The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

member_21708 · Post by **member_21708** » 28 Dec 2011 18:37

http://serious--fun.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ll-in.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Dec 2011 19:34

Murugan wrote:Turnout at MMRDA is low because of:

1) They planned fasts on working days (to coincide with bills discussion/passage in Loksabha, which is little ambitious on IAC's part)
2) Holiday season. Staff at the offices at 50%. Willing people cannot get leave.
3) MMRDA is not easily accessible for everyone compared to Azad Maidan etc

Do not forget Bandra Juhu rally held recently, the rally was stretching from Bandra to Santacruz. It was Sunday. People joined in large number even it was raining heavily. Most of the people who joined that rally were educated and committed type and not jingoes.

Then why the haste to start something? Why can't they wait until new year? To me I am convinced that the entire Anna movement is a bakwas movement to give opportunity to:
(1) Fashionable IT Vty types to participate in so called second Indian independence movement
(2) Entire political class to show off their manipulative skills via couple of parliament sessions that ran through the midnight in India and help themselves to sabotage and escape from the unprecedented corruption that is perpetrated by them

Anna's movement will die down slowly. The Government will just start intimidating the followers by creating some fear like job loss or even some low level stuff.

I am more than convinced India does not need Lokpal or any other such crap. If some one is genuine in solving India's problems including corruption, they would have tried for more computerization and less government. Not for more institutions such as these jokepals. Everyone wants either more control or shifting control from the current set to a new set. Anna and his jokers are just trying a shift of control.

It is visible to everyone why the political setup tries to divide people rather than being inclusive. It is the westminister system and the mindless multiparty electoral sytem. In UP election, the entire strategy of every political party is not to get 50% of the votes polled but how to win the election with 20 to 30% of votes polled. The strategy includes Muslim reservations or attending Brahmin sammelans. There is not a single party that is even trying to get a broad sections of population and in fact they will fail even if they try. The entire population is tuned and trapped into the whrilpool. It is disgusting to analyze the UP election scenarios. It is always about Brahmins, Thakurs, dalits, OBCs, Muslims, Lodhs, Yadavs and Kurmis. It is always about who will vote to whom this time. The entire Indian intellectual and educated classes know the problem at hand but does not want a systemic change so that "divide people
strategy" doesn't work.

What is badly needed is to fix the system so that there is no use to divide people. There should be no winner of election until someone gets 50% of the votes polled. Fixing the exisiting democracy and strengthening it what is needed and not satyagrahas to create jokepals. Instead these jokepals comes out with more complicated, extremely fashonable and useless stuff like (1) Right to recall (2) Right to reject.

Infact for every car/scooter loan, job interview it should be made mandatory to show proof that the junkies/yahoos voted in their previous council, assembly and general election.

Reforms for strenthening the democracy, governance and economy are badly and immediately needed. First of all this "Anna & yahoos" movement took away the focus away from the massive corruption by the central ministers (2G, CWG etc.) and then they took away the focus from importance of reforms to this new junk non-democratic body. The political setup did it in suc a way Lokpal looks more hillarious.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 Dec 2011 19:45

Muppalla wrote:

Reforms for strenthening the democracy, governance and economy are badly and immediately needed. First of all this "Anna & yahoos" movement took away the focus away from the massive corruption by the central ministers (2G, CWG etc.) and then they took away the focus from importance of reforms to this new junk non-democratic body. The political setup did it in suc a way Lokpal looks more hillarious.

Agree with you Muppalla Garu.
Anna movement , indeed , did a irreparable damage by taking the focus way from series of scams ( some of which are yet to unfold) which was making INC uncomfortable and hot in the saddle. So INC unleashed Anna movement to deflect debate to silly issues and give us a dead as dodo Lokpal.

somaz · Post by **somaz** » 28 Dec 2011 21:25

chaanakya wrote:
Agree with you Muppalla Garu.
Anna movement , indeed , did a irreparable damage by taking the focus way from series of scams ( some of which are yet to unfold) ... give us a dead as dodo Lokpal.

I beg to disagree, after living through so many scams , the public memory is very short unless the crime is translated to a specific objective. Although it disappears from the headlines, the emotional residue of the movement translates more tangibly at the electoral scene. Bofors for example did not move beyond the scam and hence in 10 years it was no longer a issue. With JLP , corruption being synonymous with congress is now sinking in. Been monitoring the desperation with the Congress-wadi on the web, it is exactly how they cried and shouted (in pre-internet era) for Rajiv .

I think for what it was worth the frustration took a more tangible form, we cannot expect everyday to be like Jan 1st, but by Oct at least you remember where you were on Jan 1st

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Dec 2011 21:48

My humble thoughts

The 2G scam, its roots and follow-on actions show how the 2G group mastered the game of current constitutional, political, judiciary and media structures.

The AH movement shows how difficult it is to solve a pervasive issue like corruption within the existing constitutional, political, judicial and media problem.

UPAII is showing how difficult they (or anyone) can make it for the change to come organically. Even if NDA is in power, no one can guarantee the smooth sailing of a bill of JLP proportions, given the disparage political views on such issues. UPA can play the same game to NDA tomorrow.

The only way of salvation for AH is to campaign against INC/UPA in the upcoming elections and face the resulting brick bats. That doesn't mean he has to support NDA or start a political party.

Can AH do it? Well he said he can and took public support for that. Now his team needs to live up to their words.

