LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Mar 2016 15:39

With regard to the LCA program - the Tejas' flyaway cost of $25 million is pretty accurate. What you're disputing I think is the R&D cost (~Rs 8,000 crore) which is a fair point. Though given the typically cheaper cost of labour its probably not off by that much.

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 04 Mar 2016 17:06

Viv S wrote:With regard to the LCA program - the Tejas' flyaway cost of $25 million is pretty accurate. What you're disputing I think is the R&D cost (~Rs 8,000 crore) which is a fair point. Though given the typically cheaper cost of labour its probably not off by that much.

Also, we must recognize that a lot of the R&D money was spent developing infrastructure and training people on the LCA design and development over the past 20 years. Yes, a fair chunk of it went abroad to buy the components and systems that we did not have (engine, actuators, radar etc) but most of it went into developing the aircraft and its systems. We also now have the NFTC operational which has done a good job with the flight testing so far. All of these things are a requirement for any country to be able to develop its own advanced fighter aircraft or really any type of aircraft be it commercial or transport or military.

I think that the 8000 cr that has been spent is low for the number of years and the amount of work done. Any other country it would have been 50,000 cr at the least. If we end up buying 250 LCA's then the R&D cost per aircraft is hardly 32 crores or less than $5 million. This is less than the cost of a single trainer like our HTT40/PC7.

Also we must recognize that without all this work on the LCA would we have been able to even dream of the AMCA and even the MKI customization that we did?

I hope we really keep buying and improving the LCA for the next 15 years and make a fantastic AMCA that would be the envy of the world.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 04 Mar 2016 17:30

Raha ji on the additional LCA production line and another fighter jet production line (PPP mode).

Govt plans to make second line of fighter aircrafts under Make in India project, says IAF chief - Pointing out that some of the aircrafts like the MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage were being upgraded, the air chief said, "Some of our old fleets are becoming absolutely obsolete and so we need to replace them."

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... wh91q.dpuf

In order to refurbish the dwindling number of fighter aircrafts in the Indian Air Force (IAF), the chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Arup Raha on Friday said the government is planning to manufacture a “second line” of fighter planes under the Make in India project. “Within 15-20 years, any platform with any air force will tend to suffer from obsoleteness… Aircrafts are losing its relevance because new technologies have come up and they will not be able to match especially if these newer technologies are acquired by adversaries. Yes, we have obsoleteness and that is one major reason why our squadron strength is coming down,” Raha said while addressing the mediapersons on the sidelines of a President’s Standards and Colours award ceremony held at Jamnagar Air Force Station.

Pointing out that some of the aircrafts like the MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage were being upgraded, the air chief said, “Some of our old fleets are becoming absolutely obsolete and so we need to replace them.” “We are likely to get the Rafael soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added. Though Raha did not expand on the matter, defence officials said the plan could be to start indigenous production of another fighter jet mostly under the PPP mode.

The IAF chief also spoke of having learnt a “few lessons” from the Pathankot terrorist attack. “We are revitalising our training and are getting better small arms… We have also classified and prioritised IAF bases based on the threat perceptions, proximity to the border and the assets these bases have,” Raha said adding that “smart fences” having intrusion alarms will be set up. “The government has ordered a special review by a team that is being led by an ex-lieutenant general. This team is going to give the report by the 31st of this month,” he added. When asked if the Pakistani investigation team probing the Pathankot attack will be allowed into the Pathankot IAF base, the IAF head said the decision lay with the government.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2016 18:30

dileep, i don't know the latest and greatest LED.. I am talking circa 1990ish.. for certain high wind applications, exposing the bare PCBs to high fan wind and vibration, we had designed mini/micro copper washers just enough for the LED leads legs in before and after insertion (meaning both PCB sides). These LEDs had a blocker so that they sit on the PCB, so no prob on sitting against the copper washers. The bottom side where we solder, ensures the soldering is with the washer as well. So, we get the strength after soldering. This technique didn't tear of (then double side pcb onree) the printed circuit lines. Of course, we had expert worksmen

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Mar 2016 18:41

Bhaskar_T wrote:Raha ji on the additional LCA production line and another fighter jet production line (PPP mode).

Govt plans to make second line of fighter aircrafts under Make in India project, says IAF chief

.....................................

