Eastern Europe/Ukraine

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 22 Jul 2014 08:50

.

The Service Ceiling of Su 25 is 23000 feet's

Someone surely Check out Is the Su 25 ground attacker can carry a Air to air missile.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 22 Jul 2014 09:07

I stand by my day 1 prediction. Not shot from the ground, nor shot on purpose by the rebels. Rebels gain nothing from this.

Meanwhile 2X killed in a day in Gaza, 3X in Syria, Iraq and Afpak are not quiet and this is a nice diversion. Wonder how long before the dream words "regime change" in russia appear in the media. Protests started yet?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2014 09:36

SajeevJino wrote:.

The Service Ceiling of Su 25 is 23000 feet's

Someone surely Check out Is the Su 25 ground attacker can carry a Air to air missile.

Seen here Georgian Su-25 with Air to Air Missile , So yes they can

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2014 10:06

That is the theory being put forth by some.There is striking similarity between the markings of Putin's aircraft and the MH flight.
However,what is shocking is while the Baptist preacher Arsenic what-his-name spouts forth threats to Putin,the UKR forces are attacking Donetsk as seen on BBC TV.Tanks are being used and shelling has killed at least 3, a rocket hitting a children's playground.It is clear that the UKR junta .Chocolate soldier and co.have no inclination whatsoever to bring about a ceasefire as they do not have the support of the locals.What is perhaps spurring on the UKR junta is the approach that Israel is taking in Gaza.But the rest of the UKR is not under rocket attack from a Hamas equivalent ,as all that the eastern people want is to be left alone and run their own lives free from the jackboot of Kiev.

More Qs from Russia.
http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-cras ... questions/
10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash
Published time: July 21, 2014

Russia has released military monitoring data, which shows Kiev military jets tracking the MH17 plane shortly before the crash - and posed yet another set of questions to Ukraine and the US over the circumstances of the tragedy.

Military officials – chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev - posed a number of questions to Kiev and Washington concerning the possible causes of the catastrophe in Eastern Ukraine that killed almost 300 people last Thursday.
1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

“Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov.
2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

“The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 17.20, the plane began to lose speed, and at 17.23 it disappeared from Russian radars.”
3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

“As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.”

Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014. (RIA Novosti)

4. Why did Kiev deploy Buk missile system right next to the militia-controlled area straight ahead of the tragedy?

“We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures.

“Here’s a photo of the same area made on July 17. Please note that the launcher has disappeared. The fifth photo shows a battery of Buk missiles at the village of Zaroshchenskoye 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk on the morning of the same day. The sixth photo shows the same area on July 18. As you can see, the battery has left.”

No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014. (RIA Novosti)

5. On the day of the crash Kiev increased activity on its Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are components of the Buk system in the area. Why?

“Also, July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. Here on this chart you see that there were seven radars operating on July 15, eight radars operating on July 16, and nine radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found.”

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

“There were three civilian planes in the area performing their regular flights at this time. There was a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore at 17:17, there was a flight from Paris to Taipei at 17:24, and then there was the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.”

“Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

(RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)

7. Why was the military jet flying at almost the same time and the same altitude with a passenger plane?

“At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev.

“Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation.

“Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.”

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

“I’d like to say that the information we have presented here is based on objective and reliable data from various technical systems – unlike the groundless accusations made against Russia,” said Kartopolov.

“For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.”

9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles.

Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles.
10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

“US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time.

“This satellite is part of an experimental system designed to track and monitor the launches of missiles of various ranges. If our US colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail. This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed.”

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

This is not the first time Russia brings up questions on the plane crash. No explanations have followed with Kiev insisting they have full evidence of Russia being behind the attack, but so far only releasing tapes.

The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

Boom! MH17 Smoking Guns Emerge! Kiev Did It! Complete Compilation Of All The Evidence As MH17 False Flag Falls Apart!
Monday, July 21, 2014
http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-the ... 64194.html

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Jul 2014 10:21

“US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time.

