PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2012 02:56

^I don't think AMCA is realistic yet.. until LCA Mk-2 is delivered and IAF is happy, and sets out for Mk-3++ and there on. FGFA is more plausible owing to Russkie relationships.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2012 11:13

I feel Indian pilots will get involved only when FGFA starts flying which is couple of years from now.

Right now we have just invested couple of millions for development of infra and training centers and for designing the FGFA with HAL spearheading it once the IAF finalises on the design of FGFA/PMF which is atleast 2 years then real work would start on it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2012 19:33

What is in the technology agenda for FGFA.. the differences from PAK-FA? anyone?

Austin wrote:http://paralay.iboards.ru/download/file ... &mode=view

Wouldn't that pic TVC angle more for lift? considering the thrust-vectoring part alone?
may be I am wrong considering air-borne deflections.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Aug 2012 08:18

Both F-35 and T-50 are single-seaters. A second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15% apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity. Moreover, R&D costs could go up by another $2 billion for the twin-seater,

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19571

actually a wise decision, where that money can be invested into Kaveri or LCA++ techs

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Aug 2012 08:39

Hiten wrote:what are the black stripes around the PAK-FA's nose? They weren't there earlier. The prototype MiG-29K too had them.
Are they some sort of visual cue, to calibrate something?

Hi-Res
http://77rus.smugmug.com/Other/Other/i- ... /IMG03.jpg
http://77rus.smugmug.com/Other/Other/i- ... /IMG05.jpg
http://77rus.smugmug.com/Other/Other/i- ... /IMG04.jpg

via http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/464

similar to the rings in the nose of the navy's fulcrums.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 19 Aug 2012 09:36

Come on guys there is no need to panic !!!!

India and Russia going to sign biggest-ever defence deal worth $ 35 billion

NEW DELHI: India's quest for a futuristic stealth fifth-generation fighter, which will see the country spend around $35 billion over the next 20 years in its biggest-ever defence project, has zoomed into the decisive phase now.

India and Russia are getting all set to ink the full and final design or R&D phase contract for the 5th Gen fighter by this year-end or early-2013, say sources. It will again underline India's firm rejection of the US offer of its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II'.

Ahead of the R&D contract, under which India wants to induct over 200 stealth fighters from 2022 onwards, a senior team of Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) engineers and IAF experts is going to Russia within a fortnight to ensure that the "full documentation and other work" of the earlier preliminary design contract (PDC) has been completed.

During his visit to Moscow last week, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne reviewed the performance of the 5th Gen fighter, called Sukhoi T-50.

While the Indian fighter will primarily be based on the T-50, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements.

India had inked the $295 million PDC with Russia in December, 2010. The R&D contract on the anvil is pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

"The three Russian T-50 prototypes have flown around 180 sorties till now. HAL's Ozar facility at Nashik will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019...they will be flown by IAF test pilots," said a source.

"Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to us. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. So, India will have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019. HAL will subsequently begin manufacturing the fighters," he added.

Interestingly, after first specifying the requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat of these 5th Gen fighters, India is veering around to the view that it will go in for only single-cockpit jets now.

"Both F-35 and T-50 are single-seaters. A second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15% apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity. Moreover, R&D costs could go up by another $2 billion for the twin-seater," he said.

IAF is confident the swing-role fighter will meet its future operational needs.

As a critical interim measure and confronted with a declining number of fighter squadrons, IAF also wants the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to be sealed within this fiscal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2012 10:08

Interesting we are veering around all single seat fighter to avoid reducing stealth , range and increasing cost , Pilots would be happy with this news.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Aug 2012 13:07

SaiK wrote:I don't think raptor was designed for close combats. Kill the enemy before he can see you is their design mission., especially the electronic sensor package with passive tracking and scanning is all about raptor's advantage against pak-fa.

So, if pak-fa can dodge AAMs, then it can rule, but must carry an extended range OLS system.

