Eastern Europe/Ukraine

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 23 Jul 2014 08:48

^^^

Apparently that cargo of toxic/corrosive chemicals was destined for chennai,India
http://anilnetto.com/governance/account ... lane-2000/

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 09:00

'We will react to NATO build-up!': Key Putin quotes from defense policy address

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 09:01

U.S. discloses intelligence on downing of Malaysian jet

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Jul 2014 09:16

Austin wrote:U.S. discloses intelligence on downing of Malaysian jet

The evidence on show by the US is nothing conclusive but a general build up on their case without any definite pointers. The rest of their statements are mere speculation. The following is very revealing on where the spies look for 'intelligence':

The briefing also revealed the extent to which U.S. spy agencies are relying on Twitter, Facebook and other social-media sites to monitor the conflict.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 09:46

^^ For the Western Media such reports by US Intelligence are Gospel Truth not to be challenged but taken at face value.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 09:47

Russia hands over to EU MH-17-related data from its defence ministry

“We handed these date on Tuesday as soon as we had written reports in Russia and English,” Russian Permanent Representative at the European Union Vladimir Chizhov said

BRUSSELS, July 23, 6:29 /ITAR-TASS/. Russia handed over to the European Union on Tuesday all data from its defence ministry related to the crash of a Malaysian passenger airliner in eastern Ukraine, Russian Permanent Representative at the European Union Vladimir Chizhov said on Wednesday.

“We handed these date on Tuesday as soon as we had written reports in Russia and English,” he told Russian journalists. “We sent them to all those concerned.” However, according to Chizhov, “there is no response” from the European Union so far.

“Reaction came only from the United States and was quite predictable - they said they doubted Russian data,” he said. “They do have the right to that, but id they have any doubts they should have produced some evidence and they have not done this as of yet saying it was intelligence information that can discredit their sources, and so on.”

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 airliner (flight MH17) en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed in the area of combat operations between local militias and Ukrainian governmental troops in east Ukraine’s Donetsk region on Thursday, July 17. All 298 people aboard the plane, including 193 Dutch nationals, died in the crash.

The Russian diplomat noted that the United States was once in the epicenter of a similar scandal, when its Vincennes warship downed an Iranian airliner by a guided missile in 1988. Chizhov recalled the then U.S. President, George Bush Sr., saying after the incident, “I will never apologize for the United States - I don't care what the facts are

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 09:59

China’s Response to the MH17 Tragedy? Condemn the West

On July 18, shortly after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crashed over eastern Ukraine, extinguishing 298 lives, China’s Xinhua state news agency cautioned against making snap judgments. The U.S. and other Western nations had begun to finger pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine for shooting down the Boeing 777 passenger plane, but Xinhua dismissed such accusations as “rash” and took the opportunity to swipe at Western democracies for their condemnation of Russia’s earlier military intervention in Ukraine:

The one-sided accusation is not surprising in light of their long-time stance on the crisis in eastern Ukraine, and their attitude towards Russia’s absorption of Crimea in March. But without convincing evidence, jumping to a conclusion will only heighten regional tension and is not conducive to finding out the truth.

Russian President Vladimir Putin late Thursday said it is Ukraine that bears the responsibility as the tragedy occurred over its territory. The tragedy, Putin said, could have been avoided should Ukraine’s eastern regions be in peace.

On July 21, the People’s Daily, the Chinese Communist Party’s mouthpiece, ran a piece still cautioning that “no proof has been found so far to clarify the cause or identify the perpetrator.” Nowhere did the story mention the likelihood that pro-Russian rebels had trained a missile on MH17 as it flew from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

The same day, the Global Times, a Chinese Communist Party-linked daily that can be counted on for nationalist commentary, did at least mention such a possibility — if only to decry Western governments’ speculation that Russia may have aided and abetted the rebels’ cause:

The Western rush to judge Russia is not based on evidence or logic. Russia had no motive to bring down MH17; doing so would only narrow its political and moral space to operate in the Ukrainian crisis. The tragedy has no political benefit for Ukrainian rebel forces, either. Russia has been back-footed, forced into a passive stance by Western reaction. It is yet another example of the power of Western opinion as a political tool.