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/int ... llite.html

Whistleblower: US Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shot Down MH17
Paul Joseph Watson

Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 22 Jul 2014 11:01

From spaceflightnow.com

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n140 ... 84AKUIg-Ul

Satellites hovering over Eastern Europe at the time of the crash Thursday were capable of detecting the fiery plume from the launch of a surface-to-air missile or the fireball produced if the rocket struck a jumbo jet at cruise altitude, according to Marco Langbroek, a Dutch archaeologist and a respected amateur satellite tracker.

Langbroek posted the information on his blog Friday.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2014 11:28

Satellites cannot detect the plume of missile launch , specially if its a SAM with just 7-8 seconds of burn time. It can detect plume of large missile like ICBM with a long burn time.

How ever they can detect a large fireball in the air of MH 17 exploded in the air,

From the only pictures of MH-17 we can see a huge fireball when it felt on the ground and exploded.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 22 Jul 2014 12:05

Austin wrote:Satellites cannot detect the plume of missile launch , specially if its a SAM with just 7-8 seconds of burn time. It can detect plume of large missile like ICBM with a long burn time.

How ever they can detect a large fireball in the air of MH 17 exploded in the air,

From the only pictures of MH-17 we can see a huge fireball when it felt on the ground and exploded.

Since its battle zone, I bet west must be deployed a constellation of highest resolution remote sensing satellites for intel gathering. When these satellites can detect humans, they even can detected 4-6 km long fumes in a clear sky.

According to videos and photos of falling debris, the skies have higher visibility. Then a long fumes, from earth to sky must have been visible to 20-40 away, but no body in that area ever noticed fume trails. West is hiding something.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 22 Jul 2014 12:23

From NightWatch.

Ukraine: Fighting broke out near the railway station in Donetsk on Monday. Separatists said the clash represented an attempt by government forces to recover the city, which is the main city of the eastern Ukrainian separatists. Five people were killed and 12 wounded.

The regime in Kyiv denied sending regular army soldiers into Donetsk. It claimed small "self-organized" pro-Ukrainian groups were fighting the pro-Russian rebels in the city.

Comment: It is difficult to take the government account at face value after almost four months of secession by the separatists in Donetsk. A special forces operation by the National Guard is more credible. Its objective would be to demoralize the separatists by fomenting distrust of neighbors as potential enemies.

Special comment: Last week, NightWatch wrote that the evidence pointed to the eastern Ukrainian separatists as responsible for shooting down the Malaysian airliner. That continues to be the case, but Readers are advised that the evidence in the public domain remains thin. For one thing, the Ukrainian army has not accounted for its Buk M1 (SA-11/SA-17) systems and units. No one seems to have asked for an accounting.

Another concern is that the video images that Ukraine has published lack context and a chain of custody. One blogger claimed that one so-called "smoking gun" video that Kyiv released had a date stamp that preceded the shoot down. Comments attributed to anonymous US intelligence sources always are hedged with qualifiers about what is believed or estimated. The US narrative is one theory of the case, not proof.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2014 12:51

Independent UK.See both sides of the event.

MH17 plane crash latest: What you need to know about Russian claims
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/m ... eyqrpSI3Zl

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... pects-mh17
Russia hits back at claims it supported rebels suspected of downing MH17
Vladimir Putin still blames Kiev for disaster in eastern Ukraine and claims west is using air atrocity for political gain

President Vladimir Putin and Russia's military top brass have attempted to strike back at accusations that they had supported the pro-Russian rebels suspected of shooting down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine.

The Kremlin appeared to be on the defensive after western countries suggested that Moscow bears some blame for the tragedy and demanded that Putin take steps to end the violence in the region.

President Barack Obama has asserted that a surface-to-air missile from rebel-controlled territory brought down the plane, but Russian officials and state-controlled television have focused on theories implicating the Ukrainian government or its western backers.

Speaking forcefully in televised comments on Sunday night, Putin again placed responsibility for the tragedy on Kiev and hinted that the west was using it for political gain. He suggested that the resumption of Kiev's military campaign in eastern Ukraine after a failed ceasefire in June had led to the downing of the plane.