The raptor was not apparently designed for the VR combat., but recent exercises and simulations show the aircraft is quite capable in this area too thanks to the high kinetic energy provided by the engines and TVC.The aircraft was apparently able to out maneouver the Eurofighter.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Aug 2012 13:11

First Indo-Russian FGFA aka PAK-fa to be unveiled in India by 2014

“The first prototype of the FGFA is scheduled to arrive in India by 2014 after which it will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base (Maharashtra)…We are hopeful that the aircraft would be ready for induction by 2022,” IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told a news agency.

Lungi Dance Guys

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Aug 2012 13:30

If it arrives in India in 2014 then the airframe, control laws and all the tech involved on materials is already decided. What's will Indian test pilots test? That the symbology on screens is in English?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 19 Aug 2012 13:42

gr8 news ....but does it mean that the engine will also be in the final config by 2014....
any news on it having a rectangular exhaust nozzle like the raptor....i don;t like the
current circular one.....

and please start testing with SU-47 color's on it the black one to make it look more

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 19 Aug 2012 13:43

JTull wrote:If it arrives in India in 2014 then the airframe, control laws and all the tech involved on materials is already decided. What's will Indian test pilots test? That the symbology on screens is in English?

There is a lot to test. And that too under varying conditions, in Rajasthan and high altitude airfields. The A/C is going to be a vanilla T50. So testing for stealth, flight envelope, handling under various conditions, interoprability with C4I, retrofitting armament which we have and developing, how it will fit into IAF's doctrine, endurance, ease of maintainability. Strategic and tactical use within IAF's doctrine.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see it being tested for the >600 parameters that we used for the MMRCA, suitably enhanced to reflect its higher class. And the feedback we have going back to the Rus for modifications.

And I would think, that the remaining two prototypes will incorporate these requirements, if and wherever possible, to make it a more suitable A/C. Last but not least, the IAF would also like to experience and study its maintainability.

The english translation? Google translate would do it.

j/k alert!!!

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Aug 2012 15:41

-- deleted -- perhaps not important.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2012 16:37

I'm afraid that the arrival of the FGFA prototype in India if it goes according to schedule by 2014 ,may spell doom for the LCA MK-2,which may not even have flown by then! Though comparing the two aircraft is as silly as comparing chalk to cheese ,and the costs too poles apart,the arrival of the 5th-gen FGFA will capture the imagination of the IAF far more than that of the 4+ gen LCA which is at least a decade late.When testing begins in India,the absence of such frontline cutting edge in the LCA will inevitably see our pilots and air staff comparing both fighters.Naturally the LCA with its limited tech capability when compared with the FGFA will inevitably in time seem less attractive,especially as newer upgraded versions of the JF-17 and other new Sino-Paki fighters enter the scenario.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 19 Aug 2012 18:02

^^I won't be so sure about that. A hands on experience with a fifth gen aircraft and the complexities and deficiencies presented by it will only make the IAF value the non-stealth aircraft even more. Besides, the talk of the demise of stealth technology is already in the air, even if it has a long way to go. So, giving up on non stealth fighters just yet might prove unwise in the long run. Platforms themselves last at least more than 30 years, while sensors and avionics have much shorter shelf-lives. Who knows if stealth might even be a big factor in 2050.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2012 19:14

The prototype we will get in 2014 is likely to be 1 of the 14 prototype that is planned for flight testing.

I think IAF will test the PAK-FA in Indian Environment like they did for MMRCA and provide the feedback to Sukhoi to fine tune the bird , since IAF would be inducting significant amount of PAK-FA in the initial phase.

In 2017 is the time we can expect the indo-russian FGFA to fly and that is the time we would get the version tailor made for IAF.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Aug 2012 19:57

India and Russia going to sign biggest-ever defence deal worth $ 35 billion

NEW DELHI: India's quest for a futuristic stealth fifth-generation fighter, which will see the country spend around $35 billion over the next 20 years in its biggest-ever defence project, has zoomed into the decisive phase now.

