Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 8, 2011

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 May 2011 10:13

abhishek_sharma wrote:C. Christine Fair is totally Paki in this interview

She is worse than uneven Cohen. She is injecting half-truths, lies and Pakistani paranoia under the guise of explaining Pakistani PoV. I also feel that she enjoys needling India and watching the reaction. At least, that was the impression I got from watching her on the Arnab interview a couple of weeks back. I am sure she is scouring the Internet to see reactions to her soundbites, tid-bits, interviews and articles, and gets a vicarious pleasure from the Indian responses.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 May 2011 10:17

There is no comparison between UnEven and UnFair. Their names say it all.

Uneven at least was an academic with some basis. He may have parroted the State Department line but he understood the both sides. I remember him smiling when my room-mate asked him whether the US will let the Bronx secede if Blacks want a separate nation or the Hispanics of Texas want to merge with Mexico in the discussions held on campus on Cashmere. Remember this was the time of the full-court press on Cashmere during the 90s.

UnFair is foul-mouthed & attention seeking. She lacks the polish and the sophistication needed in this business. She is still relatively fresh out of Univ. of Chicago so perhaps yet to understand the true pulse of the situation. She has published a lot of stuff exposing TSP perfidy also. What rankles is her defense of the Pakistani point of view; or perhaps she is just presenting it under the direction of the SD to earn some goodwill from the TSPA/RAPE.

I think people should be cautious about how they criticize her. Some of the comments have been very personal and demeaning. Given her age, it is very likely that we will be seeing a lot of her in the coming decades. No point in rubbing her in the wrong way too much. Be persistent and to the point.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 27 May 2011 10:20

Points to ponder.

1. Silence from the 3 dogs.
2. Absolute silence from Kiyanahi
3. No photographs or videos of the aftermath. (except for the burnt orions)
4. Difference of facts/fiction between the initial panic statements Vs the FIR.
5. Still not sure how many walked in to the base, how many were killed, how many escaped, what was the casualty and amongst who.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 May 2011 10:20

^^^
stop posting links to Unfair. stop talking about her. and definitely no videos or direct links to her articles. completely ignore her. we are increasing her profile by talking about her constantly.....

habal · Post by **habal** » 27 May 2011 10:23

The theories I have heard about the Orions are
1) They were emptied of avionics which were given to the Chinese and then blown up.

this is very much possible. As quid-pro-quo for Abottabad, the pakis may have given away Orion viscera to the Chinese. They may have been previously used in WANA/FATA or w/e thus signalling their clean break from US operations. They needed a pretext and global cover for this job, and thus used the same shadow group created probably with help of CIA and ISI expertise and that's why unkil was deathly quiet about this whole job all this while. Pakis were using the same reserve group created by culinary for it's false-flag operations.

As soon as the dog lifted it's leg, unkil knew what was going to happen.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 May 2011 10:28

That article by pagal sehegal is complete BS. For some one who claims to be defence analyst, the numbers are all over the place.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 May 2011 10:31

which article ?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 May 2011 10:47

The Chinese and Americans have been jointly running Pakistan for a long time, they both have personnel on ground and are both aware of others presence.

If they have to do anything clandestine (and I am sure huge amount of stuff would have been happening anyway) -- why draw attention by dhamake-baazi. That would be rather counterproductive. For example now even the Aam Jingo knows that Chinese hang around close to Orions. Not good for business I say.

The simplest option usually holds, and I expect that it was a simple case of TTP doing their bit to spite Pak-US combo. In the confusion, the curtain dropped a bit to let us outsiders get a sneak peek in.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 27 May 2011 11:08

shiv wrote:
asgkhan wrote:
Why create dots and connect them unnecessarily sowing confusion ? There is no mega conspiracy or dramabaazi here. Qadrification and wajib-ul-cutlets being served. That's all.
I agree with this viewpoint. The destruction of two Orions is getting a lot more importance than the large number of other issues in the attack and a lot of effort is going to finding explanations for the Orions. This is an important Pakistani military base. It was infiltrated with ease. The Pakistani armed forces responded with their own special forces and the habitual liars admitted that their special forces were pinned down by 6 men for 17 hours and lost 10 men to 4 attackers. For an echandee obsessed nation whose armed forces' morale has been rubbed in the dirt by the Osama raid a convoluted story of how the Orions were key to this attack is unlikely.