Pointing out that some of the aircrafts like the MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage were being upgraded, the air chief said, “Some of our old fleets are becoming absolutely obsolete and so we need to replace them.” “We are likely to get the Rafael soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added. Though Raha did not expand on the matter, defence officials said the plan could be to start indigenous production of another fighter jet mostly under the PPP mode.

....................................

Is it a second line of LCA or a foreign fighter?

I would think a "Make in India" fighter would be a non-LCA product.

So, I would expect 120 LCAs, at least 36 Rafale and "an additional line" of fighters based on Make in India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2016 18:46

David Cameron was gungo on his offer. so are others. Rafale is a non-starter because of the price alone. Asking 11b for 7b is too much. Ef knows about our needs well. Dassault is known for its heavy french hand and stiff head as well.

He might have to fight the Russkies and Khans. Russkies might go for the heavier deals, while the khans will chew us for heavy legal agreements and signings. this is not an easy job unless one of these firangs give up. until then, we should focus on our second assembly line and AMCA. up that thread.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 04 Mar 2016 19:15

This second fighter does not make sense. Why do you want the Rafale when you have this second fighter ? Why do you want this second fighter when it has a lead time of 7-10 years before production ?
The best course of action is to order 500 LCAs of which 200 is through HAL and 300 is through a private partner.
PS: The deal makes perfect sense only if want to waste money on some imported maal

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Mar 2016 19:25

This second line in all probability will be for Rafale. Hence IAF will try to standardize its fleet between 3 type. We should stop dreaming that LCA will be built in second line by some private entity as well. HAL won't let it happen.

Other boutique teen fighters like Mig 29/Mirage/Jags will slowly fade away from inventory.

P.S. Actual ground reality is the opposite of whats being reported in papers for big acquisitions like MMRCA. When you see offers from F-18/F-16/Gripen etc willing to setup local line, and less from Dassult/MOD, you can take a guess on whats happening behind the doors. MMRCA is still alive in spirit and haunting MOD.

If we won't buy Rafale, they will sell it to Porkies on super lax loan terms. Maybe MOD already knows this and the reason they are holding back for so long. Its business, nothing personal.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 04 Mar 2016 19:32

NRao - I agree with your conclusion based on my interpretation of the article. In addition to the 2nd production line for LCA which would make 16 LCA's/year, the other production line being spoken about is another fighter jet under MakeInIndia. Raha ji clearly says that upgraded Mig-29, Jaguar, Mirage-2000 will need a replacement and this replacement is going to be a non-LCA fighter jet under MakeInIndia and that too under PPP mode. This is a good strategy IMO. LCA production line will keep us giving high learning curve and some independence from foren maal. The other fighter jet production line will provide us manufacturing skills, ability to replenish the depleting squadrons & it is a good insurance should HAL continue to under-perform on delivery of LCAMk1/Mk1A + Mk2 jets.

The problem is,
1. Gripen - IAF says LCA better than Gripen even when Mk1A is yet to be demonstrated. (Fadnavis ji met Saab CEO few months ago, actually he went into cockpit of Gripen)
2. EF and Rafale - Both are expensive and their production line assembly is out of the picture. Too high costs. Rafale may get additional orders.
3. F-16 and F-18: Former is probably not being looked at whereas latter probably suits more for our force.
4. Mig35: Probably the least ever considered candidate even though latest cost estimates based on ongoing Egypt-Russia deal suggests it is indeed quite cheap (2 Billion$ for 46 fighters = 44 MMUsd).

So, which one is going to be & how many (because the production line costs will need to be justified)? I think F-18 seems to be the front runner. Parrikar ji has hinted that timeline for this additional fighter jet maturation is by end 2016.

NRao wrote: Is it a second line of LCA or a foreign fighter?

I would think a "Make in India" fighter would be a non-LCA product.

So, I would expect 120 LCAs, at least 36 Rafale and "an additional line" of fighters based on Make in India.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Mar 2016 19:56

Gripen. Everyone else has been the front runner at some point. The second line will be gripen.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 04 Mar 2016 20:22

Shreeman wrote:Gripen. Everyone else has been the front runner at some point. The second line will be gripen.

shubh shubh boliye Shreeman ji.