India and Russia are getting all set to ink the full and final design or R&D phase contract for the 5th Gen fighter by this year-end or early-2013, say sources. It will again underline India's firm rejection of the US offer of its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II'.

Ahead of the R&D contract, under which India wants to induct over 200 stealth fighters from 2022 onwards, a senior team of Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) engineers and IAF experts is going to Russia within a fortnight to ensure that the "full documentation and other work" of the earlier preliminary design contract (PDC) has been completed.

During his visit to Moscow last week, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne reviewed the performance of the 5th Gen fighter, called Sukhoi T-50.

While the Indian fighter will primarily be based on the T-50, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements.

India had inked the $295 million PDC with Russia in December, 2010. The R&D contract on the anvil is pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

"The three Russian T-50 prototypes have flown around 180 sorties till now. HAL's Ozar facility at Nashik will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019...they will be flown by IAF test pilots," said a source.

"Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to us. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. So, India will have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019. HAL will subsequently begin manufacturing the fighters," he added.

Interestingly, after first specifying the requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat of these 5th Gen fighters, India is veering around to the view that it will go in for only single-cockpit jets now.

"Both F-35 and T-50 are single-seaters. A second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15% apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity. Moreover, R&D costs could go up by another $2 billion for the twin-seater," he said.

IAF is confident the swing-role fighter will meet its future operational needs.

As a critical interim measure and confronted with a declining number of fighter squadrons, IAF also wants the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to be sealed within this fiscal.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Aug 2012 19:58

As per article India will get 3 aircraft's first one in 2014 , second in 2017 and third one in 2019 which might be final configuration aircraft since production will start by 2022 with Induction . 2015 Aero India will be awesome

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2012 20:07

with the 2 seater option being given up and the main stuff like internal bay, L-band and X-band AESA radar being Rus, 5th gen engine being Rus, airframe design being Rus, missiles being Rus at IOC --- I fail to understand what we are gaining from this project in design terms.

HAL will gain a huge production work - well they always do that whatever be the case.

we are gaining nothing much in weak areas like fighter aesa radar , stealth airframes and engines.

all I see is very little carryover for the challenges of the AMCA, and probably a quiet burial in due course.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 19 Aug 2012 20:07

any idea if the final config FGFA will have any components from Israel or France.....like the
ones Israel is putting in F-35....
picking the best technologies and putting them in FGFA will really make an awesome fighter....
IAF at 2025 with
200+ Super Su 30
200 Rafale
150 FGFA
150 Tejas MK 2
UCAVs
will be a handful for any airforce in the world

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Aug 2012 20:33

we are gaining the newspaper headlines that challenges the raptor! for $35b. period...in reality, it remains to be seen.

LCA Mk3 and Kaveri needs $5b more to establish the testing facilities ++. We don't need 200 Rafale, but 80 odd is enough as stop gap, if by 2014 the pak-fa arrives. Why waste $5b-10 on Rafale.. when many of its aesa radar tech is still below the par.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Aug 2012 21:15

dhiraj wrote:any idea if the final config FGFA will have any components from Israel or France.....like the
ones Israel is putting in F-35....
picking the best technologies and putting them in FGFA will really make an awesome fighter....
IAF at 2025 with
200+ Super Su 30
200 Rafale
150 FGFA
150 Tejas MK 2
UCAVs
will be a handful for any airforce in the world

OT , but then India s greatest threat will not be external.Better to wisely spend money and take care of its economy and its citizens as well

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 19 Aug 2012 21:35

i always here is this argument about internal threat and then about spending money wisely as we are poor...etc...etc....
now a couple of my counter-arguments on this :
1. the internal threats exists because of !!!!!!!!!! ...and can be easily wiped out the day
everyone unites and make it a point to do so.....
and i don;t disagree that we have to come out of the attitude of pulling one another down internally at the cost
of nation's growth....we just lost our 7th olympic medal in tennis this time because of that ....