"We can say with confidence that if military actions hadn't been resumed in eastern Ukraine on 28 June, this tragedy probably wouldn't have happened," Putin said. "In addition, no one has the right and no one should use this tragedy to achieve selfish political goals."

The Kremlin also announced that the country's security council would meet on Tuesdayto discuss "maintaining the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Russian Federation". It was not clear whether Moscow meant to raise the issue of fighting near the Russian-Ukrainian border, which it said killed a Russian citizen earlier this month, or take steps to close the border to Russian volunteers and possibly weapons.

Officials and pro-Kremlin pundits have protested that the west is jumping to premature conclusions about the rebels' guilt and Russia's involvement. Meanwhile, the media has reported on a variety of theories, many of them since debunked, alleging that Ukrainian forces were trying to shoot down Putin's presidential jet or that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 had been full of dead bodies.

Over the weekend, the defence ministry released 10 questions for the Ukrainian government which implied that Kiev was covering up evidence pointing to its own culpability. At a briefing on Monday, the defence ministry presented what it said was evidence suggesting that Ukrainian warplanes or air defence forces could be to blame, lambasted the west for "unfounded accusations" against Russia, and hinted at a possible conspiracy involving the United States.

Andrei Kartopolov, head of the military's main operations directorate, said the aircraft had deviated from its flight path. He showed Russian satellite images which he said revealed that "three to four divisions" of Buk missile launchers, the weapon widely suspected to be involved in downing the plane, had been deployed near Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. One Buk complex had been moved from Donetsk to near rebel-controlled areas right before the tragedy, he claimed.

"Why and against whom did Ukrainian forces deploy such a powerful air defence formation near Donetsk, since it's well known that the rebels don't have aviation?" Kartopolov said.

Kartopolov also argued that a Ukrainian fighter jet, "probably an Su-25", had been detected two to three miles away from the Malaysian plane before it went down. Igor Makushev, head of the air force general staff, showed a video of a radar screen in Rostov-on-Don that he said revealed an unidentified aircraft, probably a military plane, appearing in the area after the Boeing went down. "Earlier, Ukrainian authorities stated that on this day warplanes were not in the area of the incident. As you can see, that isn't true," Makushev said.

Kartopolov finished by calling on Washington to release satellite imagery proving the missile was fired from rebel-controlled territory, wondering if "it was accidental or not" that a US satellite was overhead at the time of the incident.

"I'd like to note that the information we've presented is based on objective and authentic data of different Russian monitoring systems, in contrast to the unfounded accusations against us," he said. "I want to stress that Russian Federation did not give the rebels Buk surface-to-air missiles, or any other weapons or military equipment."

Kiev, Washington and Nato have all argued that Russian weapons have come across the border into eastern Ukraine in recent months, including a large group of military vehicles this month.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2014 14:28

kmkraoind wrote:Since its battle zone, I bet west must be deployed a constellation of highest resolution remote sensing satellites for intel gathering. When these satellites can detect humans, they even can detected 4-6 km long fumes in a clear sky.

Satellites detecting humans is very debatable , The plume of a SAM is very low compared to ICBM and they can launch it from any where and it has a short burn time 7-8 sec , So detecting a SAM launch even with the most advanced satellite its probability is very low.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Jul 2014 14:32

and how would they detect it even if they have the capability ??? unless they have the sat positioned there waiting for this to happen

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jul 2014 14:53

krishnan wrote:and how would they detect it even if they have the capability ??? unless they have the sat positioned there waiting for this to happen

This is a zone of intense interest for many many parties, all with multiple fingers in the same complex pie. Many satellites are deployed here with refined capabilities of comm intelligence, IR, radar and EW.

A SAM launch would have triggered multiple sensors. Alert would have first been triggered when the BUK or any other weapon radar came alive and went into it's search, narrow scan and lock pattern

The pictures of the BUK launcher allegedly being moved out by the Russians came from a human source as the angle of the shot is not right for a satellite. You can also safely bet that a couple of paki national birds from Russian or western sources would have also been part of the battlefield makeup.