The theories I have heard about the Orions are
1) They were emptied of avionics which were given to the Chinese and then blown up.
2) The Orions were going to carpet bomb Waziristan

Assuming that both these theories could have some truth in them it would be sensible to look at other explanations as well and not stick to the above two explanations as the only possibilities. The other explanations are
1) The "bad Taliban" are at war with the Pakistani state and will attack when they have assessed that security is weak
2) The Pakistan navy in particular has played a role in cooperating with the US and the "bad Taliban" wanted to hit them in revenge
3) Once inside the air base - the Orions were huge sitting ducks waiting to be taken Aircraft have much more delicate skin than buildings and burn better, they are larger targets than humans. It is a no brainer to fire at an aircraft. I would be happy to be shown examples of airfield tarmacs where they allow smoking and shooting live ammunition to be fired. I always thought that both are unhealthy for aircraft.

If one were to completely dismiss the theory that there is aa "bad Taliban" (TTP) who are against the Pakistan armed forces - then we have to come up with a Hamid Gul like story that all Pakis are Muslim brothers who are out to fight kafirs and this raid was done by the Indians

There is a third theory of attack too, which was given by Shymad

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1097802

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 May 2011 11:32

shravan wrote:PNS Mehran fiasco: Civilian investigators being given cold shoulder

The forensic experts of the anti-terrorism wing of the FIA are also not allowed to inspect the arms used by the terrorists, the dead bodies of the terrorists and the route used by the terrorists to enter into the base.
----

PNS Attack: CC TV footage unavailable,
http://www.aaj.tv/2011/05/pns-attack-cc ... officials/

The CC TV footage of PNS Mehran is unavailable as the wires of CC Tv cameras were cut down before the terrorist attack of 22nd May.

According to the officials, “When the investigation begins and the police ask PNS squad for the footage, they were informed that the footage was not recorded due to the slashed wires”.

The investigation team is coming across various problems, so they asked PNS administration for complete cooperation and information, officials says.

Looks more and more like inside job by ISI. Reminds me of Bibi getting her 72 and the washing down of crime scene that followed.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 May 2011 11:53

Why create dots and connect them unnecessarily sowing confusion ? There is no mega conspiracy or dramabaazi here. Qadrification and wajib-ul-cutlets being served. That's all.

Right. The cutting of the CCTV wires confirms the fact it's an internal job. Either Quadrification in the PN with TTP assistance has launched this. It's been known that Onions have been used against TTP. The PN chief boasted about it a week or so ago. Or it's an internal job carried out to do an ==/ get media attention away from the OBL embarassment and create a new one of victimhood. One of these two options only i can see.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2011 11:58

how exactly has the Orions been used against TTP ? the EP3 version run by USN is presumably flying daily over NWFP and Baluchistan but whats the role of PN ASW P3 in the anti-TTP thing ? PN could even use its fokker and atlantique maritime patrol craft to detect TTP arms and men coming in from oman side on dhows.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 May 2011 12:03

harbans wrote:Why create dots and connect them unnecessarily sowing confusion ? There is no mega conspiracy or dramabaazi here. Qadrification and wajib-ul-cutlets being served. That's all.

Right. The cutting of the CCTV wires confirms the fact it's an internal job. Either Quadrification in the PN with TTP assistance has launched this. It's been known that Onions have been used against TTP. The PN chief boasted about it a week or so ago. Or it's an internal job carried out to do an ==/ get media attention away from the OBL embarassment and create a new one of victimhood. One of these two options only i can see.

