Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Jun 2011 15:13

Pankaj Mishra strikes again:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-0 ... ishra.html

He wants the US to support Pakistan more.

There is of course an unresolvable contradiction in a foreign policy that builds up India’s military and economic capacity while pushing Pakistan to launch resource-draining campaigns against extremists. Not surprisingly, the sight of the U.S. cozying up to Pakistan’s traditional enemy has made the Islamabad establishment not only more paranoid, but also more duplicitous in its dealings with American military and intelligence.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 24 Jun 2011 15:44

Gentle Rakshaks,

It is not without reason, things are beginning to move once again in the India - Pakistan dialogue space. Some of you would remember that I had posted months ago, that the impending withdrawal plans in Afghanistan by the US has incorporated some sort of face saving elements to ensure the survival of the artificial "nation" called Pakistan.

It is also very evident that the face saving measures to prop up include some sort of gain for this vile terrorist entity in relation to India. The Twin Myth propoganda was launched by the US in India and it is all falling into place.

The recent slew of measures from the GOI to boost CBM with respect to Pakistan is unwarranted as well as dangerous. The statements by UN Secretary General to help resolve Kashmir, the statement by Gilani that Kashmir must be resolved for a just peace, the announcement by Obama of phased withdrawal beginning July have to be seen as backdrop to these talks.

The present leadership, for reasons best known to themselves, have also moved away from 26/11 justice. They now talk about "closure" rather than bringing the perpetrators to justice. Why are they doing this? What do they hope to gain? - it is still unclear. No electoral advantage can come by seeking peace with Pakistan. No economic advantage is going to come through by having peace with Pakistan in these terms. No geo-politcal advantage can be realised by this. Yet the GOI seems to march on regardless on this path.

It does not take much to see how the plot has been unravelling. The sudden spurting of "Aman ki Asha", the cricket diplomacy, the appointing of interlocutors for Kashmir, the Sharm Al Shaikh pronouncement, all these are pointers to a deliberate preparation for an eventual selling of a lemon - peace with Pakistan and "resolution" of core issue of Kashmir.

It is pertinent, therefore, to note how these initiatives are being taken when the limelight is on the scams, and Lokpal bills. Surprising isn't it? - there is no moral outrage by the so called "civil society". No discussion at all on the need for talks with Pakistan now.

The Twin Myths continue to be propogated unchallenged. Not a single voice has questioned these myths publicly. Only now has the BJP, through Advani, has issued a public warning not to enter into talks with Pakistan. It is obvious that talks with Pakistan at this stage will not serve any Indian national interest at all.

To top it all, the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson chips in with "India Pakistan peace" statement and reiterates India as a "South Asian" power and calls Pakistan a major power on par with India in this region. It is a return to the Bill Clinton formula of China and US being global powers and little India and Pakistan must be coorced into doing their bidding and be good children.

In Pakistan, no one seems to be in control beyond a point. Each power center is a limiting factor on the other. The state institutions are under attack and it is unlikely that the state can re-assert itself. The descent into chaos is accelerating. In a way, it is the best thing to happen to the people there. This artificial entity should disintegrate if they ever want to come out of the deep morass that they are in. Outside powers are not going to let that happen. They dont care for the people of Pakistan. For them they are cannon fodder like Indians.

All this does not augur well for India. It is curious to note that the policy with regard to Pakistan is now fully back with PMO. It is apparent that the PM and the PMO by extension are the ones striving for some kind of breakthrough with Pakistan.

Why should the PM do this? The often quoted argument is that for India to progress and concentrate on economic growth, it needs peace in the region. But this does not stand the test of reason. Today, Indian growth rate momentum is more or less independent of Pakistan's ability to cause trouble. That has already been factored in. The economic argument does not stand the test.

The second argument is that Pakistan is a neighbour and it is in trouble. That is not new either. Nothing can stop its disintegration. It will happen eventually. No matter how hard the benefactors try propping it up. From an Indian perspective, even if we do not want to actively encourage its destruction, there is no need for us to engage in any kind of talks at this stage. No one in Pakistan can deliver anything. So why talk now?

