Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Sep 2011 14:20

harbans wrote: The suggestion is not a panacea. It's starkly similar to how a large part of Arabia got Islamized. This has been attempted before by none other than Mohammed himself in the 7th Century. Muhammed came with now banned verses accepting prayers of intercession on behalf of 2 other Goddesses. A lot of people who escaped from Arabia to Abyssinia were appeased by Mohammed's gesture and said Islam is then exactly like us as it accepts prayers on intercession. They accepted 'Islam'. The doctrine of excluvism and fear associated with apostasy remained in place. After a few months all Mohamed did was pass a decree that the verses were false and given by the Devil himself. Those who tried to get back faced Islam's wrath on the apostates. In effect in converted a large number of people who wouldn't otherwise have joined Islam to begin with.
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Actually the example you provide establishes that in principle, it is in fact possible to reverse this.

At the time of Mohammed, Mohammed sneaked in Islam alongside two existing Goddesses, and then at an opportune time, decreed the other two Goddesses illegal. He had the military muscle to back it up, so he could do that.

This is similar to the tricks that some Christian missionaries use in India... bringing Jesus in alongside Tribal deities, and then when enough demographic power is established, attack the other deities as false gods, idols etc.

What I've proposed is the exact opposite. Surround Mohammed with a multitude of other Gods, and worship ALL of them. The political and social pressures mounting today... after the whole Al Qaeda/ War on Terror business... are in fact countervailing those that existed at Mohammed's time. Read Carl's thread on Iran's Dual Identity crisis to see what I mean. An assertive act of claiming Islam with a different interpretation based on individual national cultures, could be the beginning of pan-Islamic, transnational Ummah-as-we-know-it unraveling completely.

In fact, it has even been done before, though to a much less radical extent, with the origin of Shia Islam. Other "deities" were elevated to a semi-divine status, such as Ali the first Imam. Shia Islam survives as an independent entity to this day.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Sep 2011 14:23

Well Rudradev ji

I am not convinced.
You surely feel "As Muslims we are the biggest Ummah in India." And that is how I understood your formulation.

What is the need to be Islamic even "*by OUR definition of Islam*"

It would be "pretension" by their definition and still they would be fighting. So rather than ending the fight by coopting it your idea would only perpetuate it.

"We will fight them back, in the name of our Islam! " , if we have to fight in the name of "Our Islam" then what purpose is served?

Exactly what is your end point that you were trying to explain in "whimsical way" as you put it.? To end fight or to become Islamic.
if we have to become islamic, why not do it like others if our faith is not what we actually believe in?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Sep 2011 14:26

What I've proposed is the exact opposite. Surround Mohammed with a multitude of other Gods, and worship ALL of them.

Rudradev Ji, that's exactly the atmosphere under which Mohammed thrived. Mohammed and his men were a small minority surrounded by a multitude of Gods being worshiped from a central Temple..Kaaba. Mohammed faced that, succeeded and converted those who outnumbered and surrounded him. The Kaaba is now central to Purist Islam.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Sep 2011 14:27

Rudradev wrote: What I've proposed is the exact opposite. Surround Mohammed with a multitude of other Gods, and worship ALL of them. The political and social pressures mounting today... after the whole Al Qaeda/ War on Terror business... are in fact countervailing those that existed at Mohammed's time. Read Carl's thread on Iran's Dual Identity crisis to see what I mean. An assertive act of claiming Islam with a different interpretation based on individual national cultures, could be the beginning of pan-Islamic, transnational Ummah-as-we-know-it unraveling completely.

In fact, it has even been done before, though to a much less radical extent, with the origin of Shia Islam. Other "deities" were elevated to a semi-divine status, such as Ali the first Imam. Shia Islam survives as an independent entity to this day.

Rudradevji , if your ideas is strategic or tactical then just formulate it as Mohammad is Vishnu and put his image in temples and start worshipping it. Say it is Hindu. So purpose would be served, if there is any.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Sep 2011 14:29

harbans wrote:
we, ALL of us Indians ARE MUSLIMS. Then we are WITHIN (by our own definition) Islam.
Rudradev ji, Islam has never allowed any majority to define itself. Islams way will be dictated by those pious who are powerful. The pious know they are nearer the literal versions as mandated by the founder of Islam. There is a whole jamboree of texts to justify that piety even when expressed through violent means. The incentives against the 'hypocrites' are just too big to ignore both for the pious with violent means and the 'Hypocrite'. Thus the truth on Islam will be won by those who are more pious. Those worshipping the doctored version..will face violence or will slowly over generations have to submit to the more literal and pious versions. This has been tried before as i mentioned..and failed miserably. The Arabians who worshiped different Gods and were willing to consider Mohammed as just another messenger failed. Now it would be good if one looked up what defines a Muslim. This strand of thinking is nothing but simplistic harakiri IMHO.

What has been "tried before", as I explained, is the exact opposite of what I am proposing. Mohammed tried that as a means to expand the Ummah, under circumstances very different from the present day.

When you say " Look Up What defines a Muslim", by whose definition? On what authority? Did Martin Luther look up the Papal definition of what defines a Christian? No, he found justification in the texts.

A jamboree of texts, means more sources and opportunities in which to couch "hereticism" (not "hypocrisy" as you call it) as legitimate. When Shias decided to advance the line that Ali was the First Imam (based on the argument that only Allah can nominate his representative, Prophet or Imam, hence the elevation of Abu Bakr as Caliph by the people was "un-Islamic")... they too found Hadiths to cite in favour of their argument. It was not accepted by all Mullahs; but it produced a schism that survives to this day.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Sep 2011 14:34

Rudradev wrote:they too found Hadiths to cite in favour of their argument. It was not accepted by all Mullahs; but it produced a schism that survives to this day.

Why create Schism when there is a big Rift valley between the two. Let this rift valley grow bigger and let there be a bridge of understanding between the two peaks

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 17 Sep 2011 14:35

harbans wrote:
What I've proposed is the exact opposite. Surround Mohammed with a multitude of other Gods, and worship ALL of them.
Rudradev Ji, that's exactly the atmosphere under which Mohammed thrived. Mohammed and his men were a small minority surrounded by a multitude of Gods being worshiped from a central Temple..Kaaba. Mohammed faced that, succeeded and converted those who outnumbered and surrounded him. The Kaaba is now central to Purist Islam.

Sir ji, you are extrapolating from one snapshot without looking at the "before" or "after". That snapshot is, "Mohammed surrounded by a multitude of other Gods." And you come to the conclusion that this necessarily means Mohammed will prevail! Why? Are you ascribing some sort of supernatural ability to Mohammed, or to Islam?

Mohammed surrounded by other Gods can be put there by Mohammed himself, at HIS initiative, for the purpose of inveigling other faiths into accepting the godhood of his Allah.

Or Mohammed can be put there by people of a Dharmic tradition on THEIR initiative (about 1500 years later by the way), to assimilate the Islam of their land into their traditions... unraveling a pan-Islamist, transnational Ummah in the process.

To say that Dharmics will fail where Mohammed succeeded, betrays a fear that Dharmics somehow lack the capacity to hold fast to the core traditional values of their faith. Why should we assume any such thing?

Without context, the one snapshot you are looking at, means nothing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2011 14:37

My personal take on Islam is that I am not really bothered what a given bunch of people believe as long as violence is absent. No violence. Period. No violence in the name of religion. If your religion happens to tell you that violence must be used against some group or person - tough shit. I am rabidly against your religion. You have the right to practice worship of perverts if you wish. But no violence. That is the bottom line.

As long as that bottom line is mandatorily imposed - I would say "Do what you like. Elect whoever you want"

If you note the usual excuses that Islamists give for violence - it is usually "You started it. You religion asks you to be violent" etc. Well other religions can also ask for peace. Can you guys do that?

Islam will always survive. Islam will thrive. But Islam needs to be wrung dry of all its calls for violence against non Muslims. There can be a.b.s.o.l.u.t.e.l.y No dilution of that demand. Islam needs to become a religion of peace first. People who call it a religion of peace are bullshitting. That MUST be changed by coercion if need be. Yo you half wit Paki lurkers? D'you hear?

