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Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 01 Mar 2015 02:48
by Vayutuvan
Bade wrote:Palakkad should become the industrial hub not an educational hub and leverage connections across the border with TN.
That is where the rub is, isn't it? It will be difficult to get faculty to go to remote areas. Non-remote areas with the required infrastructure with a thriving industry and appropriate intellectual milieu are almost the same in most cases. Where are the educational hubs in India? The ones that come to mind are all in big cities - beNagaluru, puNE, hyderAbAd in addition to the four big metros, IIT cities kAnpur and roorkee - mind these are large cities, allahAbAd, and tiruvanantapuram. Only most NITs are in smaller cities (still they are cities). How many faculty willingly want to go to Orugallu, or suratkal? How about vishAkha paTTNam, vijayawADa, kOyambattUru, madurai, nAshik, bhOpAl, rAnchI, chanDIgaDh leave alone pilAnI? Everybody wants to be in the metros and ITVity happening places.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 01 Mar 2015 08:25
by SaiK
palakkad is just 50 kms from coimbatore. if a good road is done, one reach a B/C-class city in 45 min.

bade, you can consider to rent in palakkad rather move, while retain your villas in cochin. :) all the students would be interested is onlee in your lectures and teachings.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 01 Mar 2015 11:58
by Supratik
Bade, national institute of pharmaceutical education and research.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 00:52
by Bade
Supratik, I did a search on NIPER and found it has been operating for a while...wonder why it less well known. There used to be a Pharmacy Dept at JU. Why the need to setup a separate silo, should have been part of IISER or IITs for better cross-pollination of ideas. In India we like silos.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 00:57
by Bade
SaiK, how are you going to attract world class faculty to tier-3 towns ? How will spouses of faculty find gainful employment in Palakkad town. Coimbatore being 50kms away onlee does not help, not for Indian road conditions even expressway standards one finds elsewhere if not in KL today.

The new one in Karnataka has many contenders as a search reveals, Raichur, Bellary, Mysore, Hubli-Dharwaad. Raichur is close enough to Hyderabad so is Hubli to Goa. So it is going to be between Mysore and B'lur for the final choices. Either one is not a bad choice as such in terms of factors which goes into attracting faculty. I am sure the older faculty angling for post retirement positions will vote for Mysore ;-) same as Palakkad and Tirupati.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 01:05
by SaiK
last year when I visited the route, they were on the 4 way highway laying.. i hope that has improved now or progressing well. but heck, the time we decide to get the campus built, it might take the same time to wrap up this 50km road converted to 4 lanes.

regarding spouse getting jobs, i'd expect them again in research field.. perhaps IIT/industry sponsored right in the IIT itself, or near by industrial places of coimbatore. an oppty to grow, and not just congest around bigger cities. if the spouses are energized for WFH IT sector, nothing beats the env there.

i know, kerala itself (perhaps not cochin/tvm) is pretty laid back.. mainly because of natural luxuries one gets by way of climate, water and living conditions. but then, the exact same environment is what propels students to focus on r&d and education. no disturbances from high life is perfect for research studies.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 01:20
by Bade
Palakkad's location has more value for setting up industries, it already is with some central labs and potential coach factory. The driest land in KL with low population density has to be put to use for better purpose than setting up educational institutes. If you wait for 50-100 yrs it may turn into a great location for an IIT. Time will tell how it is able to attract talent to relocate there. If KA chooses Bellary/Raichur then perhaps the newer IITs in the South will be on equal footing to attract talent, both students as well as faculty.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 02:19
by SaiK
if i may speak from student's experience PoV, i would rate any place in KL at a minimum percentage point that would not differ vastly compared to other KL places. let us see how things shapes up.. I am pretty bojitive on palakkad. the only thing is, it must begin to receive funds. center is still holding everything now.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 02:51
by Vayutuvan
If a 4 lane highway is ready, 50 KMs is not all that bad, especially if one is wiling to live in the western suburbs (or outskirts as we call in India) of Coimbattur. Could be a win-win for both places. As it is Coimbatore has good technical institutions so faculty and students from these places can collaborate with the IIT faculty and students.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 02:58
by Bade
If co-locating educational institutions were a criterion then Trivandrum in the furthest corner of India would have been a better choice.