Or as SHiv had pointed out, a way to get important Khan equipment in the Hands of the Chinese.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 27 May 2011 12:10

^^
But there are other ways to do that without taking a hit on ech & dee like this.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 May 2011 12:12

Ok so 3 options after the CCTV wire cut off are like:

1. TTP with PN insider operation. (Pure quadrification and Jihad against less pious)

2. ISI with PN insider operation. (To do ==/ victimhood/ attention away from OBL embarassmet)

3. ISI with PN insider operation. (To get US tech maal to Chinese)

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 May 2011 12:17

option 1 onlee; lets have a vote on this

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 27 May 2011 12:20

Only one Paki paper has reported about CCTV wire cut off.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 May 2011 12:46

I had proposed 2, but I feel 3 is just as good.

Considering that the Pakistanis are trying hard to get into bed with the Chinese, now that Paki farting is all over Amreeka, it would seem plausible that they are trying hard to ingratiate themselves to the Chinese.

Considering that no one was caught, and the military is not letting the civilians do the investigation, everything points out to an establishment sanctioned raid. The TTP simply gets paid to take the blame for everything under the sky, for plausible deniability onlee!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 27 May 2011 12:48

Meet a stupid US Air Force Lt Col

In sum, airpower is important to Pakistan as an instrument to balance Indian power, and although US sanctions that damaged the modernization of Pakistani airpower may have been justified, the growing airpower imbalance in South Asia has degraded the overall balance of power and resulted in a Pakistani reliance on asymmetric strategies and an unsettling early-use nuclear doctrine.

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 27 May 2011 12:48

harbans wrote:Ok so 3 options after the CCTV wire cut off are like:

1. TTP with PN insider operation. (Pure quadrification and Jihad against less pious)

2. ISI with PN insider operation. (To do ==/ victimhood/ attention away from OBL embarassmet)

3. ISI with PN insider operation. (To get US tech maal to Chinese)

I will go for point no 2.
In addition to what Harbansji has stated, I would like to add the "blackmail" theory.
Pakis can say look there are elements within the army and isi we have to consider. They will not like any PA action in NW and other places.. so cannot do more on wot. If you push us things will get worse .. in other words, no further PA action against the talibs including Haqqani group.
Mehran incident happening just a few days after John Kerry's visit and before Madam Clinton's . makes me wonder.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 May 2011 12:54

All the attackers on PNS Mehran probably did was to get rid of the evidence that P-3C Orion avionics had been removed and handed over to the Chinese.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 May 2011 12:56

Singha wrote:how exactly has the Orions been used against TTP ? the EP3 version run by USN is presumably flying daily over NWFP and Baluchistan but whats the role of PN ASW P3 in the anti-TTP thing ? PN could even use its fokker and atlantique maritime patrol craft to detect TTP arms and men coming in from oman side on dhows.

Long range eye in the sky for NATO transport vehicles while on the way to Karachi. (As per BRaman)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 May 2011 13:17

Folks, this is purely and simply a case of 'bad Taliban' attacking the State one more time. As Najam Sethi says, this has all the hallmarks of the GHQ attack in c. 2009. There is no doubt there has been insider support. Is that surprising to us here ?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 27 May 2011 13:32

+1 SS Saar.

TTP has even gone ahead and taken responsibility. It was pure and simple message to PA that US is not the only one with claims to their virgnity.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2011 13:34

Sanku wrote:
Singha wrote:how exactly has the Orions been used against TTP ? the EP3 version run by USN is presumably flying daily over NWFP and Baluchistan but whats the role of PN ASW P3 in the anti-TTP thing ? PN could even use its fokker and atlantique maritime patrol craft to detect TTP arms and men coming in from oman side on dhows.
Long range eye in the sky for NATO transport vehicles while on the way to Karachi. (As per BRaman)

To avoid USS Cole type attacks in Karachi harbour?