You buggers don't even have the balls to stop your own pious ones from murdering each other? WTF? Agreed you guys don't fear death and I welcome death for you. But hey - you can get broads if you guys can get a life. What?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2011 15:04

Expect even more high level paki *** licking of the chinese to offset this.

Obama Refuses to Meet, Pak PM Calls Off Visit: Report

Sep 17, 2011

Pakistan Premier Yousuf Raza Gilani called off at the eleventh hour his planned visit to the US after President Barack Obama refused to meet him on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly session, a media report said here today.

The Prime Minister's House announced yesterday that Gilani had called off his visit as he intended to personally supervise relief operations in flood-hit areas of Sindh, but the Dawn newspaper quoted its sources as saying that one reason for the move was the US President's "refusal to meet" Gilani on the sidelines of the UN session in New York.

Gilani has now directed Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar to represent Pakistan at the UN General Assembly session.

There were indications that the strained relations between Pakistan and the US had led to Gilani canceling his trip to America, where he was to address the UN General Assembly session, the daily reported.

The Pakistan embassy in Washington and the Consulate General in New York had "tried hard to arrange a meeting between Prime Minister Gilani and President Barack Obama but failed," the report said.

The visit was cancelled at the "eleventh hour" and "all arrangements related to the trip, such as issuance of tickets to members of the delegation and their hotel bookings in New York, had been finalised," the report said.

"Supervision of flood relief efforts is an excuse, because only this week the Prime Minister had a couple of days' trip to Iran," a journalist, who was to accompany Gilani to New York, was quoted as saying.

Gilani had yesterday responded to the US criticism of Pakistan's efforts in the war on terror by saying that it was "now time that they (United States) should do more" in the campaign against terrorists.

He said Pakistan had "sacrificed much in battling the menace of terrorism" and the country should not be "pressurised to do more."

Pakistan-US relations hit a new low after the covert US raid that killed al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in the garrison city of Abbottabad in May.

US officials, including Vice President Joe Biden and Defence Secretary Leon Panetta, have recently called on Pakistan to do more against terrorists.

Panetta blamed Pakistan-based militants for the latest Taliban attack on the US embassy in Kabul while Biden described Pakistan as an unreliable ally in the war on terror.

The US has renewed pressure on Pakistan to act against the Haqqani network, which has been linked to the attack on the American embassy in Kabul.

The US says the Haqqani network of Taliban has safe havens in Pakistan's tribal belt near the Afghan border.

NikhilB · Post by **NikhilB** » 17 Sep 2011 15:05

Rudradevji,

You are counting too much on 1.2 billion Indians. We indians do not say any one thing in one cohesive voice - that has never had happened. We always had thosuands of voices and opinions. So having 1.2 billions Indianised muslims in India is fatansy, we can not even have 1 billion Indiansed Hindus or Indics first as cohesive entity. Politically yes, socially no.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2011 15:15

there was bum blast in a funural procession in TSP a few days ago. Now the pakiban have come with a statement which is Pakistani Taliban vow to attack weddings and funerals of their enemies

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 17 Sep 2011 15:24

To say that Dharmics will fail where Mohammed succeeded, betrays a fear that Dharmics somehow lack the capacity to hold fast to the core traditional values of their faith. Why should we assume any such thing?

Because there is an example where Dharmics failed to integrate Islam: Pakistan and Afghanistan. The dharmic lands today house 45% of an Islamic population. Most of them believe in the fundamental adage that being a Muslim means "There is ONLY ONE Allah and Muhammed is his SOLE Messenger". There is no wishy washing around that one.

That snapshot is, "Mohammed surrounded by a multitude of other Gods." And you come to the conclusion that this necessarily means Mohammed will prevail! Why? Are you ascribing some sort of supernatural ability to Mohammed, or to Islam?

Rudradev Ji, Mohammed did prevail. There is an example before us in his very lifetime. Very few in Shah's Iran believed that with Khominei coming things will change. Society was liberal, discotheques and booze was common. Women wore the same as what Western women did. Just one Fatwa and a few hoodlums with whips comprising foot soldiers of the Ministry of 'Vice and Virtue' changed Iran overnight. Next day saw women behind the shuttlecock. The lahori landlords who saw Pakistan in the making who didn't want to leave there lands adopted Muslim names thinking there was no problem as Lahore both Hindu and Muslim represented one of India's most educated and elite societies. We now know the reality of what is required if at all to Talibanize Lahori society..there is no example of success in what you say. What i see in your POV is that Truth will not succeed in the face of faith. Our Dharmic motto has always stressed that Truth=God. That Truth alone shall triumph. So why give up on that? So we want to stand up for everything..which really means we stand for nothing. And those who stand up for nothing..really fall for anything.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 17 Sep 2011 16:46

Sometimes I get a feeling that there are several people who collectively post under one username or that shiv saar is beset with multiple personalities..

no disrespect sir.

The most probable reason is that shiv saar is out on his ocassional fishing sojourns to wind us all up.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Sep 2011 17:06

Interesting line of discussion.

1. Why is it that as pe the logic propounded, and I feel prima facie that it is quite a solid one actually, it is the Hindus (and I presume Sikhs, Jains, Christians, Jews and all else) who must say they are all Muslims, and not the Muslims whom must say they are all Hindus? Let's say a Muslim asks that question, what would be the answer?

2. I would suppose that one answer to that is that this is the only way to actually dilute the larger threat that absolute and exclusivist Islam poses to Indian civilisation as it has played out since millennia. But is there no way that is less requiring of sacrifices, and by necessity a fundamental change among Hindus and others themselves (because Islam is not merely code, it is ritual also), to achieve the same end - say with a rigorous emphasis (which Pranav proposes) on the various fundamental freedoms that are explicitly denied in Islam?

3. Would the Indian Muslims themselves buy into this approach? On a practical level, doing this grand civilisational sleight of hand - because it appears basically that's what it is - is something that is going to be obvious to all.

4. My personal opinion is that Indian civilisation (fundamentlaly frameworked and underpinned by the Sanatana Dharma) is not dying, but rather is now reawakening (even these discussions are a reflection of that in my view). And I think that we can much more safely assume that a renewed emphasis on the fundamentals of this worldview including a rejection of violence, coercion or co-option as a method to transmit faith systems, will be far more effective in pushing back religious ideologies that advocate the same. I'm not sure we can succeed in that by recognising the validity of such ideas. On the contrary, the best approach I think is the one touched on by shiv: "I am not really bothered what a given bunch of people believe as long as violence is absent. No violence. Period. No violence in the name of religion. If your religion happens to tell you that violence must be used against some group or person - tough shit. I am rabidly against your religion. You have the right to practice worship of perverts if you wish. But no violence. That is the bottom line. As long as that bottom line is mandatorily imposed - I would say 'Do what you like. Elect whoever you want' ...Islam needs to be wrung dry of all its calls for violence against non Muslims. There can be a.b.s.o.l.u.t.e.l.y No dilution of that demand."

Finally, maybe this needs another thread? "Analysis of Political Islam etc"... Please can someone start it, and copy paste relevant posts, because I've tried t his before and ended just fu(king it up and had to delete

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Sep 2011 17:54

GUYS!!!

I believe, this discussion started by Y I Patel ji and Rudradev ji deserves a dedicated thread for it. So in GDF, I have created a new thread for the purpose - "Indicization of Indian Islam - Blazing New Paths".

I have already cross-posted most of your posts there.

PLEASE CONTINUE THERE

Three discussions are already there:

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Sep 2011 17:57

From here,

Why did ISI break from its post-9/11 position of limiting the number and scale of operations against India? Tankel interprets ISI's involvement in the Mumbai attack as stemming from ISI's concerns that a large-scale operation was needed to keep LeT intact and indisposed to joining TTP attacks on the Pakistani army and state.

This is something we have repeatedly emphasized in BRf too.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2011 18:01

jai ho.

