Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

[Lalmohan]

pak_jihadis are on a premature roll, bear - tick, eagle - tick, dragon - ready to rumble
they think they are going to rule the world

[CRamS]

The impact of Osama killing in Abbottabad will linger a very long time on the Paki psyche. Here is this nation supposedly a citadel of Islam, and still was not able to protect the great Shaikh.

Come on, you have been on BR long enough. You are right about the trauma to TSP psyche but for the wrong reasons. TSP RAPE are not hard-core Islamists although Isalmism is at the core of TSP Abduls. TSP RAPE give a flying f**ck for Islam as such. They adore the the green back, scotch whisky, Armani suits, and above all white women. Their unrelenting obsession is to lord over the subcontinent and us SDREs as the descendents of the white Moguls.

The taking out of OBL has been traumatic for TSP because:

1) US humiliated TSPA, the pride of TSP RAPE, in their own back yard, but most importantly right before the eyes of the average brain-washed Abdul. TSPA and RAPE have lost a colossal amount of credibility in the eyes of those they rule

2) TSPA would have gladly sacrificed OBL, but at the most opportune moment when the benefits flowing from US would have been optimal. That they were denied this oppotunity was a huge let down

3) TSP RAPE now knows that US treats them with the contempt they deserve and that contempt was starkly visible in the manner in which US took out OBL without informing TSPA and then rubbed salt on their wound post killing with all the statements. It was a monumntal loss of H&D for TSP RAPE

The main hope for TSP now, and this has some degree of merit, is that US still needs TSP in some measure as part of their "South Asia" balance of power doctrine: India containment.

[sum]

Not sure if this should be posted here or in the internal security thread..maybe I'll X post it there as well. Highly relevant.
spy-war

beautiful article....thanks a ton for postings.

Confirms few things:

1. IKG did indeed single handedly destroy our intel network in Pak.
2. WKKs are deadly dangerous and TSP actively cultivates them, esp high ranking WKKs.
3. Unsure from the article if we do use or do not use honeytraps against others.
4. Seems that we don't aggressively cultivate assets within Pak due to strong ISI counter-intel.
5. Isrealis have a strng network within Desh

Also, X-posting in Intel dhaga.

[John]

It is long known fact that Pakistan has been playing China, has supplied a great deal of Chinese weapon intel to CIA.

Pakistan even pinned China on supplying missile and fission components to Iran (while pocketing billions), US was quick to take the bait and blame China but Mossad agents traced everything back to Karachi.

Pakistan needs leverage to squeeze more money from China it will be interesting to see how it works out.

[chiragAS]

Not sure if this should be posted here or in the internal security thread..maybe I'll X post it there as well. Highly relevant.

my suggestion please delete this from this thread and move to intel thread.

[shiv]

the chinese will not be as tolerant as the americans for sure wrt to paki running-with-hares-and-hounds strategy.

they will demand action in very crude terms - like in lal masjid case. the blowback will be there.

I doubt it. Pakistan is not a problem the Chinese can solve. They will take these blows and beg the ISI (whose chief is visiting) to try and sort things out. He will say "Solly. No money" and the Chinese will give alms. Pakistan is slowly grabbing China by the balls as it grabbed the US. Time for Indians to rub our sore balls with one hand while holding beer and popcorn in the other hand as the great sponsors learn about the real Pakistan.

China will be able to do exactly zilch.

For too many years I have heard people (primarily patriotic Indians, supported by Pakis) say

"India weak. India coward. India stupid. If it was the US they would do haaah hooh and the other. And China? Hah Pakistan wouldn't dare"

what a load of crock. Pakistan was out of control and paid by US and China to screw India. Now they are even less in control and are screwing their masters who can do little other than squirm and pay more protection money.

I tell ya the WKKs had a better picture of the truth than hyper patriots. At lest they realised that paying Pakistan off and sucking up is better than blind opposition. Paying Pakistan off is what the US and China are doing. But we won;t call them WKKs. We call them strong

Funny innit?

If Indians want to suck up to Pakistan, they are cowardly WKKs

If Chinese and US suck up to Pakistan it is called great power games. I tell ya! This is called "strategic, nationalistic thought!" Bulldung is what it is.

[Dipanker]

The impact of Osama killing in Abbottabad will linger a very long time on the Paki psyche. Here is this nation supposedly a citadel of Islam, and still was not able to protect the great Shaikh.

Come on, you have been on BR long enough. You are right about the trauma to TSP psyche but for the wrong reasons. TSP RAPE are not hard-core Islamists although Isalmism is at the core of TSP Abduls. TSP RAPE give a flying f**ck for Islam as such. They adore the the green back, scotch whisky, Armani suits, and above all white women. Their unrelenting obsession is to lord over the subcontinent and us SDREs as the descendents of the white Moguls.