Added Later: If the organizers of Kudankulam can mobilize thousands of protesters for months together, AH movement should be able to put together a 1-2 Lakh protesters across the nation to bring this to public notice. Imagine they organize
- City by City Nagara Samkeertanas with 10-20,000 people walking 10-20 KM stretches (Marathon walks for corruption free India). If needed, organize them every week and the AH team walks every week.
- State by state Jana Sammelans - Small teams start their walk from their districts to a major gathering in the state capital (20-30 day focus) - 1 state per month.
- Culminating to a national jana sammelan in Indraprastha.

This should be a 2 yr project leading up to 2014.

Let the most nationalist party win the elections.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 28 Dec 2011 22:07

Positive spins of Anna movement:

People have again started remembering Bhagat singh, Sukhdev and Rajguru.

Anna cites Swami vivekanand at almost every opportunity

People of india divided by Congi, BJP and likes of SS and MNS have started coming together for a cause irrespective of their various affiliations.

Negative:

Anna, especially his team members should show some spine and consistency.

But i still admire them because they are not just armchair strategists like some of ... They do something to bring positive change. They may make mistakes, they may err on something but they are really doing something to bring people together.

After a long time a man from Maharashtra, who is respected all over India, has come up on national level beyond petty small level politicians , (who call themselves saviour of hindus, but beat a hapless non son-of-the soil hindu first, and later complain that nobody votes for them for change)

***

By the way, more people are turning up today at MMRDA ground compared to yesterday.

Ramlila is not going to gather more people because of biting cold in Delhi. Ambitious Anna team members who have successfully used Ramdev's resources have failed in this count. Heard they are again seeking Ramdev's support, BR has more resources and disciplined force beyond anyone's imagination.

***

Anna also shook DIE types, India haters, who were always complaining about inadequacies in system and administration. Such people joined anna's movement. Many of you may not be aware, but many of such people regularly meet and hold demonstrations, conduct contact campaigns, visit common people almost every week to bring about the awareness. This i believe, is personal achievement of Anna. Had anna held on to his association with BR and Indic symbols things would have been far better. His team members probably did not advise him to do so. Looking at them i feel that these guys still need lot of exposure and have a firm stand - not swayed away by shrewd forces.

Suddenly, image of Maulana Abdul Azad has taken centre place on the collage of pictures at IAC dias with Swami Vivekanand!! Bharat mata image has disappeared. Vande Mataram!

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 28 Dec 2011 22:34

Murugan wrote:Turnout at MMRDA is low because of:

1) They planned fasts on working days (to coincide with bills discussion/passage in Loksabha, which is little ambitious on IAC's part)
2) Holiday season. Staff at the offices at 50%. Willing people cannot get leave.
3) MMRDA is not easily accessible for everyone compared to Azad Maidan etc

Do not forget Bandra Juhu rally held recently, the rally was stretching from Bandra to Santacruz. It was Sunday. People joined in large number even it was raining heavily. Most of the people who joined that rally were educated and committed type and not jingoes.

I Agree wil the Murugan.
I was able to attend the Bandra-Juhu circle Rally, because it was a Sunday. Any other day, i would not have been able to do it.
And most of the Guys have plans already made for the Xmas week.

I think the fast/agitation should have been planned after the new year, depending on the Debate in Parliament.
This is a Big disappointment.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 28 Dec 2011 22:56

Agree with soniaG. Prove it in the elections. Conduct all the circuses one wants to, but the real mccoy is in the elections.

The conscience of the nation has been sleeping even when RajBala was brutally murdered. Such instance of maltreatment of naari has set the bharatvarsha on a cleansing process of not just who perpetrated but also of who kept silent - examples include renuka,sita and drupadi. But currently the fashion is burning a candle light for everything, led by an leader of a different era and generation.

soniaG has clearly seen the sleeping nation and is playing to her strengths. If mumbai elections are a pointer, then soniaG and her coterie have better understanding of bharatvarsha than candle ~~kissers~~ lighters.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 28 Dec 2011 23:03

And Sonyaben, being in power, and rated as powerful person by many chamcha media, could not fulfill his son's game changer dream - giving lokpal a constitutional status.

Real mccoy is not in election (only) but in the ability and acceptability of opposition too.

E.g., BT wanted to win civic elections, but, beating hapless other indians and bad mouthing people around could not create a viable option. A party which had more than 50 mps once upon a time is losing all it had gained.

Congress by failing to provide alternative indulged in divisive politics after rajiv gandhi's death. There are stabler and abler alternative to mms (or LKA) in congress. but this party, divided, cannot prop them up - because all the calculations are on vote bank and divisions. chamchas propped up dienasty to survive. Still if parties contesting against congress do not provide better alternatives, congress will be there again. It is also not bad but when will congress understand that dynasty politics may be good for providing a glue but People will see good time in india only when there will be an elected prime minister from common populace -like LBS, Morarji Desai, Narsimha Rao or ABV. Dienasty le dubegi.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Dec 2011 23:51

JwalaMukhi wrote:soniaG has clearly seen the sleeping nation and is playing to her strengths. If mumbai elections are a pointer, then soniaG and her coterie have better understanding of bharatvarsha than candle ~~kissers~~ lighters.