No one is revealing their cards because it will disclose the secret technical capabilities of the deployed satellites.

You can bet your boots that recordings of the shooting are available with multiple players and concerned folks on both sides know exactly what happened.

After the 777 hit the ground, many more satellites with high resolution IR and other cameras would have additionally moved into the zone.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 22 Jul 2014 15:10

krishnan wrote:and how would they detect it even if they have the capability ??? unless they have the sat positioned there waiting for this to happen

The sats actually were positioned there. Though waiting to see something else. Something that looks a lot different from an exploding aviation fuel which we all saw exploded on the ground. Changes nothing.

Even if the sat on incline orbit saw the exploding warhead (expectedly more accurate than the two geostationary ones), then what we need to infer as a result of the claimed observation is that the explosion was not inside or under the airliner. Rather the exploding warhead was aligned with the airliner and sats, in a manner that the explosion would be in the line of sight of the sats.

From the isharebaazi level report posted by TSJ ji:

The Air Force's Space Based Infrared System was developed to detect strategic missile launches. Originally a product of the Cold War, when the U.S. military wanted early warning of a nuclear attack, the system now features modernized satellites with the sensitivity to see conventional short-range missiles, large explosions and wildfires.

The SBIRS constellation includes dedicated satellites flying in geostationary orbit, a ring 22,300 miles above the equator. The Air Force also has infrared missile-detection payloads on top secret National Reconnaissance Orbit satellites in oval-shaped "Molniya" orbits to provide polar coverage.

The fully operational SBIRS network will have four satellites in geostationary orbit, known as SBIRS GEO, and two hosted payloads on classified NRO satellites, called SBIRS HEO.

<snip>

According to Langbroek, the SBIRS GEO 1 and SBIRS GEO 2 satellites were in view of eastern Ukraine at the time Flight MH17 went down Thursday. Another SBIRS payload mounted on an NRO satellite dubbed USA 184 was also over the region.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jul 2014 16:46

The way US sees Russia, as an enemy state, it must have sufficient resources to monitor all activities in Russia and Ukraine. If it has not putout proofs as yet about who fell the aircraft and is depending on `common sense`, it seems more likely that whatever they have is not suiting the narrative.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Jul 2014 17:38

For them, common sense means sheep who have been conditioned for decades to hate russia reflexively through the longest running indoctrination machine.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 22 Jul 2014 18:11

Austin wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:.

The Service Ceiling of Su 25 is 23000 feet's

Someone surely Check out Is the Su 25 ground attacker can carry a Air to air missile.
Seen here Georgian Su-25 with Air to Air Missile , So yes they can

they added a Rail launcher to fire the R 60 don't know Ukraine has did it like the Georgians did

a Ukrainian Su 25 with A2A may debunk this.. unfortunately I have 17 Su25 pictures which belonged to Ukraine Air force but never find such modified rail Launcher

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jul 2014 18:23

SajeevJino wrote:
Austin wrote:{quote="SajeevJino"}.

The Service Ceiling of Su 25 is 23000 feet's

Someone surely Check out Is the Su 25 ground attacker can carry a Air to air missile.{/quote}

Seen here Georgian Su-25 with Air to Air Missile , So yes they can

they added a Rail launcher to fire the R 60 don't know Ukraine has did it like the Georgians did

a Ukrainian Su 25 with A2A may debunk this.. unfortunately I have 17 Su25 pictures which belonged to Ukraine Air force but never find such modified rail Launcher

For the ukrainains, this would be very simple to do and the mod can be done very quickly too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2014 18:32

ukraine used to be the one of main designer and producer of soviet AAMs back in the good old days.
two known names are artem and arsenal.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Jul 2014 18:39

What actual evidence has massa put out so far?

Surely they know that their say so does not carry weight anymore...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 22 Jul 2014 18:41

Gus wrote:What actual evidence has massa put out so far?