I would have thought with Kochi and its refineries, ship building and also IT investments of late would have been easy pickings for at least three major Engg depts. Very few IITs have a strong marine engineering department or ship building one, maybe Madras is the only one as I recall.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 03:17
by SaiK
yes.. my friend went straight to MIT after IITM in naval arch. DOE

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 04:29
by Vayutuvan
Yes, IITM is the only one really doing any kind of marine/ship building researh, AFAIK. That is a little strange in that I would have thought Mumbai would have been also at it being where it is located - mazagaon docks, Navy Nagar et al.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 04:40
by Bade
Not to mention any nuclear engineering departments to speak of either. There used to be a Reactor Physics elective offered at IITM, which was not very popular either two decades ago as there was no hands on component to it, even with Kalpakkam being nearby.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 05:00
by Vayutuvan
Bade: Two decades ago, Nuclear Engineering was a pretty bad field to be in the US too. I know at least one person (from my village) who was pursuing a PhD in the field drop out of the program and take up a job in the same university as a non-TT lecturer/Lab Demonstrator. in spite of non-TT he did OK.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 05:10
by Bade
Seriously the IITs need to hire senior scientist/engineers from BARC/DRDO/CSIR even post retirement to establish new disciplines and not look at the institutes as purely UG degree generating factories. The newer IITs/IISERs offer a clean slate for such an approach.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 06:11
by SaiK
+1 there.. they can also do a reverse knowledge transfer from various DRDO and ISRO retirees or part timers. another great addition would be the propulsion lab at mahendragiri, TN (IISST- where our cryo was built/tested).

considering that as deep forest areas, why would not palakkad be more town?

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 06:24
by Vayutuvan
The problem is that most of those from the above mentioned orgs who are willing to take up post-retirement jobs have a B.Tech. or a B.E. mixed in with 1/3 MTechs. Several at lower levels like Junior Scientists had 3 year Polytechnic degrees post-highschool.

Let me be bold and say that only those with Masters be employed. Then how many post-retirement would like to leave their children/grandchildren and go work (again)? Added to that I am sure you would be hardly surprised if I say that one can find a handful who can guide PhD students at the same level as developed countries' research faculty.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 06:58
by member_28108
SaiK wrote:+1 there.. they can also do a reverse knowledge transfer from various DRDO and ISRO retirees or part timers. another great addition would be the propulsion lab at mahendragiri, TN (IISST- where our cryo was built/tested).

considering that as deep forest areas, why would not palakkad be more town?
The IIST is already in place and people from ISRO come and lecture the students there and in fact students go there to do work(in many ISRO centers) for their projects.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 07:00
by Bade
matrimc, They need not be appointed as full fledged Profs with a battery of PhD students and Post-Docs publishing papers very regularly. They can play the advisory role with more hands on experience (even if only a B.Tech/M.Tech by academic standing) complement the full Profs in guiding research work which requires a lot of real life experience. The role is more like a transfer of technology or skills, and a great learning experience for students as well as young Post-Docs.

SaiK, IIST is not at Mahendragiri, it is just 30km from Trivandrum towards Ponmudi. IISER is within 10km of IIST too.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 13:29
by sum
^^ Was just checking a list of Machine Learning related stuff and its staggering to see the number of Chinese univs in it beating even the US biggies. Guess they have really concentrated a lot on their higher education ( since i see hardly 1-2 Indian names there)?
Publication list in ML/AI domain

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 15:01
by member_28108
People who are technically skilled and are of value due to knowledge skills and practically but who do not have PhD's are taken as adjunct Professors in IIST and are encouraged to get a PhD. You cannot become a full time Professor in an academic role without a PhD as per rules except in medicine.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 16:33
by Supratik
Bade, NIPER was created more as a specialist translational research institute. It was a good idea that has not yet delivered. It is still a premier institute and there are several already functioning. But it has all the problems that the new IITs are facing i.e. lack of funding, infra and good quality people. Also if you have all the major institutes in big cities the hinterland is not going to develop e.g. IIT Kharagpur was built in a not developed area. Today that area has developed. It has several industries and a bustling town. Kalyani in WB is another area. It was a small satelite town that was developed very early on. Today it is becoming a knowledge hub with several institutes including IISER and also chance of AIIMS being located. Faculty salaries have risen sufficiently when both parents don't have to work in a town setting. Cost of living is cheaper than big cities. Staff will find it cheaper to live there than cities. But yes, entertainment can be a problem.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 02 Mar 2015 17:18
by negi
Medha Aunty is again back in akshun.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mad ... epage=true

"Social activist Medha Patkar on Sunday said the campaign against proposed neutrino observatory project in Tamil Nadu will be taken up as a “national battle”, because some foreign companies were attempting to destroy the Western Ghats in India.

Environment impact assessment was not done properly while choosing Pottipuram in Theni district, she alleged, adding that the India-based Neutrino Observatory (INO) project was proposed at a cost of Rs.1,500 crore."


"She also asked the Centre to clarify whether the INO site will be used for storing nuclear waste coming from the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant."