Absolutely. It is not just a nation that is sleeping. Cynicism and double standards are at its peak. On any negative parameter even Shiv Sena is better than congress party. Division of people on caste, region, sub-region and religion - take a scale of 1 to 10 and start rating them using true actions and not the rhetoric - I bet congress will beat out Shiv Sena, MNS, TRS , Akalis or even on some parameters JKLF may look better than INC.

Murugan wrote: Real mccoy is not in election (only) but in the ability and acceptability of opposition too.

E.g., BT wanted to win civic elections, but, beating hapless other indians and bad mouthing people around could not create a viable option. A party which had more than 50 mps once upon a time is losing all it had gained.

Even during JP movement or VP Singh timelines there are no big stalwarts in the non-Congress or opposition of that times. The generations of that time just thought it is not important to whom they are voting and they voted out the wrong doers. The wrong doers of that time were in fact not as bad as we see today.

In the current scenarios, the people or ready for fashion shows like the one being conducted by Anna Hazare but when it comes to the responsibility of voting out the wrong doers, cynicism and double standards start immediately. They slap Pawar and their own Anna criticizes Pawar but in Council elections Pawar the maverick wins.

Except for glimpses of JP movement and Mandal/Ramjanam bhoomi movements, the opposition is always weaker in India but still population chose them.

somaz · Post by **somaz** » 28 Dec 2011 23:54

Murugan wrote:... People will see good time in india only when there will be an elected prime minister from common populace -like LBS, Morarji Desai, Narsimha Rao or ABV. Dienasty le dubegi.

Very True but then need to complete the sentence with IK Gujral, Deve Gowda & MMS

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Dec 2011 23:57

Murugan wrote:... People will see good time in india only when there will be an elected prime minister from common populace -like LBS, Morarji Desai, Narsimha Rao or ABV. Dienasty le dubegi.

Per some faithful sages

1. One can call something truly democratic only when the minority rules the majority - Die-nasty is a minority. So it must rule majority Hindus.
2. Indian Constipation is the new revealed truth - So if Constipation allows something then that is the truth and only the truth
3. If you have a problem with current constipation or demonocracy - Then you too become a demon and contest in elections

My faith is personal onlee but my BS is public.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 29 Dec 2011 01:00

RamaY wrote: 2. Indian Constipation is the new revealed truth - So if Constipation allows something then that is the truth and only the truth

Absolutely. There was a mechanism of treating such maladies of constipation every 12 years in Nymisharanya. But that has been largely discarded, because now attempts are made so that the Constipation is frozen in time, with only token remedies which are provided more to enhance the frozen values.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Dec 2011 01:00

How come a billion nation don't want to fast while only let 74 year old anna do it? sick!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 29 Dec 2011 01:04

SaiK wrote:How come a billion nation don't want to fast while only let 74 year old anna do it? sick!

Because fasting strategy is not well thought out one. It is really an abberation process in the Indian narrative. It is deeply violent to self and should be abhorred.
Helps to remember " one who eats too much nor one who starves... will not find the ultimate truth".
Fasting technique is right up there with AH strategy of how to get rid of some one from drinking problem - tie'em up to a tree and flog.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 29 Dec 2011 01:21

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=745759

President Pratibha Patil today gave her approval for tabling of the Lokpal Bill in the Rajya Sabha.

Rashtrapati Bhawan spokesperson said the President gave her approval from Hyderabad where she is on a ten-day visit.

The President's approval was required for the measure since the Lok Sabha made some amendments to The Lokpal and Lokayukta Bill, 2011 before its passage.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 29 Dec 2011 01:25

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=745836

The BJP today hit back at UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and Rahul for blaming opposition for the fall of Constitution Amendment Bill in Lok Sabha, saying it was not their responsibility to fulfill "his dream" to give constitutional status to Lokpal.

Indicating that it will move amendments and oppose the Lokpal Bill when it comes to the Rajya Sabha tomorrow, BJP said Congress should first get its own house in order and get its allies on board before taking on the opposition.

At a press conference here, Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj said UPA government's claim of commanding a majority in the House was exposed yesterday when the bill on giving constitutional status to the Lokpal was put to vote.

Not only did the government fail to get the required two-thirds majority but the division of votes showed it was well below the half way mark.

"But Congress has been trying to lay all the blame for failure to pass the constitutional status bill on the BJP. Now even Sonia Gandhi is singing their tune. We have said our commitment is to a strong Lokpal but we cannot support what is patently unconstitutional," Swaraj said.

She insisted that even when the Opposition pointed out that passing the provision for appointment of Lokayuktas in states under Article 253 violated the federal principal and it should be passed under Article 252, the government did not agree. This forced the BJP to oppose it.

On giving Constitutional status to the Lokpal, Swaraj said, "If this was their general secretary Rahul Gandhi's dream, is fulfilling it the responsibility of the BJP? Should Congress not have got the numbers? It could not even muster a simple majority of 273."

Leader of Opposition in Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley echoed Swaraj's sentiments on alleged breach of federal structure in the Bill, insisting that Parliament cannot pass a legislation knowing it is against the Constitution.

"It is an obligation of Parliament not to enact imperfect or unconstitutional legislation. We will raise this issue in the Rajya Sabha as well," Jaitley said.
The BJP is vociferously raising the issue, especially with Congress ally Trinamool Congress stating it would move amendments on the Lokayukta provision as it feels is against the federal structure.