Gripen nai chalbe.

we will be using massa engines for the whole LCA fleet. Might as well have massa phyterr @ Super Hornet.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2016 20:38

Rafale->EF->LCA Mk2. Gripen will make LCA redundant. Like said, if Gripen, then might as well jackal&hyde with super hornets after doing some poodling. It is already out that Parikkar ji said, no joint patrol but only exercise in SCS. This clearly shows how the massans wants us to poodle, and do a mix up in the region with China and pakis. Heck, after millions of hit, these firang brains don't get it.

Ideally, my choice is EF or Mk2. Last chance, as Rafale b@lls needs to be squeezed.

the fish bone says mk2

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Mar 2016 21:43

Lets keep this off the LCA thread folks.

TO THE MODS: Instead of starting a fresh thread, could the IAF Rafale thread be renamed "IAF: Rafale & other fighter options - News & Discussion"? Or something on those lines.

With a €3-4 billion gulf between the asking price and the offered price, the Rafale's prospects aren't looking very strong. But the deal has not been scrapped, its still very much alive and kicking (a bit), so the thread can't be locked yet.

On the other hand, this other fighter acquisition has been discussed by both the RM & IAF chief, but not formally announced, so its doubtful if it merits its own thread. But discussion on the topic is inevitable.

So best to merge the two threads. Its not like there's much news emerging on the Rafale front anyway, and the discussions are all rather one sided.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2016 21:48

I think the lca 2 as well as the amca are tightly tied to the GE 414 hence the push towards the shornet.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2016 22:30

We got hammered right from Shakti tests on both GE and LM on engines and radars.. We still going behind them. I understand they are fantastic engines, but so are the EJ200s, and having high growth potential with similar costs of ownership/transfer.

IMHO, it is still not late to get EJs or GEs or PW or whoever including Snecma or Saturn to get Kaveri upto the spec we need, and further ensure we have both the current and uprated engines tested at our new facilities at chitradurga soon. we can't let K9 not bite into the programs.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Mar 2016 23:23

Got this paper by Dr. KH from 2004 -
Developing light combat aircraft: foresight as the guiding principle

Sharing from Google drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Jcr1 ... sp=sharing

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 05 Mar 2016 00:14

nirav wrote:
Shreeman wrote:Gripen. Everyone else has been the front runner at some point. The second line will be gripen.
shubh shubh boliye Shreeman ji.

Gripen nai chalbe.

we will be using massa engines for the whole LCA fleet. Might as well have massa phyterr @ Super Hornet.

There really hasnt been a true western assembly line (ex-ukistani trainers dont count, and ancient history of the misc. wars notwithstanding, there is nothing in recent memory) that is of relevance to creating some sort of viability in local industry. As in a case for independent existence, such that greed may cause local traders to salivate.

When reality collides with the prospect of a second line, there may be none. But if there is one, then it will be in western india. And it will be gripen. Or so read the sands right now, the winds may shift them.

And it will be another useless prospect. No one paid a cent for this opinion forever ago, when it posited tgat the mmrca scam will not result into anything tangible. Or when it rumored that the raffle was unlikely to pan out at 126. Chances of 36 arent great either, but thats besides the point.

The way things work, only gripen stands a chance. And that is a bad thing.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Mar 2016 00:29

Now now. Don't be so glum. An IDRW article, but still...

Making Gripen fighters in India not favoured by IAF

Swedish defence major Saab plans to Make its Gripen fighter in India has roadblock with stiff resistance coming from Indian Air force said well-informed sources close to idrw.org. IAF is not in favour of ordering 4.5+ Gen fighter jet, even though SAAB has offered India technical help in the development of indigenous AMCA 5th generation fighter aircraft in lieu of orders for its Gripen fighters which lost out of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender in 2011 which was won by French Rafale fighter jets.

At present India is negotiating with France for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets out of 126 requested by Indian Air Force under Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender and Defence minister Parrikar already has confirmed that by end of this year another vendor will be selected who will make up to 90 fighter jets in India with active participation from Private sector company with major transfer of technology .

Saabs Gripen which belongs to same class as indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is finding no takers in IAF which now considers Tejas a better product compared to Gripen due to endless customization options offered by the indigenous fighter jet for which IAF has already placed first mass order for 106 jets with upgraded Avionics over previously 20 already ordered and according to many defence analyst numbers will finally touch 300 + with production line chunking out upgraded LCA -Tejas over next few years which will replace all retiring Mig-21s and Mig27s and is clearly not interested in placing orders for aircraft in same class as LCA .