The crisis in Ukraine had already put China in a difficult position. Despite memories of decades of Cold War frostiness, Beijing has boosted its ties with Moscow. The two neighbors share an antipathy toward Western democratic values and a mutual interest in natural resources. The first foreign trip Xi Jinping made as President was to Russia in March 2013.

Yet China also proclaims that one of its foreign-policy bedrocks is staying out of other nations’ internal affairs. Russia’s invasion of Crimea — which Xinhua delicately termed an “absorption” — cannot be considered as anything but a gross interference in Ukraine’s internal affairs. Beijing is struggling with separatist sentiment at home, most notably among Tibetan and Uighur populations in China’s far west. How can Chinese foreign-policy makers support an ethnic rebel movement over a national government, even if those separatists do have Russia’s tacit blessing?

China may soon have to reconcile this foreign-policy quandary. “It will bring about a severe challenge to China’s general strategy and diplomacy if America and Europe propose sanctions against Russia and demand China should join with them,” wrote Chinese security analyst Gao Feng in a widely disseminated blog post. “For China, the issue is which side it should choose. Without doubt, an ambiguous stance [by Beijing] will face criticism and moral pressure.”

There were no mainland Chinese nationals on MH17. By contrast, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, which vanished in March en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, was filled with Chinese passengers. As the Malaysian investigation into that plane’s disappearance foundered, Chinese authorities allowed MH370 families to stage protests in Beijing — a rarity in a nation allergic to public displays of dissent.

This time around, official Chinese sentiment has steered clear of blaming Malaysia for the Ukraine disaster. Instead, West-bashing has predominated. “The West has successfully put itself in a position to dictate ‘political correctness’ in international discourse,” said the Global Times editorial on MH17 on Monday. “Those unwilling to work with Western interests will often find themselves in a tough position.” Criticism of the West even extended beyond the tragedy of MH17. On July 21, Xinhua publicized a new campaign of “intense ideological education for officials to strengthen their faith in communism and curb corruption.” First on cadres’ to-do lists? Keeping a “firm belief in Marxism to avoid being lost in the clamor for western democracy.”

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 23 Jul 2014 10:02

Mort Walker ji,

You are making it sound like it is an issue regarding air travel safety. Certifications do not make a place safe. It is the other way round, that is if it ever comes to that.

And what is with this name calling of Pro-Russian militia. What have they done to India or Indian interests? Ukrainians behaved like a maoist possessed Nepal and if they think they can get away with it then let's see what Putin has to say on this.

The Russians have sent the bodies and the black box what more can they do.

....................

RE.

If the US says it detected a missile launch, they are to be TRUSTED ON THIS MATTER.

Please sir.

The US is incapable of detecting a SAM launch in the manner they do their isharebazzi.

Only slim chance with probability approaching 0 would be when they know when+where+what+how+why, exactly to look for/at/WT_. As in being the instigators/manipulators.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 23 Jul 2014 10:07

Mort Walker wrote: 2. The US may manipulate politics in Uk, but they can simply not cover up a calamity of this order. If the US says it detected a missile launch, they are to be TRUSTED ON THIS MATTER.

I am touched by your faith in the US government. I seem to recall a small matter where they spoke of incontrovertible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq with eloquence and conviction. Must have been true too, no?

The evidence will come out and it will point to the pro-Russian thug Cossacks.

`thug Cossacks'? Why bring the Cossacks into this? How are they connected? Or do you mean the word `Cossack' as an insult? Please do educate me about how Cossacks are thuggish, will you?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2014 10:27

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 4Q20140721

dutch recovery expert praises the work of local volunteers and workers who collected the bodies

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Jul 2014 11:09

only raw unaltered date from verifiable source is to be trusted when it comes from massa.

sure there is my own suspicion that russian supplied/trained donetsk militia could have done this, but massa word is not the clincher here.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jul 2014 11:26

"No evidence" of Russia's direct involvement",US!