Jaitley said if the Bill is passed in its present form West Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee will have to accept that her chief secretary will be accountable and answerable to the Centre. "This Bill completely demolishes the federal structure," he said, adding that such provisions were "non-negotiable".

BJP is likely to move amendments to press for establishing Lokayukta under Article 252, change in the provisions of appointment and removal of Lokpal, to free CBI of government control, among other issues.

"Giving constitutional status to a Lokpal is of no use if Lokpal is a weak law... People are watching the government. All of us political parties are on trial on what laws we are making.... Parties will be watched if they are willing to proclaim but unwilling to strike," Jaitley said.

Swaraj said the manner in which government was trying to give Lokpal Bill a constitutional status would only make it "ornamental".

BJP leader Venkaiah Naidu claimed that Lokpal Bill will not be passed by the Rajya Sabha as Congress does not have the numbers.

"We are confident that the ruling party does not have enough numbers in Rajya Sabha. It (Lokpal Bill) should fall in the Upper House," Naidu told reporters.

Swaraj took jibes at the government, saying its floor management during the Lokpal debate was so poor that its allies spoke against the Bill while supporting parties like SP, BSP and RJD staged a walkout.

"Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee kept insisting that the whole game is of 273. The day you have 273 votes you can rule. At the end of the day they could not prove they have 273," Swaraj said.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Dec 2011 01:47

The bill may probably be passed in RS. If the bill is not passed then there is something either sinster in INC to allow it to fail and use it for blaming the BJP or INC lost the will to rule the nation. We will know it if TMC votes for the bill or votes against the bill. They absconding (abstaining) like SP and BSP will not help.

TMC hurdle for bill today

The government could not introduce the Lokpal and Lokayukta Bill in the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday despite President Pratibha Patil giving her required consent, and it will now be laid before the Upper House on Thursday. The bill was passed by the Lok Sabha on Tuesday with amendments.

The government, which faced a numbers crunch in the Lok Sabha on Tuesday, when the Constitution Amendment Bill was defeated, apparently wanted more time to put its house in order before facing the Rajya Sabha.

Not only are supporting parties like the BSP, Samajwadi Party and RJD opposing the bill, even a key UPA partner, Trinamul Congress, intensified its opposition to the bill on Wednesday, and said it planned to bring an amendment relating to the Lokayukta provision.
The government does not have even a simple majority in the Rajya Sabha. Finance minister Pranab Mukherjee held hectic parleys throughout the day, meeting Leader of the Opposition Arun Jaitley in a bid to seek the BJP’s support for the measure. He also held discussions with Trinamul leaders to allay their fears about the Lokayukta provision in the bill, impressing upon them that the government had already amended the original provision by incorporating a clause mandating the consent of state governments before notifying it. Mr Mukherjee is expected to speak to Trinamul supremo Mamata Banerjee too. Trinamul MP Derek O’Brien has, however, already served a notice for an amendment to the bill.

In a House of 243, the government has the support of 109 members (including Trinamul MPs), but there are 111 members opposing the bill. Thus the bill’s fate in the Rajya Sabha hinges entirely on the role of 27 MPs belonging to parties supporting the UPA from outside, which oppose the legislation. In the Lok Sabha they staged a walkout, which led to the defeat of the Constitution Amendment Bill.

If they repeat the walkout, the total numbers and the majority required will also come down. But the government is banking on their numbers. A simple majority will then require only 108 votes, and the bill may scrape through. A lot, however, depends on which way the Trinamul Congress goes.

Congress president Sonia Gandhi Wednesday blamed the BJP for the defeat of the Constitution Amendment Bill, saying this “exposed” its “real face”. Mrs Gandhi said the BJP had committed itself to supporting a constitutional status for the Lokpal in the standing committee. “But yesterday, we saw their real face. The strength we wanted to give to the Lokpal Bill... they did not want,” she told reporters.

Opposition leaders said it wasn’t their responsibility. Sushma Swaraj said: “The amendment was defeated ... as the government failed to muster the support of half the members of the House.”

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 29 Dec 2011 02:20

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 285052.cms

Parliament is supreme - Democracy at work (India Style) (The government and it's slogans

)

Anna Hazare's fast ended with a whimper on Wednesday, but the government's Lokpal worries are far from over. After several bouts of anxiety and hectic backroom negotiations, it is hoping to secure the passage of the Lokpal Bill in the Rajya Sabha today. But several things will first have to go to plan.

The BSP, SP and RJD will have to walk out - as they did from the Lok Sabha on Tuesday. And the UPA will have to keep its flock together. It will be hoping there are no nasty surprises from the Trinamool Congress.

Although Prime Minister Manmohan Singh expressed hope that the Rajya Sabha would clear the bill on Thursday, Congress managers were keeping their fingers crossed as crucial negotiations with SP, BSP and Trinamool continued till late evening.

The government had to put off its plan to start the debate on the bill in the RS on Wednesday after Trinamool threatened to oppose it as long as it contained a provision that allows the Centre to set up Lokayuktas in states. Trinamool had protested against the clause in the Lok Sabha on Tuesday but relented after the government amended the legislation that the application of the Lokayukta clause would be contingent upon "prior consent"of states.

The ally, which has been causing some anxiety to the government, revived its opposition on Wednesday after party boss and West Bengal chief minister Mamata Banerjee said the amendment did not address her concern. With the Trinamool side making it clear that they would move an amendment, the government hastily deferred its plan to start the debate in the Rajya Sabha.