Shreeman wrote:When reality collides with the prospect of a second line, there may be none. But if there is one, then it will be in western india.

More likely.. Hyderabad. If HAL's not in the running, the next best (in many respects.. better) thing is TASL, in terms of experience, competence, and credibility with foreign OEMs. Although a Tata-run line could be set up elsewhere, they'll probably find it more efficient to set it up locally.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Mar 2016 01:22

Second line is already there ... Su-30MKI

Around 12-16 units are being built annually. Most sensible approach is to continue this line for few more years beyond 2019.

LCA numbers need to be notched up and the production ramped up beyond 16/year to something like 24-32/year. With SP deliveries beginning this year, this needs to be expanded upon--another most logical way forward.

Focus on rationalizing fleet around Su-30MKI and LCA. Augment and/or replace when FGFA and AMCA become available in another decade. Continue with the slow retirements of all other combat types in service.

Other MRCA type as "third" line is pretty much a myth at this point. Negotiations take way too long and at the end too costly. Not going to happen.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Mar 2016 02:30

Besides that Grepin article, there was another that I had come across that claimed that the 40 MKIs were being pushed by the Russians. That the IAF does not more than the 272.

I think every player is pulling every trick from his pocket. Expect all sorts of twists and turns. Enjoy the ride, will not come again.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2016 03:25

srai, I would focus on PAKFA which is almost ready than MKI. but why not Mk2?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Mar 2016 03:53

If PAKFA is nearly ready, why then spend $7.5 billion in the next 6 years to get a FGFA?

It is nowhere close to being ready. Unless you/someone has more details.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2016 04:22

answering you in the right dhaaga

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Mar 2016 04:50

nileshjr wrote:Got this paper by Dr. KH from 2004 -
Developing light combat aircraft: foresight as the guiding principle

Sharing from Google drive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Jcr1 ... sp=sharing

thanks. Looks like similar foresight was not used for Kaveri Engine.

Despite earlier failures due to sub-optimal performances by engine developers.

So why no oversight of engine development?

Also funding was meager setting it up for non performance.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2016 04:55

planned negligence?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 05 Mar 2016 05:47

Kaveri program can be Indias salvation! We can avoid paying ransom money to Foreign vendors if Kaveri comes good. And it is so tantalizingly close to success that it must be supported. We throw billions at foreign companies or perhaps the in-laws of some BRF posters! Why can we not spend a billion dollars in making Kaveri a reality?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Mar 2016 08:40

srai wrote:Second line is already there ... Su-30MKI Around 12-16 units are being built annually. Most sensible approach is to continue this line for few more years beyond 2019.

The second line is probably going to involve the private sector exclusively, I think that is the intent - MaKe in India and all that. So even though MKI is indeed MKI, it will still not be considered MKI.

In any case IAF is supposed to get 40 more flankers. This, along with incoming Rafales and LCA will get the IAF about 250 extra airframes by 2025. Along with jags (120), Mig-29/M2000 (110), and existing 270 Su-30, numbers would be around 750 fighters. The MKI MRCA (shornet or whatever) will then run for about 10 years replacing the jags with more LCAs coming in to bolster numbers closer to the 55 sqd mark. By the time the MiG-29/M2000 start to retire around 2035, the AMCA should start coming in.

JMT

habal · Post by **habal** » 05 Mar 2016 08:56

IAF: Welcome to Fighter Zoo

sheer genius of our planning.

In any case they don't really intend to fight anybody, so it's all ok.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Mar 2016 11:42

as a data point china is making the final push on the turbine engine front. they have recently merged all their 3 domestic aero engine makers and no doubt flush with funding and industrial espionage back ends.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 05 Mar 2016 13:47

Or put second line of Su-30 MKI for building PAK-FA/FGFA, with at the most Russian+Indian avionics/weapons/RADARs. For stealth fighter, better to have as much independence as possible. PAK-FA/FGFA has a higher range as well, which is a plus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Mar 2016 14:23

Karan M wrote:TSarkar its not 160 unless we look at all up squadrons of 20 airframes each.... the orders placed by themselves didnt get finished....it was 40 LCAMk1 and now another 6 squads of Mk1A......RM just confirmed 8 sq..thats ...144.. at 18 each...basically IAF moved Mk2 orders to MK1A. If 16 more at 20 per sq that will be good news.