The taking out of OBL has been traumatic for TSP because:

1) US humiliated TSPA, the pride of TSP RAPE, in their own back yard, but most importantly right before the eyes of the average brain-washed Abdul. TSPA and RAPE have lost a colossal amount of credibility in the eyes of those they rule

2) TSPA would have gladly sacrificed OBL, but at the most opportune moment when the benefits flowing from US would have been optimal. That they were denied this oppotunity was a huge let down

3) TSP RAPE now knows that US treats them with the contempt they deserve and that contempt was starkly visible in the manner in which US took out OBL without informing TSPA and then rubbed salt on their wound post killing with all the statements. It was a monumntal loss of H&D for TSP RAPE

The main hope for TSP now, and this has some degree of merit, is that US still needs TSP in some measure as part of their "South Asia" balance of power doctrine: India containment.

You are basing your opinion with respect to the Paki RAPE population which is probably a fraction of 1%, Whereas I am talking about trauma to entire Paki nation psyche which includes the rest 99% population.

Also I think your assumption about 100% RAPE being non-religious is wrong, Pakistan has been mostly ruled by Mullah+Military alliance and the motto of Pakistan's army is " Jihad fi Sabilillah".

Now as far as sacrificing Osama goes at the opportune moment is concerned, I believe Pakis overplayed their cards, and now they are going to pay for it.

But make no mistake about it, trauma to Paki psyche has been monumental. Pakis are a country emasculated.

[gakakkad]

>>>>If Indians want to suck up to Pakistan, they are cowardly WKKs

If Chinese and US suck up to Pakistan it is called great power games. I tell ya! This is called "strategic, nationalistic thought!" Bulldung is what it is.


I agree with the good doc. However , methinks we should coin a new term for WKK equivalents of lizardesh and Khanland. As technically WKK can be used onlee in the context of SDRE. (no waga border in khanland )

[A_Gupta]

Long article in the New Yorker on the elimination of Osama
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011 ... ntPage=all

[CRamS]

For too many years I have heard people (primarily patriotic Indians, supported by Pakis) say

"India weak. India coward. India stupid. If it was the US they would do haaah hooh and the other. And China? Hah Pakistan wouldn't dare"

what a load of crock. Pakistan was out of control and paid by US and China to screw India. Now they are even less in control and are screwing their masters who can do little other than squirm and pay more protection money.

I tell ya the WKKs had a better picture of the truth than hyper patriots. At lest they realised that paying Pakistan off and sucking up is better than blind opposition. Paying Pakistan off is what the US and China are doing. But we won;t call them WKKs. We call them strong

Funny innit?

If Indians want to suck up to Pakistan, they are cowardly WKKs

If Chinese and US suck up to Pakistan it is called great power games. I tell ya! This is called "strategic, nationalistic thought!" Bulldung is what it is.

With all due respect Dr. Shiv, too much of a Chanakyan spin on India's travails with TSP won't cut it. US & China know TSP perfidy well. They don't suck up to TSP, they use them.

And please don't insult people's intelligence by comparing TSP's punching India way above its weight (please read the exclusive thread dedicated to the list of TSP terror attacks against India) and any hanky panky by TSP against US and China. And what about TSP's crown jewels? If TSP even hint, I mean even hint that their nukes threaten US and/or China, you can be rest assured TSP will be a parking lot. In contrast, us SDREs are bottled up like a bunch of stranged chicken out of abject fear. And rightfully so, after all, we have no chance of retaliation for all the well-known reasons, we have no support from TSP's 3.5 who in fact use TSP's pigLeTs and nukes to contain us.

Please, there is absolutely no comparison between India's cowardice or lack of wherewithal to take on TSP, which we masquerade through WKKism or Chankyanism (take your pick), and USA/China using TSP for their objectives. And finally, USA/China do an equal equal between India & TSP and humiliate India, can India do an equal equal between US & TSP or China & TSP, if as you claim India, USA, and China are on the same pedestal in the travails they face from TSP?

[JE Menon]

>>A senior Israeli diplomat posted in Delhi says that Indian intelligence is one of the finest in the world.

While this might be a feel-good pat on the back for some, the fact of the matter is that there is no way such a claim can be made about Indian intelligence. As far as is evident, and the Indian press are no slouches when it comes to reportage on these matters, our agencies are plagued with ineptitude, lack of enthusiasm, nepotism, left hand not knowing what the right hand doing, and an inability to find one's own arse in the dark with both hands. Poor co-ordination, sub-par technological deployments, ineffectual training on new and breaking technologies, etc, etc... The list is long and painful. There is no way in the world our intelligence agencies can be labelled as among the finest in the world. Straw in the wind assessment by any reasonably well informed individual would put them well below the average of the top 20 in all the key criteria - sigint, humint, techint, etc... There is no need to run to town with the above quote, and absolutely no need to spread it around social networks etc. Utterly counter-productive, and potentially expensive.

[gakakkad]

^^^ It would be In the top 20 however. Not because it is highly competent. But because fewer than 20 important countries need a great intel agency. It is surely much better than ISI .

[A_Gupta]

For too many years I have heard people (primarily patriotic Indians, supported by Pakis) say

"India weak. India coward. India stupid. If it was the US they would do haaah hooh and the other. And China? Hah Pakistan wouldn't dare"

I'll be totally off-topic here, but will address the above point.