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2011 14:01

MKB suggesting GoI to shut the $#%& up and sit quiet after the next attack on India by Paki minions and instead sympathize with TSP:

Help Pakistan and help ourselves

The gyre of internal debates within Pakistan regarding the terrorist strike on the Karachi naval base last Saturday is narrowing. That is somewhat surprising because we South Asians are so garrulous and we are capable of wild flights of fancy and it is not yet a week since the terrorists struck and until today no one knows what really happened although we kept spinning yarns.

Conspiracy theories that the Indians staged the terrorist attack in Karachi have no takers and, curiously ,that is not because we in India cried hoarse insisting on our innocence, but thoughtful Pakistanis themselves feel they are self-serving nonsense. India’s silence has turned out to be ‘golden’.

The point is, there is an unprecedented mood of introspection going on within Pakistan today about where the country is heading. I have not seen anything like this since 1977 when I first began with the Pakistan Division in South Block. It seems to me that the probability is exceptionally high that the soul-searching will deepen and Pakistanis may succeed in purging itself of impurities as days pass if only they are allowed to handle their sorrows on their own terms.

WKKism starts from here:

However, some of the burden for ferrying Pakistan to a level of sanity and calm also lies with us. Our restraint is an absolutely basic imperative of the situation. But I have another point to make. We should guard against becoming a cats-paw of the United States in the highly complicated geo-strategic game that is going on.

The scheduling of Hillary Clinton’s visit to Pakistan next week so soon after John Kerry’s visit a fortnight ago shows that Barack Obama is turning on the charm offensive full throttle. Indeed, the Americans are playing a double game with the Pakistani elites. Meanwhile, Der Spiegel reports that after the Abbottabad operations, German intelligence even ferried Mullah Omar’s right hand man to Europe so that the CIA could have a meeting with him German soil. There are wheels within wheels, obviously. The recent ‘disappearance’ of Omar now assumes a new dimension altogether.

That is to say, an al-Qaeda or Pakistani Taliban attack on India at this time is simply not imaginable. Indian restraint will not only help Pakistan at the present juncture but in the process we will also be helping ourselves to minimise the lethal dangers of collateral damage from the inferno that the US created in our region when it invaded Afghanistan in 2001.

IIRC, MKB allows his communist anti-Amriki ( CPM advisor after all) thought process to cloud his judgment and in his eagerness to blast US, he doesn't care if Indian interests get harmed.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2011 14:08

At least someone from GoI saying things as they are:
Pakistan is the global epicentre of terror: PC

Home Minister P Chidambaram said Friday that Pakistan, which it termed the "global epicenter of terrorism", was promoting terror infrastructure as "state policy" against India. "The vast infrastructure of terrorism in Pakistan has for
related stories

long flourished as an instrument of state policy," Chidambaram said in his opening remarks at the first internal security dialogue between India and the US.

The home minister was speaking ahead of his talks with his American counterpart Janet Napolitano, who arrived in India Tuesday.

Calling Pakistan the "global epicenter of terrorism", Chidambaram said: "It is a truism to say that India lives in perhaps the most difficult neighbourhood in the world. The global epicenter of terrorism is in our immediate western neighbourhood."

He said different terrorist groups, "operating from the safe havens in Pakistan", have left that country increasingly radicalised.

"Its economy has weakened and the state structure in Pakistan has become fragile. Today, Pakistan itself faces a major threat from the same forces. Its people as well as its state institutions are under attack."

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 27 May 2011 14:36

PCB sweats over security to Afghan team

slamabad: Desperate to show that Pakistan is safe for international teams, the country's Cricket Board has asked the government to provide hightened security for the visiting Afghanistan side.

After a television channel showed the Afghanistan team travelling in a bus in Rawalpindi with only a police mobile escorting it with three officers on board, the PCB has requested that security be increased for the visiting team.

In March 2009, militants attacked the Sri Lankan team bus in Lahore and killed six Pakistani policemen and a van driver besides wounding five Lankan players.