Trinamool MP Derek O'Brien went ahead and submitted the amendment seeking the deletion of the Lokayukta clause at 3.30pm, forcing finance minister Pranab Mukherjee to go into a huddle with Trinamool's leaders in the two Houses, Mukul Roy and Sudeep Bandhopadhyaya.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 29 Dec 2011 03:12

Why are the people making a big deal of whether Anna Hazare was a deserter or not? How is that even relevant? Is there a law or rule somewhere that says that a person who is a deserter cannot take a stand against what is wrong or corruption in society? More to the point, what is this insistence that any person who stands against corruption must be blameless and of spotless character? There are no such leaders these days, all of us have uncomfortable facts that they would rather not have public. So why this unreasonable expectation from someone? How many of us have the guts to do what Anna does? How many of us are willing to withstand the witch hunt and scrutiny that the GoI has unleashed on Kejriwal? Anna et al's methods may be open to debate, but what is not open to debate is his right to protest.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Dec 2011 05:49

If he is a deserter then what they are doing not procecuting?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 29 Dec 2011 05:59

"Anna was a deserter", "Kejriwal is corrupt", "Bedi took bribes".. these are all distractions pushed forward by Congress and other corrupt politicians to avoid having to talk about the Lokpal.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Dec 2011 06:15

Can someone plese enlighten us of what all this means.
1 Will the Congress bill have any effect.
2 Did the BJP sabotage work against or for corruption.

somaz · Post by **somaz** » 29 Dec 2011 07:01

Narayana Rao wrote:If he is a deserter then what they are doing not procecuting?

This is a closed matter RTI on this subject & Army have confirmed it was a honorable discharge after 12 years.

niran · Post by **niran** » 29 Dec 2011 07:05

RamaY wrote: - State by state Jana Sammelans - Small teams start their walk from their districts to a major gathering in the state capital (20-30 day focus) - 1 state per month.
- Culminating to a national jana sammelan in Indraprastha.

This should be a 2 yr project leading up to 2014.

Let the most nationalist party win the elections.

all these need real mooney saar, in truck loads not in bag loads, AH and IAC neither are
retired fatcat politicians nor fatcats bizzniss owners, and with a sudden keen interest displayed
by income tax babu enforcment directorate babu as soon as you donate a dollah is disconcerting
to say it in most simple terms.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 29 Dec 2011 09:01

Murugan wrote:Had anna held on to his association with BR and Indic symbols things would have been far better.

Anna and Ramdev Baba can campaign, but both of them refuse to face the issue of the opacity of the election process. Let's see how it plays out.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 29 Dec 2011 09:03

Rishirishi wrote:Can someone plese enlighten us of what all this means.
1 Will the Congress bill have any effect.
2 Did the BJP sabotage work against or for corruption.

kangress bill has the effect of reassuring the Babus that they will not be punished for corruption. This is important because it is the class C and D people who are the collection agents for funds that make their way to the Mainos and the Pawars.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Dec 2011 10:06

somaz wrote:
Murugan wrote:... People will see good time in india only when there will be an elected prime minister from common populace -like LBS, Morarji Desai, Narsimha Rao or ABV. Dienasty le dubegi.

Very True but then need to complete the sentence with IK Gujral, Deve Gowda & MMS

OK

MMS is appointed. He is Not an elected one. He is a Selected one (to show that con party is trying to wash some sins of 1984)

Gujral was capable and experienced. Congress was supporting from outside. could not perform better.

Deve Gowda was a seasoned politician. He did not get much time to prove himself.

We can also add V P Singh and Chandrashekhar.

But in congress None of the non-dynasty guys could rise as simple as that. With Exception of PVNR. Nobody is allowed to rise beyond certail limit in dynasty politics. Once popularity increases wings are clipped.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Dec 2011 10:24

People fast for a cause.

Remember call given by LBS to give up food for a day every week for a purpose (google it out). Many people from his time are still fasting every monday.

Gandhiji used fast first time in South Africa

According to Bhikhu Parekh, in his book in the Past Masters series, Gandhi’s reasons for fasting were essentially fourfold:

it was his way of expressing his own deep sense of sorrow at the way those he loved had disappointed him

it was his way, as their Leader, for atoning for their misdeeds

it was his last attempt to stir deep spiritual feelings in others and to appeal to their moral sense

it was his way of bringing the quarreling parties together.

Gandhi also placed limits on when fasting was appropriate;

Fasts could only be undertaken against those people he loved

Fasts must have a concrete and specific goal, not abstract aims

The fast must be morally defensible in the eyes of the target

The fast must in no way serve his own interests

The fast must not ask people to do something they were incapable of, or to cause great hardship.

Gandhi followed these principles on every fast. During his lifetime, he fasted 17 times.

But Gandhiji fasted against little better people.

Now modi is fasting every month as part of his sadbhavana campaign. Guj Con party members also hold counter fasts to generate little dur-bhavana against modi. Unknowingly guj con party is trapped in modi's "Khato nathi, khava deto nathi" (i dont eat (dont take bribe) and dont let others eat (dont allow others to take bribe)) strategy.

somaz · Post by **somaz** » 29 Dec 2011 10:36

Murugan wrote:People fast for a cause.

Remember call given by LBS to give up food for a day every week for a purpose (google it out). Many people from his time are still fasting every monday.