You couldn't have avoided hearing of the US Federal Govt's financial problems. The fact is that the US suffers from a Pakistan-like problem, where the upper crust doesn't pay much tax (and almost all the gains of economic growth go to them). In short, the US Govt. has a revenue problem. Yet the Republican controlled House of Representatives is utterly against raising revenue, even if it means the US defaults on its debt, the dollar loses its status as the reserve currency, etc. Now Obama probably could not have won this fight. But as Paul Krugman noted:

Am I the only one to notice that Obama no longer even talks about revenue increases? Instead he says “tax reform”, which could mean lower rates and no revenue.

Complete intellectual surrender.

Not India, not USA, not China can cure the problem of Pakistan. But which one of them will surrender intellectually? There is no assurance that India will not cave in, and that is why patriotic Indians see India as weak.

Pakistan, US deficit, etc., - these are all long-term problems; there will be many battles before the final denouement. Even after losing a battle and while licking one's wounds, one needs to uphold one's position.

PS: someone or other will dispute the economic facts I have outlined above; I will not respond to them. The issue is - is India prone to intellectual surrender, and why do Indians tend to think so?

[shiv]

US & China know TSP perfidy well. They don't suck up to TSP, they use them.

Use them? That is unadulterated tripe

Tell me another one! It's all showing through now. The US couldn't control TSP while paying billions and now can't afford to pay and we have "experts" imagining that control is magically going to get better. And China! The less said the better. Their goddam ports are only 10 meters deep. They get one deep water port in Pakistan and back out because its too insecure. By all means rant about India, but please don't try and lecture me about the US and China trying to pass off strategic sucking up as "strategic control" That bullshit has been pushed for far too long and is showing up its value right now as I type. And I am enjoying every minute of it.

[gakakkad]

>>>Please, there is absolutely no comparison between India's cowardice or lack of wherewithal to take on TSP, which we masquerade through WKKism or Chankyanism (take your pick), and USA/China using TSP for their objectives. And finally, USA/China do an equal equal between India & TSP and humiliate India, can India do an equal equal between US & TSP or China & TSP, if as you claim India, USA, and China are on the same pedestal in the travails they face from TSP?

If 3.5 had a complete hold on TSP 9/11 would never have happened. OBL would not have lived next to isloo for a decade. Uighurs would not have slaughtered whatever number of Hans they slaughter. American super competence is as much a myth as SDRE incompetence. US has an array of comptetent professionals. But it too has equally lousy mediocre people in all sphere including intelligence . (I can cite several examples from medicine - The only case of abdominal aorta perforation during angioplasty that I have seen is from the US. And the doc failed to realise this till it was too late. Trust me this is a sign of gross incompetence . Not an innocent error. The CIA surely has such buffoons ). US has made huge number of errors w.r.t foreign policy. The mess it made in Iran in late seventies. etc. It is not infallible.
Reason why people once did == wrt to indo-pak is because we ourselves did so. India can do China== tsp. We do so all the time on BR. India has made gigantic disasters w.r.t foreign policy . No denying that. But it is not the only one.

[shiv]

The issue is - is India prone to intellectual surrender, and why do Indians tend to think so?

Guptaji I have no beef with you. Yours posts are 99% sensible. But I must point out that you are now talking about "intellectual surrender". And this from a nation that was, till yesterday supposed to give up land to Pakistan in the considered judgement of the "We must be bold" experts! That is a huge come down.

India is part pale green Islamist nation and part pale pink socialist country with blotches of other hues. That is how India behaves. "weak" "strong" etc are only relative to the viewpoint one has as an Indian. If you are protecting Hinduism in America, India's behavior is hardly inspiring. But change your hue and change your place of residence and everything looks different. If you can survive from day to day without a terrorist attack - that is a victory. You send your son for education to a town where many attacks have occurred - and you pray that your son does not get hit. "Being bold" with Pakistan is not what you want. What you want is peace. Pakistan has India by the balls and peace comes partially and at a high price. That is described as cowardice or intellectual surrender? Heck who cares?

And when I think about the shortcuts and compromises India has made to avoid terror from Pakistan and am old that Pakistan has won I can live with that. And I can see this winning Pakistan now playing with its main sponsors the US and China. And I can empathise with some mother of some GI in the US who worries that her son is going to AfPak. She does not want boldness from the US. She wants her son in one piece.

Funny isn't it? I live in a country that has lost to Pakistan and is displaying cowardice and intellectual surrender and I am worried about Pakistan. And that unnamed woman lives in a great country which I am hilariously told is "using" Pakistan and she too feels like I do. I'm not sure what "using Pakistan" or "cowardice" is any more. I don't even know what "intellectual surrender" means. But I know Pakistan is winning.

[A_Gupta]

The issue is - is India prone to intellectual surrender, and why do Indians tend to think so?