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 03 Mar 2015 05:17
by SaiK
very useful to calculate grades to qpa, gpa and credits approx.

http://www-cs.ccny.cuny.edu/~fenster/gpa.html

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 03 Mar 2015 06:08
by Bade
negi, the same Vaiko who now wants KL CM's help on his delusions about INO, wanted to annex parts of KL where the Periyar dam sits. He was less concerned then about the effects of the dam on the western ghats flora and fauna....

Supratik, Kgp was a different era when the spouses stayed home. Not so anymore, even with better salaries at Asst Prof levels, spouses do have to work and most are highly educated and want a career. Kalyani is not that far off from the northern suburbs of Kolkata.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 11 Mar 2015 21:07
by Bade
I agree 100% with what is said here regarding best locations for centers of excellence. It just cannot be located in a rural area or even a tier-3 town's outskirts for political expedience as was done in the case of some of the institutes. It is ironic that IISERs were located in cities within 30km or so of access but for some reason IITs are considered employment generation activities for rural districts. This is a long term investment (> 100 yrs) much longer than the lifetime of most industries and needs to be chosen carefully. The time to expand to rural areas with local chapters will come in due course in another 30-50 years time if necessary.

As I said many days ago, proximity of IIT Goa and Hydbd means an Uttara Kannada district option is ruled out and it is between Mysore and Blur at this time. But politics has no logic as usual.

IIT-Bengaluru will be the best in its league within 5 years
SS Murthy, former VC, Central University of Karnataka, and professor (retd), IIT Delhi

The announcement of an IIT for Karnataka has brought cheer, especially among those interested in quality higher education in the state. As director of NIT Surathkal, I'd organized a seminar in Bengaluru in 2004 where there was unanimous endorsement of the need for an IIT to produce global quality manpower for economic growth. But its location is crucial for it to quickly grow as an international brand expected of an IIT. The factors that matter must be academic, primarily those that attract best faculty and students. Bengaluru is clearly the best place on all counts. The best IITs are those located in places like Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. Even established ones such as Kharagpur, Kanpur and Roorkee are facing connectivity problems, causing faculty attrition and throwing up difficulties in hosting international events.

New IITs located in state capitals like Guwahati, Gandhinagar, Hyderabad, Bhubaneswar and Patna are developing fast when compared with those in Jodhpur and Indore. The worst of the lot are Ropar and Mandi, which lack air connectivity. Ropar is not attracting faculty though it is a two-hour drive from Chandigarh airport. Although established six years ago, its electrical engineering department has just eight faculty members. The preferable location must be within a two-hour drive from an international airport and no two IITs must be there within 200-km distance. The potential sites near Bengaluru International Airport are Chikkaballapur, Kanakapura, Tumakuru and Ramanagaram.

The proposed IITs in Tirupati and Palakkad are further away from the city. Although Mysuru and Davanagere may be considered, they are not likely to attract good faculty and they lack industry-interface options. Hubballi-Dharwad, Belagavi and Karwar are ruled out since Goa IIT will be close by. Similarly, Raichur-Kalaburagi belt too is unsuitable as Hyderabad IIT is closeby. Raichur has the disadvantage of poor connectivity and infrastructure. Attracting qualified faculty in these places will be a Herculean task. The watchword of any IIT is excellence. This includes faculty, students, infrastructure, space and location. Faculty befitting IITs are a rare commodity. Their other demands like jobs for spouses, children's education and good healthcare cannot be met in remote locations. Bengaluru has the largest number of scientific and technical manpower. There are over 50 retired IISc and IIT professors of global repute in Bengaluru. They will be happy to be academically associated with an IIT in Bengaluru and make it grow fast. IIT Bengaluru will have the potential to be among the best in its league within five years. If located elsewhere, it may take more than 20 years to compete with others. Karnataka must leverage this advantage. To start with, the IIT can be run from IISc or even UVCE campus as early as in July 2015.

The difficulty in finding a 500-acre land parcel near Bengaluru is often cited as an inhibiting factor. With so much land available for real estate, it is surprising we don't have space for an IIT. Local Industries will be happy to donate liberally and may even be ready to purchase the plot through their CSR resources. Setting up an IIT is not a poverty-alleviation programme. Remote places need good ITIs to produce skilled manpower. An IIT is not a monument but a live centre of learning inhabited by the best brains of the country. A remote location chosen on political considerations may push away quality faculty and students. The result: Taxpayers' thousands of crores of rupees will go down the drain.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 11 Mar 2015 21:22
by Bade
Another well written piece from an academic.

