Indian Naval Discussion

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 20 Jul 2012 00:08

Sridhar.E wrote:Sometimes I wonder if this is an Indian discussion forum or US sorry to say this a$$licking forum??

Sridhar, you have been here for barely over a month, perhaps you should read more and post less for a while.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2012 14:22

the two indian P8I nose to nose under a blue sky...OEM grade psyops.....http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YQVL4ICHWPg/U ... 730661.jpg

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 20 Jul 2012 23:04

Tomorrow is Commissioning of INS Sahyadri.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 21 Jul 2012 12:20

AbhiJ wrote:Tomorrow is Commissioning of INS Sahyadri.

Livefist has posted photos of INS Sahyadri, anyone from BR attending the commissioning ceremony?

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/07/fir ... yadri.html

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 21 Jul 2012 13:04

has this been posted before?? apologies if yes..

Interview with Rear Admiral KN Vaidyanathan, Director General Naval Design

'The P-17 Frigates, heralds a paradigm shift in the design'

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 21 Jul 2012 18:39

Stealth frigate INS Sahyadri commissioned

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 21 Jul 2012 22:56

ABG has done a marvelous job with the pollution control vessels and delivery was real fast, they also pack in large tons at around 4500. Similarly, the offshore patrol vessels that Pipavav is building are supposed to be built within 3 years, and will most probably enter service from 2013 onwards. Since the Navy is the cornerstone for indigenization, maybe more orders for warships can be given to these private players as now they really have demonstrated their capabilities.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 22 Jul 2012 12:13

Credible Navy need of the hour: Antony | The Hindu

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 22 Jul 2012 13:02

Something for the Water Gurus:

Naval sources say that each aircraft carrier is protected by at least 7 warships. Given that the country plans to deploy three aircraft carriers by the end of this decade — the INS Vikramaditya and two indigenous carriers built by Cochin Shipyard — frigates like the Sahyadri are badly needed.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... vy/481064/

What would be the Components of an Indian CBG?

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 22 Jul 2012 14:34

Shivalik

Among the three first-generation stealth frigates, the Sahyadri has the minimum number (less than 50) ship liability defects, which will be corrected by the shipyard in the next one year. For Shivalik, the corresponding number was 140.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2012 15:05

AbhiJ wrote:Given that the country plans to deploy three aircraft carriers by the end of this decade — the INS Vikramaditya and two indigenous carriers built by Cochin Shipyard

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... vy/481064/

What does Ajai Shukla smokes , 3 carriers by end of decade ? By the end of this decade the IN should have 2 carrier , the decision to construct the 3rd one has yet to be taken and likely the navy would wait and see how the IAC develops before taking a decision on 2nd IAC or bigger one.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Jul 2012 18:26

Wasnt there a news report a week back about work having started on the second IAC?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 22 Jul 2012 22:12

There is a new picture of P-28 Kamorta on this forum

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... tes-4.html

Not sure if it was posted earlier. I hope it joins IN by end of 2012 along with a Kolkota

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jul 2012 09:49

AbhiJ wrote:Something for the Water Gurus:
Naval sources say that each aircraft carrier is protected by at least 7 warships. Given that the country plans to deploy three aircraft carriers by the end of this decade — the INS Vikramaditya and two indigenous carriers built by Cochin Shipyard — frigates like the Sahyadri are badly needed.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... vy/481064/

What would be the Components of an Indian CBG?

7 warships per aircraft carrier is not set in stone. In peacetime deployment, it is far less -- 1 DDG, 1 or 2 FFG, 0 or 1 or 2 Corvette, 1 or 0 SSKs, and 1 fleet tanker.

During wartime, CBG would be larger.