Guptaji I have no beef with you. Yours posts are 99% sensible. But I must point out that you are now talking about "intellectual surrender". And this from a nation that was, till yesterday supposed to give up land to Pakistan in the considered judgement of the "We must be bold" experts! That is a huge come down.

Which experts are those?

India is part pale green Islamist nation and part pale pink socialist country with blotches of other hues. That is how India behaves. "weak" "strong" etc are only relative to the viewpoint one has as an Indian. If you are protecting Hinduism in America, India's behavior is hardly inspiring. But change your hue and change your place of residence and everything looks different. If you can survive from day to day without a terrorist attack - that is a victory. You send you son for education to a town where many attacks have occurred - and you pray that your son does not get hit. "Being bold" with Pakistan is not what you want. What you want is peace. Pakistan has India by the balls and peace comes partially and at a high price. That is described as cowardice or intellectual surrender? Heck who cares?

Somewhat of an overestimate of Pakistan, no? In any case, aren't your worries more about traffic, local criminals, student politician goondas, naxalites (if in that area), than Pakistani terror attacks? Then the more mundane things about quality of food and water? And then all the distractions and vices a young man may fall into? Or is it really attacks by Pakistan?

And when I think about the shortcuts and compromises India has made to avoid terror from Pakistan and am old that Pakistan has won I can live with that. And I can see this winning Pakistan now playing with its main sponsors the US and China. And I can empathise with some mother of some GI in the US who worries that her son is going to AfPak. She does not want boldness from the US. She wants her son in one piece.

Funny isn't it? I live in a country that has lost to Pakistan and is displaying cowardice and intellectual surrender and I am worried about Pakistan. And that unnamed woman lives in a great country which I am hilariously told is "using" Pakistan and she too feels like I do. I'm not sure what "using Pakistan" or "cowardice" is any more. I don't even know what "intellectual surrender" means. But I know Pakistan is winning.

The simplest example of an intellectual surrender is to accept the Pakistan narrative because it makes for peace, etc., without considering whether it is consistent with the truth, or at least truth that is relevant to you.

[shiv]

The simplest example of an intellectual surrender is to accept the Pakistan narrative because it makes for peace, etc., without considering whether it is consistent with the truth, or at least truth that is relevant to you.

Arun all this truth business is utter tripe. We are not interested in discussing the truth here.

Here is what you said:

In any case, aren't your worries more about traffic, local criminals, student politician goondas, naxalites (if in that area), than Pakistani terror attacks? Then the more mundane things about quality of food and water? And then all the distractions and vices a young man may fall into? Or is it really attacks by Pakistan?

I have many more concerns than you have mentioned. You have reduced Pakistan to a minor footnote among the concerns that an Indian resident in India might have. But at least you are beginning to show a glimmer of understanding that Pakistan does not matter that much to Indians. Given the choice between retaking PoK and making sure Karnataka is corruption free, I would choose the latter. Like many others I have bought land in India only to have it grabbed by the land mafia supported by politicians. Pakistanis is a problem that is being handled by Indians like thousands of other problems. The Indian in India has to depend on the same politician to make policies to protect him from Pakistan as the one who is looting all the wealth possible. And I am being told that I have surrendered to Pakistan? That is as delusional as anything can get.

Pakistan is so low down on the priority of the average Indian that it is a good thing we just have this thread focused on Pakistan. if we had no such thread, Pakistan would not get discussed among India's problems. It is only on an obsessive thread such as this one that we can talk idiotic and far fetched things like "Pakistan's victory", "Indian cowardice wrt Pakistan" and India's intellectual; surrender" to Pakistan. All this is in fact pretty much time pass stuff. In terms of real impact on me personally, in India, you tell me Pakistan has won? I say OK, fine. You tell me Indians are cowards and I say "OK fine. So Indians are cowards". You tell me there is intellectual surrender? I say OK fine we have surrendered to Pakistan.

It takes a huge effort to get Indians interested in Pakistan, given that their focus les on their other problems. Pakistan has viciously attacked India for decades and still they have not managed to make a deep enough dent in the worries of the average Indian to consume his passion.

It has been so long since I stated my own purpose for actually taking part in this thread that I think I need to do it again. Pakistan ranks really low on the list of things that bother Indians. In my view Pakistan needs more attention and there needs to be more awareness of Pakistan among Indians. My purpose on this thread for the last decade has been solely to inform myself about Pakistan with a view to informing other Indians so that they can make an informed judgement about how high in their list of priorities they can put Pakistan. I think BRF and world events have fulfilled my own desire to a fair extent. Pakistan still does not have a large presence in the Indian mind, but it is a lot better. Pakistan will have to nuke India to get India's attention. Unless Pakistan uses those nukes Indians will not give a damn about Pakistan. It is perfectly true to say that Indians have far faar many more things to think about than Pakistan. Whether anyone calls that victory or defeat or intellectual surrender - most indians don't give a flying fuk.

[RamaY]

Funny innit?