It is important that these Twin Myths regarding Pakistan must be exposed. These talks must not happen. India should not be giving in to demands from other powers and accept a "peace in our times" deal.

One hopes, that this important issue of national security gets the attention it deserves from the polity and civil society and the behind the scene dealings of the powerful that sells down India, India's interests, territory and Indian lives for the achievement of geo-political objectives of distant foreign powers.

Will the Indian leadership rise up? Only time will tell.

A ramble indeed, but a necessary one in my opinion, for what it is worth.

ranjbe · Post by **ranjbe** » 24 Jun 2011 17:31

ex-Pakistani Ambassador's Rona Dhona regarding Obama's new policy.

Obama's June 22 speech from the White House - in which he announced the commencement of his promised drawdown of US troops from Afghanistan in July this year and phased over the next three years - contains a list of veiled demands and warnings for Pakistan, particularly its military.

However, the relentless demands from Obama for the Pakistan army to do still more - with himself holding a gun to its head, is a catch-22 dilemma for the generals. The price Obama could exact from them and the country is enormous.

Islamabad is also feeling increasingly leery of the traction that the so-called Blackwill formula - to divide Afghanistan along ethnic lines into a Pashtun south and a non-Pashtun north - is apparently receiving in top echelons of the Obama administration.

There's near-consensus in Pakistan's intellectual community, and policymakers, that the author of this prescription, Robert Blackwill, has absorbed a lot of Indian input into his brain wave. Blackwill was George W Bush's ambassador to India from 2001 to 2003.

Pakistan's intellectual community also fears Obama's drawdown of forces, spread over three years, is calibrated to allow the Blackwill plan ample opportunity to take root in Afghanistan.

A divided Afghanistan would not only denude Pakistan of its strategic depth, vis-a-vis India, but may also become a cause for the Pashtuns on both sides of the Durand Line, the poorly marked border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, to unite. Such unity could only mean further dismemberment of Pakistan and open up a Pandora's box. Pakistan simply can't countenance such an outcome and will pull no punches to thwart it.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MF25Df02.html

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Jun 2011 18:16

Good news Ranjbe. Thanks.

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 24 Jun 2011 18:26

shiv wrote:
negi wrote: Anyways Gandus on our side have already obliged.
And chief among them, Rt Hon. SM Krishna, minister for geriatrics and foot in mouth disease has thanked the Pakistani navy and PNS Babur by implication. Sometimes I wonder which country in Soth Asia I hail from.

This joker, at the height of the 26/11 episode, called the terrorists "Miscreants" and "Mischief makers". I consider him in the same category as another joker and now infamous Saddam's Information Minister

-M

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 24 Jun 2011 19:01

Raja Ram wrote:No economic advantage is going to come through by having peace with Pakistan in these terms.

Very nice post.
Obviously not to either of us but for the people who are pushing this circus.Few people become very rich when lot of people are sold out. August is a crucial month for US. Lot of changes are gonna come by then. I would wait till August and see how it pans out. In the meanwhile Congress government needs to be put under lot of pressure for lokpal and talks with Pakistan.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 24 Jun 2011 19:54

Did anyone catch HuM denying links with OBL? Almost certainly this is a ISI driven announcement? Which jihadi tanzeem in pak will openly say they have no links with OBL..when claiming a link is probably the most sought after..

added later: here it is

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... den.phone/

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A member of a Pakistani-based militant group is denying a New York Times report that a cellphone found during the raid of Osama bin Laden's compound contains information that links his group to bin Laden.

The member of Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen said he was not aware of support his group gave bin Laden during the years the al Qaeda boss hid at a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Jun 2011 20:18

Gus wrote:Did anyone catch HuM denying links with OBL? Almost certainly this is a ISI driven announcement? Which jihadi tanzeem in pak will openly say they have no links with OBL..when claiming a link is probably the most sought after..

added later: here it is

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... den.phone/
Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A member of a Pakistani-based militant group is denying a New York Times report that a cellphone found during the raid of Osama bin Laden's compound contains information that links his group to bin Laden.