Gobbling up whatever it can, however it can, begging bowl intact, jinnah's moth eaten child.

Pakistan to end IMF programme

ISLAMABAD: The finance minister and his team are off to Washington to preside over the end of the current IMF programme. Of the nine programmes that Pakistan got into with the Fund, eight have been unsuccessful.

The government’s inability to implement three major economic policy commitments — limiting fiscal deficit to 4.7 per cent of GDP, introducing integrated value added tax (VAT) and power sector reforms — will lead to technical completion of an unsuccessful $11.3 billion programme with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on September 30, according to Finance Minister Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh.

This is the eighth programme with the IMF to conclude on an unsuccessful note. On the eve of the departure of Pakistan’s economic team for Washington to attend annual meetings of the IMF and World Bank, the finance minister told journalists that Pakistan would not waste its energy on revival of the incomplete programme or seek a fresh programme owing to a comfortable external balance of payments position.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2011 18:14

eh what? shiv has many avatars but he needs only his ling for screwing.

More seriously. Some expressions that cause a red flag to be raised on BRF include words like "Islamic influence" ans "syncretic culture". As far as I can tell a large majority of objections revolve around the alleged mixing of an ostensibly egregious dry desert "Islamic culture" with a rich Indian tradition. This is denied as nonsense - as a figment of the imagination of names like Sagarka someone, WKKs and assorted traitors who do not represnt the true India, Indian, dharmic culture.

But as I see it the "syncretism" had very little to do with religion and everything to do with governance and communication.I had listed some legal terms in a earlier post that are deeply enmeshed in our legal traditions like khata and waqalat nama. I suspect that words like tehsil, tehsildar, vakil and taluk are all words that have come down to us from a legal system that was not religion, but implemented by Islamic rulers. I would be happy to be corrected. Naipaul has a very nice reference in one of his books of the black robes of judges and professors in Britain, a tradition later exporte to India. In fact it is derived from Islamic jurisprudence and based on the robes of the ulema. The ulema as far as I can tell means "learned ones". They served both as "professors" and as "judges" in ancient Persia (I think), That is how both judges and professors ended up wearing long flowing robes of black. Is this "syncretism"? Well you can take the call. But it cerainly has "Islamic origins". Not Mahomet. Not Mecca. But all the above things are embedded in Indiia as evidence of Islamic influence. Denying such influence is silly. Trying to remove such influence is probably equally silly.

I am no classical dance connoisseur. Classical dunce maybe. But Kathak is an ancient Indian dance form that was deeply influenced by dancers being brought into Mughal courts. The Sitar is an ancient Indian instrument that existed long before Mahomet. But the name, I am told is Persian.

Pakibenchods are completely and Jinnahcally mad to try and remove all the influence India has on them. Heck even their friggin discarded foreskins are Indian origin. It would be a travesty if we tied to go back on Indian history and try and split the Islamic from the pre islamic and make a fake connection between our beautiful music and dance and civilization and Islam and say "heck we need to weed out this crap" or even deny that influences exist. Frankly I bet at least some us us will have the gene markers that Gengis Khan left behind. How do we remove that? I think it is ignorant to deny that the coming of Islam and the cross pollination of culture did not occur or needs to be removed. I think a lot of people actully fall for the mocking tone used by Pakis in "We ruled you" and then end up in a mental mess and try to remove everything of "islamic origin" to prove that "No we wern't rule". We have an inferiority complex problem if we try that. Just like Pakis are trying desperately to weed out India.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Sep 2011 18:36

shiv wrote:I think a lot of people actully fall for the mocking tone used by Pakis in "We ruled you" and then end up in a mental mess and try to remove everything of "islamic origin" to prove that "No we wern't rule". We have an inferiority complex problem if we try that. Just like Pakis are trying desperately to weed out India.

Pakis never ruled India. Pakis were the ones, who were the first to prostrate in front of the invaders. They were the ones to be ruled. They were the First Coward aka First Lady of that era.

Cowardice is written on every GUBO stamp on their sorry musharrafs.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 17 Sep 2011 19:00

shiv wrote:eh what? shiv has many avatars but he needs only his ling for screwing.

Hear hear

.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Sep 2011 19:13

RajeshA wrote:GUYS!!!
I believe, this discussion started by Y I Patel ji and Rudradev ji deserves a dedicated thread for it. So in GDF, I have created a new thread for the purpose - "Indicization of Indian Islam - Blazing New Paths".
I have already cross-posted most of your posts there.
PLEASE CONTINUE THERE

For Poaqgerms here,
Dont be fooled by Indians habit of washing the crows and churning water in hope of extracting butter.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2011 19:41

A.Q. Khan report by Pakistan ISI.

Published September 15, 2011
FoxNews.com

The following is the A.Q. Khan report by Pakistan ISI.

After hearing press complaints and information coming out from various sources after agreements, first by Iran and then Libya, to abandon their programmes of weapons of mass destruction, the Government of Pakistan took a very serious note of the allegations made by various international newspapers and media and started an intensive, thorough and aggressive investigation against a number of scientists and engineers who had anything to do with the production, assembling and testing of centrifuge components and machines as well as those responsible for the import and export of equipment and materials. The Director General of Security and the Director General of Maintenance and General Services were also detained for thorough investigation. The Principal Engineer of the Design Office, who had been abroad for 4 years, had just returned and was also detained. Similarly, the Director General Process Division who was responsible for keeping records of UF6 gas and the Director General Health Physics who kept the records of incoming natural gas and outgoing depleted gas, uranium metal etc. were also detained. The founding father of KRL, Dr. A.Q. Khan, was also interrogated 3 times for many hours by the DG ISI and the DG SPD.

