Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Apr 2010 07:07

Detailed info on T-90 ( in Russian )

http://military.tomsk.ru/blog/topic-294.html

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Apr 2010 07:37

Shows how low the arguments have really fallen against the Arjun. I guess the insinuation is that the trials in India were somehow not free and fair. With citizens like these, ....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 07:56

user keshavchandra reported a post and said this :

keshavchandra wrote:Vladimir Popovkin announced that a number of programs for development of new armor and artillery weapons will be cancelled. The main victim is the mysterious Object 195 program that was aimed to develop a new generation main battle tank to replace existing T-80 and T-90 tanks in the Russian Army. The new tank also dubbed T-95 has been developed by Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod armor manufacturer in complete secrecy for more than 15 years. Popovkin said the military will focus on modernization of the T-90 instead.

I think he wanted to post this as a comment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2010 08:06

Would be nice to have a mine clearing attachment like the Mine Wolf developed for the Arjun. A hundred of these would breach any of the fortifications of the Pakis from Tar Desert to Ichogil Canal

Average clearance performance 15,000m2 - 25,000m2 per day

Atleast arm the Sappers and Miners with these in the strike corps and then see the maza.

alok_c · Post by **alok_c** » 13 Apr 2010 08:35

ramana wrote:Would be nice to have a mine clearing attachment like the Mine Wolf developed for the Arjun. Atleast arm the Sappers and Miners with these in the strike corps and then see the maza.

Or if we want to take it a step further and develop a Grizzly like assault breacher variant of Arjun.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Apr 2010 10:03

Rahul M wrote:user keshavchandra reported a post and said this :

keshavchandra wrote:Vladimir Popovkin announced that a number of programs for development of new armor and artillery weapons will be cancelled. The main victim is the mysterious Object 195 program that was aimed to develop a new generation main battle tank to replace existing T-80 and T-90 tanks in the Russian Army. The new tank also dubbed T-95 has been developed by Nizhny Tagil Uralvagonzavod armor manufacturer in complete secrecy for more than 15 years. Popovkin said the military will focus on modernization of the T-90 instead.
I think he wanted to post this as a comment.

Actually that news is not yet certain , except for the blog that news is not yet confirmed by mainstream Russian defence news sites or MOD Russia.

It is possible that all 3 projects which are at very advanced stage of development or even induction could be killed , but so far no official word by Russian MOD.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 13 Apr 2010 11:38

EDIT.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Apr 2010 13:07

yes I wonder why we dont have such vehicles. british had them since WW2
used by infantry to shoot explosive cables across minefields.

IDF also has a collection of armoured bulldozers and ploughs suitable for
clearing minefields and demolishing rubble.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/engineering/1498.aspx

a interesting mine laying vehicle
http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/engineering/1493.aspx

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 13 Apr 2010 13:40

Singha wrote:yes I wonder why we dont have such vehicles. british had them since WW2
used by infantry to shoot explosive cables across minefields.

I'm sure we have them. Saw a snippet on Doordarshan some 17 - 18 years ago in "Sainik Samachar" or some program featuring mine clearing techniques. The shooting cable was one such technique demonstrated.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Apr 2010 19:32

How much of the Arjun is indigenous? The engine is not,that being the key item and exposes our weakness in engine development for weapon systems for all the three services.It is in rocketry where we have had the best and most outstanding succcess.Notwithstanding the % of indigenous content,the GOI/MOD/DRDO must now make a pitch to export Arjun if it wants to sell more to the IA.Featuring the tank at Defexpos worldwide will generate a lot of publicity just as much as our aircraft/helos have done.It was a very proud feeling to see Dhruv at the Paris Air Show a few years ago.Since the LCA is also flyinf,I suggest that in future defexpos and air shows,we pull out all stops.There are several countries which would like to buy Indian weapon systems as we are end users par excellence,having bested western and Chinese weaponry of Pak time and again! In fact it was only after India bought MIG-29s and SU-30s that several other so-called NAM nations bought the same.We were also the first nation outside Russia to operate Kilo subs (in the '80s) and the veenrable design is still being exported today,latest buyers Venezuela and Vietnam.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Apr 2010 22:14

People,

the russkis have had a mine clearing vehicle ( throws an explosive rocket propelled charge) based on the MT-LB (UR-77) chassis for years ...

and given our close personal friendship with them we probably have the same as well...

and we may also have Bumar's nice Krotons as well.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Apr 2010 22:40

Singha wrote:yes I wonder why we dont have such vehicles.