If Indians want to suck up to Pakistan, they are cowardly WKKs

If Chinese and US suck up to Pakistan it is called great power games. I tell ya! This is called "strategic, nationalistic thought!" Bulldung is what it is.

It isn't funny, it is too much psycho-anal-sys!

Unkil and PRC are "using" pak to hurt India and paying for those services in terms of jijya and IT-exports.

On the other hand, our dhimmi-WKKs are getting paid by TSP for doing Pak's bidding in India.

Docji is playing Sakuni, not Chanakya.

[atma]

A deadly weekend attack in China's restive Xinjiang region was masterminded by "terrorists" trained in Pakistan, the local government said Monday

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2011080 ... government

[RamaY]

It has been so long since I stated my own purpose for actually taking part in this thread that I think I need to do it again. Pakistan ranks really low on the list of things that bother Indians. In my view Pakistan needs more attention and there needs to be more awareness of Pakistan among Indians. My purpose on this thread for the last decade has been solely to inform myself about Pakistan with a view to informing other Indians so that they can make an informed judgement about how high in their list of priorities they can put Pakistan. I think BRF and world events have fulfilled my own desire to a fair extent. Pakistan still does not have a large presence in the Indian mind, but it is a lot better. Pakistan will have to nuke India to get India's attention. Unless Pakistan uses those nukes Indians will not give a damn about Pakistan. It is perfectly true to say that Indians have far faar many more things to think about than Pakistan. Whether anyone calls that victory or defeat or intellectual surrender - most indians don't give a flying fuk.

This is very good.

But the issue here is how the so-called intellectuals/elites in India are behaving. The role of the ruling elite and intellectuals is to make the public aware of their national interests without having to get a paki-nuke land amidst them. Are they doing anything to raise the awareness of Pakistan in Indian mind? No! Instead they are underplaying that threat even after repeated terror attacks. That is what we are call WKKism.

[CRamS]

Funny innit?

If Indians want to suck up to Pakistan, they are cowardly WKKs

If Chinese and US suck up to Pakistan it is called great power games. I tell ya! This is called "strategic, nationalistic thought!" Bulldung is what it is.

It isn't funny, it is too much psycho-anal-sys!

Unkil and PRC are "using" pak to hurt India and paying for those services in terms of jijya and IT-exports.

On the other hand, our dhimmi-WKKs are getting paid by TSP for doing Pak's bidding in India.

Docji is playing Sakuni, not Chanakya.

Succinctly put. I empathize with DocJi though. As a self respecting Indian, he is putting a Chanakyan spin and/or justifying WKK cowardice by drawing a self satisfying equivalence between India's helpless surrender like approach to TSP and USA/China making TSP twiddle on their palms.

[shiv]

But the issue here is how the so-called intellectuals/elites in India are behaving. The role of the ruling elite and intellectuals is to make the public aware of their national interests without having to get a paki-nuke land amidst them. Are they doing anything to raise the awareness of Pakistan in Indian mind? No! Instead they are underplaying that threat even after repeated terror attacks. That is what we are call WKKism.

As I see it intellectuals in India will die laughing if people insist, as many do on here that India "has lost" or "is losing" or that india should behave like the US or China. If anyone's purpose is to try and make the Indian intellectual elite see Pakistan differently I think the approach will have to be different. Many of those "intellectuals" are discussed here because of their articles - but I actually meet the same class of people and do not believe that they represent a very large proportion of Indians.

But whatever their proportion they cannot be made to be "afraid " that Pakistan is winning and equally they cannot be made to be take Pakistani nuclear weapons lightly. There are solid arguments to say that they are right on both counts and if people insist that India is losing, then there should be some non ROTFL evidence of that, and if there is a desire to convince people that India should not be bothered about Pakistani nukes and be "bold and non cowardly". then there should be some non ROTFL argument to support such a view. If there is any evidence to support the contention that the US or China are notching up great successes in moulding Pakistan, there should be something to show that they are doing that - something that goes beyond ROTFL rhetoric. If there is any serious argument that both India and Pakistan (IndiaPakistan) have not been at the receiving end of US perfidy that argument needs to be made.

After all, if both India and Pakistan have had a relationship with the US that has been detrimental to both nations, it means the US has "used" both India and Pakistan. That means that India and Pakistan would stand to gain by jointly opposing the US on a common IndiaPakistan front rather than India blindly fighting Pakistan.

The equal equal arguments, disgusting as they may be, need to be countered by sensible and logical arguments that make people see light rather than piss them off or launch them into uncontrollable ROTFL from illogical fallacies. If the most powerful arguments made on BRF are that Pakistan is winning, India is losing and that the US is winning or that India must act like the US - the ROTFL will never stop.

[A_Gupta]

I have many more concerns than you have mentioned. You have reduced Pakistan to a minor footnote among the concerns that an Indian resident in India might have. But at least you are beginning to show a glimmer of understanding that Pakistan does not matter that much to Indians.

Was always aware of that.

Given the choice between retaking PoK and making sure Karnataka is corruption free, I would choose the latter.