The investigation has yielded the following results:
1. When the organization was set up in mid 1976, a free hand was given
to the Project Director to acquire each and everything through any
means. There was a direct and imminent threat to Pakistan’s security and existence in the wake of the dismemberment of the country in 1971 and after the Indian nuclear test in 1974.
2. Gen. Ziaul Haq had openly proclaimed that to “beg, borrow or steal” was the policy of the day in the light of the imposition of stringent embargoes and restrictions on any nuclear-related materials and equipment to Pakistan.
3. Pakistan, being an under-developed country with no industrial infra-structure, had to buy each and every bit of material and piece of equipment surreptitiously from abroad in the open market and had to establish a network of cover companies within the country and outside to by-pass embargoes and import all the necessary items. Such companies were operating in Kuwait, Bahrain, U.A.E., Singapore, U.K., Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland etc.
4. Since no industrial infra-structure was available within the country, production drawing of all the components of the centrifuge machines were sent to England, France, Germany, Switzerland, Holland etc. for the placing of orders for the thousands of components and equipment required in order to expedite the work, which was a race against time.
5. Dubai, having no customs formalities or restrictions and no financial impediments, was made the main operating centre. All the foreign suppliers (Dutch, British, French, Turkish, Belgian, Swiss, German etc.) were regularly coming to Dubai to discuss offers and orders. A company named Ben Belilah Enterprises BBE), owned by an Arab police officer, was introduced by Mr. A. Salam, a British national. BBE had a Sri Lankan Manager named Farooq. Salam and Farooq, both being Tamils, were good friends. Due to the frequent meetings between our experts and the foreign suppliers, sets of almost all the drawings were kept in Dubai in a flat that had been rented especially for this purpose so they wouldn’t have to be carried to and fro all the time.
6. Due to religious and idealogical affinity, Pakistanis had great affection for Iran. Former COAS, Gen. Aslam Beg was in favour of very close cooperation in the nuclear field in lieu of financial assistance promised to him towards Pakistan’s defence budget. Benazir Bhutto’s government came under a lot of pressure for cooperation and under this pressure and the decision/approval/directive of Gen. Imtiaz Ali, Adviser on Defence (including nuclear matters) to the Prime Minister, KRL gave some drawings and components to Iran for R & D work. The information given was by no means sufficient to enable Iran to establish even a small pilot plant, not to talk of a fully fledged centrifuge plant or produce nuclear weapons. The Iranians already had excellent contacts with European suppliers and they also started importing components and equipment through Dubai (Farooq). For some time there was close cooperation through Farooq. The Iranians wanted drawings etc. of valves, inverters, control panels, cascades etc. from Farooq and they gave him $ 5 million to help them in their efforts to acquire this information. Farooq gave some money to Dr. Niazi who had arranged the initial contact between him (Farooq) and the Iranians and some he transferred to his own accounts. Part of the money was put in an account in the fictitious name of Haider Zaman, which first Farooq and later on Tahir (Farooq’s nephew) and Dr. A.Q. Khan could operate. This account was opened personally by Farooq. Some of the money from this account was used by Tahir for payments etc. and some was donated for vaious social, educational and welfare projects undertaken by Dr. A.Q. Khan in Pakistan.
7. The Iranians needed some P-1 (early discarded model) components. They approached Tahir to request Farooq, an engineer in KRL, to send them these components. These were old components that were no longer being used by KRL and were not sufficient or adequate for the establishment of a small pilot plant or to produce nuclear weapons.
8. If it is true, but this is highly unlikely, that there were some traces of uranium in the Iranian facilities, there is just the remotest off chance that one or more KRL components inadvertently had traces of UF6 gas on them that had not been properly decontaminated before shipment.
9. Farooq (Sri Lanka) was the main contact with the Libyans through Dr. Niazi. He brought the suppliers in contact with them and gave copies of all the drawings etc. which Dr. A.Q. Khan had kept in Dubai for discussions with the suppliers. These drawings also included those of the device, as Dr. Khan was ordering components from England, Switzerland etc. His own old notes were also kept there for necessary use. Farooq and/or Tahir had access to the flat as they were maintaining it and they must have given copies of all the papers to the Libyans. The Libyans gave Farooq/Tahir $ 5 million, some of which they gave to Dr. Niazi, some they transferred to India, Singapore etc. and some was put in the account of the fictitious Haider Zaman. Some money from this account was used by Tahir for payments to suppliers etc. and some was again donated for social, welfare and educational projects in Pakistan run by Dr. Khan.
10. The Iranian affair was closed long ago, but the Libyans were trying to acquire components and equipment from abroad via Dubai either through Tahir or directly from other suppliers in Europe.
11. Whatever assistance was given was done in order to maintain friendly relations between the concerned country and us. It was never seriously believed this would lead to anything as they were scientifically and technologically backward countries unable even to establish a pilot plant of this nature or produce nuclear weapons.
12. It is most unfortunate that these things happened due to the peculiar nature of the circumstances and loose arrangements in those early days and because of the personal obligations of previous governments to these countries. There is a very strict command and control system now under the National Command Authority and nothing can be leaked out or taken away from any facilities any more. Fortunately, these happenings have not done irreparable damage to weapons control regimes and have awakened everyone all over the world to the danger of the vast underground network of western suppliers of this most sensitive and dangerous technology.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2011 19:46

A Letter Written by A.Q. Khan to His Wife

Published September 15, 2011
| FoxNews.com

The following is a letter from A.Q. Khan to his wife.

Editor’s notes:
1) This is a transcription of a handwritten 2003 letter from A.Q. Khan to his wife.
2) Material in brackets [ ] are clarifications by editor.
3) Deleted: address, phone number & email for journalist Simon Henderson, referenced in original.10/12/2003 [10 December 2003]

Darling,

If the government plays any mischief with me take a tough stand:

(1)You know we had cooperation with China for 15 years. We put up a centrifuge plant at Hanzhong (km250 south-west of Xian). We sent 135 C-130 plane loads of machines, inverters, valves, flow meters, pressure gauges. Our teams stayed there for weeks to help and their teams stayed here for weeks at a time. Late minister Liu We, V. M. [vice minister] Li Chew, Vice Minister Jiang Shengjie used to visit us.

(2)The Chinese gave us drawings of the nuclear weapon, gave us kg50 enriched uranium, gave us 10 tons of UF6 (natural) and 5 tons of UF6 (3%).
Chinese helped PAEC [Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, the rival organisation to the Khan Research Laboratories] in setting up UF6 plant, production reactor for plutonium and reprocessing plant.

[Page 2]

(3) Probably with the blessings of BB [Benazir Bhutto] & Gen [Aslam] Beg , Gen Imtiaz asked Hashmi [a former colleague of AQK] & me to give a set of drawings and some components to the Iranians. We had no direct contact and we never sent anybody or received anybody. The names and addresses of suppliers were also given to the Iranians.

[Note in margin] Gave these things through Dr Niazi [Bhutto family dentist and confidant, now dead]. Must have got money for it ($1 million).

(4) Gen Jehangir Karamat [still alive, chief of army staff 1996-8, sent by Musharraf as ambassador to U.S. 2004-2006] took $3 million through me from the N Koreans and asked me to give them some drawings and machines.

(5) We sold [conventional] weapons to Libya, Sudan & Malaysia. And sent [conventional] weapons to Bosnia. [Khan’s KRL plant also made anti-tank missiles and shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles.]

(6) There is proof of all this stashed somewhere safely which will be given to public and press.

[Page 3]

Use Major Islam or Hashmi [former colleagues of A Q Khan] and get S M Zafar [lawyer of AQK] to take up these matters in court/public.
Get in touch with Simon Henderson
[Address, phone numbers, email deleted]
And give him all the details.

Ask Henk [Slebos, part of Khan’s purchasing network in the Netherlands] to get a guy from Telegraaf and give him all the details.

Tell them the ******** first used us and now playing dirty games with us.

Love you
Khantje [diminutive name used between Khan and his wife]

Get out quickly to Dubai with Tanya [grand-daughter who lives with them] for a while or leave Tanya with Ayesha [daughter who lives in Islamabad].

[Page 4]

I believe they want to make me a scapegoat as Mr Wajid Shamsul Hassan (former HC [high commissioner] in London) had warned in an article (with Major Islam).

They might try to get rid of me to cover up all the things (dirty) they got done by me in connection with Iran, Libya & N. Korea.

This is just to forewarn you.

A Q Khan

Dr A Q Khan
NI & Bar, HI

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2011 19:51

A.Q. Khan's Thirteen-Page Confession

A.Q. Khan's Thirteen-Page Confession

Published September 15, 2011
FoxNews.com

The following is the thirteen-page confession of A.Q. Khan.

I was in Belgium in December 1971 and had just submitted by Ph.D. thesis when I saw the most painful and humiliating scenes of the surrender of the Pakistan Army in Dacca. To see our officers and jawans with crosses on their backs and their heads shaven being herded like cattle by Indian soldiers being kicked and hit with sticks was such a traumatic scene that I would never forget it my whole life long.

In May 1974 I was working as a Senior Scientist at FDO in Amsterdam and had specialized in uranium enrichment technology, the most advanced and the most complicated technology that the Dutch, the Germans and the British had perfected after spending billions of dollars over a 20 year period. Even today it is the best technology for enriching uranium.

On 18th May, 1974 the Indians exploded their first nuclear weapon. Appreciating the immediate dangers posed to Pakistan’s security and very existence, I offered my services to the Prime Minister, Mr. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. On 20th December 1974 I paid a short visit and explained the whole process to the Prime Minister and told him that I could give Pakistan nuclear capability. After explaining the process to Munir Ahmed Khan, Chairman PAEC, we went back to Holland. On 21st December 1975 we again came on holiday. I went to see the progress of the work done in one year, which turned out to be almost nil. I explained this to the Prime Minister, who asked me to stay back and send my resignation to FDO. It was a tough decision for me and my family but we decided to stay so I could serve my beloved Pakistan. I was appointed Advisor to PAEC in June 1976. For six months I had worked without being paid and under miserable and disgusting conditions. I was later paid Rs. 3,000 per month.

Working under PAEC proved to be impossible, hence the Prime Minister detached the Project from PAEC and made it independent under a Board of Coordination with Mr. A.G.M. Kazi (Chairman), Mr. Agha Shahi (Secretary General Foreign Affairs) and Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan (Secretary General Defence ) as members. We were to work directly under the Prime Minister.