Why the sudden about turn? Because Russia provided evidence showing that it was the Kiev junta that was responsible? The lasy few days of vituperative anti-Russian and anti-Putin garbage sprwed out of the mouths of turd rate Western politicians,like the new British Def. Min. who ordered Putin to "get out" of the Ukraine-as if it was his or HMG's private property,and "final warning" mouthings from CaMoron,now look ridiculous.As they say,the truth will out. It is now time for Russia and Pres. Putin to launch a diplomatic offensive against these entities which were behind the illegal coup that ousted pres.Yanukovych in the first place,bringing the Neo-Nazis into power.The British true to form have dusted off the assassination of low-level Russian defector Livinenko,who was in the pay of western intel agencies and anti-Russsian oligarchs,in their failed attempt to pin the blame on Putin.The pattern is very clear.The US and West want Russia to be led not by a strong ,decisive leader like Putin,but a drunken oaf like Yeltsin,who allowed oligarchs in tow with Western corporate raiders to steal Russia's crown jewels which Putin in large part succeeded in recovering for Mother Russia by successful legal actions against the thieves.That was an unpardonable sin for the crony capitalists of the West whow ere doing the very same in India thanks to Quisling Singh's venal and corrupt regime.

MH17: Rebels likely shot down plane 'by mistake' – live updates
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ve-updates
US says ‘no evidence of Russia’s direct involvement’
Eyewitnesses tell the Guardian of likely Buk system in Torez
EU foreign ministers line up new sanctions on Russians
International teams receive trains carrying bodies in Kharkiv
Heavy fighting roils on near Donetsk and Luhansk

Meanwhile the propaganda war continues.
Proof or propaganda? Ukraine claims to have photographic evidence rebels parked surface-to-air missile system in this quiet square

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 22025.html
Just look at British hypocrisy,massive sales of arms to er.....Russia!
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash exclusive: Massive rise in sale of British arms to Moscow
MPs condemn sharp increase in trade with Russia after missile attack on Flight MH17, while French President blasts 'hypocrite' Cameron as war of words erupts between London and Paris
Cahal Milmo
Wednesday 23 July 2014

he Government was last night accused of double standards over arms sales to Russia after it emerged that officials have approved a massive increase in weaponry to be sold to the country to more than £130m.

MPs warn today that at least 251 export licences for the sale of controlled goods - ranging from sniper rifles to night sights - remain in place despite a call from Prime Minister David Cameron for other countries, in particular France, to halt lucrative arms deals with Moscow.

Downing Street insisted that any arms licences granted for equipment to the Russian military had been suspended in the wake of the MH17 disaster after Mr Cameron singled out French President Francois Hollande’s refusal to call off a £1bn deal to sell Moscow two helicopter carriers.

The increasingly acrimonious war of words between London and Paris over sales of military hardware to Moscow deepened last night when the head of Mr Hollande’s Socialist ruling party called Mr Cameron a “hypocrite”.

A powerful select committee of MPs added to Downing Street discomfort over the issue by today calling on the Government to show “more cautious judgment” when approving exports to Russia after the value of licences rocketed by more than half in the last year from £86m to £131.5m.

The increase of 52 per cent in the last 12 months took place despite Britain’s increasingly strident criticism of Russian support - including the supply of arms - for Ukrainian separatists, who have now been blamed for the killing of 298 people on board flight MH17.

As the European Union last night announced it was considering targeting defence sales as part of widened sanctions against Moscow, Labour claimed the Conservative Party had also accepted donations worth more than £900,00 since 2007 from Russians with alleged links to the Russian government.

The exhaustive report by MPs on sales to 28 countries deemed by the Government to be “of human rights concern” found that Britain last year issued 285 separate licences for the sale of weaponry and controlled goods to Russia, including £1.6m of small arms ammunition, 38 sniper rifles, components for assault rifles and combat shotguns, and cryptography equipment worth £74m.

A five-year licence was also granted last year by Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) for the shipping of multiple military components, including missile components and launching technology, to Russian territory.

Officials in Business Secretary Vince Cable’s department last night insisted the licence applied to a contingency agreement to supply emergency spare parts to the Brazilian navy in 23 countries, including Russia, and no missile parts had been sent to Russia under the deal.

But MPs questioned whether there were enough checks in place to ensure that a long list of arms and weaponry approved for export to Russia reached its declared end user and said Britain needed to be significantly more circumspect about what it agreed to sell to authoritarian countries.

Sir John Stanley, chairman of the House of Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls (CAEC), said: “Our view is that there should be a more cautious approach. We have been appealing for a more considered approach to Russia for some time. I think many people would be wondering why the UK is giving export approval to the considerable number of items on that list?”