2. regarding money spending wisely...we spend 2-3 % of GDP in defence..what about the remaining 97%...who prevents that
money not to be spent wisely....u take this 30 billion $ spent over 10 years (around 3billion$ per year) ....any guarantee that
it will not go again in corruption.....at least with this money we are getting access to 5th gen technology

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Aug 2012 21:51

SaiK sir, I think you may hav misread the article. We are just getting a prototype for testing in 2014. Rafale is essential for next 8-10 years.

More will be said in time as to what exactly India is doing in the R&D with Russia, but keep in mind strategic calculations as we need Russian support against PRC and we do that by these sort of program's and trade

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Aug 2012 22:54

I agree, but I would like similar pace for home grown techs.. it is mighty important to invest big time into indigenous techs even though it has many hiccups. All these, we have to factor into our budgeting., as at helm, we have poor techies looking at the strategic affairs pertaining to long term technology aspects for independence.

The point is there is no clear direction as to what areas we are to gain from FGFA tie ups.. the only thing big time we read is 30-35b.. they have added an additional 5billion.. and this addition will carry on for decade till it reaches $50b... I am not at ease at all when similar thoughts for homegrown techs are thrashed owing to technology gap or blaming the drdo setup.

Are you at same ease if I say $50b for LCA Mk2++ -> AMCA?.. then you would question many things.. and many DDM bandwagons just join in to thrash every honest approach we make. I want a balanced approach.. technology wise, we need to list out all things we are gaining here?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 19 Aug 2012 23:28

Hey....i need to understand one thing....when we say we are getting 100% TOT for Rafale or FGFA does it
mean that we can use the received technology on say Tejas or AMCA etc....or will the TOT be restricted only
for the Rafale or FGFA......
Assuming that we can use on other machines then we will be having 5th gen stealth , engine ...single crystal...
AESA tech etc isn't it from Rafale / FGFA
Please correct me if my i am missing something

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 20 Aug 2012 00:01

SaiK ji, let the agreement be signed, we have been arguing about our role for some time with the Russians. The next few weeks will be important for finalising our role. Let's wait and see.

Dhiraj, yes it does. We wouldn't ask for ToT otherwise

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 Aug 2012 01:56

shyamd wrote:SaiK ji, let the agreement be signed, we have been arguing about our role for some time with the Russians. The next few weeks will be important for finalising our role. Let's wait and see.

Dhiraj, yes it does. We wouldn't ask for ToT otherwise

I would assume from whatever reports are available in open source media and given the fact that how Russia had finalized all design aspects well before we got anywhere near the project that PAK-FA for all intents and purposes is a Russian program with little to no significant Indian input (as is FGFA). The only benefit apart from the obvious that we can get from this is that it might save us a few years in terms of AMCA technology prototype development and shave off a few years to enable us to accelerate design and testing, to expect much more of an Indian input while we grapple with LCA at his point of time is a bit of a flight of fantasy.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2012 04:15

Nihat,remember a report over two years ago ,I think in Vayu and the media,by a Russian diplomat,who when asked about the FGFA project and Indian involvement said that it was upto India to decide upon what areas it wanted to co-develop with Russia on the FGFA project.At that time we had not decided upon our areas of R&D.I feel that we did not get our act together early enough,perhaps because of the dearth of experts in the advanced aero-space tech that the FGFA is bringing with it.We can scarcely develop and innduct the LCA after decades...that too with foreign help,so where do we find the human resources and scientific talent to develop an FGFA? Also remember that due to a shortage of staff in the ADA/HAL/DRDO whatever,it was reported that the team in charge of the IJT were given additional responsibility of the FGFA project too!