One should not forget that I had brought with me technology, experience and personal notes worth billions of dollars. Without my knowledge and experience, Pakistan could never - repeat never - have become a nuclear power. It was only because of my initiative, knowledge and achievements that our nation can walk straight and tall today!

How I organized the work, set up the facilities and organized a most efficient network of companies to import materials and equipment is part of our history. I personally supervised each and every aspect of the Project and prepared the drawings and specifications to give to the suppliers. I trained hundreds of scientists and engineers who were initially totally ignorant of this high technology. The speed of the work and our achievements surprised our worst enemies and adversaries and the West stood helplessly by to see a Third World nation, unable even to produce bicycle chains or sewing needles, mastering the most advanced nuclear technology in the shortest possible span of time.

Our mastery of this most advanced and invaluable technology enabled us to sign a historic contract for a giant plant in China. Because of my assistance to the Chinese, they in turn helped Munir Ahmed Khan in various projects that had been stagnating for years (i.e. UF6, Reprocessing, Conversion, Production Reactor etc.).

By 1984 we had conducted successful cold tests and had manufactured all components for 30 nuclear devices. Upon my personal request, the Chinese Minister for Nuclear Technology had gifted us Kg 50 of weapon-grade enriched uranium, enough for 2 weapons. This gift clearly illustrates the importance the Chinese attached to the enrichment technology they received from me. I had asked for this to neutralize Indian nuclear blackmail and the imminent security threat to our country.

Work was progressing very fast and I worked 14 to 16 hours a day, 7 days a week to get the job done against all odds, against all embargoes and despite the non-availability of trained manpower or expertise.

In August 1988 President Gen. Ziaul Haq died in a tragic air crash. Elections were held and Benazir Bhutto became the Prime Minister. Gen. Imtiaz, former M.S. to Mr. Bhutto, became Advisor on Defence to the Prime Minister and took over the supervision of the nuclear programme.

In 1985 the revolution in Iran took place and there were many in Pakistan who sympathized with the revolution and change of dress code. Kahuta had a large number of Shias working there. One senior officer, Hanif Khalil, was even reported to have contacted the Iranian Ambassador, Mr. Mousavi, but, apprehensive of overzealousness and leakage to favour Iran, I warned him to be more cautious and carefull.

In 1989 or 1990 COAS, Gen. Aslam Beg, promised to give the Iranians a few weapons and technology in lieu of 10 years of our defence budget. The Iranian Army Chief, Shamkani, flew to Islamabad in his own plane to pick up the weapons and papers. Admiral Sirohey as Chairman JCSC had a hard time trying to get out of this commitment, in which he succeeded. Later there was a lot of pressure by the COAS on Gen. Imtiaz and P.M. Benazir Bhutto to honour his commitment. Under pressure, Gen. Imtiaz asked Dr. Hashmi (I was out of station) to give some centrifuge parts and drawings etc. to the Iranians. He (Hashmi) asked him to wait until my return. When I got back, Gen. Imtiaz advised me to get components of two old (P-1) discarded machines and pack them into boxes together with 2 sets of drawings prepared by the late Mr. Khokhar. These drawings on their own were not sufficiently detailed to enable mastery of this difficult technology. The components and drawings were handed over to the late Dr. M.Z. Niazi for further disposal. As you know, Dr. Niazi was a confidante of Benazir Bhutto and Gen. Imtiaz.

It was some time in 1994 or 1995 that Dr. Niazi requested me to see a few Iranian scientists passing through Karachi from China on their way to Dubai and then on to Teheran. I met them in our guesthouse in Karachi for about half an hour. I did not know any of them and they didn’t give any names. They said that they could not make any progress with their programme and asked whether it would be possible for me to visit them or to send a team for a few weeks. I flatly told them that it was not possible to have that kind of contact. They then asked a few simple questions and I advised them to study the available scientific literature, which contained all the information they were asking for. They seemed to be ignorant of the basic knowledge available in publications.

During Gen. Zia’s rule, Benazir, her family, Gen. Imtiaz and Dr. Niazi were financially supported by Col. Gaddafi. It was reliably reported that Col. Gaddafi had given $ 200 million to the late Mr. Z.A. Bhutto to launch our nuclear programme. This was confirmed by Mr. Khalid Hassan, Press Secretary to Mr. Bhutto, in the mischievous BBC film “Project 706 - The Islamic Bomb”. I believe that one set of the drawings and components given by me was given to the Iranians and the other to the Libyans.

Dr. Z.K. Niazi used to travel between Dubai, Tripoli and London and in Dubai he became friendly with Farooq of Sri Lanka through a British common friend named Peter. He probably brought a Libyan in contact with Farooq and asked him to arrange a meeting during one of my trips to Turkey.

Once when we went to Istanbul (I donot know the date) to have discussions with Dr. Heilingbrunner, Lerch and Ruegg, Farooq (Sri Lanka) told me that a friend of Dr. Niazi’s would like to see me in the nearby Sheraton Hotel. We were staying at Hotel Dilson, Taksim Square. I met the gentleman, a plump darkish person who introduced himself as Magid or Mageed. He said that they wanted to start some R & D programme in the enrichment field and had been given assurances of Pakistan Government assistance. I said they lacked the trained manpower and infra-structure. He said that they could still start learning and do some laboratory experiments. I gave him a brief idea of how complex and difficult the whole technology was. After about half an hour we left and he said he would contact Farooq (Sri Lanka) whenever necessary. He was not a technical person.

We did not hear from them for years and then during one of our trips to Turkey to meet our Turkish and Swiss suppliers, Tahir (nephew of Farooq) said that his uncle had phoned to say that a gentleman from Libya was there to see us. I met this gentleman with Tahir. He was of medium stature, average weight and a bit bald. He introduced himself as an Engineer and the name I understood was Mahfooz (you mentioned it as Matooq). He said he was now planning to start the programme as nothing had been done so far and he wanted to start on a small laboratory scale. I told him the plant needed a lot of space and many workshops and manpower. He said that they could go underground, to which I replied that it was not possible for such a big plant with all the facilities to go underground. Since he was planning on a small scale, he thought they might set up a farm of camels or goats and put one or two small sheds in between to put up the laboratory and start training the people in various technologies (vacuum, welding process, computer etc.). I suggested they first send enough people abroad for degrees/training and then start the research programme. He seemed to like that idea. We met for about half an hour at the most. We did not meet again for a long time. After 4 or 5 years, while in Dubai, Tahir invited us to dinner in his flat and the whole Matooq family (9 or 10 people) was there too. He said that they were now starting the work and that he was in touch with foreign suppliers. These had agreed to supply components, equipment etc. through Dubai and other countries. I just listened, being sure in my mind that there was not a committed approach and that they would not be able to achieve much. What they needed was commitment and trained manpower, neither of which they had. I met this same gentleman at dinner at Tahir’s place once or twice more over a period of 4 to 5 years. On those occasions he never discussed any technical matters or asked any questions. I only heard him discuss payment problems to suppliers with Tahir. Tahir once mentioned that Matooq was always taking away quite a bit of money for his personal use. There was always a young man named Karim with him. The last time I met him was in Casablanca for half an hour at tea when we were going to Timbuktu. Tahir said he had asked to see him there as the suppliers were making his life difficult. Tahir asked him to send some money as quickly as possible as the suppliers were pressing him very hard and chasing him. Matooq neither gave me any detail of his work nor asked any questions. I was aware that Tahir was assisting him with the placing of orders according to the supplier’s quotations. It was business between user and supplier. The suppliers had all the drawings that we had originally given them as well as their own modified drawings and were, thus, in a position to supply the requested or suggested products, make their own suggestions and/or submit quotations. Even when we met the last time, I was sure that the Libyans were unable to run any machine properly, not to talk of enrichment. Since I never visited their country or saw any film of their facilities, I did not know anything about their programme. I had heard that they had not even erected a single shed to do some preliminary work.