Surely they know that their say so does not carry weight anymore...

they have a billion brainwashed indoctrinated sheep behind them and the largest military might, who cares nonsensical things like proof?

the western public are starved for an enemy. Their leaders do not want them to see inside - viola create a monster outside. The principle right from roman gladiators to creating "monsters" outside remain the same.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2014 21:49

Guys lets stick to facts.

Austin has produced an image that SU-25 can be armed with Ato A missile.
Now the goal post is find a Ukranain Su25 armed with Ato A.
The corollary is if Georgia can do it can Ukraine which is more industrial power do it?

Space base IR looks at long wave IR which is characteristic of ICBMs due to the fuel.
So does SAM or large fireballs have long waver IR components?

It could be visual.
However there are no claims yet about visual of detection of plumes or contrails.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2014 22:26

France and Germany going soft on Russia? Why? Because they know the truth of the crash?
Despite immense pressure form the Atlanticist bumchums,the US and UK,France and Germany are resisting even more sanctions against Russia as their interests will be affected and perhaps that they know the weakness of the evidence that pro-Russian separatists shot down the MH airliner.By the same yardstick it can be argued that the US must suffer sanctions and war crimes trials as pro-US Israel has just killed over 600 Palestinians in its totally indiscriminate war against Gaza!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 19934.html
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: France and Germany accused of going soft on Putin as sanctions talks stall

Xcpts:

American and British attempts to persuade other European leaders to impose a package of tough new EU sanctions on Russia appeared to have stalled this evening.

Senior French and German diplomatic sources indicated that they were unlikely to back British proposals for new wide-ranging restrictions on key Russian energy, finance and defence firms.

Privately, senior British government sources admit that resistance from other European capitals means it is unlikely that new sanctions will be agreed at a meeting of foreign ministers in Brussels tomorrow, although they stress that the situation is “fluid”.

An agreement was reached on Monday night at the UN Security Council when Russia joined other nations in voting for an independent investigation into the Malaysia Airlines disaster and an end to military activity in eastern Ukraine, after a sometimes emotional session in New York.

The Russians faced harsh criticism however for their handling of the separatists. But the promise by rebels to belatedly hand over to Malaysian authorities the black boxes from the destroyed flight MH17, as well as the start today of the repatriation process of those killed on the plane, has strengthened the hand of those arguing that further sanctions could hamper future Russian co-operation.

Much, British officials say, will depend on the position of the Dutch, who lost 193 citizens in the crash, and whether they calculate that the imposition or threat of further sanctions will help or hinder the investigation into the attack.

The Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, said today that “all political, economic and financial options” were on the table if access did not improve to the area in eastern Ukraine where the Malaysian airliner went down, killing all 298 people on board.

In a statement to the House of Commons David Cameron made plain his frustration with other European leaders, including the French President, François Hollande, and the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, for being too cautious in imposing wide-ranging trade bans.

Singling out France he suggested that Mr Hollande should suspend the delivery of two Mistral warships that are due to be handed over to Russia in October.

“We would not sell further arms to Russia [and] we believe other European countries should be doing the same.

“Frankly, in this country it would be unthinkable to fulfil an order like the one outstanding that the French have.”

READ MORE: What you need to know about Russian claims
Russian authorities point finger at Ukrainian jet

But Mr Cameron said “for too long” there had been reluctance on the part of “too many European countries” to face up to “implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine”.

Raising the spectre of the Second World War, Mr Cameron added that Europe should need no reminding of the “consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries”.

“We should not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe – and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent,” he said. “It is time to make our power, influence and resources felt.”

Among the sanctions for which the UK is understood to be pushing are measures against the Russian airline Aeroflot, which last month launched a low-cost subsidiary Dobrolyot whose maiden flight connected Moscow with the recently annexed Crimea.