One such vehicle on a Arjun/T 90/T 72 chasis was on display at DEF EXPO 2006.

K

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 14 Apr 2010 00:53

Army to purchase more Arjun tanks

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.

Since the Arjun’s assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.

Ankit

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Apr 2010 00:59

Hi philip. The engine, transmission and fire control system for the Arjun are imported though an indigenous transmission is being tested. We should easily be able to get a joint venture partner for the engine if enough orders are guaranteed. DRDO is working on a digital FCS though when it will be ready is anybody's guess.

Cheers.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Apr 2010 01:10

Ankit Desai wrote:Army to purchase more Arjun tanks

Ankit

Can we assume that the article refers to the Arjun MkII here. Or is it just a slightly customized MkI?

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world’s heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Apr 2010 05:09

Ankit Desai wrote:Army to purchase more Arjun tanks

The army is still evaluating that trial report to decide how many additional Arjuns it should order, over and above the existing order of 124 tanks. But, the question before the army is no longer whether to order more Arjuns; rather, it is how many to order? Highly placed Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources confirm that the army is moving away from its staunch opposition to the Arjun.

Since the Arjun’s assembly takes 12-18 months, a fresh order of Arjuns will start being delivered 30-36 months after the order is placed. Thereafter, HVF will deliver 30 Arjuns per year if it operates with just one shift of workers; 50 tanks per year with two shifts.
Ankit

phew!!!....I really wish the IA comes out with some concrete YES/NO and If YES, then number of Arjun tanks to be ordered....any more delay and given the contrary articles in media, we might have couple of BRFites popping the vein any time soon now....

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Apr 2010 05:23

Good news on Arjun!

GD,

What are those cool looking explosive cables? I have seen those used during first and second gulf war too. Interesting stuff!!!

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 14 Apr 2010 05:35

rohitvats wrote:
Ankit Desai wrote:Army to purchase more Arjun tanks
any more delay and given the contrary articles in media, we might have couple of BRFites popping the vein any time soon now....

Just to be precise, one pops an artery....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2010 06:44

katare you might have seen the older british giant viper system in 1st gulf war.
by exploding a couple of parallel cables they are able to clear most mines in one
shot, then a couple of tanks with mine ploughs fitted lead the way for the rest
of column.

for deep minefields this might need to be done multiple times.

perhaps a ex-IA member could throw more light on what we have.

for us, the more difficult problem is probably deep canals with steep banks.
pakis dont have much water so the option of flooding them to high levels is
going out year after year

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2010 07:17

So the new Arjun will be the Mk2 variant

1 ) It can fire LAHAT ATGM ( How does lahat compare with Russian ATGM on T-90 ?)
2 ) Has additional armour ( ERA ) , it mentions the russian ones ,Kaktus ?
3 ) So at 60 T it will have 1500 HP engine , is this the same turbocharged 1400 HP engine , much like the current MK1 has or a new one ?
4 ) Has CITI sight.

Sounds good , lets hope the Army orders the right numbers , probably they may go for 124 more Arjun of Mk2 type.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2010 07:22

Austin wrote:So the new Arjun will be the Mk2 variant

1 ) It can fire LAHAT ATGM ( How does lahat compare with Russian ATGM on T-90 ?)
2 ) Has additional armour ( ERA ) , it mentions the russian ones ,Kaktus ?
3 ) So at 60 T it will have 1500 HP engine , is this the same turbocharged 1400 HP engine , much like the current MK1 has or a new one ?
4 ) Has CITI sight.

Sounds good , lets hope the Army orders the right numbers , probably they may go for 124 more Arjun of Mk2 type.

Austin, that hope gives it away - only 124 out of a fleet of 4,000 Tanks. No point in developing a Mk2 for 124 tanks. About 1500 T-90s have already been ordered.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 14 Apr 2010 07:42

Army to purchase more Arjun tanks

The addition of two tonnes of ERA will increase the weight of the Arjun to just over 60 tonnes, making it one of the world’s heaviest tanks. But, the DRDO claims that its powerful 1,500-Horse Power engine easily handles the extra weight.