Good choice. It will eventually make retaking PoK a breeze

Pakistan is so low down on the priority of the average Indian that it is a good thing we just have this thread focused on Pakistan. if we had no such thread, Pakistan would not get discussed among India's problems. It is only on an obsessive thread such as this one that we can talk idiotic and far fetched things like "Pakistan's victory", "Indian cowardice wrt Pakistan" and India's intellectual; surrender" to Pakistan. All this is in fact pretty much time pass stuff. In terms of real impact on me personally, in India, you tell me Pakistan has won? I say OK, fine. You tell me Indians are cowards and I say "OK fine. So Indians are cowards". You tell me there is intellectual surrender? I say OK fine we have surrendered to Pakistan.

Isn't it so for most everyone?

It takes a huge effort to get Indians interested in Pakistan, given that their focus les on their other problems. Pakistan has viciously attacked India for decades and still they have not managed to make a deep enough dent in the worries of the average Indian to consume his passion.

On the other hand, if the subject of Pakistan does come up, the attitude has gone from amused indifference to a sort of hatred.

It has been so long since I stated my own purpose for actually taking part in this thread that I think I need to do it again. Pakistan ranks really low on the list of things that bother Indians. In my view Pakistan needs more attention and there needs to be more awareness of Pakistan among Indians. My purpose on this thread for the last decade has been solely to inform myself about Pakistan with a view to informing other Indians so that they can make an informed judgement about how high in their list of priorities they can put Pakistan. I think BRF and world events have fulfilled my own desire to a fair extent. Pakistan still does not have a large presence in the Indian mind, but it is a lot better. Pakistan will have to nuke India to get India's attention. Unless Pakistan uses those nukes Indians will not give a damn about Pakistan. It is perfectly true to say that Indians have far faar many more things to think about than Pakistan. Whether anyone calls that victory or defeat or intellectual surrender - most indians don't give a flying fuk.

It really should not be the job of most Indians to think about most problems. The whole point about living in a society is that some people specialize in each problem and are tasked to manage it.

The one issue that all Indians do have to be responsible for is - whether the people tasked to manage a problem and solve or alleviate it are delivering as desired. The normal relationship is one of trust and minimal oversight. It is assumed that people have a vision of a common good for India and will in general work towards it (apart from all the bureaucratic infighting and political power plays for self-aggrandizing and all that that any group of humans indulges in). Oversight is expensive, and the cost of erosion of trust is enormous.

Should Indians worry about that w.r.t. Indian policy towards Pakistan?

[shiv]

Succinctly put. I empathize with DocJi though. As a self respecting Indian, he is putting a Chanakyan spin and/or justifying WKK cowardice by drawing a self satisfying equivalence between India's helpless surrender like approach to TSP and USA/China making TSP twiddle on their palms.

Well constant repetition is one way of trying to make people understand your viewpoint, but the more far fetched it is, the greater the ROTFL it causes among the WKKs. I can understand the angst you might feel for provoking mirth rather than the respect you crave for among among the WKKs you despise, but the desperate repetition of your views just doesn't make the cut. No one feels shame at accusations of cowardice. I am sure you can explain that to your countrymen when they laughingly point that out to you given that you're not so bad at piskology yourself.

[A_Gupta]

There are solid arguments to say that they are right on both counts and if people insist that India is losing, then there should be some non ROTFL evidence of that, and if there is a desire to convince people that India should not be bothered about Pakistani nukes and be "bold and non cowardly". then there should be some non ROTFL argument to support such a view. If there is any evidence to support the contention that the US or China are notching up great successes in moulding Pakistan, there should be something to show that they are doing that - something that goes beyond ROTFL rhetoric. If there is any serious argument that both India and Pakistan (IndiaPakistan) have not been at the receiving end of US perfidy that argument needs to be made.

So, one diagnosis would be that some people are painting the unachievability of unrealistic expectations as a weakness? The recognition of reality as cowardice? That too is an intellectual surrender.

[SwamyG]

If Pakistan was stable, then the powers running it won't be eager to piss of China. Right now Pakistan is handling US, India & Afghanistan border. Forget for the moment, Pakibunnis, Balochs ityadi. So I would assume, a sane Pakistan would not chose this moment to anger China. What is the point in opening another impossible front to defend or even attack? Does this mean, the power center is just losing its grips a little more? India, as part of NAM, kept USSR and USA at arm's distance; but never went on such pissing spree. Any country with so many calculations is probably going to miscalculate couple of equations. Pakistan clearly defies rationale. It is a magical country running on madrassa logic.

Added: Shiv saar, I always wondered about you and this thread. Now it makes great sense. You have a flair for words and truly a good thinker and artist. Bah...you must have heard this million times, before. Even from me couple of times.

[CRamS]

DocJi, lets agree to disagree. What I see is a slow motion surrender by India. And if majority of Indians like it or don't give a s**it, so be it.

[shiv]

Should Indians worry about that w.r.t. Indian policy towards Pakistan?