Western suppliers were supplying components etc. and one factory in Malaysia, owned by the son of the Malaysian Prime Minister, Ahmad Badawi, was producing milk/oil tankers, liquid petroleum tankers etc. A Swiss Engineer had put up some machines in this factory to manufacture some components. The components intercepted on the ship near Italy were reportedly manufactured there. Pakistan or KRL had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

At one time Tahir asked if he could hire some retired/nearly retired engineers for his factory. Farooq (KRL) was quite unhappy at being demoted and was interested in a good job. Mr. Nasimuddin was nearing LPR and wanted to find a job abroad as his children were studying in the U.S.A. I asked them to send their C.V.s to Malaysia. Mr. Nasimuddin paid a visit there but did not like the place and preferred a government job in the Middle East. Farooq showed some interest, but then preferred to stay back as he was hoping that Mr. Azmat would retire and that he would again be promoted to the post of D.G. That was the end of their interest in Malaysia.

If the Libyans have any papers/drawings bearing our name or signatures etc, they must have obtained them either from Farooq (Sri Lanka), Tahir or our old suppliers, as the two first-mentioned had them in Dubai for our use.

I have heard that Tahir is being interrogated by the Malysian, American and British authorities and is telling all sorts of stories to save himself. He must be saying the things that the interrogators want to hear from him, even though they may be incorrect.

I did not ask anybody in KRL to send any gas to Libya and it is impossible to get 2 tons of gas out of Kahuta without this discrepancy being found out or caught. Our material balance sheet is foolproof. If one believes in the disappearance of this quantity of gas, one could also accept the possibility of the disappearance of Kg 200 or 300 weapon-grade material, which is also impossible.

The suggestion that I ever asked for a Libyan passport is both ludicrous and preposterous. I lived in Europe for 15 years and could have got nationality of Germany, Holland or Belgium, but I was proud to keep my Pakistani passport. H.H. Prince Mamdouh bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud, brother of King Fahd, offered us (Gen. Chowhan, Dr. Nazeer and me) Saudi passports during one of our visists to the Islamic Development Bank meetings in Jeddah, but I very politely refused. H.H. Gen. Shaikh Mohammad bin Zayed, Chief of the U.A.E. Armed Forces and Deputy Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, offered me U.A.E. nationality many times together with a luxurious villa, which I also politely refused. I discarded all these lucrative and attractive offers and preferred to work and live in Pakistan.

Iran

The Iranians went on their own to buy, process or manufacture components and equipment. We did not hear from them for years. Some 10 odd years ago Tahir asked for some P-1 components from Farooq (KRL). I don’t remember the exact details. As you mentioned, some small components (200 sets) were collected from our old, discarded stock or a few may have been manufactured and sent by Farooq (KRL) to Tahir, who then probably passed them on to some Iranians. There were no casings, bases, feed systems, scoops etc. Without this system the machine is useless and hence the components were of little value in the overall project. Furthermore, the components were old, mostly rejected due to being out-of-tolerances. They could, at the most, be useful for assembling a few machines but it would not have been possible to make them run to the desired speed. You have to be extremely competent and expert to assemble, balance and run these machines to full speed (63,000 rpm). I allowed it as it was earlier sanctioned by Gen. Imtiaz and the Government and it would keep the Iranians happy and our friendship with them in tact. That the Iranians failed to achieve any progress in 15 years, shows the complexities and extreme technical expertise required to master this technology.

It is most unfortunate that, having been betrayed by their own opposition nationals (Mujahideen Khalq Group) and having failed in their effort to achieve any progress, the Iranians have reportedly pointed their finger at us and are now putting us into trouble. They say that they have not given any names or sources from Pakistan. This was emphatically assured and conveyed to me through Izaz Jaffery by ex-Ambassador Agha Siraj Mousavi himself.

The spirit behind giving some assistance to Iran or Libya was to maintain friendly relations between them and us. At no time did I seriously believe that they were capable of mastering this technology as they didn’t have the required infra-structure, the trained manpower or the technical know-how.
North Korea

After approval from the Prime Minister and the COAS, a contract was signed with the North Koreans for a Km 1500 surface-to-surface guided missile. A delegation led by me and including Gen. Mian Mushtaq, DGCD, Admiral Sohail Ahmed Khan, Col. Qazi, Dr. Mirza, Nasim Khan and others visited North Korea for about 5 days. Later their team came here and the deal was finalized with the participation of the then DGCD, Gen. Ziauddin, Dr. Samar Mubarakmand and Chairman Suparco, Mr. Sikander. The Korean team was officially allowed to stay at Kahuta once the products started coming. This was some time in 1993-4. They had to work in the shops and instruct our engineers and technicians in the making of the components. Most of their work was in the two machine shops that were also producing and assembling centrifuges and centrifuge sub-assemblies. They became interested in the technology and some engineers spent a lot of time with Khokhar in his shop where rotor tubes, bellows, etc. were being made and there was a test-bed of P-2. Khokhar was making the liquid fuel rocket engine and needed the Koreans the whole day on a daily basis. During the course of their stay it is quite possible that he explained some details of centrifuge machines to them.

Some time in 1996, when the missile project was in full swing, some payments from the GHQ to the Koreans were pending. Somebody from GHQ advised Gen Kang, the Korean representative, to pay some money to Gen. Ziauddin to get the money released. Gen. Kang gave him a suitcase containing $ 0.5 million. Gen. Ziauddin informed Gen. Waheed, COAS, and they returned the money to Kang. Gen. J. Karamat, CGS, came to know of this and phoned me after a few days saying that I should arrange with Gen. Kang to pay this money to him for some secret army funds. He would then sanction the payment of their outstanding charges. He phoned me a few times to expedite the matter. I talked to Gen. Kang and he gave me the $ 0.5 million in cash, which I personally delivered to Gen. J. Karamat. In the meantime Gen. Karamat became COAS and said to me that he needed more money for the same secret funds and that I should talk to Gen. Kang. Gen. Kang came back to me after a few days and said that his boss was willing to give a further $ 2.5 million, provided we helped them with the enrichment technology. They already had a production reactor and were producing plutonium. They had also manufactured a few weapons as, according to Gen. Kang’s boss, they had received Kg 200 plutonium and weapon designs from the Russians in the mid-fifties after the Korean War. They had shown Dr. Mirza and me the perfect nuclear weapon, technologically more advanced than ours. They wanted this technology only for fuel for the power reactors as it cost only 1/10 of that of the diffusion process and required only low capital investment. They were not interested in weapon-grade production of material and did not ask any questions or for drawings for specially designed cascades for weapon-grade material. I informed Gen. J. Karamat; he agreed and gave me a go-ahead. I asked my people to prepare 20 outdated P-1 machines and gave them. Since they were working in the plant and were familiar with the P-2 machines, they asked for 4 of these too. I discussed the matter with the COAS and obtained his approval. After that I personally gave the remaining $ 2.5 million to Gen. Karamat in cash at the Army House to make up the whole amount. The senior engineers at Kahuta were responsible for the Korean’s movements and work. People at the plant were mixing with them every day and taking them around or discussing things with them. I was hardly there. I used to go to Kahuta for 3 or 4 hours to do administrative work and mostly spent the time in my office or with Brig. Behram who was making a launcher, which was our priority at the time. The Koreans took the machines in their own plane with which they were bringing missile parts for us. Security Staff was always present to check incoming and outgoing cargo. Even Dr. Mirza and Nasim Khan made some control panels and software packages and gave them. The Koreans had brought some UF6 gas for analysis, which we tested and found that it was not pure enough. They requested a few Kg of depleted gas for comparison purposes, which we gave them. Technically and monetarily it had no value. One could buy such a sample from abroad. One flowmeter was given to them as a sample. A flowmeter is an ordinary instrument in a UF6 plant. It is banned for Pakistan but available in the open market in Europe. They, in return, taught us how to make Krytrons (fast switches), which were banned items and are needed in nuclear weapons detonation. This was very valuable to us.