The attack led to Pakistan becoming an isolated cricket nation as far as teams coming to play in the country are concerned.

The Afghanistan team is the first foreign team to visit Pakistan since the 2009 incident which was blamed on inadequate security arrangements by the police and administration.

But a board official said it was in constant touch with the law enforcement agencies and government over security being provided to the Afghan players.

"We are constantly in touch with the government over the security arrangements. We are coordinating with them but the responsibility of providing the security is with the police and other security agencies," he said.

"Because of the prevailing situation in the country where militants are targeting security agencies and police as part of their terrorist activities the law enforcement agencies don't want to be prominent in their presence around the Afghanistan team by having uniformed policemen to guard the players," the official claimed.

"But we have been assured there are enough plain clothed officers providing security cover to the Afghan players," he added.

Board Chairman Ijaz Butt has used the one-day series between Afghanistan and Pakistan 'A' to make a fervent appeal to the cricket world to support Pakistan by sending teams to the country.

Butt has said the board was capable of organising international matches even in the prevailing circumstances with the help of the government.

I love the color of uniform of Afgans, which is Blue and Orange (akin to previous IT color).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 27 May 2011 14:58

Foreign Policy: Pakistan Needs To Lose The Nukes

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 May 2011 15:03

kmkraoind wrote: I love the color of uniform of Afgans, which is Blue and Orange (akin to previous IT color).

I thought they were Indians.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 May 2011 15:08

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nake-m-ka ... 62950.html

Hard hitting article Huffigton post:

The ISI played a duality in bad faith pretending to fight terrorism and concurrently being engaged as an accessory to the killing and injuring of American soldiers. ISI was serving as the conduit by sending fighters, roadside bombs and suicide youth to attack American soldiers in Afghanistan. Some elements of ISI knew where bin Laden was in Pakistan since 2001. Otherwise, he could not have remained in Pakistan for as long as he did. In his last residence in Abbottabad, bin Laden felt so secure and comfortable with his wives and children that he did not bother surrounding himself with security guards; he was just another member of the neighborhood community -- safe and secure in that town of Pakistani military elites. He was sending directives through his messengers/couriers directing his world-wide terrorist network for destruction and murder, including American people and property. And the Pakistani government let him do it and assisted the process.

As a matter of retribution, the United Sates has several options when duplicity is firmly ascertained via bin Laden tapes and computer files.

1. Take out Pakistan's atomic facilities, thereby neutralizing its ability to detonate atomic weapons in any future conflicts.
2. Dismantle the ISI apparatus and arrest its leadership for crimes against humanity, including judicial criminal prosecutions that have caused the death and dismemberment of thousands of American soldiers and Afghan soldiers and civilians in Afghanistan. But for Pakistan's duplicity, the United States and Afghanistan would not have suffered sustained casualties inside Afghanistan. ISI of Pakistan was the ring leader of a criminal conspiracy whose members included bin Laden and Al Qaeda, the Pakistani Taliban, the Jalaluddin Huqqani group, the Mullah Mohammad Omar and the Afghani Taliban, and the Gulbuddin Hekmatyar group.
3. Impose war reparation upon Pakistan equal to the present and future value of the following: Work-life earnings loss and the value of life of every American and Afghan soldier and civilian killed since 2001, and the present value and future value of every American and Afghan soldier and civilian who sustained partial or total disabilities for the remainder of their life, plus the military and civilian expenditures of the U.S. war in Afghanistan since 2001 (had Pakistan turned over bin Laden to the U.S. in 2001, there would have been no U.S. war involvement in Afghanistan. Plus $20 billion -- the amount of assistance that Pakistan has received from the United Sates since 2001, plus punitive damages for bad faith.
4. Dissect Pakistan into three smaller states -- Baluchistan for the Baluchi separatists including the city of Quetta, Pashtunistan for the Pashtun separatists covering the Pashtun tribal areas including Peshawar and the border areas, and Pakistan proper including Lahore and the Karachi areas. The ongoing domestic dissent in the Pashtun and Baluchi areas are rooted in the exploitative and discriminatory practices of the ruling class of Pakistan -- the Lahore elite -- who have alienated those groups.
5. Create a strong civilian government in Pakistan by dismantling the ISI, reducing Pakistan's military prowess and supporting the educated and secular population.