Diplomatic sources said on Monday night that negotiations on an EU response were “still very fluid” ahead of the talks but that the most likely outcome was a speeding up in the process of naming individuals and companies banned from doing business in Europe because of their direct involvement in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

There could also be a renewed threat of so-called Tier 3 sanctions targeted at sectors of the Russian economy such as finance, oil and gas or defence.

But Britain is far more hawkish than Paris and Berlin, which fear that the immediate imposition of further sanctions could be counter-productive. They worry that it could hamper Russian co-operation into the crash investigation as well as making it harder domestically for President Putin to withdraw support from Ukrainian separatists.

“Sanctions are a means to achieve a goal but are not a goal themselves,” said a German diplomatic source.
“They are really only useful if they continue to be a threat.”

French officials added that they expected the foreign ministers meeting would probably lead to renewed threats of stronger sanctions but will make few firm decisions.

Paris also does not want to be railroaded into a ban on military sales to Moscow that could force it to renege upon the Mistral deal.

But America is keen for Europe to take a much stronger line with Mr Putin – in part because 50 per cent of Russia’s trade is with the EU.

Speaking at the White House, President Barack Obama said Vladimir Putin had to “get serious” about quelling the hostilities in eastern Ukraine and to use his influence over separatists there to stop getting in the way of an international investigation of the downing of Flight MH17.

“The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site,” Mr Obama asserted, as well as impeding the access of investigators. “All of which begs the question: what exactly are they trying to hide?”

Mr Putin, he said, had “direct responsibility” to compel the separatists to get out of the way of international investigators, warning Moscow it will be penalised further if it doesn’t act. Mr Obama made no mention of any divisions between the US and Europe on how far those sanctions might be taken.

“If Russia continues to violate Ukraine’s sovereignty… then Russia will only further isolate itself from the international community and the cost of Russia’s behaviour will continue to increase,” the US President insisted.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2014 22:37

I think there is a British hand in the shoot down. It smacks of their tactics of hidden mace.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 22 Jul 2014 22:38

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

Russia is on the dark side. And so speaketh Ukrainian Prime minister Arsenik.
These guys are an embarrassment.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2014 23:43

Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 22 Jul 2014 23:45

Austin wrote:Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London

Oh the chutzpah of the poodles

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jul 2014 01:58

Doesn't matter if Londonistan is partial or not. Black boxes cannot point a finger at who fired the missile unless the voice recording has the captain saying "Oh look! The pro-Russian rebel thugs 5 miles Southeast of Donetsk have just launched a captured BuK missile and it's heading straight for us!" It could happen. More likely, it will tell us why the aircraft was diverted out of its flight path to the Donetsk area and by whom. If this is something Londonistan may not want to make public, they could just say that the recorders were compromised by the Russians. I would be surprised if the Russians haven't already made copies of the data before handing it over. There must be a lot of other irrefutable data in Russian hands to show what really happened and nothing will be released until the right time.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 23 Jul 2014 03:53

^^^That corridor was being used by other airlines as well. I don't buy the argument it was diverted. The circumstantial evidence points to the pro-Russian separatists. The area is under their control and they have mishandled the crash site by the simple fact they prevented a quick recovery of the bodies and personal belongings. I wonder what the discussion on this forum would be if Air India 787 got shot down instead of MH-17? In fact the AI pilot tried to radio MH-17, but obviously got no response.

Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Jul 2014 03:57

That corridor should be closed
It is conflict zone

No civilian plane should be allowed in that corridor

Ukrainian govt should explain why that corridor is open

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 23 Jul 2014 04:13

What a way to deprecate oneself. Way to go for the US president Obama. This blatant lying and getting away is possible only by having absolute control on media. This needs to be addressed big time by all self respecting nations of the world.

US, as usual, equivocating on everything it said

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jul 2014 04:21

Mort Walker wrote:^^^That corridor was being used by other airlines as well. I don't buy the argument it was diverted.

Well, it was diverted to a conflict zone that had seen several aircraft shot down. The black box should tell us why.

