other crimes perpetrated by that army could not be prevented by anybody ever again!

(Sorry, cannot avoid the smiley)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2009 08:27

pgbhat wrote:WASHINGTON DIARY: The gravity of the problem —Dr Manzur Ejaz

I threw my last argument, “Pakistan is not the only ideological state. Israel, Saudi Arabia and some others are ideological too and you do business in those countries.”

He laughed whole-heartedly and said, “Thank you. I was expecting this excuse much earlier. This is a favourite excuse Pakistanis use. But let me tell you that Israel may be too cruel for Palestinians, but it is an open society like any European nation. Saudi Arabia can afford any ideology because of its oil wealth and tribal society. Furthermore, not many investors go there except oil companies and the Saudis have created free zones for foreigners that Pakistan cannot. Your society is very poor but relatively open-minded. You can neither feed them like Saudi Arabia nor create islands for foreigners because society is very vocal. You are stuck by imposing an ideology that you cannot afford. Therefore, you will remain stuck even after the Taliban are gone. And, the worst part is that even intelligent people like you do not appreciate the gravity of the problem.”

Pakistan ka matlab kya? La illlah il Allah!

And cheers to that.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Dec 2009 09:05

pgbhat wrote:WASHINGTON DIARY: The gravity of the problem —Dr Manzur Ejaz

I particularly liked the very last sentence.

I did not know what to say and decided to move the conversation to Obama’s healthcare plan instead.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Dec 2009 09:18

Teresita Schaffer in a Christian Science Monitor OpEd:

US-Pakistan partnership: Make it work for both sides

When Pakistan signed up for the US-led campaign against terrorism in the anxious days following 9/11, the two partners, as in the past, had objectives that overlapped – but only in part. Pakistan, like the United States, saw Al Qaeda as a danger to the world. But its other objectives were not shared by the US.

As it had when it worked with the US during the cold war, Islamabad hoped to bolster its rivalry with India through US power. Pakistan wanted to enhance its influence, and eliminate India’s, in Afghanistan. These goals were more important for Pakistan than the US objective of ending the Taliban regime and putting extremist groups out of business.

Pakistan has a long history of manipulating its American ally by calculating the minimum necessary action to lower Washington’s anxiety.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Dec 2009 09:36

Manzour Ejaz has invented a fictional westerner to voice his personal doubts, not that there is anything wrong with that (I wonder if English has a word for this).

I find it very hard to believe an American would be so sophisticated in Indic ways as to observe

We make money to spend it not like you guys who earn to horde. This is why we progressed and you did not.” He went on, “To answer your take on alcohol and so-called other entertainment by which you probably meant prostitutes, I will say we are neither addicted to alcohol or prostitutes. We enjoy these things as you enjoy tea and company.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Dec 2009 09:40

^^^ Agree with sanjaykr's observation above. Does seem like more evidence for RAPEs wetting their pants at the prospect of being sht out of polite society even in the west, thx to the escapades of the Headley types. None cvan be trusted and few anymore buy RAPE BS at face value. Tch tch. Too bad, I guess.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Dec 2009 09:42

Kapil Komireddi in a Boston Globe OpEd:

The problem of Pakistan

By Kapil Komireddi | December 23, 2009

FOR NEARLY A decade, Washington has paid billions of dollars to buy the illusion of stability in Pakistan and then sent thousands of soldiers to face the reality of its instability in neighboring Afghanistan. Rather than break from this failed policy, President Obama’s revised strategy for Afghanistan affirmed it. The US will intensify its ongoing effort to cauterize the cancer of terrorism in Afghanistan without confronting the source of the disease: Pakistan. ………………

By aggravating the crisis and refusing to cooperate, Pakistan aims to make the US mission in Afghanistan desperately reliant upon its support. In return for its indispensable cooperation, Islamabad seeks to extract a price from Washington: Kashmir.……………

Far from buying peace, Kashmir’s acquisition by Pakistan will be seen as a major victory by the Islamists. As events in Swat proved, concessions to Islamists do not result in the recession of terrorism: they embolden them to embark upon even more audacious campaigns. Yielding to Pakistan’s blackmail would pit the United States against India in order to appease forces both these secular democracies ought to be collectively confronting. …………………..

If Obama’s objective ……………….. is to defeat the thinking that produced 9/11, then he must confront - rather than bribe - Pakistan’s establishment. Instead of hailing Pakistan as a “partner’’ in the fight against the Taliban - which, apart from everything else, is a gross insult to the coalition forces which are fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, and to the Afghan people upon whom Pakistan foisted the Taliban - Obama should authorize American forces to dismantle Taliban safe havens in Baluchistan and Pakistan’s northwestern regions. ……………………..

Bostan Globe

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Dec 2009 10:15

Travellers' Tales

This personal issue underlines the larger problem faced by all Pakistanis when they seek to travel abroad. A large number of bad experiences have made our passports noxious in the eyes of other nations. Issues ranging from illegal immigration to drug smuggling to extremist terrorism have caused much of the international community to view travellers from our shores with suspicion.

Talking of extremism, I was bemused recently by the sight of large bearded men blocking the aisle and access to the galley and toilet in a Sri Lankan Airways flight as they spread out mats and knelt and bowed in prayer. It was bad enough when the small club class section was thus used as a flying mosque, but when passengers from economy seats began encroaching, people complained to the staff.