The senior Conservative MP said last night he would be writing to Mr Cameron for clarification on which further weaponry exports to Russia have now been banned amid criticism from anti-arms trade campaigners that Britain was only taking action because of the international outcry over the Malaysia Airlines atrocity.

Andrew Smith, from the Campaign Against Arms Trade, said: “All too often it takes a humanitarian catastrophe before the UK Government practices arms control. We welcome tighter regulation of the arms trade, but when the UK’s target markets include oppressive Governments, it doesn’t just give them military support, it also indicates political support.”

Former Foreign Secretary William Hague announced in March that it was suspending all licences existing licences and applications of military and dual-use equipment to Russia where it was or could be used against Ukraine.

Former Foreign Secretary William Hague (Getty Images) Former Foreign Secretary William Hague (Getty Images)
Sir John said this had resulted in the suspension of the “relatively small number” of just 34 of the 285 approved sales to Russia. The Government last night insisted that the “majority” of remaining export licences for Russia applied to items for “for commercial use”.

The annual report by the MPs, based on joint meetings of four separate Commons’ select committees, also accused Mr Cable of quietly dropping a longstanding plank of Britain’s arms export policy to make sales to oppressive regimes such as Russia easier.

The report found that the Government last year approved sales worth £11.9bn to 28 countries designated by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) as being “of human rights concern”, including £1.7bn each to Saudi Arabia and China. Sales to Israel, also named on the FCO list, were dominated by a single deal - worth £7.8bn - of cryptographic equipment and software to an unnamed customer in the country.

Since 2000, arms sales had been considered alongside criteria which states: “An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing so are outweighed by concern that the goods might be used for internal repression or international aggression”.

Nightvision goggles on display at the DSEI arms fair in London last year (Getty) Nightvision goggles on display at the DSEI arms fair in London last year (Getty)
Despite being omitted from stated Government criteria, BIS officials last night insisted the move did constitute a change of policy and safeguards remains in place.

But the MPs strongly criticised the move. Sir John said: “We don’t accept that there has been no change of policy. This is very important policy wording and it has been dropped.”

The MPs were also strongly critical of the current Government and its Labour predecessor for approving the sale of chemical weapon precursors to Syria despite the knowledge that the country’s regime was developing a nerve gas stockpile.

The report described the decision under Labour to grant five export licences for “dual-use” nerve gas ingredients between 2004 and 2010 as “highly questionable” and said the decision by the Coalition to grant to further licences in 2012 - after the civil war had started - as “irresponsible”.

A Government spokesperson said: “The UK aims to operate one of the most robust and transparent export control systems in the world. Every application is examined rigorously against internationally recognised criteria and particular attention is paid to human rights risks.”

Eastern promise: The Tories’ Russian donors

Alexander Temerko

A former vice-president of oil giant Yukos, Mr Temerko fled Russia and received UK citizenship after being charged with fraud. He is a director of Offshore Group Newcastle, who specialise in offshore wind, and gas and oil platforms. He has personally donated around £259,230 to the Conservative Party since 2012. OGN has also donated £185,325 to the Tories.

Lubov and Vladimir Chernukhin

Lubov Chernukhin paid £160,000 at the most recent Tory summer ball for a game of tennis with David Cameron. She is married to Vladimir Chernukhin, former deputy finance minister of Russia. Mr Chenhukhin is also a former director of Aeroflot, JCS Russian Agricultural Bank, Vnesheconombank, and Polyus Gold International Limited until April 2014.

New Century Media

Had a table at the Tory summer ball and have donated £91,000 to the Conservatives. The lobbying company has worked with organisations such as “Positive Russia” – which seeks to portray Vladimir Putin and Russia in a positive light, and invited Mr Putin’s judo partner Vasily Shestakov and billionaire Andrei Klyamko to the ball.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jul 2014 12:08

This is freaky.A CT website,quite entertaining,but these pics are intriguing.See them for yourselves.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 97698.html

Malaysia Airliner Missile Strike: Was it MH-17 or MH-370?
by Harold Saive

Of interest is a photo of the starboard section of a crashed Boeing-777-200 with alleged tail number 9M-MRDassigned to fly route MH-17.