1 x Aircraft Carrier
1 to 2 x DDG
2 to 4 x FFG
1 to 2 x Corvette (ASW)
1 to 2 x SSK/SSN
1 x Fleet tanker

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 23 Jul 2012 10:39

Bheeshma wrote:There is a new picture of P-28 Kamorta on this forum

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... tes-4.html

Not sure if it was posted earlier. I hope it joins IN by end of 2012 along with a Kolkota

what is the plough like black thing in the boat in last pic?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Jul 2012 11:30

srai wrote:
7 warships per aircraft carrier is not set in stone. In peacetime deployment, it is far less -- 1 DDG, 1 or 2 FFG, 0 or 1 or 2 Corvette, 1 or 0 SSKs, and 1 fleet tanker.

During wartime, CBG would be larger.

1 x Aircraft Carrier

1 to 2 x DDG

2 to 4 x FFG

1 to 2 x Corvette (ASW)

1 to 2 x SSK/SSN

1 x Fleet tanker

Which CBG are you talking about? Certainly no Indian CBG will have that many assets. I would say 1 x AC, 1 x DDG, 1 x FFG, 1 x Fleet Tanker and maybe 2 x ASW Corvettes. Certainly no SSK as they can't keep up.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2012 12:24

its the anchor. its set far up on edge of bow to avoid dropping on the bulbous sonar dome below the base of the bow where it meets the water.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 23 Jul 2012 14:02

First touch-and-goes by MiG-29KUB over the weekend. First landing should be in couple of days.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 23 Jul 2012 15:56

There is no 'peacetime' in the Navy. When ships leave harbour, there are ready for war in a moment's notice unlike the army and the air force which require a degree of mobilisation. Warships always have their magazines full with live rounds.

An aircraft carrier is a capital asset, which will be accorded maximum protection at all times when at sea. Absolutely no chances will be taken even if the threat forecast says clear blue skies.

Whether we like it or not Uncle Sam sets the template for Carrier Battle Groups. It has never been tested by a credible opposing force but it is the template to follow, and in our threat scenario, we will go for a beefier version of the escort groups, which will not only have to weather a first blow but also have reserves for a second or possibly third strike. The Vikramaditya and its follow-ons, are infinitely more valuable assets than the carrier we have now or have operated in the past. In modern naval warfare, individual battleships or small formations have very little survival chances in blue waters. Thus they will be grouped together with the carrier to create a fighting fist.

A typical IN CBG operating in blue waters with no shore based support would possibly look like this:

Aircraft Carrier

2 x P-15A DDGs: These would be to exclusively protect the carrier and perform the role of the American Aegis cruisers.

1 x P-15 DDG + 1 x R-class DDG: These would be the force multipliers and reserve.

2 x P-17 FFG: These are very interesting ships, which will dual task in both anti-air and ASW

2 x Talwar-class: These would be tasked exclusively for ASW.

2 x Scorpenes: These would be the underwater guard dogs

1 x INS Chakra: This asset will be more forward deployed and not tethered to the carrier to clear the way.

1 x P-8I: One long-range P-8I will be dedicated to missions around the carrier at all times.

2 x fleet tanker: We have an oil burning carrier, so one tanker will exclusively support it. Plus a third tanker will be in reserve to replace a spent tanker.

Some of you might think this is too heavy, but there are some factors I have taken into account:

1. Lack of carrier borne fixed wing AEW. You need more anti-air and radar assets simply because of this. This Achilles heel has to be covered in triplicate.

2. Number of carrier borne aircraft is lower and our sortie generation rate is lower with our carrier design.

3. Depletion in Submarine force levels means you need more surface ASW assets

It is actually a blessing that the IAC has been delayed because new vessels for escort are lagging behind. So instead of rationing resources, one strong CBG can be deployed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Jul 2012 16:12

INS Sudarshini on a historic mission

Come September, the Southern Naval Command in Kochi will witness a historic mission, envisaged by none other than Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. INS Sudarshini, Indian Navy’s second sail training ship will embark on a voyage to ASEAN countries, for the first time in the history of the Indian Navy.