Apparently, these devout Pakistanis were members of the Tablighi Jamaat; one of them, no doubt taking me for a Sri Lankan, suggested in English that I study Islam. I was so annoyed by this time that I told him rather brusquely in Urdu that I did not need his advice or guidance.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 23 Dec 2009 10:26

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/1 ... ml#photo37

does such barbarity exist in pakiland?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Dec 2009 10:45

SSridhar wrote:Travellers' Tales
This personal issue underlines the larger problem faced by all Pakistanis when they seek to travel abroad. A large number of bad experiences have made our passports noxious in the eyes of other nations. Issues ranging from illegal immigration to drug smuggling to extremist terrorism have caused much of the international community to view travellers from our shores with suspicion.

Talking of extremism, I was bemused recently by the sight of large bearded men blocking the aisle and access to the galley and toilet in a Sri Lankan Airways flight as they spread out mats and knelt and bowed in prayer. It was bad enough when the small club class section was thus used as a flying mosque, but when passengers from economy seats began encroaching, people complained to the staff.

Apparently, these devout Pakistanis were members of the Tablighi Jamaat; one of them, no doubt taking me for a Sri Lankan, suggested in English that I study Islam. I was so annoyed by this time that I told him rather brusquely in Urdu that I did not need his advice or guidance.

I had a similar bad experience at the training facilities of a major european airplane manufacturer.

Unpad porkis from the PIA on a short training course, turned up in salwar kameez, flowing beards complete with their skull caps, rudely interrupted their class to take unscheduled prayer breaks, picked fights with other nationalities trainees, abused the Indians and appropriated all the plastic lotas from the water coolers to use in the toilet.

Apparently the porkis will not use paper other than dawn or daily times to wipe with. Leaves and twigs were in short supply in keeping with the season.

We could not use the water coolers after that for three weeks until the buggers left, because we couldn't tell which plastic cups were haram or halal.

We should have more people to people contacts.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 23 Dec 2009 11:09

I don't tolerate any of these prayer bs in any of my factories. I don't give a fk if he/she is a Somali, Paki, Lebanese, Jordanian or Saudi. I don't give a quarter for any of their matress and prayers at all. I made it a point of letting all my partners and investors know of my policy. If things get crazy, I am willing to go all the way to the US Supreme Court to fight it out and I am willing to risk all the bad publicities that may accompany me. So far, the Lebanese (both Shites and Sunnis), the Jordanians and Syrians ....practically all the Arabs even without being told have kept their religions to themselves. The odd Paki approached my floor manager and requested permission to pray. He was told to put in a request in writing one month in advance and was told that a decision in his favor is not guaranteed. So far he had not made a written request. I have half a dozen Somalis working in various capacities. No request for prayers from them yet.

Reading about all the prayer request nonsense by Somalis especially in Minessota made me wonder why this had not occured in my plants. My guess is that these mofos are taking advantage of the white folks' naivety and ignorance/tolerance. Such things will not happen in my place. Just to show I am serious I have a couple of burly tattoed Uzbek-Israelis on the floor in supervisor position in the main factory. On top of it, I have a Jordanian to keep an eye on the Arabs. So far the only problems I have faced has been the credit crunch and market shrinkage.

If it was my airline, I would tell these mofos to roll up their prayer mattress and return to their seats and not leave at all. If they make any protest, I will make sure they are properly taken care of once the plane lands. These are not religious people. They do this just to show off that they are different and they do that as a sign if defiance. There is nothing spiritual or holy there.
Avram

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2009 11:22

Cross post from forum feedback thread

brihaspati wrote:
shiv wrote:We must be very ve-ry careful because we may hurt the feelings of those cute ickle non Paki Pakis when we accuse Pakis of Pakiness.
This is minority appeasement by Indians for Pakistan!
Isn't that the primary reason that is being "pontificated upon" from certain quarters on the forum - that we must be ve-ry careful becaue we may hurt the feelings of those cute ickle non-extremist members from that "one religion" when we accuse them blanketly of being "extremists"? Even if the context or analysis is merely trying to find out the motivations for extremism that seem to be inherent, and not being given up, and being followed faithfully as required in the core texts of that religion - even now! Even if there are apparent connections to the attacks or targeting of India - to the theology itself?

Brihaspati ji. I stated an opinion on that thread and my opinion will not change subject to discussion, rhetoric or semantics and I do not expect to change your views. I will therefore not continue this pointless (to me) discussion even if you reply to this.

You make what is (to me) an interesting connection. You are saying (in effect) that because Indians are required to be sensitive to Indian minority sentiment on BRF, we must also show similar sentiment regarding minorities in Pakistan.

Sir you are a mature, erudite and knowledgeable man (I am presuming the man part, apologies if you are not one). I am sure you know what you can do with minorities in India or Pakistan. You must have your reasons for holding your views and I respect everyone's right to hold any views although I may clearly state my disagreement which might sometimes be vehement. I do object to it when you ask if I or others on this forum should follow what you might want to do. We are, as I said earlier, going to disagree on this issue.

I am sorry for having responded to a post from you.