Although another photograph shows “MRD” as prominent crash debris, this could be a likely “re-painted” attempt to show the world there should be no confusion between the missing airliner (MH-370) and the presumably “doomed” flight, MH-17.

“Michael Holmes of CNN shared an image on Twitter via his account @holmescnn of a section of what appears to be a Malaysia Airlines jetliner on a grassy field. The Malaysian flag is clearly depicted and the red and blue livery colours used by MAS are also shown.”

The source of the images, a man identifying himself as a tourist guide / traveller / photographer / former soldier from Slovenia, @MatevzNovak, has since posted more photos – taken by a Nadezhda Chernetskaya – of what he claims to be the crash site of Flight MH17 in Grabovo, Ukraine. (TRNS)

Photo taken at the crash site is evidence that aircraft designated as Flight MH-17 was not involved in the missile shoot-down.

The window configuration in the crash site does not match the Boeing-777-200 aircraft reported to be flying as MH-17 (9M-MRD). Instead the starboard fuselage section in the photograph more closely matches Flight MH-370 – the aircraft that is now known to be hijacked without a trace – until, perhaps now.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 23 Jul 2014 13:25

UK emerges key player, Malayasia sends black boxes to UK for examination

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 13:30

IndraD wrote:UK emerges key player, Malayasia sends black boxes to UK for examination

Key player has but hardly a unbiased one. Every one knows what UK position is.

Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Jul 2014 14:00

If the US says it detected a missile launch, they are to be TRUSTED ON THIS MATTER.

There are matters on which they are not to be trusted. Hmmmm. Bad. You don`t sound MUTU enough.

There is even more circumstantial evidence these thugs have used credit cards of the dead, stolen personal belongings, and tampered with evidence.

Really. But the Dutch who lost most people in this tragedy are praising the `thugs` for their handling. US seems to be having more khujli than anyone else. Of course you believe the US side of the story.

A "good" country would quickly recover the bodies and get the flight data recorders for analysis ASAP.

A good country will first decide who to blame for a human tragedy with in five minutes. Give `proofs` from twitter and facebook a week later.

The pro-Russian view in this thread is sickening like those in the US govt. who support the Pakis.

So why is there a pro-russian view at all. Our immunity from the charms of the US media is our bane.

.
Bring in the pakis. Win the argument.

My first reaction was also that the pro Russians had shot it down, but once you see the americans blaming them(within 5 minutes), you start doubting the whole thing.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 23 Jul 2014 14:15

http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offi ... 1406063846

US officials lay out case against Russians.

The officials pointed repeatedly to social media to bolster their case

The officials said they couldn't be certain when the SA-11 system was brought into eastern Ukraine.

The July 17 crash of Flight 17 confirmed the presence of the SA-11, the officials said.

A key goal of Tuesday's presentation was "not letting a Russian narrative get out there," said one senior U.S. intelligence official.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 23 Jul 2014 15:03

Frankly speaking, on social media, the mighty American media machine is not able to keep up. On some of the obvious inconsistencies in the US SD stance, Jen Psaki starts to sound almost like The Great Sanjay Jha, all glib but hollow due to the need of maintaining an untenable (with facts) party line. The regular press briefings are a gem. The kind of rigorous questions some of the journalists ask, most of our star journos are a pale comparison.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 23 Jul 2014 15:14

These Amerikhans are crazy. Where is the Russian narrative? All across the MSM its the Amerikhan narrative that is getting the airtime. Suddenly from last few days I am getting CNN for free in my locality. Just imagine the kind of attention Uttar Pradesh, Noida is getting from CNN. Almost embarrassing. Like going to a 5 star hotel in a dhoti-chappal. The SM is cited by the Amerikhans as the evidence for the truth of their claims. So that too is out.

Where is this so called Russian narrative. The only place it can be said to be present is this one solitary thread in this one obscure forum with almost all its members properly quarantined

. And it would be a disrespect to fellow members to even suggest that this Russian narrative is actually believable. Russians on the contrary have a perfect capability to turn even a truth into a CT and a valid CT into a laughable joke. Don't need to believe me, just read the ~~site linked by Phillip ji~~ pics by Austin ji (though even the site given by Phillip ji reads like a thriller novel).