The member of Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen said he was not aware of support his group gave bin Laden during the years the al Qaeda boss hid at a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan

Just proves that even HuM have non-state actors. In keeping with the times and their masters, the ISI.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2011 20:35

A_Guptaji, For those not into computer programming can you use clear English please?
All those <#!> are not helpful.

SSridhar, I think this thread is visited by a lot of folks for its a repository of all things Paki!

Wouldnt be surprised that BRF speak becomes mainstream with a lagof one -two years.

BTW I found an interesting factoid. It was the ban on Saudi hunting of Great Indian Bustard(Godwan/Taloor) in India by ABV in 1979 due to a delegation of environmentalists that turned the Shieks to go to TSP for Houbara hunting and the rest is history. Its a shame that Mrs. G's govt first granted the hunting permits to KSA in 1975 during Emergency. Must be a CBM for votebank politics.

Article by Mahesh Rangarajan

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2011 20:38

Gus wrote:Did anyone catch HuM denying links with OBL? Almost certainly this is a ISI driven announcement? Which jihadi tanzeem in pak will openly say they have no links with OBL..when claiming a link is probably the most sought after..

added later: here it is

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... den.phone/
Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A member of a Pakistani-based militant group is denying a New York Times report that a cellphone found during the raid of Osama bin Laden's compound contains information that links his group to bin Laden.

The member of Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen said he was not aware of support his group gave bin Laden during the years the al Qaeda boss hid at a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan

Wah!
OBL now gets denied by his own adherents (HuM, shades of Peter) after getting betrayed by TSPA(shades of Judas) and killed by new Romans (shades of Pontius Pilate) !!!!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 24 Jun 2011 20:41

No self respecting Jihadi will deny "connections" to OBL. Only Pakis can pull this stunt.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 24 Jun 2011 21:11

From The News
CID police arrest 3 terror suspects in Karachi

Updated 2 hours ago

KARACHI: CID Police have claimed to arrest three key terrorists in raids carried out in two different areas of the metropolis, Geo News reported Friday.

SP CID, Chaudhry Aslam, at a press conference here said, the CID police conducted a raid in Mauripur area and arrested two terrorists associated with the outlawed Jund Allah outfit. He said one of the arrested is an incharge of terrorist activities in Karachi and that the accused were involved in 2009 Ashura blast in Karachi.

Two suicide jackets, 25 kilograms of explosives, one LMG, 30 ft wire, and 10 detonators were recovered from the possession of the suspects, Chaudhry Aslam said.

In another raid near Walika Hospital, the CID police arrested one more terrorist having links with the banned Tehreek-e-Taliban Fazlullah group. According to SP CID, the man was involved in attacks on government installations in Swat.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Jun 2011 21:15

Raja Ram,

Excellent points, but like me and many BRits, you point out the way things ought to be and not the way things are. For example:

The present leadership, for reasons best known to themselves, have also moved away from 26/11 justice. They now talk about "closure" rather than bringing the perpetrators to justice. Why are they doing this? What do they hope to gain? - it is still unclear. No electoral advantage can come by seeking peace with Pakistan. No economic advantage is going to come through by having peace with Pakistan in these terms. No geo-politcal advantage can be realised by this. Yet the GOI seems to march on regardless on this path.

I respectfully disagree. There will be huge electoral gains should MMS tout his so called "peace dividend" with TSP. A slow-motion surrender of Kashmir valley, which is what he has embarked upon, with diluting of TSP terror including Mumbai by bringing in "Hindu terror", all aided and abeted by a mouthpiece media and western racists; all these sell outs simply don't register in the aam junta, even the middle class. This whole piss process under US tutelage is about India surrendering in slow motion, while TSP holds back LeT. And its not because of fear of Indian punishment that TSP has held back LeT, its because of MMS's approach. And he has got most of India's apathy on this if not outright support. Thats the sad reality we are dealing with. You think Advani's and BJP's nationalistic noises stand a chance of making inroads? Don't make me laugh.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 24 Jun 2011 21:20

http://www.samachar.com/Pak-creates-dis ... ended_news
Pak creates dissonance as Indo-US ties improve: Clinton
Every time the United States tries to improve its ties with India [ Images ], it creates a lot of "cognitive dissonance" in Pakistan where the Indo-American relations have become a zero-sum game, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton [ Images ] has said.
"Whenever, "we make a move toward improving our relationship with India, which we started in the '90s, and it's been bipartisan, with President Bill Clinton [ Images ] and President Barack Obama [ Images ] and President George W Bush [ Images ], the Pakistanis find that creates a lot of cognitive dissonance," she said......."
What Pakistan cause dissonance? No way!
Gautam
PS Fridin is here again.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2011 21:29

Gautam wrote:
What Pakistan cause dissonance?