The circumstantial evidence points to the pro-Russian separatists. The area is under their control

I don't understand this at all. What evidence points to the separatists that doesn't also point far more convincingly to the Ukrainians?

and they have mishandled the crash site by the simple fact they prevented a quick recovery of the bodies and personal belongings.

This is absolute rubbish. How would a "good" country that doesn't have air disaster specialists handle the site any differently? They would obviously be cautious of touching anything, including bodies, before they had some level of assurance. And they obviously have good reason to be suspicious of Ukrainian and Euros finding incriminating "evidence" when these folks were so quick to point at them in the absence of any.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 23 Jul 2014 04:23

That TOIlet report confirms that the Malaysian flight was diverted by an independent(?) third party.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jul 2014 04:29

The US govt said immediately after the shoot down that they had tracked a missile hitting the plane. All concerned parties should ask for the details on this. In this age of SM, RT and Youtube, the Russians are more than capable of refuting lies and presenting their own convincing counter evidence. We will see the US backtracking soon, guaranteed.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 23 Jul 2014 05:18

However, behind US backtracking and eating its own shite, one must be careful in observing that the next step is to sustain the ambiguity and not ascribe the responsibility where it truly lies - that is with Ukraine. Those mofos need to be held responsible and made to pay all the claims and further punished to make an example out of them.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 23 Jul 2014 06:09

Austin wrote:Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London

this could be the requirement of (Brishit owned?) insurance company to have the black box validated by firm of their choice. This could be one another leverage for the west to exploit during such times.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 23 Jul 2014 06:43

Satya_anveshi wrote:
Austin wrote:Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London
this could be the requirement of (Brishit owned?) insurance company to have the black box validated by firm of their choice. This could be one another leverage for the west to exploit during such times.

Are countries (not just the chosen ones), self sufficient in their ability to read and decipher black box data? I mean, when a commercial airplane is purchased, does it come standard with black box reader/interpreter in the plastic packaging? I'm sure black box hacking tool must be an upgrade and purchased separately?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2014 06:56

I think the NSA guys in charge of monitoring that sector of the world were busy swapping selfie nanga photos of cutie pies they had intercepted from routine catch-all surveillance.
now given this situation all these guys will be given a posting to someplace like aleutian islands or freetown,nigeria for ten years.

and GOTUS is busy trying to fit its own theory around the aftermath of the disaster.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 23 Jul 2014 07:41

Insurance jugaad is all based out of paikhana aka london.

Malaysian Airlines Insurance related News Report

Malaysia Airlines’ two crashes in less than five months are sending tremors through the aviation insurance market — not least because the carrier’s $2.25 billion overall liability policy is mysteriously missing a standard phrase that usually limits insurers’ payments for search-and-rescue costs.

Malaysia Airlines’ broader policy has a high cap by industry standards — $2.25 billion for each crash — because the carrier operates big Airbus A380s, each configured for 494 passengers, and it wanted ample coverage.

But the policy is unusual in that it does not have a separate sublimit for search-and-rescue costs — it is limited only by the overall $2.25 billion cap for the policy, three people with knowledge of the policy said. It is unclear why the clause was omitted, they said.

The absence of a sublimit for search-and-rescue costs means that Malaysia Airlines could seek reimbursement for tens of millions — and potentially hundreds of millions — of dollars in search costs if the Malaysian and Australian governments decide to bill the airline {reimburse from whom? - airline to seek from govt which in-turn seek from airline?} for even part of their considerable expenses in looking for Flight 370, which vanished on March 8.

he crash of Flight 17 appears to have caught the war risk insurance market particularly by surprise. Insurers often prohibit airlines from flying across dangerous areas, or cancel their policies, but most carriers kept flying over Ukraine until the crash. The number of flights there dropped only 12 percent in the month leading up to it.

“One assumes that if the war risk underwriters thought there was any risk, they would have prohibited airlines from flying or canceled their policies,” said Paul Hayes, head of accidents and insurance at Ascend, an aviation consulting firm in London.