Read in full. One thing though not a single mention of India and other terrorist pigs that porkistan is beholden to and provides safe houses to.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 27 May 2011 15:31

RajeshA wrote:All the attackers on PNS Mehran probably did was to get rid of the evidence that P-3C Orion avionics had been removed and handed over to the Chinese.

American contractors keep a 24/7 watch on US 'assets'. How exactly was the avionics removed without them knowing? The Chinese had access to Orion courtesy Mr. Wang Wei.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 27 May 2011 15:37

Sri wrote:+1 SS Saar.

TTP has even gone ahead and taken responsibility. It was pure and simple message to PA that US is not the only one with claims to their virgnity.

TTP takes credit for everything under the sun. I doubt it though. I think this is a typical example of snake biting the handler. I even make a prediction that Americans are more scared of Jehadi pilots taking off on a Paki F-16 and may use it to bring out a high value US/NATO asset like an Awac.

If I was TTP I would be more concerned about the drone attacks and would send my counter-reaction teams to take on the bases housing them. That would send a powerful message to both the yahoos in PA and US.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 May 2011 15:52

harbans wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nake-m-ka ... 62950.html

Hard hitting article Huffigton post:

Read in full. One thing though not a single mention of India and other terrorist pigs that porkistan is beholden to and provides safe houses to.

The authors knows Pashto and Persian.

It is very important for folks to highlight that balkanizing Pakistan into three:
Balochistan, Greater pashtunistan, and Baki-stan is feasible, realistic, and the morally right thing to do. It will undo the injustice done to them by the British when they were put under the Pakjabi yoke.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 May 2011 15:54

asgkhan wrote:
RajeshA wrote:All the attackers on PNS Mehran probably did was to get rid of the evidence that P-3C Orion avionics had been removed and handed over to the Chinese.
American contractors keep a 24/7 watch on US 'assets'. How exactly was the avionics removed without them knowing? The Chinese had access to Orion courtesy Mr. Wang Wei.

The Wang Wei Orion was a different beast. This is a different platform on the same air-frame. Further in the world of avionics and electronics ten years is a almost two generations of 10x increase in performance. If these were the upgraded PC3 they would have a completely different, much more up to date suite.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 27 May 2011 16:13

I feel Mr.MKB is either fattu or Mr.Gaanfattu.....no guts no glory Mr.MKB

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 May 2011 16:17

abhishek_sharma wrote:C. Christine Fair is totally Paki in this interview

Since Pakistani behavior was the same before the nuclear deal, 2002 Gujarat and before international opinion (mostly) turned against it on J&K, her opinion doesn't make sense.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 27 May 2011 16:18

shiv wrote:Yes I have called the Americans stupid. But I don't think they are that stupid.

Shiv, I feel better already!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 27 May 2011 16:29

Rahul M wrote:which article ?

A page or two earlier. Sehgal has bitter memories of the hospitality his hosts (Indian Army) had shown him after the '71 war. He is reminded of it everytime he visits pakhanistan.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 May 2011 16:46

French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet on the subject of arm sales to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

So no French avionics for the JF-17?:

"This point was raised during the bilateral meeting with Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in Paris recently. I can tell you that France is only selling Pakistan equipment that can be used for electronic interception to fight terror," the French defence minister, who wound up his two-day visit to India, said. "In fact, heavy military equipment is not being sold. We have discouraged any request from Pakistan for heavy equipment," he added.

Read it all:

France puts sale of heavy military hardware to Pakistan on hold