IIT Bengaluru: Can't get better than this
By S Sadagopan

There are many contenders for locating the IIT sanctioned for Karnataka. Understandably, political leaders would like the institute to be in their constituency; political parties and policy planners would prefer locating it in a backward region so that it leads to economic growth. Then there are secondary issues, like the availability of a large piece of land (500+ acres) and water, connectivity and infrastructure.

While these issues are important, it is far more important to address the core issue -- it's often said that institution building is as easy as 1-2-3: Attract and retain first-rate faculty members; attract and retain first-rate students and create a physical and intellectual place where the first-rate people perform at their best.

Faculty members are the most important resource of any academic institution. They are chosen out of individuals who've had exemplary academic performance, studied in some of the finest institutions and are committed to research-led education (create and disseminate knowledge). In today's world, academic salaries are much lower than industry salaries; yet the academic freedom a faculty member enjoys in IIT, coupled with an opportunity to work with some of the brightest minds, continues to attract faculty members to IITs.

But faculty members have some minimal requirements:

Professional interaction with fellow academics from other institutions and corporations and opportunities to attend international conferences.

Social infrastructure: Opportunities for spouses who may want a job other than what an IIT can offer; schooling options for children; access to healthcare, particularly for parents.

Physical infrastructure: Connectivity (both national and international), quality power, Internet and access to skilled technicians who can run labs.

Students are as important, if not more, part of any academic institution. Part of the very high brand value of an IIT is the phenomenally successful contribution by the alumni — award-winning scientists and technologists, amazing researchers and teachers, creators of highly successful products and patents, founders of billion-dollar companies to activists and chief ministers. The education they get from acclaimed teachers, an intensely competitive environment to demonstrate their learning through projects and publications prepare them to make a huge difference to the world they enter after IIT education; that is what makes an IITian walk tall. Their requirements are similar too.

Professional interaction with companies/R&D institutions where they can test out their ideas through projects, job opportunities and opportunities to attend/organize conferences.

Social infrastructure: Opportunity for sports, social and other extra-curricular activities and access to healthcare.

Physical infrastructure: Connectivity, quality power and Internet

Given this background, Bengaluru undoubtedly is the No 1 choice for the new IIT. It offers opportunities for professional interaction for faculty and students, and has perhaps the best social and physical infrastructure, barring traffic snarls!

Of course, there are constraints like land; in the year 2015, we have to think different; mighty MIT has only 168 acres; Singapore Management University took three small pieces of land nearby, connected them via an underground passage, and there are many City universities (RMIT for example). Land is much less of an issue; if the issues mentioned earlier are not addressed, the new IIT would suffer. The disadvantage that IIT Kanpur and Kharagpur (of the old IITs) and Mandi and Ropar (of the new IITs) suffer today, and the relative advantage that IIT Bombay and Madras (of the old IITs) and Hyderabad and Gandhinagar (of the new IITs) enjoy today, are too glaring to ignore. Circa 2015: MIT celebrates 150 years on February 20, 2015; with 1021 professors and 11,319 students MIT counts 74 Nobel Prize winners among its alumni and faculty Circa 2165: IIT Bengaluru perhaps is the one institution that can claim similar numbers.

Is not the choice obvious?

(The writer is director, IIIT-Bangalore, and has taught at IIT-Kanpur and IIM-Bangalore)

TIMES VIEW

While it's time to cheer Karnataka's own IIT, we must ensure there's no tug-of-war over an institute of higher learning. Politicians may want to use an IIT to correct regional imbalances to please their constituents, but they ought to look at it in a practical manner and locate it in a place where its students get the best deal.Bengaluru and its surroundings have it all -land, connectivity, links to industry, ability to attract the best faculty. Nevertheless, our netas should consult educationists and domain experts before taking a final decision on the location without politicizing the issue.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 01:10
by Vayutuvan
Bade: Thanks for posting two very good articles from people who had managed large institutes. IITs are not job generators. What rural areas need are ITIs, polytechnics, and manufacturing industry to employ them.

By the way, why are they not clubbing IIT into IISc and make it a university similar to one of the US midwest universities? May be a little away from Bangalore (Mysore is too far) but have a good road connectivity to the airport?

Give more funding to IISc and start accepting undergrads along with making 4 yr undergrad whether they are sciences-engg.

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 05:16
by Bade
I believe IISc has started a full fledged UG programme or at least an integrated 5-yr MS program is what I heard, but I have not double checked it. Even some IITs do that now, the old ones like Madras.

Regarding clubbing IITs and IISc or IISERs into a regular university setup does make sense. But India we like silos. I personally do not like the idea of separate IISERs. Both IITs and IISERs have so much in common and can feed off each other.