This the core issue of TSP. The Two Nation theory and their dogma of being chosen by Allah to be supreme on the subcontinent, the British false promises (Blunt project), the US support during and after the Cold War all these make them feel betrayed. They wonder if they have not been following the book rigorously for being let down from the Promised overlordship over SDRE.
So they do see it as a zero sum game. They dont believe in win-win. Its win-lose. Its not cognitive dissonance but irrational belief in the book.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jun 2011 21:40

ramana wrote:
Gautam wrote:
What Pakistan cause dissonance?

This the core issue of TSP. The Two Nation theory and their dogma of being chosen by Allah to be supreme on the subcontinent, the British false promises (Blunt project), the US support during and after the Cold War all these make them feel betrayed. They wonder if they have not been following the book rigorously for being let down from the Promised overlordship over SDRE.
So they do see it as a zero sum game. They dont believe in win-win. Its win-lose. Its not cognitive dissonance but irrational belief in the book.

The Pakistan is a social engineered group of Indians who were given the promise by the British of a large Muslim empire in the modern world. There existence is based on the total support of the English people and other power who cultivated them during the cold war. They have no plan B if they do not get any support from the Anglo world or the major power. They are in the sub continent but they look at the middle east for direction.
Once US supports India even if it is for a short while Pakistan feel the need for plan B.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 24 Jun 2011 21:47

In case some of you were thinking why the scores are low this friday, the article tells you what happened just before juma prayers. From "The News" (posting in full).
Terror bid foiled in Karachi

Updated 10 hours ago

KARACHI: Karachi police foiled a terror bid on Friday by defusing a bomb which weighed 42 kilogramme's (kg) and had two detonators, Geo News reported.

The bomb was recovered from a residential colony near Jinnah Postgraduate Medical Centre in an area which is usually used for Friday prayers.

According to police, the total weight of the bomb was 42 kg, which included 15-20 kg of explosives and the rest of the weight was from nut bolts and bearings.

JPMC is the biggest government-run hospital in the city. The bomb disposal squad defused the device having ball-bearings, iron plates and detonators connected to it.

Acting CCPO, Karachi Iqbal Mehmood told the media that the bomb was remote-controlled. As strict security measures have been ordered for Friday prayers, that is why they were able to detect the presence of explosives, CCPO said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jun 2011 21:57

Acharya wrote: The Pakistan is a social engineered group of Indians who were given the promise by the British of a large Muslim empire in the modern world. There existence is based on the total support of the English people and other power who cultivated them during the cold war. They have no plan B if they do not get any support from the Anglo world or the major power. They are in the sub continent but they look at the middle east for direction.
Once US supports India even if it is for a short while Pakistan feel the need for plan B.

Pakistan's failure is the failure of Pakistan's sponsors to give them what was promised. It is India's fault for failing to fall. Even the cheenis joined this Sun-Tzutiyapanti - under Mao at least.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Jun 2011 22:01

shiv wrote:Pakistan's failure is the failure of Pakistan's sponsors to give them what was promised. It is India's fault for failing to fall. Even the cheenis joined this Sun-Tzutiyapanti - under Mao at least.

That is an interesting thought. The British and Americans were sure India would fall apart in a hundred squabbling nations. At which point their creation would have been the most stable spot on the subcontinent.

Our mere existence is a poison to TSP.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 24 Jun 2011 22:14

I have been reading Sarila's book and I am amazed at the length Brits went to cultivate Muslim league and Jinnah in particular. Linlithgow was the biggest culprit as he played the brinksmanship with CONgress by cultivating Jinnah.