The questions getting asked in places like BRF are only a small glimpse of what the scrutiny would be like in the actual court cases or among international military experts. If a the Amerikhan narrative feels threatened by the kind of fuccha level questions that are getting raised on these little known forums, then that would be even more laughable.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 23 Jul 2014 15:22

Ouch. this is very interesting. A classic read.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/ ... stems.html

A snippet from it:

Update: Moreover, former AP and Newsweek report Robert Parry reported last week:

I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.

According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility.

If true, then the U.S. might be grasping for way to explain the Ukrainian uniforms.

As Parry writes today:

That statement about a possible “defector” might explain why some analysts thought they saw soldiers in Ukrainian army uniforms tending to the missile battery in eastern Ukraine. But there is another obvious explanation that the U.S. intelligence community seems unwilling to accept: that the missile may have been launched by someone working for the Ukrainian military.

In other words, we may be seeing another case of the U.S. government “fixing the intelligence” around a desired policy outcome, as occurred in the run-up to war with Iraq.

Mmh

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 16:31

Good Read

Bogus photos of ‘Russian’ air-defense systems in Ukraine debunked by bloggers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2014 16:57

well atleast the paki P3 orions and haiders would be shit-scared of what our naval grizzly systems can do to them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jul 2014 16:59

ramana wrote: Austin has produced an image that SU-25 can be armed with Ato A missile.
Now the goal post is find a Ukranain Su25 armed with Ato A.
The corollary is if Georgia can do it can Ukraine which is more industrial power do it?

I was searching for Ukraine Su-25 armed with A2A missile

Came across this site which is Ukraine exporting agency Ukroboronservis which is mentioning A2A missile R-60 for Su-25 Armament ( at the bottom right of the image link below )

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/colonelc ... 1_1000.png

Also note that Su-25 has been tested with beam laser guidance missile for tail on aspect engagement for slow flying aircraft

At 50:53 shows a beam laser guidance missile taking out a Tu-16 in flight
http://youtu.be/czW605TWbdU

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 23 Jul 2014 17:54

Mort Walker wrote

1. It was a corridor used by several airlines. Not a good choice, but was cleared by ICAO and Eurocontrol nevertheless.
2. The US may manipulate politics in Uk, but they can simply not cover up a calamity of this order. If the US says it detected a missile launch, they are to be TRUSTED ON THIS MATTER. The evidence will come out and it will point to the pro-Russian thug Cossacks.
3. A "good" country would quickly recover the bodies and get the flight data recorders for analysis ASAP. It was a Boeing aircraft that is in service in hundreds around the world. For the sake of determining if there was any mechanical failure, experts should have been brought in even from Russia. The purpose is to keep air travel safe. A "good" country would do this. There is even more circumstantial evidence these thugs have used credit cards of the dead, stolen personal belongings, and tampered with evidence.

The US is no saint in the Uk crisis, but the Russians are proving themselves to be no better than the Pakis, and probably worse after shooting or helping those who shot down a civilian airliner. The pro-Russian view in this thread is sickening like those in the US govt. who support the Pakis.

AoA. Mortullah was inspired by CNN and Fox news or his acc was hijacked by some slimy NSA worker sitting in windowless room.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jul 2014 17:56

would be a good project for HAL to take up once it gets out of the IJT hole.
we need such a rugged truck with a wide variety of munitions for the CAS role.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 23 Jul 2014 18:12

Rony wrote:
Austin wrote:Flight MH-17 Black Boxes To Be Analyzed In "Impartial" London
Oh the chutzpah of the poodles

Comments
Soon to be found on the voice recorder:
"See that area right there, that is the rebel area, supported by Putin. Yeah, right there, right where that missile is coming from."

pods

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 23 Jul 2014 18:19

Austin wrote:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/colonelc ... 1_1000.png

Austin-ji,
A small kinda OT question. In the image you linked, it says `ур' before the `Air-Air R60' (воздух воздух R60). What does `ур' stand for? Is it acronym/abbreviation for something in Russian?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 23 Jul 2014 18:28

2 Ukrainian military fighter jets shot down - CNBC

Pro-Russian rebels shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets on Wednesday, not far from where a Malaysian airliner was brought down last week in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 passengers on board.