Wow .. all my uncles fast on Monday and they do not remember why they started that practice .. cannot wait for this "epiphany" conversation.

Valid point on other PMs, every one had their circumstantial limitations.

Laloo is still very confident he will be PM with outside Congress support , i celebrate his every slip down the ladder for him

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Dec 2011 10:46

AH hasn't realised yet that there really is no need for him to go on fasts any longer! He has proved his integrity and worth with the fast at Delhi.The strategy that the AH team should now adopt is to single out key policies.acts of the govt. which are promoting corruption,covering up corruption,and organise democratic rallies,gheraos,candlelight vigils,etc.,in typical Indian fashion ,to pressurise the corrupt regime.
AH is now a national anti-corruption icon.His very presence or visit to a city galvanises a positive response from the people.He needs to travel the land,while he can, and deliver his message.The rest as they say will be history.

Years ago while in Rajasthan, I witnessed in Jaisalmer a hugely attended mock funeral procession taken out of the then CM ,over some issue leading to govt. servant strikes,etc.A couple of days later,while having breakfast in my hotel,lo and behold,the same CM and his team trooped into the restaurant to have their bkfast and emergency discussions on stopping the strikes,etc! It showed that public protests do work.

As for the Lok Pal bill,it is as dead as the dodo,unless we see the sordid act again of massive amounts of money changing hands ,which is the hallmark of the MMS regime!

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Dec 2011 10:49

people coming from very humble back ground are doing better

Modi/Raman Singh/Shivraj Singh Chauhan/Nitish Kumar. Mamata di.

Maharashtra did better when CM came from such a background. e.g, yashwant rao chavan, vasant rao naik to name a few. The elite and appointed CMs are yet to prove.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2011 11:50

somaz wrote:
chaanakya wrote:
Agree with you Muppalla Garu.
Anna movement , indeed , did a irreparable damage by taking the focus way from series of scams ( some of which are yet to unfold) ... give us a dead as dodo Lokpal.
I beg to disagree, after living through so many scams , the public memory is very short unless the crime is translated to a specific objective. Although it disappears from the headlines, the emotional residue of the movement translates more tangibly at the electoral scene. Bofors for example did not move beyond the scam and hence in 10 years it was no longer a issue. With JLP , corruption being synonymous with congress is now sinking in. Been monitoring the desperation with the Congress-wadi on the web, it is exactly how they cried and shouted (in pre-internet era) for Rajiv .

I think for what it was worth the frustration took a more tangible form, we cannot expect everyday to be like Jan 1st, but by Oct at least you remember where you were on Jan 1st

Well, you have a right to disagree with what Muppalla Garu said.
However , if you remember , Emergency resulted in formation of alternative Govt and Bofors resulted in strengthening of Non Congress Movement and weakening of INC such that it depends on Coalition now. But if you notice the trend in public discourse , it has moved away from scams and we get a dodo as Lokpal. AH channelized public anger in a dissipative way resulting in doubt if INC would not again come back claiming moral victory.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Dec 2011 12:28

quote/
New Delhi:
Here are the highlights of what BJP's Arun Jaitley said during the Lokpal Bill debate in Rajya Sabha:

We don't want a weak and hollow law. We will oppose this with fervor. We are here today with the hope that the government's weak bill will be rejected by this House. But this House should also not leave today without delivering a strong law. So let us accept amendments suggested by other parties, if they make this law stronger. Let us show we can deliver an effective law. Parliament and politics both have great power and strength. We decide the laws of the country.

So what we pass today has to reflect whether our law collides with history, or makes history.

There is a sense of the House but there is also a sense of the nation. And the people are looking to us for a strong law. We are being tested - can we rise to the occasion?

Political funding in the world's biggest democracy- there are many doubts about this.

Legal architecture is strong. Our laws are strong. Investigative machinery and organizations are subject to government pressure. So the reforms needed are strong...can this be brought by a half-hearted legislation? And I regret to say this is a half-hearted legislation.

Who wants a weak law, and who wants a strong one will be judged by the public. And it will not forgive whoever lets it down. This is not a test for just government or you. This is a test of every section, every party here. Your (govt) allies - they are also being tested. Are they only willing to proclaim or are they willing to strike (for a tough law)?

Govt's politics was totally transparent. To create a smokescreen -that we are talking to civil society reps. You wanted to create a phony Lokpal and create a smokescreen that we are giving it constitutional status. You wanted to make it a toy and then say it's a constitutional authority. Country does not need this sort of Lokpal. This is what you described as a game-changer (dig at Rahul Gandhi). Game-changers are made with such phony institutions.

Ensure that you do not impede upon the rights of governments to form their own laws. Assure us that the autonomy of the states will be protected. Federalism and anti-corruption laws can co-exist.

Who will select the Lokpal - the government will have max clout. You have a long history of trying to control these institutions.

Three of the five people to select Lokpal will be chosen by the government. And who will remove the members of the Lokpal? As a citizen, I don't have the right to do this. I'll have to approach the government and then the government can approach the Supreme Court. So if Lokpal is biased in favour of government, the beneficiary of that bias will decide on the future of that Lokpal. You will appoint Lokpal and you will control the removal procedure. You are creating an institution where you control appointment and removal mechanism. Change this procedure immediately and we will support you.