CONgress off course handed over the opportunity to Jinnah by quitting the provincial govt in 1939 and left a vacuum. Churchil's hatred for Hindus is mind boggling.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Jun 2011 22:20

ramana wrote:A_Guptaji, For those not into computer programming can you use clear English please?
All those <#!> are not helpful.

If you're referring to <--> those were lines connecting the dots.
Otherwise, not sure what you're referring to.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jun 2011 22:20

ramana wrote: BTW I found an interesting factoid. It was the ban on Saudi hunting of Great Indian Bustard(Godwan/Taloor) in India by ABV in 1979 due to a delegation of environmentalists that turned the Shieks to go to TSP for Houbara hunting and the rest is history. Its a shame that Mrs. G's govt first granted the hunting permits to KSA in 1975 during Emergency. Must be a CBM for votebank politics.

Tube light moment.

Doesnt that closely mirror the invite to Al Suadais and pumping flesh with him right now?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 24 Jun 2011 22:23

ramana wrote:This the core issue of TSP. The Two Nation theory and their dogma of being chosen by Allah to be supreme on the subcontinent, the British false promises (Blunt project), the US support during and after the Cold War all these make them feel betrayed. They wonder if they have not been following the book rigorously for being let down from the Promised overlordship over SDRE.
So they do see it as a zero sum game. They dont believe in win-win. Its win-lose. Its not cognitive dissonance but irrational belief in the book.

RamanaGaru, what is a win win situation? The best win win analogy I can think of would be US and its western lackeys. UK, France, German etc are proud independent countries in their own right, they have stable govts, good economies, and a happy contented people (for the most part). And all of them have no issue with US as their big brother and will toes US line against us "lesser people" as the white man's burden. I cannot imagine any situation where TSP will accept current SDRE domination of the subcontinent which is the natrural equilibrium even if it means improving their lot like US's western lackeys. They want total SDRE subjugation. I don't see any win win. From an Indian nationalist perspective, what is a win win situation with TSP?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Jun 2011 23:11

^^^ Even a cold peace like India has with China will be a win-win situation. China is supposedly India's largest trade partner. Under the theory that trade is mutually beneficial, it must be adding the prosperity on both sides, and must be win-win to that extent.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jun 2011 23:18

Several Insurgents Killed During Bombing in Pakistan
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/06/24 ... -pakistan/
(Wonder how many Pashtun civilians got killed)

PARACHINAR, Pakistan -- A government administrator says Pakistani fighter jets have bombed suspected militant hideouts in a northwestern region near the Afghan border, killing at least 10 alleged insurgents.Javed Khan says the airstrikes Friday hit two areas of the Kurram tribal region based on intelligence reports about the presence of militants.Pakistan's army has waged multiple offensives in various parts of Pakistan's lawless tribal belt in order to force out Al Qaeda and Pakistani Taliban fighters.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jun 2011 23:23

'India, China and Pakistan should shake off cold war mentality'
(usual slime talk or Changing Color of Chinese Cameleon)

Seeking a 'new perspective' for establishing close China-India-Pakistan ties, the official think tanks in Beijing on Friday said that recent efforts by Beijing to have strong relationships with its two neighbours should not be viewed with 'suspicion'.Outlining China's foreign policy perspectives in the next five years under the 12th five year plan, the Members of Foreign Policy Advisory Group said that China is seeking to have close relations with both India and Pakistan."Indeed we see improvement of relationship between India and Pakistan and we know you (India-Pakistan) are taking measures to solve differences," Ma Zhengang, who headed the Ambassador's group in FPAG, told a media briefing at the Chinese Foreign Ministry.
He along with Qu Xing, President of state-run China Institute of International Studies, addressed the media here to outline China's policy perspectives in next five years.China really hopes to see Indo-Pak relations improve and we are making our own efforts to promote mutual understanding between your two countries. If the bilateral (ties) between India and Pakistan can make breakthroughs it is a great pleasure for Chinese people too," Ma said answering a question on how China sees its role in South Asia, especially in the context of its close ties with Pakistan."So I think for all our three countries, China, India and Pakistan we should have new perspective concerning international situation and we should shake our cold war mentality," he said.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110624.htm

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Jun 2011 00:41

Guys, who wants to laugh, and who wants to cry for India at what went on during the just concluded round of Piss talks

Rao expressed concerns about terrorism and the pending issues related to the 26/11 and Pakistan asked what's happening to the case of the blast on Samjuata express. But, the official sources said that one should not fall into trap of pitting the terrorism of 26/11 against the terror blasts on Samjuata express.