Few in IA griped about Arjun at 58 tons is too heavy, hence incompetent and now the beast has only grown much fatter and stronger. I hope they don't find this as an excuse.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 14 Apr 2010 07:46

1000 - 1200 Arjuns would good enough and can replace the Vickers tank and t-55s. It can form the backbone of the Strike Corps.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2010 08:41

Vivek K wrote:Austin, that hope gives it away - only 124 out of a fleet of 4,000 Tanks. No point in developing a Mk2 for 124 tanks. About 1500 T-90s have already been ordered.

Vivek , I think the 124 number is based on my assesment that the army may want to order in batches of 124 , who knows it could go to as high as 500 Mk2. The Mk2 capability can then be backfitted to the 124 Arjun Mk1 now on order when they go for major overhaul.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Apr 2010 08:45

I wouldn't call 500 "as high". it's more "as low as 500" for a force of 4000 tanks that most likely will be expanded to 5000.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 14 Apr 2010 09:20

^^

For the start, anything is fine.
If the Army is cribbing about logistics, let them build it up now along with a multi-year purchase of Arjuns.
They keep returning money to the Finance ministry every year. One wonders if DGMF never ever
dreamt that they could actually have a heavy tank force at their disposal ....

These reports and panwala news though, sound like a game of one upmanship being
played through the media by both the sides.
DRDO keeping mum however is good news. Kind of, "We have done our job, the
ball is in in your court now.".

~Ashish

PS: Lets just hope for the best.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 14 Apr 2010 10:00

If true - this is really one of the sweetest news for jingos..

Slowly the indigenous R&D systems are showing the maturity..

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2010 10:16

Austin wrote:
Vivek , I think the 124 number is based on my assesment that the army may want to order in batches of 124 , who knows it could go to as high as 500 Mk2. The Mk2 capability can then be backfitted to the 124 Arjun Mk1 now on order when they go for major overhaul.

Now you're talking Austin Garu!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2010 10:49

let hope things are finalized on paper and ink soon.

I need to see the wedge shaped turret and dual thermals , rear view cameras and
remote weapons station , plus 1500hp mtu diesel on mk2 before retiring from br.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Apr 2010 11:20

What about modular armour??

Allows you to send it seperately and add it at end.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2010 11:53

yes merkava style module armour looks really cool. my fav turrets are the strv122 and
merkava4 though the m1a2 also looks menacing if plain.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Apr 2010 18:16

While one is very satisfied with Arjun making the grade and the IA ready to order more,"50 tanks per year in two shifts" is unacceptable.This is a very low production rate,indicating that in 5 years time,only from 2011+ onwards,we will not be able to produce more than 250 Arjuns,and only in 10 years time we will have built only 500 Arjuns! This will amount to being only 10-12.5% of the entire armoured corps.Surely it stands to reason that by 2020 the Arjun's design will be obsolete,even the T-90s somewhat long in the tooth.The world's manufacturers/armies would've gone beyond the Challengers,Abrams,Leopards and T-90s ,Arjuns of today and brought out a new FMBT for their respective armoured formations.Somewhere in the past there was an item in which the DRDO said that a minimum order of "400"(?) more Arjuns would be required for it to break even on the Arjun project.If these extra tanks were to appear within 5 years instead of 10,it would be worthwhile.One would rather prefer to wait for a new FMBT design to arrive ,JV of Arjun Mk-2,instead of building more Arjun Mk-1s at snail's pace.

PS:Earlier reports had it that CVRDE/Avadi had too much work to handle.T-90 assembly,Arjun production,T-72 upgrades.The plans to upgrade old T-72s must be reviewed in the light of these production figures as it is far more worthwhile to have new Arjuns than limited upgrades of older T-72s.This way,the Arjun production rate can thus improve and the tank inducted at a faster rate.This however will have definite implications in the IA's budget as new Arjuns will cost a lot more than upgrades for T-72s.A balance must be struck with the IA's need for numbers and quality.In any case,production capacity for tanks and other armoured vehicles must be increased somehow,especially if we are going to use the Arjun Chassis for SP artillery.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Apr 2010 18:20

"50 tanks per year in two shifts" is unacceptable. ...

One would rather prefer to wait for a new FMBT design to arrive instead of building more Arjuns at snail's pace.