In the work of the investigating agency (CBI), nobody can interfere - neither Lokpal nor government. Process of investigation is so complicated - somebody said on television it's like a "jalebi." Criminal investigations are not done by such a round-robin. Whoever created this mechanism is completely ignorant of how criminal investigations are done. Why are you creating an impossible mechanism? Even CBI says this is unworkable...Anna's colleagues say so...we are all saying it. But you have some sense of prestige that you want to create this mechanism because you have said so. This requires a serious change.
/quote

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Dec 2011 21:04

Very very powerful speech by Arun Jaitley.
Here is full speech of Arun jaitley

History has today provided us an opportunity to legislate a strong and effective legal mechanism for investigation and punishment of the corrupt. We can squander this opportunity by legislating a weak and phony mechanism and then create a smoke screen that we have performed our task. Alternatively, if we are sincere in our effort to combat corruption we owe it to our country to legislate effectively.

The present situation

Admittedly, we live in a society where people are losing faith in the integrity of governance. Political funding in the world’s largest democracy is not transparent. Discretions available to those in governance at various stages are being misused. Land, mining, liquor, municipalities, natural resources, revenue departments etc. are hotbeds of corruption.

Obviously, today’s mechanism to fight corruption is inadequate. The investigative mechanism can be influenced by the State. The legal processes are slow and time consuming. Fatigue sets in and the public revulsion against the corrupt is lost.

The silver lining appears to be a popular mood against corruption. There is both anger and revulsion in public. We, politicians and legislators, are being accused of wanting not to create an effective mechanism to fight corruption. The magnitude of corruption in certain recent transactions has aggravated public anger. The fact that the present government has been compelled to bring this half-hearted legislation is the first success of this anti-corruption mood. We are all going to be judged at the end of the day as to where we stand in this crusade against corruption. Do we support a phony and weak bill or do we want to ensure a strong and effective law against corruption. Not only the government, its allies and every political party in this House will be judged. Those who are willing to proclaim but unwilling to strike will be considered supporters of a phony and a weak bill.

Was the Constitution Amendment necessary ?

The Constitution amendment which was defeated in the Lok Sabha willl not give any special status to the Lok Pal or the Lok Ayukatas. It merely provided that there shall be a Lokpal at the Centre and the Lok Ayukatas in the States. An effective Lokpal can be possible through an ordinary legislation as through a Constitution amendment. A smoke screen was created by the Champions of the Constitutional Bill by claiming that they wanted to give constitutional status to the Lokpal. A mere status gives no power or authority. It is the Lokpal Bill which gives the power and authority. Giving a constitutional status and providing for a hollow and weak Lokpal was a fraud on power. Even without a constitution amendment, a simple law would be adequate. But this law was being enacted only to please somebody who had assumed a status without authority to the Lokpal would be a game changer.

It is no part of Parliament’s job to legislate a superfluous constitution amendment. In any case, the proposed Constitution amendment unless it clarified that it was the exercise of parliamentary jurisdiction under article 252, it would have amounted to usurpation of the State authority.

What are the Issues?

I rise to support the very idea of a strong Lokpal. I equally rise to oppose a weak and fragile Lokpal. How do I judge this law? I will elaborate three different criteria.

1) Content of the Bill
The appointment process (clause 4) is controlled by the Government of the day. Three out of 5 nominees of the government are on the selection panel . The criteria for being a member of the Search Committee is not specified. The removal process (clause 37) is again controlled by the government. If a citizen is aggrieved against the Lokpal, he can only petition through the government which will decide whether to move the Supreme Court or not. If the government finds a particular Lokpal to be inconvenient, it has the authority to suspend him. Why should it be the government instead of the Supreme Court which should have the power to suspend a Lokpal. Does the Government want a sword of Damocles’ to hang over the Lokpal so that should should he fall out of line, the government is entitled to suspend him. The staff of the Lokpal (section 10) will be appointed by a panel submitted by the government.

The procedure of inquiry and investigation.

The procedure of inquiry and investigation is absurd. The Lok Pal has no power to act suo moto. The Lokpal can act only on a complaint. When he receives a complaint he will first decide whether to proceed in a case and if it decides to proceed further, it can make a prima facie inquiry. He will then conduct a preliminary inquiry through its inquiry wing to decide whether there is a prima facie case or refer it to the CVC who will conduct a preliminary inquiry. In the case of category A & B officials, the CVC will refer the matter back to the Lokpal who will now take a view whether the matter should be referred to the CBI or any other agency or not. While referring the matter to the Lokpal he will hear the delinquent officer and disclose the line of investigation to him. When the CBI investigates the matter it will send the final report back to the Lokpal who will now become the prosecuting agency.

Nowhere in the world the prosecution and investigation come under different agencies. They maintain an arm’s length distance. The Directorate of Prosecution has to be professional but it does not have to go outside the CBI. It should not go outside the CBI. Additionally, the power given to the Lokpal to tinker with the CBI’s investigation is against all known canons of investigation.

The position of CBI
We believe that the appointment of the Director of CBI should be made by an independent procedure. The collegium which appoints him must also appoint the Director of Prosecution. No one should be allowed to interfere in the CBI investigation – neither the Government nor the Lokpal. It is a well settled principle of the criminal jurisprudence that it is the power of the investigating authority to decide as to how to investigate and whom to prosecute. Section 25 of the Bill needs to be amended where the power of administrative and financial control, superintendence and direction over the CBI should be given to the Lokpal.