"We are not condoning the incident of Samjauta where human lives were lost. India is not afraid of standing up and condemning it. The 26/11 attack is of gross proportion."

The Indian side has told Pakistan that once the investigation in Samjauta blasts is completed, they will brief Pakistan about it, while Pakistan has told India that there are legal glitches and issues about the cases related to 26/11 in the Pakistani courts.

The government source said, "Some cynics ask what difference such talks make? I think it does make the difference." The source went as far as to claim that, "The meeting was one of confidence that said that we( India-Pakistan) can face the world together!"

Raja Ram, this question is for you. You, like many talk about public opinion in India. Tell me to what percentage of Indian public the above equivalence between 26/11 and Samjotha will be not only offesnive, but will take MMS and his gang to task for? And we speak about Indian public not accepting the slow motion surrender of the valley through MMS-Mush formula. And what is this crap about India and TSP facing the world together?

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 25 Jun 2011 00:57

There is a time when soothing peaceful noises become odious and loathsome. When will India learn that lesson? We can't even put out the right diplomatic noise about these things, let alone take action.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2011 00:58

CRamS wrote:
ramana wrote:This the core issue of TSP. The Two Nation theory and their dogma of being chosen by Allah to be supreme on the subcontinent, the British false promises (Blunt project), the US support during and after the Cold War all these make them feel betrayed. They wonder if they have not been following the book rigorously for being let down from the Promised overlordship over SDRE.
So they do see it as a zero sum game. They dont believe in win-win. Its win-lose. Its not cognitive dissonance but irrational belief in the book.
RamanaGaru, what is a win win situation? The best win win analogy I can think of would be US and its western lackeys. UK, France, German etc are proud independent countries in their own right, they have stable govts, good economies, and a happy contented people (for the most part). And all of them have no issue with US as their big brother and will toes US line against us "lesser people" as the white man's burden. I cannot imagine any situation where TSP will accept current SDRE domination of the subcontinent which is the natrural equilibrium even if it means improving their lot like US's western lackeys. They want total SDRE subjugation. I don't see any win win. From an Indian nationalist perspective, what is a win win situation with TSP?

Short answer Win-Win is when the imperial bug is killed/removed from Anglo-Saxons.
I typed a long answer which the forum swallowed!

Let me see if I can get them in point form.

- Need to study history of Europe for it had imprint on world History.
- First ones in Europe to get the imperial bug were ancient Greeks. Not really city states but the neo-Greeks under Philip. With death of Alexander they went off the stage.
- Next ones to get it were the pre-Christians Romans who rampaged across Europe. Conversion killed/removed the bug from them. It went nested in the Papal authority.
- Spain got the bug after the Almovards were defeated in Alhambra and the Spanish war of Succession detoxified them two centuries later. But by then they spread all over Latin America, Phillipines.
-The English got it and called it colonialism. WWI and II removed it from them however they passed it on to US. Again two three centuries.
- End of Cold War, WANA mess, financial bubble collapse hopefully reduce the fever. ~ Two decades.
Once the US realizes it does not need ot play balance of power games and that it is not a Roman derivative/successor things will get better.

The English had to play balance of power for they faced invasion threats over 1500 years from Europe, starting with Julius Caeser's invasion in 56BC. This threat was there till WII. They turned to colonialsim to get captive markets for their trading monopolies which were inefficeint.

The US does not face a similar invasion by force like England and its economy is competetive if you remove the distortions due to imperial hubris. So BOP games are to in its ultimate self interest.