A great endeavour for ‘Building Bridges across the Oceans’ as put by the vessel’s Commanding Officer, Sudarshini will touch 13 ports in nine countries in an effort to foster India’s relations with ASEAN (Association of South East Asian Nations).

It was the Prime Minister who conceived the vision of a voyage to commemorate the 10 years of India’s summit-level partnership with the ASEAN countries.

“ASEAN voyage of INS Sudarshini is intended to commemorate 20 years of dialogue partnership and 10 years of summit-level partnership with ASEAN. Our trainees will imbibe the essential art of seamanship, navigation and braving the elements along the way,” pointed out Vice-Admiral Satish Soni, Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Naval Command.

Defence Minister A K Antony will flag off the voyage on September 15. Chief Minister Oommen Chandy is also expected to attend the event.

On the way the vessel will call at Chennai Port. The ports of call in South-East Asia are Padang, Bali, Manado (Indonesia), Port Muara (Brunei), Cebu, Manila (Phillipines), Da Nang (Vietnam), Sihanoukville (Cambodia), Bangkok (Thailand), Singapore, Port Klang (Malaysia), Phuket (Thailand) and Yangoon (Myanmar).

At each port of call, the personnel onboard Sudarshini will attend seminars, share their experiences and take part in joint exercises with the hosts.

On its way back, the vessel will touch Port Blair in the Andamans. On completion of the 192-day-long voyage, Sudarshini is expected to be back by March 26, 2013.

The cadets will get what we call a ‘Sea Sense’ - a sea leg where they will get lessons on navigation and seamanship,” opined Commander Shyam Sundar, Commanding Officer, INS Sudarshini.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2012 18:26

the P28 ships with their 8xKlub ASM missiles are in theory more ideal ASW assets for carrier protection than the Talwar class. now if only we can enough of them in service quickly enough...

titash · Post by **titash** » 23 Jul 2012 19:34

@ Singha:

I believe there is still reasonable doubt as to whether the Kamortas will carry the Klub ASW missile. The pictures of models indicate torpedo tubes and RBU launchers, but the only long range ASW weapon is the on-board helicopter

On a related note, does the IN even possess the Klub ASW missile? I though the Anti-Shipping 3M-54E variant is the only one carried by Talwar/Shivalik/Kilo. Any ideas publix???

Regards,

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 23 Jul 2012 19:55

Bheeshma wrote:There is a new picture of P-28 Kamorta on this forum

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indi ... tes-4.html

Not sure if it was posted earlier. I hope it joins IN by end of 2012 along with a Kolkota

That forum has taken from here only. It was posted some time back by me.

Anyways Isn't Indian Navy becoming an ASW Force?

John · Post by **John** » 23 Jul 2012 21:42

There have been no reports of 91RE2 ever being exported, as for P-28 having Klub the model of it doesn't display it nor does there seem to be any room for it, so not sure where that info came from.

titash · Post by **titash** » 23 Jul 2012 22:50

@ John

Thanks for the info. It's exactly what I suspected

btw, any ideas why the IN chose not to procure a rocket delivered torpedo weapon? Given our ASW focus since 1971 and the fact that every home grown 3000+ ton warship is designed with a 2 Sea King hangar, I find it somewhat surprising

Is it because the Arabian Sea / Bay of Bengal / Indian Ocean are relatively calmer waters, and the escort commander can always call upon helicopter support at all times of the year? I would think that helicopter ops are somewhat compromised by the monsoons

Regards,

Will · Post by **Will** » 23 Jul 2012 22:56

The IN corvettes are as big as the frigates of most navies.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 00:14

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19450
so who is going to install them on the p8-i? I thought it would be HAL.