Secondly,we have also been rather obstinate in wanting a two-seater (perhaps due to the huge success of the SU-30MKI) with its inherent stealth drawbacks,when advances in aerospace tech and advanced avionics has made it easier for one pilot to do the business.A number of two-seat trainers can be later adapted if needed (just as the SU-27 trainer was turned into the SU-30MKI) to complement the single-seat version.This will also make it faster to induct the aircraft into service,which is what the IAF want.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Aug 2012 04:43

Russians are just using us for money [period]. And we knew our weaknesses in terms of where we stand on various tech things. Stealth and super-cruise are the two important features that both Russia and India has never demonstrated the tech. Plasma stealth on the inlets is widely talked about, but nothing yet said on these.

99.999% russian technology is fine, but why call it Indo-Russian venture? Rather, it would fit the bill better, if we can call it like the PAK-FA-MKI aka FGFA (watchamma callit!?). just for name sake.

show me the tech!~ or design that we are playing the $35 billions worth.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 20 Aug 2012 06:28

Guys, a little bit of Googling would work wonders.

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2011/02/s ... -fgfa.html

The statement on the 6 DRDO labs has been cited by many different sources. For instance:
http://security-informatica.blogspot.co ... r-war.html

Also, Ajai Shukla had a nice article about this:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/05/ ... an_16.html

I second the comments on the LCA and the FGFA. How many Indian universities offer a proper course on aeronautical engineering? How many qualified aeronautical engineers does India have? How many of those engineers would be willing to work for the DRDO, HAL, etc.?

Indians should take a realistic look at the country's strengths and weaknesses, and then proceed from there.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 20 Aug 2012 06:51

With the sort of money involved there will be a lot of info involved that will be transferred, hopefully from the conceptual stage with the different concepts being dropped/modified till something close to the final configuration evolved. If this sort of head scratching brainstorming were involved then yes, we are leapfrogging and getting a database on how to design a larger fighter/bomber
This has not been confirmed in the public domain, but if we have taken so long to fianlise the deal hopefully we have got most of what our guys want.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2012 10:14

in my opinion we should take a leaf out of Cheen book and approach the AMCA as a "J-11" type concept - ie take the basic airframe of the FGFA , tinker with it somewhat if required but keep the basic size and shape with will work fine, fit it with our own radar , avionics, control systems ... indigenize as much as possible to benefit local cos even if not strictly needed, work on new families of A2G weapons and also do a deal with Snecma or Saturn for a 120kN engine (need not be as powerful as the 5th gen engine given A2G focus)...a pindigenized AL31FM2 would work fine...and Rus might be willing to share this trailing edge tech more than the "black box" 5th gen tech which they will guard fiercely.

change the intake design if needed to make it deep-stealth. change the exhaust to lose 15% thrust but raptor style nozzle. improve manufacturing tolerances which is very challenging in a mass production pgm....

overall we can cut 5-7 yrs off the AMCA design and FCS testing using the proven airframe and FCS of the PAKFA, perhaps scale it down in size by 20% if the smaller/cheaper fetish gene still rules our veins.

it will be a reaslistic product oriented project rather than a pie in sky JSFski. pro-import IAF elements are simply leading on the DRDO giving hifi specs so they can point fingers later and kill it as too late.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Aug 2012 11:02

Singha wrote:in my opinion we should take a leaf out of Cheen book and approach the AMCA as a "J-11" type concept - ie take the basic airframe of the FGFA , tinker with it somewhat if required but keep the basic size and shape with will work fine, fit it with our own radar , avionics, control systems ... indigenize as much as possible to benefit local cos even if not strictly needed, work on new families of A2G weapons and also do a deal with Snecma or Saturn for a 120kN engine (need not be as powerful as the 5th gen engine given A2G focus)...a pindigenized AL31FM2 would work fine...and Rus might be willing to share this trailing edge tech more than the "black box" 5th gen tech which they will guard fiercely.

change the intake design if needed to make it deep-stealth. change the exhaust to lose 15% thrust but raptor style nozzle. improve manufacturing tolerances which is very challenging in a mass production pgm....