Looking at neboulus/stormy present and uncertain future lets chart our course knowing we will keep our tryst with destiny.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2011 01:02

Nightwatch 23 June 2011

India-Pakistan: Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao and Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir began their latest round of talks in Islamabad on 23 June. The first meeting dealt with peace and security issues and ways to build confidence on Kashmir. Two more rounds will take place on 24 June and will focus on friendly exchanges, plus Jammu and Kashmir.

Comment: The Indians have shown remarkable statesmanship in continuing the dialogue despite their expectation that another terrorist attack from Pakistani-based terrorists is almost inevtiable and their concern that bin Laden was found and killed in Abbottabad, Pakistan near teh military academy. Prime Minister Singh's government is doing what it can to help stabilize an increasingly unstable government in Islamabad.

IOW if it weren't for the talks the US would find a pretty mess over in Af-Pak.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jun 2011 01:09

ramana wrote:
Short answer Win-Win is when the imperial bug is killed/removed from Anglo-Saxons.
I typed a long answer which the forum swallowed!

Let me see if I can get them in point form.

- Need to study history of Europe for it had imprint on world History.
- First ones in Europe to get the imperial bug were ancient Greeks. Not really city states but the neo-Greeks under Philip. With death of Alexander they went off the stage.
- Next ones to get it were the pre-Christians Romans who rampaged across Europe. Conversion killed/removed the bug from them. It went nested in the Papal authority.
- Spain got the bug after the Almovards were defeated in Alhambra and the Spanish war of Succession detoxified them two centuries later. But by then they spread all over Latin America, Phillipines.
-The English got it and called it colonialism. WWI and II removed it from them however they passed it on to US. Again two three centuries.
- End of Cold War, WANA mess, financial bubble collapse hopefully reduce the fever. ~ Two decades.
Once the US realizes it does not need ot play balance of power games and that it is not a Roman derivative/successor things will get better.

The English had to play balance of power for they faced invasion threats over 1500 years from Europe, starting with Julius Caeser's invasion in 56BC. This threat was there till WII. They turned to colonialsim to get captive markets for their trading monopolies which were inefficeint.

The US does not face a similar invasion by force like England and its economy is competetive if you remove the distortions due to imperial hubris. So BOP games are to in its ultimate self interest.

Looking at neboulus/stormy present and uncertain future lets chart our course knowing we will keep our tryst with destiny.

This is more idealistic but in reality Papal authority can revive the religious imperial bug again

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2011 01:27

Who know how long they will be? Luther took the fire out of them at same time as the Spanish got their medicine.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 25 Jun 2011 03:03

Raja Ram:

I think part of the reason PMO is doing this is that the INC is so corrupt, it can be very easily be compromised by foreign powers.

The US has the pull and the power to dig up dirt on the oligarchs who rule India. Most of their ill-gotten wealth has also been stashed up overseas. The 2Gs trip abroad during the heat of the anti-corruption movement were perhaps a hint of panic. It could also have been to set the house in order. So when the rulers can be compromise by foreign powers, they can also use their influence to get India to do things which are in their interest.

The PM personally may not accept what he is told (if he is) of what modern day Pakistan is. People who are forced to give up something dear, always have very strong memories, mostly positive of what they left behind. At an emotional level they can never let go of that charming vision. More often than not the emotions overwhelm rational thinking, especially when you have suave RAPEs and RAPEttes peddling the snake-oil.

Further the PM is guided by many other who are the Gandhi family lackeys so it can not be too hard to manage the situation.

While the neighborhood is in turmoil, it is the time for India to asset its interest on undivided J&K. Instead the silence has allowed the PLA to occupy strategic areas. When will they learn?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jun 2011 03:21

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_po ... _1558624[b]
Post 2014 regime in Afghanistan must be one of stability: Arun Jaitely[/b]
Published: Friday, Jun 24, 2011, 15:56 IST
Place: Washington, DC | Agency: PTI

The withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan should not allow space for the revival of the Taliban there, senior BJP leader Arun Jaitely has said, as he sought a stable regime in the war-ravaged country post 2014.