It does not seem to cause worry. But machismo aside I do not get the sense that most thinking/informed people want war with a nuclear armed Pakistan. People are afraid of nuclear war and people are afraid of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. This is a rational thought process. Oh yes there are people who say "Pakistan should be nuked out of existence" - in fact one might say an alarmingly large number of people who say that Pakistan should be nuked. But to me it is not clear if they are being serious. I am personally of the opinion that nuclear war is best avoided but choose not to argue with those who speak of nuclear war.

Having said that - only terrorism makes people think about Pakistan. if there was no terrorism the Pakistan subject would be forgotten completely. Perceptions about Pakistan have changed visibly over the past decade. Even as the US successfully equated India and Pakistan over the decades, Indians themselves somehow punched below their weight and accepted that they are somehow Pakistan's equal or inferior. This image of course was desperately pushed by Pakistan that sought "equality" for India in all counts. It was never disputed by India. I think Indian governments were not bothered enough by this game and did not think it necessary to stretch and prove Indian superiority.

A lot of Indians grew up accepting a sort of equivalence between India and Pakistan. It was supported by the media in armed forces size and strength comparisons and in the ready description of IndiaPakistan as "arch rivals" in cricket and in the silly walking at Wagah. In retrospect it seems to me that the lack of Indian self image as a country far bigger and more capable than Pakistan is an example of Indian mediocrity and small mindedness. India is modest and mediocre on many counts and this is just one example. Indian mediocrity and lack of a realistic self image or meaningful self respect cleared the way for equating with Pakistan, which, while being as mediocre (or worse) than India -Pakistan at least had self respect and a positive image of themselves.

Indians IMO are a people with a mediocre mindset that will take a long time to rise above Pakistan. We are prone to admiring what need not be admired and deriding ourselves in comparison. But this is a national piskological characteristic that requires piskotherapy for Indians in the same way as Pakistan the nation needs a different type of piskotherapy.

For Indians to think about Pakistan as a separate, problem Islamist nation - Indians as a people need to grow and become aware of the world in a manner that Europeans an Americans became aware a century and more ago. We are not there yet. Cursing and mocking is of no use. It only shows anger and disbelief that India is so backward in terms of self image as a sovereign nation. Which it is. Most Indians, including intellectuals and leaders don't even realise that India can be a country that can be a force to reckon with in the world. Until that awareness is created - all thought about Pakistan will be disjointed and dysfunctional. Those of us who feel we understand better must guide the nation. But mocking those who are dumb is a mistake. It won't win support even if the cause is just and truthful.

[Dipanker]

I don't believe that Pakis would or are using the Uighur terrorists as some sort of leverage against China to extract jizziya. These Uighur terrorists have mind of their own and they have their own agenda. Pakis have routinely captured these terrorists and faithfully handed them over at Chinese demands.

[sanjaykumar]

In the context of terrorism, India needs to understand that militants are well-organised from Somalia to Afghanistan and from Central Asian Republics to the Occupied Kashmir. International security analysts are already predicting that India is on the brink of becoming a battle ground of these trans-national groups. Outreach of these elements is much broader than Pakistan’s logical capacity to handle them; even America is unable to contain them. Pakistan has already proposed setting up of SAARC police for pooling up regional resources for this purpose.

America-Pakistan-India triangle
Air Cdre Khalid Iqbal (R) http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=106420

Here is a Paki beggar threatening India with the bhooka nanga brigade. Life will be dull once these Pakis are exterminated.

[Dipanker]

In the context of terrorism, India needs to understand that militants are well-organised from Somalia to Afghanistan and from Central Asian Republics to the Occupied Kashmir. International security analysts are already predicting that India is on the brink of becoming a battle ground of these trans-national groups. Outreach of these elements is much broader than Pakistan’s logical capacity to handle them; even America is unable to contain them. Pakistan has already proposed setting up of SAARC police for pooling up regional resources for this purpose.

America-Pakistan-India triangle
Air Cdre Khalid Iqbal (R) http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=106420

Here is a Paki beggar threatening India with the bhooka nanga brigade. Life will be dull once these Pakis are exterminated.

No kidding!

[Y. Kanan]

If 3.5 had a complete hold on TSP 9/11 would never have happened.

How do you know the US ruling establishment didn't want 9/11 to happen? Much of the Republican G.W. Bush administration's actions before 9/11 indicate an almost puposeful strategy of opening the door for Al-Queda to strike successfully in the United States. The way the US responded to 9/11 (doing the bare minimum in Afghanistan and then fabricating reasons to invade Iraq) certainly gives credence to the idea. Seriously, there is much reason to believe that the Bush & co. wanted a terrorist strike on the US mainland to give them a blank cheque to wage oil wars on Iraq & Iran, and that they never had any interest in tackling the Af-Pak problem.

Indeed, the US didn't appear to get even remotely serious about Afghanistan & Pakistan until after Obama got elected...

[KLNMurthy]

One question to consider is whether concerns about "intellectual surrender" are nothing more than expressions of injured vanity by those insulated from "harder" realities, or whether there is also a social and personal development cost that results from the psychological impact of too much compromise made for the wrong reasons.