overall we can cut 5-7 yrs off the AMCA design and FCS testing using the proven airframe and FCS of the PAKFA, perhaps scale it down in size by 20% if the smaller/cheaper fetish gene still rules our veins.

it will be a reaslistic product oriented project rather than a pie in sky JSFski. pro-import IAF elements are simply leading on the DRDO giving hifi specs so they can point fingers later and kill it as too late.

perfect approach....except the engine part......as part of the FGFA / Rafale deal we need to get the best of the engine tech..
we are spending so much money so no way we can still let other guard some or the other tech....else they should have gone for PAK FA alone

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2012 11:08

hopefully Snecma will be willing to take the next step after "fixing" the kaveri and collab on the 120kn engine project (its new game for them as well, as they always used smaller engines).....we are paying a kings ransom in scorpene, m2k upg and rafale deals. thales and EADS also make plenty of $$ off us, the new MRTT could go their way also.

if at all we wanted a 100% new airframe for the AMCA as the models suggest, the time to start on it was atleast 7 yrs ago in 2005...but lack of people/resources put paid to that. Cheen didnt sit around with just the J20, the new fighter on a truck and perhaps another raptorski are moving in parallel and they started around 2002-05 timeframe to get J20 flying when it did. they did this when the J10 was still not properly FOCed and is still not update scratch as a late model F-16.

we BADLY missed the boat on that, time to get reaslistic if we want a product for the IAF, rather than a skill building project for various agencies.

Cheen is 15 yrs ahead of us and the gap is growing wider as they POUR in people and resources. they are going seriously on the C919 with imported kit in ph1, partial localization in ph2 and full localization incl engine TOT in ph3. our RTA is a proposal shuttling between various EGOMs and our design houses have not produced a single passenger aircraft that has seen line service domestically even, let alone exported. expecting them to come up with ATR72 is meaningless.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Aug 2012 13:29

Fifth Generation Fighter is a two horse race US with JSF on one side and Russia with PAK-FA on the other.

The other leading aerospace nations like French , Europe/EADS and Sweden did not take the risk to develop a fifth generation fighter and focused on 4 plus gen fighter and then move to UCAV/UAV.

There is a China angle with J-20 but its too early to see how that develops , considering the Chinese have not even managed to sell their J-10 even with 10 years of service , their hope of selling J-20 for export is a distant dream at best the PLAAF will be the customer J-20 can bet its future on.

Indian Fifth Gen Fighter MCA/AMCA has not left the drawing board and IAF is probably sticking its neck out waitng for LCA Mk2 to get delivered first.

With such Monopoly on fifth gen fighter any business man will tell you in the monopoly business it the company and not the customer that calls the shot.

IAF based on its operational needs has called for 5th gen fighter being available by beginning of next decade. This was then F-35 vs PAK-FA competition.

What IAF needs is a customised fighter that optimised for this subcontinent and its operational requirenment , As far as F-35 goes even though its a good fighter and American MIC can be trusted to do a good job with it inspite of cost over runs where it fails is in delivering a customised fighter.

Considering how UK a Tier 1 partner had to beg to get its wish fullfilled and a close strategic allay had to rub its nose at Unkils feet to get EW stuff inside the JSF , getitng a customised fighter with source code to fit in 3rd party system and TOT with JSF was a distant dream , considering IAF would not even get a Tier 1 status but more like Tier 3.

PAK-FA is in early stage of development and though IAF formally joined the program very late i.e after the first flight in 2011 , it can hope for access to Software Code , Lic Manufacturing and some agreed TOT giving it freedom of operation , although most of the systems like engine , radar ,weapons will be outrightly imported as its unlikely Russia would share all critical technologies.

In the end its a question of which deal gives you most and not what TOT will i get since fifth gen is a sellers market and tightly restricted to two players on a global scale.