A spokesman for Ukraine's military operations said the planes were downed near Savur Mogila, a burial mound in the Shaktersky region where a memorial marks ambushes by the Soviet army on occupying Nazis during World War II.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Jul 2014 18:33

Please sir.

The US is incapable of detecting a SAM launch in the manner they do their isharebazzi.

HOW DARE YOU?

It was detected on FaceBook AND Twitter!

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 23 Jul 2014 18:43

nageshks wrote:
Austin wrote:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/colonelc ... 1_1000.png
Austin-ji,
A small kinda OT question. In the image you linked, it says `ур' before the `Air-Air R60' (рохдух рохдух R60). What does `ур' stand for? Is it acronym/abbreviation for something in Russian?

Ypromlyvaya Raketa= Guided rocke/ missile perhaps

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 23 Jul 2014 18:46

^^Good for Russia. Shows that they are not intimidated by threats from the west. We need to learn a lesson from this.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 23 Jul 2014 18:49

rsingh wrote:
nageshks wrote:
Austin-ji,
A small kinda OT question. In the image you linked, it says `ур' before the `Air-Air R60' (воздух воздух R60). What does `ур' stand for? Is it acronym/abbreviation for something in Russian?
Ypromlyvaya Raketa= Guided rocke/ missile perhaps

Yup - that works. Thanks, RSingh-ji. управляемая ракета would fit the context perfectly.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Jul 2014 18:50

Has anyone considered the CT that MH17 was very deliberately targeted and shot down? Both fighter plane(s) and SAM may have been set up, I don't know which was used. Clearly they needed backup since the Su-25 has a very low ceiling and the SAM was in the hands of the Right Sector Neo-Nazis (each had a vodka bottle in the other hand).

Evidence:
1. The flight was rerouted over a certain area.
2. The altitude was reduced
3. Both of these were done essentially real-time (i.e., while the airplane was in flight, actually inside UkBapZi ATC regime. )
4. One or more UkBapZi fighter planes scrambled and climbed towards the flight. IOW, they were not on patrol at altitude, they were asked to take off at short notice.

Suppose M had just learned that Blofeld's #2 was on board, and was taking the TopSecret Thingy (NSA tape of BO "going" in the Golden WHOTUS-POTTUS) stolen from under M's seat-cushion to KL and on to Beijing. 007 had as usual "mucked it up" and was trying to "Hold the British End Up" on a dingy in the Aegean with a Chinese houri (Agent 69). The revelation that this was in the hands of the MI-6 would have shattered the Western Al-Lie-Antz and cut funding for all the Dossiehs that B.Liar had been commissioned to write, since the WHOTUS Spokesbunny cyaint write. I say, what-what!!! Not cricket at all!

The Minister would have called his counterpart Ars-Nick Chickenov in Kiev and requested last-minute help. Once past the Russian border, the flight would be over Russia (duh!) and then over Eyeran, Pakistan, or even might divert over Chinese airspace like MH370. They would avoid the DG area like the plague. So the UkBapZis were the last resort.

A US satellite was of course diverted to provide real-time tracking for the Aurora Hypersonic Fighter that had taken off from Area 51, and was heading across with its Mach 18 mijjiles, but as usual, ATC clearance took a while because the operators are Area 51 were off watching BBBoyz Baseball World Series in Denver, so, as Alistair McLean said in HMS Ulysses:

The Home Fleet will of course arrive with their thumbs up their musharrafs, but they will be too late as always.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 23 Jul 2014 19:38

Rebels shoot down 2 Su-25's after the MH-17 incident?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jul 2014 21:48

RSoami wrote:
There is even more circumstantial evidence these thugs have used credit cards of the dead, stolen personal belongings, and tampered with evidence.
Really. But the Dutch who lost most people in this tragedy are praising the `thugs` for their handling. US seems to be having more khujli than anyone else. Of course you believe the US side of the story.

Has anyone noted the loud silence from the real EU: Germany, Netherlands, France (UK being merely a rear appendage of the US)? It is certain as daylight that they know all the details. Gas or no gas, these countries would have gone hammer and tong at the Russians if they had any level of certainty about Russian involvement in the shoot down, including pro-Russian rebel involvement. Instead, they are doing the opposite. Same with the Malaysians. Only the US and UK, both countries that have nothing to do with the shoot down, are making all the cluck-clucking sounds. Wonder why?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2014 23:10

Did US jump the gun in blaming Russia for downing of MH17?