After having been here for years, the COAS (Gen. Pervez Musharraf) desired that we should send the Koreans back immediately. They left within 3 days. After that we had no more contact with them.

I left KRL on 31.3.2001 and that was that.

As far as the destroying of any papers or gate passes is concerned, I only advised people not to keep any papers or records that could implicate Pakistan with transfer of technology or equipment to North Korea at any later stage. At that time there were various lobbies against Pakistan and I feared that these papers could, if falling into wrong hands, be used to implicate Pakistan. It was only meant as a precautionary measure.

I have done nothing against the interests of Pakistan and whatever I did could not have resulted in proliferation of nuclear weapons. It was primarily meant to keep up our friendship with those countries that had been helping Pakistan from time to time.

I would like to reiterate that I never - repeat never - ever put foot on Iranian or Libyan soil.

Dr. A.Q. Khan

In early 1989 Gen. Aslam Beg asked me if I could help the Iranians in enrichment technology so that they could also achieve nuclear capability. He was convinced that, if Iran had this capability, it would work as a shield between Pakistan on the one side and the U.S.A. and other Western countries on the other side and that these countries would then not be able to undertake any mischievous or adventurous action against Pakistan. I agreed in principle, but told him I could only do so with a go-ahead from the Government. When Gen. Imtiaz told me to do the needful, I did so as I knew he must have obtained clearance from the Prime Minister.

So also was the case with Libya. Dr. Zafar Niazi told me that it had been cleared by the Prime Minister, upon which I took the necessary action.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 17 Sep 2011 20:13

Y I Patel wrote:shiv,

Thanks for your kind words! While I am obstinate enough to dig in deeper when challenged, a kind word does give me a lot of encouragement to keep going

Patel ji and Shiv ji I am relatively newbie here and do not have the your kind of depth of knowledge on either TSP or International Relations. I agree that we should respect and accept ideas from all spectrum of opinions and not ridicule or name calling. I just wanted to bounce some thoughts on the forum that feel make me disagree with you to an extent. Though I agree in principle that we need to ensure that we have more inclusive power sharing for sections of societies.

You also need to agree that you need two hands to clap and like MMS ji we cannot keep walking extra miles over and over again when the other party has been so obtuse how can there be a meaningful relationship? Progressively I have seen that muslims of India have started to arabize themselves. Huze Saudi financed mosques with 1000 watts speakers blaring namaz 5 times a day. Dressing themselves like OBL, hijabs for girls as young as 7 years and burkha for all other womens, demands of shariah, no real attempt assimilate within the union like all other minorities. This is why you see that section of population is not as enthusuaistic about your proposal as you are.

Muslim community needs to come out and walk that extra mile to placate these emotions that any leader from that community if elected to seat of power would put nation before religion and ummah. If you ask them that question most will either beat around the bush or flatly tell you Islam comes before nation and muslim before kafir. With this kind of impression how can any one want to hand a sword in hands of proverbial monkey.

When muslims ziba their lambs in full barbaric display on streets rather than slaughter houses with scant regards to non violence principle of other faiths or block streets for friddin namaz they are not grateful to other Indians that they have been allowed to practice their faith they are just showing middle fingers to others and in their own mob mentality feeling the high of hunting in pack. I want to see how many times have Indian Muslims walked that half distance to really make us comfortable. This question or comment is not directed at anyone in particular so please dont shoot me down

Apologies if I have hurt any ones sentiments. If OT please delete it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2011 20:37

Brad Goodman wrote: Apologies if I have hurt any ones sentiments. If OT please delete it.

Btad Goodman - you are treading on territory where it is easy for anyone with a modicum of knowledge to rip your post to pieces, chew it up and spit it out. There are several ways to do that.

What i am pointing out here is that unless we have already made up our minds to agree with you and not post any arguments, we are going to get into a "sickoolar versus nationalist" argument where anyone who points out uncomfortable arguments has to be opposed and put down, or keep of the argument. In the interests of the health of BRF I will keep the arguments out but point out a "general impression" I get on BRF. It's not you or any single individual but a multitude of posts that sum up opinions on this forum.

There is a sense that India is a sacred land for some values that are called "Indic values" and that nothing about Islam comes anywhere near those values. There is also the sense that that islamic values are so powerful and have such a powerful grip on Muslims that Muslims are stuck with them like we are stuck with Muslims. Islam is an incurable disease that only increases in severity and that the poor suffering Indic values have little chance against this raving monster. Indic values seem to have no answer for this Islamic monster with its Orc like Ummah and there are constant warnings about how things are getting worse and worse.

I see this as an interesting and romantic picture of India. To cut a long story short - this picture of India is basically fake. The India that this picture portrays has gone. It does not exist any more. The people who represent those Indic values are not the sole owners of India any more, and what is worse is that the people who define Indic values have changed in character and more Indians than ever before in the history of India now have the economic clout to define what they think is "Indic". And it ain't necessarily what you may think.

In my view we have to work with what is and not what we imagine it to be. But for that we have to be wiling to know what India is now and how it is changing over time - say over every decade. And whatever India may be it is nowhere near the romantic picture described above.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2011 20:55

Some points:

1. Pakistan causes a huge distortion in the Indian perception of Islam. Pakistan is not in control of itself, let alone the definition of Islam.

2. In the absence of the intellectual precision in defining where the problem lies, everyone - every Muslim - becomes a potential enemy.

3. There is injustice happening in the large-scale in India - to everyone, not just minorities. Nevertheless, it is somewhat natural for a minority to suspect that perhaps they are a special target. The clean-up of India is a must and is the prime security challenge. Just as Chief Election Commissioner T.N. Seshan and succeeding commissioners gave people confidence in the integrity of elections and even enabled J&K to resume a semblance of normalcy, a clean-up of corruption in India will greatly increase the trust in the Indian State.

4. After viewing an exhibit of Buddhist art from Gandhara, the thought echoed - Everything that is created must perish. This is an immutable law. If not from deliberate destruction, then from age. What remains is a people's creative capacity. I wonder if the people today of what was Gandhara can create anything half as good. I don't think it is lack of ability, it is the system they are under that weights them down. The nation must nurture and protect this creative capacity. In a Taliban world an A.R. Rahman would be silenced.

5. Saudi Arabia has nothing but oil wealth; but that wealth alone is enough to create wanna-be-Arabs. India's classical age shows that in a huge area there were wanna-be-Indians. The extent of an Indian revival can be gauged by that measure. In this age, it is not just the arts, religion and philosophy but also science and technology that is important. The creative genius should not be constrained by artificially about what elements it combines.

6. The battle over religious identity continues, but is a very 19th century struggle. While everyone to the west of India still struggles with it, there is no need for India to continue with this out-of-date battle. The mistake of engaging in it would be as great as if Indian entrepreneurs ignored the software industry in favor of iron and steel. The challenge today is how to live with this accelerated globalism.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2011 21:00

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... ng/?page=1
Mohsin Hamid on why the US doesn't understand Pakistan.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2011 21:01

http://www.stimson.org/images/uploads/r ... mplete.pdf
(PDF)
Stimson Center's compilation of essays on the Crises in South Asia.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2011 21:05

^^^^From Micheal Krepon in the above

It.is.evident.that.Pakistan.loses.far.more.than.India.as.a.result.of.mass-casualty.attacks.on. Indian.soil.that.can.be.traced.back.to.groups.that.are.not.greatly.inconvenienced.by.Pakistan’s. security.apparatus..After.each.crisis,.India.rebounds.and.India’s.economy.resumes.its.high. growth.rate..Pakistan.does.not.rebound.after.mass casualty.attacks..Its.economy.becomes. increasingly.burdened.and.its.domestic.political.environment.deteriorates..After.each.crisis. sparked. by. a. mass-casualty. attack. on. Indian. soil. linked. to. Pakistani. nationals,. US-India. relations.improve,.including.bilateral.military.relations,.while.US-Pakistan.ties.deteriorate.. For. these. reasons,. New. Delhi. may. not. feel. compelled. to. punish. Pakistan. in. response. to. mass-casualty.attacks.unless.domestic.factors.override.this.calculus.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2011 21:26

India is trying to become "free" as the USA. In the USA freedoms means all sorts of freedoms including the freedom to dress as you like. There are no serious dress restrictions in India except in the armed forces, elite clubs and educational institutions.