I think these matters are not always pure pak and na-pak. We should probably ask ourselves what impact thoughtlessly giving into pakiness will have on the mindset of millions of young Indians who are starting to develop belief in their own talent and hard work.

Added after seeing shiv's note on Indian psychology: indian psychology leads to "surrender" wrt pak as shiv said but it also cuts the other way: "surrender" reinforces the pathological psychology in question and makes it harder to break out. Bhramara-kitaka nyayam onlee.

[svinayak]

A lot of Indians grew up accepting a sort of equivalence between India and Pakistan. It was supported by the media in armed forces size and strength comparisons and in the ready description of IndiaPakistan as "arch rivals" in cricket and in the silly walking at Wagah. In retrospect it seems to me that the lack of Indian self image as a country far bigger and more capable than Pakistan is an example of Indian mediocrity and small mindedness. India is modest and mediocre on many counts and this is just one example. Indian mediocrity and lack of a realistic self image or meaningful self respect cleared the way for equating with Pakistan, which, while being as mediocre (or worse) than India -Pakistan at least had self respect and a positive image of themselves.
.

This is the biggest social engineering which the British did on the Indians right from 1947 by acceding to the demands of ML. That is the reason for CRA Khan to come up with the idea of DINIA.
The myth of superiority of the Muslim nation is created and then destroy the old establishment.
As some narratives say the name of Pakistan caught the imagination and even the foreign newspapers began to call the proposed country by this name




Chaudhry Rahmat Ali was the man who gave Pakistan its name in a booklet "Now or Never" which he wrote and published on January 28, 1933. 'P' of Punjab, "A" of Afghani border(i.e. N.W.F.P.), 'K' of Kashmir, 'S' of Sindh, and 'tan' of Baluchistan were put together to name the still-to-be-created homeland of the Indian Muslims. this name soon caught the imagination of the multitudes and even the foreign newspapers began to call the proposed country by this name.
http://www.brain.net.pk/~wisetech/50/history/index.html
http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/dinia.htm

How to Destroy the Myth and Establish the Truth?

In view of the newness and magnitude of this dynamic choice, the comradely spirits among the nations concerned may well ask how to put it into effect.

I shall answer this question here and show that its implementation depends ultimately on the true realization and propagation by us all of two supreme facts. For, more effectively than anything else, it is our own realization and propagation of these facts that will explode the Myth, establish the truth, and thereby inspire all to work for the repudiation of the Myth and for the recognition of the truth by the Caste Hindoos, by the British, and by the world.

A lot of Indians grew up accepting a sort of equivalence

There was no need for Indians to accept it but the stakes were not in the hands of the Indians. The idea of India, the image of Indians and Hindus have been propagated only by the British in the last 200 years. The British version has been the dominant one and they control the equivalence of India.

[svinayak]

For Indians to think about Pakistan as a separate, problem Islamist nation - Indians as a people need to grow and become aware of the world in a manner that Europeans an Americans became aware a century and more ago. We are not there yet. Cursing and mocking is of no use. It only shows anger and disbelief that India is so backward in terms of self image as a sovereign nation. Which it is. Most Indians, including intellectuals and leaders don't even realise that India can be a country that can be a force to reckon with in the world. Until that awareness is created - all thought about Pakistan will be disjointed and dysfunctional. Those of us who feel we understand better must guide the nation. But mocking those who are dumb is a mistake. It won't win support even if the cause is just and truthful.

Indians have been deliberately fed false information about the world and have been segregated away from the world for the last 200 years by the colonial powers. Indians are like the guinea test creatures and have been under mind control for the last century. Indians have been the lemmings and been led by an elite who are colonized version of the west.

[RajeshA]

only terrorism makes people think about Pakistan. if there was no terrorism the Pakistan subject would be forgotten completely.

Most Indians would be happy if the terrorists on India's most wanted list would somehow die violently. India does not need to take responsibility or even make any threats towards Pakistan.

This is the minimum satisfaction GoI should offer the Indian citizens, especially if GoI is not serious about getting rid of Pakistan.

[svinayak]

Not sure if this should be posted here or in the internal security thread..maybe I'll X post it there as well. Highly relevant.

Spy wars
A massive sexual offensive against India is being planned by the ISI, according to Indian intelligence in Kashmir. Around 900-odd women spies are being trained by ISI, to “honeytrap” important Indian establishment figures. Punjab and Kashmir police are keeping a lookout for the Pakistani Pussy Galores crossing the border.

Can they use such words in social magazines and publications

[CRamS]

Between slow-motion surrender and then spinning it as some kind of Chanakyan ploy as we are seeing currently, and outright nuke war, India for its size and power ought to exercise some tough diplomatic options wrt TSP. Thats my point.

[saip]

I was just checking Visa to Hong Kong and noticed while SDREs don't need visa the unwashed abduls from our friendly neighbor do. Whatever happened to the taller than mountain and deeper than ocean friendship?