We should be able to build big institutes with just 200-300 acres of land, just need smart designs and not like that type older IITs have. Many of the UC campuses with student strengths in 25k+ range are right within city limits and not sure they have 500+ acres like IITK or IITKGP.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 09:59
by Vayutuvan
Integrated five year Msc programs were there at iIITs long back and continuing. But my point is to stop three year degree program all together. Indian bachelor's are neither employble nor suitable to go into PhD programs. Yes they can take govt exams to become babies in public sector banks or lic or become CAs.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 10:50
by gakakkad
iirc IISc always had a 4 year undergrad..as far as IISER is concerned , judging by their curriculum and research , at least in Biology , they don't seem to be all that great..they have the traditional botany/zoology approach which has been discarded worldwide ..also no phy/chem and math are taught in the 4 year bio course...that is not a good thing..

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 14:27
by Supratik
Two points. It is difficult to get 200-300 acres of land near major cities. Prices are too high and typically govts don't want to pay too much for this e.g. the budget of IISERs are 500 crores. So no one wants to spend 200-300 crores for land which is what it is typically near major cities. IISERs have a good biology program and have recruited some of the best talents - better than IITs.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 14:49
by Bade
Land is usually arranged by the state govt, and not paid out by the center.

IISERs are probably setup on less than 200 acres land, but they are within reach of major cities. Even the one setup near Trivandrum though close to the hills is reachable in less than an hour from the outskirts of the city. Same is true for the one near Kolkata, Pune. In the future IISERs will also expand out to new tier-2 towns depending on their success to be determined in a decade or two. The demands are such it is inevitable due to our population growth.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 14:58
by Bade
http://www.iisertvm.ac.in/pages/bs_ms_programme.phpx
The barrier between the traditional disciplines are fast disappearing. Modern research problems span a wide range of areas. It helps to have basic training in a range of disciplines to succeed in modern research. Accordingly, IISER-TVM MS curriculum is designed to be dominantly interdisciplinary.

The MS programme is of 10 semester duration.
Each academic year has 2 semesters of roughly 16 weeks each
Varsha Semester:August-December
Vasanth Semester:January-May
The first 2 years(ie. the first 4 semesters) will consist of CORE courses common to all students.
3rd and 4th year courses will be specialized in one Major(Biology,Chemistry,Physics or Mathematics) and one or more Minors.
The fifth year will be devoted to a thesis by research. Please read the students guidebook for further details. MSGuide
Not sure what gakkakad is referring to above. They seem to have more of a inter-disciplinary flavor.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 12 Mar 2015 20:19
by gakakkad
http://www.iiserpune.ac.in/userfiles/fi ... ug2013.pdf

while it does mention that first 2 years are common for all branches etc , the impression one gets from reading the curriculum is different... page five of the above doc ,biology curriculum is listed semester wise...mathematics/chemistry etc is not mentioned...also no clear pathway is mentioned for biol..(like we have in massa univ , that include pre-requisites coursework before beginning and necessary courses in order to graduate)

I hope I am misunderstanding this and people specializing in biology do learn math/phys/chem ... else IISER would be no different from tradition "BSc" colleges where it is possible to get a degree in Biology without having taken any math ..chem even...

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 18 Mar 2015 20:31
by Bade
Pretty dry land from the picture in the news item, water issues for a large campus could be a hindrance. Any one local to the district know better ?
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/k ... 005472.ece
The land acquisition process is already on at Pudussery West village in Palakkad with the Union Human Resource Development Ministry issuing an order sanctioning the IIT.

The plan is to acquire 500 acres adjacent to the Kanjikode industrial cluster for setting up the permanent campus.

A task force had been formed under a special tahsildar for land acquisition. Now the process of identifying boundaries is going on.

The government has stated that there will be no delay in fund allocation.

Though 500 acres had been identified in the locality, an expert team deputed by the Centre had found 100 acres unfit for construction because of the rocky terrain.

As per the revised plan, 100 acres on the eastern part of the village would be acquired paying market rate.

Only 20 families needed to be rehabilitated.

The compensation for land acquisition, estimated at Rs.150 crore, would be met by the State government and the land handed over to the Union Ministry

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 18 Mar 2015 20:34
by member_22733
Water issues in Kerala :P

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 18 Mar 2015 20:56
by Bade
Unless they plan to do water trucks :-) like in Madras. The Mother campus in Adyar looks more green now than this one. :P

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 18 Mar 2015 20:57
by member_22733
OT: Everytime I visit Kerala, its full of greenery and water. What have you guys done to deserve this fate.

Re: Indian Education System

Posted: 18 Mar 2015 21:00
by Bade
I think Achhutanandan sold a lemon to the central govt.