There are also other aspect like End to End weapon for 5th Gen fighter like new gen LR A2A missile , A2G weapons , ARM,Antiship weapons etc that can only come from these two major aerospace giants ,making their stranglehold more prominent.

Its quite clear that in the next two decades JSF and PAK-FA would dominate the skies for fifth gen stealth fighter for Airforces willing to invest in these fighters.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Aug 2012 14:17

hmmm....but then Israel managed to have its way on F-35 isn't it....so does the UK and F-35 angle hold true....

Second ...PAK FA as u mentioned is in early development stage and it is a seller market.....so Russia does not need the
6 billion $ development money being paid by India...and they will still be able to develop it by 2017.....i am not too
sure about it.....
How good one is in negotiation that is important.....
India does bring some good understanding in the table else RuAF would not have started inducting the fighter based
on Su 30 MKI and Su 35 has lots of features first seen in Su 30 MKI.....
It is both in Russia and India interest to have PAK FA fast....and if there is any technological denial...then it does
not make any sense to be part of the project....let them develop the on there own and we can just buy from
them.,...later (and without the money they will also have there schedule affected.....

)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Aug 2012 15:18

The kind of concession UK and Israel should have got from F-35 being a Tier 1 and Tier 3 partner and being a strategic ally should have come naturally and not pleading and begging with pentagon.

This should probably send some message to other partner in JSF that they wont get much concession.

The point is India pays money on PAK-FA to develop technology that they dont have to buy from Russia or else pay royalty to them thus impacting the cost and usability of technology.

Russia has already spend $10-11 billion on this program so far and most technologies are already developed or being tested and the 2nd stage engine too is being funded by them because primarily PAK-FA is more important to them to replace their aircraft in VVS an operational need and imperative and they have huge numbers that needs to be replace in the next 2 decades covering 400-450 aircraft atleast.

One should also understand that PAK-FA did not develop as an isolated program but stands on shoulders of Soviet 5th generation program like Sukhoi Berkut and Mig MFI on which substantial amount had been spent and the engine of todays PAK-FA owes a lot to Mig AL-41 engine and TSAGI has been involved in all these designs which is what the best of earlier generation program goes in PAK-FA.

Deputy PM Ivanov is also on record stating that they will continue developing PAK-FA irrespective how the Indo-Russian FGFA takes shape , pronouncing the importance of this program for their industry and armed forces.

Ofcourse India is joining the progam for its benefit as it can gain most over the rival JSF program and IAF has spelled out the need to have a 5th gen fighter.

Other than that the export market for PAK-FA the chief of Sukhoi mentioned an export potential for 600 aircraft ( i suppose that includes 214 Indian ones ) and all Flanker customer today are potential tomorrows PAK-FA buyers.

Its a win win deal for both as IAF gets the aircraft it needs without strings attached plus lic production of the same at an attractive cost and Sukhoi gets its first export customer without having to wait for aircraft entering VVS after comprehensive flight customer

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Aug 2012 17:23

Money alone does not fetch us any technology.. Even the russkies will not share everything for money. It requires money be invested for hard work done entirely by our lab boys.. and there is a big reluctant to trust DRDO in this.. either increase or reorganize them to gain trust or ensure enough money is driven to the right long-term drivers.

LCA Mk2++ path to AMCA is ideal.. however, if pak-fa-mki is considered, then just avionics or mission computer alone does not make sense... we have done this with su30-mki.. and we need advancements in terms of tech.

Two core issues:
Engine
Stealth

Even the radar can be done homegrown, having a good tie up with Israel.. The current LCA one can be phased out, as we proceed.. there is a working model established with Israel to support us in LRUs and components.

Snecma has not proven anything to M-88 core for 120kN.. they are lagging in technology too. It is going to be herculean task for them to beat GE 414.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 20 Aug 2012 21:16

For the $35 billion India is going to invest, is there any assurance that Russia will not export either the complete aircraft or key technologies to China? Or will we see key technologies from the FGFA in the J-20? Is China part of that 600 export order market?