Indian Muslims do have ummah sympathies but that cannot be taken to mean they are traitors. But there is a general consciousness among Muslims all over about the fact that the violence that is blamed on Muslims is being used to target Muslims by claiming that Islamic dress means radicalization. This is a uniquely idiotic western construct here long beard and Islamic dress = Taliban, and shaved Paki general = moderate and secular. France is at the forefront of this stupidity but the US is not far behind.

The dress freedom that is allowed in India is so amazing that most Indians do not even notice. But we sit up and worry when we see Muslims wearing an Islamic dress. We may want Muslims to dress like someone else, but the someone else is allowed to wear anything he wants. But Indian laws do not restrict Muslims and for that many Muslims are grateful. They know damn well that they are not singled out and targeted in India for wearing Islamic clothes. For the same reason many Muslims are not particularly hung up about it.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Sep 2011 22:39

shiv wrote: More seriously. Some expressions that cause a red flag to be raised on BRF include words like "Islamic influence" ans "syncretic culture". As far as I can tell a large majority of objections revolve around the alleged mixing of an ostensibly egregious dry desert "Islamic culture" with a rich Indian tradition. This is denied as nonsense - as a figment of the imagination of names like Sagarka someone, WKKs and assorted traitors who do not represnt the true India, Indian, dharmic culture.

But as I see it the "syncretism" had very little to do with religion and everything to do with governance and communication.I had listed some legal terms in a earlier post that are deeply enmeshed in our legal traditions like khata and waqalat nama. I suspect that words like tehsil, tehsildar, vakil and taluk are all words that have come down to us from a legal system that was not religion, but implemented by Islamic rulers. I would be happy to be corrected. Naipaul has a very nice reference in one of his books of the black robes of judges and professors in Britain, a tradition later exporte to India. In fact it is derived from Islamic jurisprudence and based on the robes of the ulema. The ulema as far as I can tell means "learned ones". They served both as "professors" and as "judges" in ancient Persia (I think), That is how both judges and professors ended up wearing long flowing robes of black. Is this "syncretism"? Well you can take the call. But it cerainly has "Islamic origins". Not Mahomet. Not Mecca. But all the above things are embedded in Indiia as evidence of Islamic influence. Denying such influence is silly. Trying to remove such influence is probably equally silly.

I am no classical dance connoisseur. Classical dunce maybe. But Kathak is an ancient Indian dance form that was deeply influenced by dancers being brought into Mughal courts. The Sitar is an ancient Indian instrument that existed long before Mahomet. But the name, I am told is Persian.

Pakibenchods are completely and Jinnahcally mad to try and remove all the influence India has on them. Heck even their friggin discarded foreskins are Indian origin. It would be a travesty if we tied to go back on Indian history and try and split the Islamic from the pre islamic and make a fake connection between our beautiful music and dance and civilization and Islam and say "heck we need to weed out this crap" or even deny that influences exist. Frankly I bet at least some us us will have the gene markers that Gengis Khan left behind. How do we remove that? I think it is ignorant to deny that the coming of Islam and the cross pollination of culture did not occur or needs to be removed. I think a lot of people actully fall for the mocking tone used by Pakis in "We ruled you" and then end up in a mental mess and try to remove everything of "islamic origin" to prove that "No we wern't rule". We have an inferiority complex problem if we try that. Just like Pakis are trying desperately to weed out India.

First let's talk about Mahomet and Mecca. Once we have put those items in their proper place, then we can deconstruct the syncretic-culture-wallahs and other things. Deal?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 17 Sep 2011 22:57

chetak wrote:jai ho.

Gobbling up whatever it can, however it can, begging bowl intact, jinnah's moth eaten child.

Pakistan to end IMF programme

the finance minister told journalists that Pakistan would not waste its energy on revival of the incomplete programme or seek a fresh programme owing to a comfortable external balance of payments position.

The repayment of the first tranche of the IMF program is due in the next few months. Earlier, Pakis had argued that the last tranche that the IMF did not release (because the Pakis did not meet IMF benchmarks) should be considered as Pakistan's repayment of the first tranche

(imagine I promise to give you 100Rs as tranches of 25Rs each. I refuse to give you the last 25 Rs and you come back and say that the 25Rs I refused to give you is the repayment of the first tranche of 25Rs I gave you--also known as Sialkot Statistics and Beshawar Bookkeeping

)

Pakis had also unsuccessfully argued that the last tranche could be stopped but IMF should have a fresh programme under which Pakis would meet the targets of the previous program. They also appealed to the US to use its "good offices" to get the second IMF program. Made trips to China about this.

Now if the Pakis didnt need the money anyway, why all this

over the money?

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 18 Sep 2011 01:27

Anujan wrote: ...
The repayment of the first tranche of the IMF program is due in the next few months. Earlier, Pakis had argued that the last tranche that the IMF did not release (because the Pakis did not meet IMF benchmarks) should be considered as Pakistan's repayment of the first tranche (imagine I promise to give you 100Rs as tranches of 25Rs each. I refuse to give you the last 25 Rs and you come back and say that the 25Rs I refused to give you is the repayment of the first tranche of 25Rs I gave you--also known as Sialkot Statistics and Beshawar Bookkeeping )

Pakis had also unsuccessfully argued that the last tranche could be stopped but IMF should have a fresh programme under which Pakis would meet the targets of the previous program. They also appealed to the US to use its "good offices" to get the second IMF program. Made trips to China about this.

Now if the Pakis didnt need the money anyway, why all this over the money?

May be the figures for their current foreign reserves are made up (like the Greeks were doing before they were caught)!

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 18 Sep 2011 01:33

rehman malik hittin another sixer

Pakistan may block Google, Youtube to deny terrorists communication source

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Interior Minister Rehman Malik has said that if Google and Youtube do not help the Pakistan government, then Pakistan reserves the right to block these services to prevent terrorists from using it.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 18 Sep 2011 01:55

Pakis have made religion an issue. Indeed, pakis insist that religion IS the issue, only issue, issue more than, above all issues. Ergo, that is their Achilles heel, their weekest point, soft under belly, etc. That should make it target #1 for India. Rudra Guru is right. Pakis are terrified of Indian polytheism taking Mohammad. Swallowing him whole. One paki said it best: "to us, you are the Borg. you take entire religions and swallow them up. Look at what happened to Buddhism". To the extent Hinduism follows this, it is a legitimate part of discussions on dealing with paki terrorism. Having a seperate thread is good, but the essential part of comabating paki terror has to include attacking "their" religion - "paki religion"- obviously something quite distinct in and of itself. All one has to do is to make a cursory comparison - pakis with arabs, pakis with indonesians, etc. So, like the little boy that cried wolf, by all means, let us have the pakis screem "islam is in danger" over and over again. In the meantime, PUT islam in danger, by all means, let us be the "Borg". As for being an Avatar, Mohammad fits into being one of Shiva - rudra than of Vishnu. Would be a first for Shiva, btw.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Sep 2011 02:15

they can accept allah as one of the many rupas. Howeve difficult to take on Mohammed without some re-engineering.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Sep 2011 02:19

HH. Z.H has already accepted Indian designation of Mahishasur Avatar for his Isht.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Sep 2011 02:31

parsuram wrote:As for being an Avatar, Mohammad fits into being one of Shiva - rudra than of Vishnu. Would be a first for Shiva, btw.

Oh no! If that was a pointer to my post, I never spoke of Mohammed being some sort of Avatar. He is merely a prophet. He can be a prophet of Shiva, or Vishnu or whatever, but he remains only a prophet. That is the way Muslims like it. There is no need to make him more exalted than that.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 18 Sep 2011 02:49

*****Sniff Sniff******

Lots of smoke in this room saars

I must say I'm a bit disappointed by what some of my Idols on this forum have come up with