"Post 2014 regime in Afghanistan must be one of stability, one which is development oriented, one which is peaceful, one which does not allow Afghanistan to be in any way adversely affected and does not allow the revival of the Taliban," Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha, Jaitley said in his speech at the launch of a India-centric think-tank in Washington, Foundation for India and Indian Diaspora Studies.

Jaitley's remarks comes a day after US President Barack Obama announced a 30,000 troop withdrawal from Afghanistan by the summer of next year and transition from combat to supportive role by 2014.

He said that the United States should ensure that post 2014, the regime in Afghanistan must be one of stability.

"The whole idea has to be that what happens in Afghanistan, post 2014 you do not squander away the advantages that happened in the last decade or more and therefore you have a stable system in place," he said.

On Pakistan, Jaitley said the ideological debate is now converging to an end.

"We are almost close to the finishing line. What did India say all these years? We said Pakistan is the epicentre of global terrorism. Pakistan uses terror as an instrument of state policy. When these words were first used by us, some considered it to be an overstatement," he noted.

"And today all these developments, every terrorist attack in the world has a Pakistani element. You now find a situation, where we were mild when we said it is a state in denial. It is not a state in denial, it is a state in duplicity. Therefore you can turn around and say, we did not know Osama bin Laden was hiding in Abbottabad," he said.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Jun 2011 03:44

arun wrote:Bruce Riedel in the Daily Beast with a prescription as to what US policy with regard to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ought to be:

Three Ways to Help Pakistan

President Obama’s Afghan withdrawal plans include working with Pakistan to “root out the cancer of violent extremism.” Bruce Riedel’s three key steps to do it right.

June 23, 2011 4:06 PM EDT

On Wednesday evening, President Obama rightly said we “need to work with the Pakistani government to root out the cancer of violent extremism, and we will insist that it keeps its commitments.” Here is how to do it in three steps...

Read it all in the Daily Beast:

Three Ways to Help Pakistan

What Reidel is saying is not very different from what someone called Shahnawaz Pirzada says in the article which can be downloaded from the link below:

http://www.2shared.com/document/G_Qr6nt ... nge_P.html

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Jun 2011 04:12

This is significant from the Rediff interview.

Riedel clarified that he was not telling the Indian government "what to do, what not to do. But it's going to be an order of magnitude different. I have good reason to believe that ever since Christmas 2001, and certainly since November 2008, an enormous amount of effort has been spent in the Indian ministry of defence trying to figure out, what are we going to do the next time?

"I'm not asking them to share their contingency planning with us. But the prudent thing for strategic thinkers on both sides, in an outside of government, is to start thinking about that -- the ramifications -- and trying to think through some of that scenario," he added.

I am surprised that India has not intimated any contingency plan details, I am surprised at this public plea for information/coordination. It suggests GOI does not trust the US with military plans lest they be divulged to Pakistan. This relationship is not as far evolved as believed. (Or Riedel could be simply reassuring Peskistanis that there is no military collusion, yet, between India/US).

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 25 Jun 2011 04:26

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Even a cold peace like India has with China will be a win-win situation. China is supposedly India's largest trade partner. Under the theory that trade is mutually beneficial, it must be adding the prosperity on both sides, and must be win-win to that extent.

Check the merchandise balance of trade and judge whether this is the proverbial "assassin's mace"

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 25 Jun 2011 04:39

What Pakistan cause dissonance? No way!
Gautam

ramana wrote: This the core issue of TSP. The Two Nation theory and their dogma of being chosen by Allah to be supreme on the subcontinent, the British false promises (Blunt project), the US support during and after the Cold War all these make them feel betrayed.

Boss,
That was a sarcastic question only. It did not really needed to be answered.
Gautam

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 25 Jun 2011 06:02

Article by a Pakistani Hindu: "How could you serve breakfast to a Hindu?"

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Jun 2011 06:11

^
Some of my colleagues suggest that this attitude is an indirect reaction to the discrimination faced by Muslims in India, which I find to be a rather unconvincing argument. One cannot compare Pakistan’s religious minorities with those in India.

Perhaps India should treat its minorities as does Pakistan-surely that will be satisfactory to all parties.