Eleven years after the United States chased Iraq’s non-existent WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction), have the Americans erred again, this time in getting after Russia in the MH17 episode? Has the US-led western community once again jumped the gun and shot off its mouth before having clinching evidence of Russia’s alleged involvement in the 17 July downing of the Malaysian passenger plane? Or is it a larger Western strategy and another kind of WMD – Weapon of Mass Distraction?

Ironically, an American wire agency has come up with three interesting things: (i) the US intelligence has not found any direct link of Russia in downing of MH17; (ii) the presence of any Russian during the missile launch was not confirmed by any official; and (iii) there was no corroborative evidence of the missile crew having been trained in Russia.

This is in stark contrast to what US President Barack Obama had said on Monday. Obama had said MH17 had been “shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists” that had been both armed with anti-aircraft weapons and trained by Russia.
The site of the plain crash in Ukraine. AP

The site of the plain crash in Ukraine. AP

While the latest assessment of the US intelligence does not unravel the whodunit mystery (though it still insists that Russia “created conditions” that led to the downing of the Malaysian passenger plane), the final word will be out only when the ongoing international investigations conclude. This is going to take several weeks.

Till that happens Russia’s spat with the West and the western-supported Ukraine government will inevitably continue.

Hours after the downing of MH17, the Russian defence ministry had said the Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, a highly sophisticated weapon system that is capable of shooting down aircraft at great heights upwards of 33000 feet, altitude at which MH17 was flying before being shot down. The Buk system was equipped with at least 27 launchers.

Here is the relevant statement of the Russian defence ministry: “According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1” ... These complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers.”

A day later, the Russian defence ministry issued another statement contradicting Kiev’s claims and said the Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when MH17 was shot down. Moscow also said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path. “The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk),” the Russian defence ministry statement said.

Russia has already warned Ukraine that Kiev will have to answer a lot of questions. Several such questions have been raised here.

The Russian military has come up with some more questions and tossed up military monitoring data arguing that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter had been gaining altitude in the direction of MH17 shortly before the Malaysian plane was downed.

Chief of General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov has gone on record as remarking thus: "Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing… The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

A distance of three to five kms for a fighter jet is nothing and can be covered in milliseconds.

Moreover, the Russians have demanded to know from Kiev why MH17 was asked to change its flight path after reaching Donetsk and why the hapless plane was told to get out of the international corridor over Ukraine’s airspace in the conflict zone.

Another searching question put by the Russians to Ukraine and the West is why Ukraine deployed the Buk missile system on the periphery of rebel-controlled territory and that too when the rebels do not have aircraft.

Clearly, till the ongoing international investigations are completed the blame game between Russia and the West will continue.
The writer is a Firstpost Consulting Editor and a strategic analyst who tweets @Kishkindha

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jul 2014 23:51

can one the smarter people here find the Radar images from what I believe was a very slick russian presentation on this

TIA
never mind

got it

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-2 ... planes-mh1

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Jul 2014 00:09

All you need to know about the MH17 reporting.
CNN reporter spars with American RT reporter:

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jul 2014 02:03

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 3960.story

Latest from Ukraine.
Russia shot down the two Ukraine planes.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 24 Jul 2014 06:11

Thanda Waar 2.0 could soon take an ugly turn. Gloves are off, all bets are off. Tough to believe the timing was a coincidence. In addition, wouldn't be surprised if families of deceased file multi-billion $$ laasuite.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-2 ... im-1-.html
Putin’s Ukraine Woes Compounded by $103 Billion Yukos Claim

Russia will discover next week how much it may be asked to pay for the confiscation a decade ago of Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s Yukos Oil Co., then the country’s biggest oil producer.

The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague will rule on July 28 on a $103 billion damages claim the company’s former owners filed against Russia in 2007, Tim Osborne, head of GML Ltd., former holding company of Yukos, said by e-mail. Court official Willemijn van Banning said by phone she couldn’t comment on the date for the ruling.....

Another ruling by the European Court of Human Rights on a $38 billion claim filed by ex-Yukos management that would benefit all former shareholders may also come this year.