I would expect a friend to do it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2012 08:40

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusu ... ub-la.html
Simply superb!!!!
yay!!!

btw, the russkies did b@lls-squash-ki at around 1:50 of the video. Nice video of indiski kub landing on indiski vikramaditya.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 24 Jul 2012 12:08

I've wondered about the P-28's weapons fit. I mean, 3100T full load and absolutely NO AShW or ASW strike weapons. Strictly defensive fit:

1x76mm
2xAK630 CIWS
2xRBU 6000
16 Barak-1 SR-SAM
2x3 324mm TTs

I mean that's like a fit for a sub-2000T corvette, not a 3000T+ vessel. What's the deal? What role is envisaged for this class?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2012 13:07

Some good news on Scorpene front

DCNS and SEC Industries achieve another milestone under the Indian Scorpene submarines programme

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 13:12

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cxXLWnCQ-5M/T ... 736915.jpg
where are the klubs if any?

imo they are clearly not on the foredeck. the only place I can think looking at the model the guests are holding is in the gap ahead of the helicopter hanger where the deck level buildup is low.

if there is no UVLS there, same area can house 6-8 smaller Uran type inclined tubes in the typical way western ffg's do.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 24 Jul 2012 14:59

HAL hands over friend-or-foe identification system to Indian Navy

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL-Avionics Division) today handed over to the Indian Navy, the indigenised first production unit of Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF-1410) transponder for the Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft, which completed its initial flight recently.HAL has successfully designed, developed and obtained production clearance for the supply of IFF-1410 transponder, which is also under evaluation and trials for Jaguar aircraft’s Darin III upgrade as well as HAL’s HJT-36 Sitara, a subsonic intermediate jet trainer aircraft, according to HAL’s Deputy General Manager (HR) D V S Raju.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 24 Jul 2012 15:01

I do not see the P-28 ships part of the CBGs unless there are circumstances that make larger ASW assets unavailable.

What the P-28 will do very effectively is free up the larger ships from littoral duties. For example, the corvettes can easily secure the approaches to major port infrastructure in Gujarat and Mumbai. They along with the Kilos are best suited for this role.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Jul 2012 15:19

Singha, unless they are where saving money on plastic i don't see any Garpun FCR so i think chance of Klub or Uran being fitted amid ship is pretty slim.

P-28 is CODAD which makes it high unlikely that it will ever be part of CBG.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 16:01

but without any form of ASM wouldnt it be vulnerable to the cheen/paki FFGs and the stealth waterjet FACs they are getting from PRC now?
it is a costly ship compared to a OPV and has stuff like barak1 and TT yet deleting the ASM armament is very strange.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 24 Jul 2012 17:10

I agree. I find it extremely under-armed for its size. And the Navy's getting AOPVs & OPVs anyway for littoral duties. If we wanted a marginal ASW role, the AOPV hull could've been upsized by 20% to include TTs & Barak + 10T helo. Apart from sensor fit, that's the only difference. Would love to know more about this decision.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 17:20

the 1400t Kora class corvette, has a similar gun , 2 xak630 and 16 Urans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INS_Kora.jpg

other than range, a better sonar, a helicopter hanger and a couple torpedo tubes, this ship twice the weight has nothing to show its superiority in....

the RN type23 carried 8 harpoons! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... issile.jpg

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 24 Jul 2012 17:39

Jaeger wrote:I've wondered about the P-28's weapons fit. I mean, 3100T full load and absolutely NO AShW or ASW strike weapons. Strictly defensive fit:

1x76mm
2xAK630 CIWS
2xRBU 6000
16 Barak-1 SR-SAM
2x3 324mm TTs

I mean that's like a fit for a sub-2000T corvette, not a 3000T+ vessel. What's the deal? What role is envisaged for this class?

Costing $550 Million Each.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2012 18:51

perhaps its a evolutionary dead end and no further orders will be placed. however with a suitable fitment of ASW missiles, it can be a capable independent ASW ship...if anyone wants to attack our shipping routes this kind of ship can check for submarines.

only tsarkar might have a credible comment on this mystery ship.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jul 2012 19:03

Navy's elite commandos Marcos get leaner and meaner look