Also not really confirmed whether we got source codes for RDY2...it would be interesting to confirm. Even for Bars some hw remains imported but perhaps post RMs initiative it may reduce...all hopes remain on Uttam.

Confirmation that its six squadrons total at around 120 airframes. Hardly 160 airframes..

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... d1EWZ.dpuf

“We are likely to get the Rafael soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added.

One can hope that its 120 LCA Mk1As and 40 LCA Mk1s but I consider it doubtful.

More likely the original plan remains as was with the Mk1 (40) and Mk2 (83) now its Mk1 and Mk2A.

The AF has not really increased the numbers for the LCA. Only plus is confirmed orders for Mk1A vs another round of nail biting for Mk2.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Mar 2016 23:18

^ but didn't the dm more recently state 8 sqds. Can they manage that many sqds via 120 units? My guess is 140 odd birds.

But more will be likely after these are produced. The next batch is probably going to be based on naval version mk2.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Mar 2016 01:11

Its 120 and DDM is called DDM for a reason...lets hope Mk2 is defined by AF as well..

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Mar 2016 01:16

Hear a lot of MK1 and MK1A, what about MK2? TBD?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Mar 2016 04:43

Only Navy has a Mk2 at this point. Refer aeromag..

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Mar 2016 16:59

NRao wrote:Hear a lot of MK1 and MK1A, what about MK2? TBD?

As per the original ASR, LCA Mk.1 and Mk.1A more or less fulfills the IAF's "light" multi-role fighter requirements to replace MiG-21/27. LCA Mk.2 has always been more of a naval requirement for carrier operations--needed more T:W during take-offs/landings compared to what NP Mk.1 are capable of. It's almost the size of Mirage-2000. Likely that the IAF will eventually also get on board with the Mk.2 program, which IMO should be derived from the naval Mk.2 and could fill-in for "medium-light" category. It would be a viable replacement for Mirage-2000 and MiG-29 post 2025. Makes a whole lot of sense to order 6 squadrons (120+ units) of it.

6 sqdn (120+) -> LCA Mk.1/1A (production ongoing until around 2024)
6 sqdn (120+) -> LCA Mk.2 (production post 2025)

Total: 12 sqdn (240+)

Around 2035, AMCA would be entering full production. Till then LCA Mk.2 line would provide that continuation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2016 17:16

if they are thinking of revisiting the whole 9 yards of the design, might as well spend on AMCA instead of Mk2. Of course, they can consider Mk2 as TD test bed for a twin-engine airframe, DSIs, and all those super hornetish techs, or JSFish intakes, stealth, wings and rudder techs.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Mar 2016 17:27

^^^
AMCA is much further away than LCA Mk.2 at this point. Go for continuation of known quantity and keep production ongoing to continue the build up of the Indian aerospace MIC. Worst thing that can happen is a long gap between production of LCA Mk.1/A and AMCA. That would rollback all that is being achieved so far in creating Tier-1 - 3 aerospace manufactures/suppliers. LCA Mk.2 is that gap-filler IMO.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2016 18:15

SaiK wrote:if they are thinking of revisiting the whole 9 yards of the design, might as well spend on AMCA instead of Mk2. Of course, they can consider Mk2 as TD test bed for a twin-engine airframe, DSIs, and all those super hornetish techs, or JSFish intakes, stealth, wings and rudder techs.

There will be very less difference in MK2 you described above and 1st AMCA prototype in terms of fundin, design efforts and flight-testing. They do not have to scrap/redesign MK2 for all these test programs, do they? All this can still run separately on our own "X-planes" (converted LCA LSPs would be just fine and economical also for many of above tests). We shouldn't repeat same mistakes again, we need to separate IAF requirement and R&D projects. MK2 is a bird in hand and can be used to not only arrest but increase IAF squadron strength economically. By all measures it will be kick-ass and IAF should not have much of an issue with it if they get it in reasonable time. Also lets not expect AMCA to have all the bells and whistles right in the 1st version. It will also have Mk1/Mk2 etc.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Mar 2016 19:36

makes sense... it has more impact staging AMCA via Mk2. we need another 'kick-ass' 4 legged cheeger (cheetah-tiger) to get people thinking about minimum of 400 LCAs.