Similar amendment should be made in the Delhi Special Police Establishment Act.

Non Government organizations
The power under clause 14(1(h) given to the Lokpal to investigate persons who are not public servants but are officials of societies, trusts and NGOs is improper. It is a revenge on civil society that such a provision is sought to be enacted.

Clause 55 of the Bill needs to be amended. It is no business of the Lokpal to start funding and providing legal aid to corrupt officials.
It is my case that the Lokpal will substantially be a government appointee through the collegium. The Government control over the Lokpal will intrude into private societies and Trusts. The CBI-Lokpal relationship needs to be well defined. Without autonomous and independent CBI the Lokpal will be a crippled institution. The present procedure of investigation which is like a round robin needs to be amended and corrected. The protection given to the Prime Minister to hold his inquiry in camera lacks appearance of justice.

2. The government has brought a constitutionally vulnerable Bill.
a. Lack of legislative confidence
The State Lok Ayukata has two functions to perform. – The power to prosecute for criminal offences and the power to hold departmental inquiries against State employees. The power of criminal prosecution is available in the Concurent List i.e. Entry,1, 2, 11A in List-III. However, the power of taking departmental action against civil servants of the State is a power exclusively in the State domain i.e. Entry 41 of List-II. The power to take departmental proceedings (Clause 81(3)(b) is exclusively in the State domain.

Article 253 of the Constitution provides for enforcing India’s international commitments. Why should the Government of India not prepare a model law and expect the States to follow it. Article 252 gives an adequate flexibility to the Parliament to make such a model law. There is no international commitment of India which deals with reservation on the basis of caste and religion in any international convention. If the Central government believes that it has power to make State Lok Ayukatas Act then the State powers will be eclipsed and all existing State Lok Ayukata Acts would be invalid. The provision of clause 64(5) would be redundant. If the Centre had the exclusive jurisdiction to frame such a law then transition to State law would not be required. Constitutionally the correct course would be to frame a law under Article 252 after obtaining resolution of two States.

On Reservation
Whereas I support the affirmative action which the Constitution provides for reservation, this Bill provides for reservation on the basis of religion which is outside the Constitution. Additionally, the words ‘ not less than’ provides for at least 50% of the Members of the Lokpal which in the present case would be five out of nine. It would exceed the 50% ceiling laid down by the Supreme Court. Why does the government want to kill the Lokpal even before it comes into existence.

Sense of the House
The sense of the House provided for a Citizen Charter and all civil servants to come under the Lokpal. Somehow, the government has proposed a separate legislation for Citizen Charter. We should be seen as honouring the sense of the House. The C and D category employees should be treated at par with A & B category employees. An additional facility can be given to the Lokpal to frame its own rules under which some of the functions can be delegated or some performed by the Lokpal or its delegatee.
Sir, Institution building is a challenging task. We are today attempting to create an integrity institution in India. Let us not subvert the institution even before it is formed. We need to create a powerful and independent Lokpal. Let us not create a subservient Lokpal. An effective Lokpal needs an independent CBI. We must not provide for a pliable and weak Lokpal. The Prime Minister has made it appear as though there is a conflict between fighting corruption and federalism. Both can coexist. We are in the process of creating history; if we create bad history, the generations to come will not pardon us. They will be compelled to correct the error into which we are falling.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Dec 2011 00:07

Sensing a real defeat, the government and RS chairman collided and adjorned the house without a vote. He adjorned sine die. The government ran away from parliament.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 30 Dec 2011 00:11

Just witnessed the end of the Rajya Sabha debate on the Lokpal Bill. A government and the Congress Party without a plan to proceed shows it's ugly face of non governance in the Rajya Sabha.

Parliament is Supreme - so the government and it's minions parrot!!

Who do these individuals represent???

A Congress Party and a government that hides behind prerogatives and procedures and choreographed filibustering need not remain at the helm of affairs, for the sake of the country.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 30 Dec 2011 00:18

Pranay wrote:Who do these individuals represent???

The game changer here could be that instead of facing next elections on issues such as corruption, black money, etc. the election could be declared based on reservations etc. in Lokapala, however unconstitutional the reservations could be. Perhaps knack of playing outside constitutional limits and to the gallery that is waiting for such reservations.

Just a random thought, though I do believe that life is stranger than fiction.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Dec 2011 00:22

One thing that amazed me is the adamant nature of Mamta Benerjee. Why is she wanted to be against government? What is her problem and this Lokpal is not going to affect her in the short term or long term. Something is not working between Mamta and Sonia. This is the first time UPA is really broke.

somaz · Post by **somaz** » 30 Dec 2011 02:04

Muppalla wrote:One thing that amazed me is the adamant nature of Mamta Benerjee. Why is she wanted to be against government? What is her problem and this Lokpal is not going to affect her in the short term or long term. Something is not working between Mamta and Sonia. This is the first time UPA is really broke.

There is clear discomfort within TMC that this bill provides a backdoor for the Sonia Coterie to blackmail and monitor through bureaucrats in Writers Building.

Also, is there is a palace intrigue between ahmed patel & Rahul that forced the failure in LS ? Any thoughts on why the Constitutional amendement vote was lost - UPA was very confident of making it through , took 10 minutes after the vote for the reality to sink into the treasury benches , so something went wrong.

With the series of drawbacks for Mamata , she needs to restore her image and this provided her a good opportunity