Malaysia Airlines’ war risk policy has a separate, much lower limit than the overall policy for claims for search-and-rescue costs. As in most aviation insurance contracts, a provision caps claims for these costs to a small percentage of the overall value of the policy.

The Atrium Underwriting Group, the lead underwriter for Malaysia Airlines’ war risk insurance, said in a statement that it had immediately approved payment for the loss of the aircraft in Flight 17. Aon, a London-based company that is one of the world’s largest insurance brokers, said over the weekend that the plane had been insured for $97.3 million, but Atrium did not confirm the value.

The crash of Flight 370 triggered a half-payment from Atrium under the war risk policy after adjusters concluded that there was a substantial but not ironclad case that the crash may have involved pilot suicide or other criminal action. War risk policies also cover deliberate, malicious acts.

The Allianz-led policy — Allianz itself has only 9 percent of the exposure, having shared the rest with other underwriters — paid the balance of the cost of that aircraft, which had been insured for $100.2 million, insurance executives said.

Insurance adjusters agreed with the Malaysian government there was a strong but not fully proved possibility that Flight 370 was lost because of deliberate action, given that the plane made a series of at least four well-executed turns over the course of an hour before heading south across the Indian Ocean until it apparently ran out of fuel. The final compromise followed a precedent in other cases in which pilot suicide was suspected but not proved.

“It was basically split between the two policies,” said Neil Smith, the head of underwriting at the Lloyd’s Market Association, a trade group composed of Lloyd’s of London insurance underwriters.

This is interesting:

The crashes of Flight 370 and Flight 17 are not Malaysia Airlines’ first unusual insurance claims, however. The airline had an unusual claim in 2000 for the total loss of an Airbus A330 traveling in the opposite direction on the same route as Flight 370.

In that case, a canister of a mysterious Chinese shipment destined for Iran broke open near the end of a trip from Beijing to Kuala Lumpur and began leaking, producing a smell that prompted the captain to conduct an emergency evacuation upon landing of all 266 people aboard. A subsequent investigation found that the hold was contaminated beyond cleaning with mercury and other chemicals that may have been precursors for the manufacture of nerve gas.

The Malaysian government ended up digging a large hole in the ground near the airport tarmac and burying the entire plane. Insurers paid a full settlement of $90 million.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 23 Jul 2014 08:37

Victor wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^That corridor was being used by other airlines as well. I don't buy the argument it was diverted.
Well, it was diverted to a conflict zone that had seen several aircraft shot down. The black box should tell us why.

The circumstantial evidence points to the pro-Russian separatists. The area is under their control
I don't understand this at all. What evidence points to the separatists that doesn't also point far more convincingly to the Ukrainians?

and they have mishandled the crash site by the simple fact they prevented a quick recovery of the bodies and personal belongings.
This is absolute rubbish. How would a "good" country that doesn't have air disaster specialists handle the site any differently? They would obviously be cautious of touching anything, including bodies, before they had some level of assurance. And they obviously have good reason to be suspicious of Ukrainian and Euros finding incriminating "evidence" when these folks were so quick to point at them in the absence of any.

1. It was a corridor used by several airlines. Not a good choice, but was cleared by ICAO and Eurocontrol nevertheless.
2. The US may manipulate politics in Uk, but they can simply not cover up a calamity of this order. If the US says it detected a missile launch, they are to be TRUSTED ON THIS MATTER. The evidence will come out and it will point to the pro-Russian thug Cossacks.
3. A "good" country would quickly recover the bodies and get the flight data recorders for analysis ASAP. It was a Boeing aircraft that is in service in hundreds around the world. For the sake of determining if there was any mechanical failure, experts should have been brought in even from Russia. The purpose is to keep air travel safe. A "good" country would do this. There is even more circumstantial evidence these thugs have used credit cards of the dead, stolen personal belongings, and tampered with evidence.

The US is no saint in the Uk crisis, but the Russians are proving themselves to be no better than the Pakis, and probably worse after shooting or helping those who shot down a civilian airliner. The pro-Russian view in this thread is sickening like those in the US govt. who support the Pakis.