Read together, these two lines are contradictory and make no sense.

You need more capacity. Period. Whether you have an FMBT design or not is a separate issue.

Let us assume that the Army (after Tuffy and Huffy) miraculously comes up with a FMBT specification (or more realistically goes to Nizhny Tagil and gets a photocopy of their scrapped T-XX whatever ding dong), you still will be able to produce the exact same 50 tanks per year in two shifts.. So how "acceptable" is that?.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Apr 2010 19:02

Pl. read the PS.Tank production has to be ramped up whatever tanks are being built or upgraded.We should aim to have production capacity for at least 100 tanks per yr.,apart from SP artillery,light tanks/IFVs,specialist vehicles like bridging tanks,mine clearance tanks,and other mechanised armour.One wonders which came first,"chicken or egg",when deciding which to buy local or foreign,but with such a production rate how on earth will we ever be able to indiginise/poduce the required target of "70%" at home and replace older tanks which are arriving at obsolescence? This is probably why the IA prefers to buy tanks from abroad (Russia) where the production rate is fast and the onus is on the foreign manufacturer to deliver on time instead of dealing with a local PSU which has little accountability if it defaults and can argue its case at home,as we've seen with the LCA.In the case of the delayed Talwars-first batch because of Shtil integration problems,the manufacturer reportedly accepted a penalty and extended the warranty period suitably as compensation.We are not privy to the Gorky enigma,but one is sure that there must be some compensation agreed to for the price hike and delayed delivery.One is not sure what is happening to the Hawks and Scorpenes though.In the case of the latter,it appears to be mostly our fault.Medak was supposedly building armoured infantry vehicles,can it be upgraded to also build tanks?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Apr 2010 19:51

Surely it stands to reason that by 2020 the Arjun's design will be obsolete,even the T-90s somewhat long in the tooth.

This equal equal is sickening.

Or worse it suggests that the T 90 is better

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Apr 2010 20:29

Surely it stands to reason that by 2020 the Arjun's design will be obsolete,even the T-90s somewhat long in the tooth

the T-90 is obsolete now, we don't have to wait till 2020.

The world's manufacturers/armies would've gone beyond the Challengers,Abrams,Leopards and T-90s ,Arjuns of today and brought out a new FMBT for their respective armoured formations.

not even an iota of evidence that is going to happen by 2030, let alone 2020. abrams variants are expected to continue well into the 2030's and even beyond.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Apr 2010 20:34

While one is very satisfied with Arjun making the grade and the IA ready to order more,"50 tanks per year in two shifts" is unacceptable.This is a very low production rate,indicating that in 5 years time,only from 2011+ onwards,we will not be able to produce more than 250 Arjuns,and only in 10 years time we will have built only 500 Arjuns! This will amount to being only 10-12.5% of the entire armoured corps.

Sir, you do realize that this situation is as of now and can be improved if the situation so demands.Something like, IA ordering ~450x2 Arjun tanks for two new armored divisions, right? We don't even know the budgeted purchase by IA for the coming 5 year plans for the Arjun...

Surely it stands to reason that by 2020 the Arjun's design will be obsolete,even the T-90s somewhat long in the tooth.

You sure are smoking something very potent, sir. Something which can induce such kind of hallucinations....truly amazing

The T-90 design was DOA - Dead on Arrival...but then, facts like that must be something difficult to understand given the sensory overload due to the potent stuff you're on...

Somewhere in the past there was an item in which the DRDO said that a minimum order of "400"(?) more Arjuns would be required for it to break even on the Arjun project.If these extra tanks were to appear within 5 years instead of 10,it would be worthwhile.One would rather prefer to wait for a new FMBT design to arrive ,JV of Arjun Mk-2,instead of building more Arjun Mk-1s at snail's pace.

If the basic problem is about the production facilities at HVF, how will it matter whether we induct FMBT or nay other MBT?

BTW, for the planned SPH on Arjun chassis, the same was to be produced by BHEL to not interfere with HVF Production line for MBT.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2010 20:38

tanks and transport a/c are two items with many iterations and long service life.
"if it aint broke , dont fix it" seems to apply strongly there, rather than a rush to change for the sake of change.

the C130 and B52 are expected to remain in service until around 2040 apparently...with the B52 (first flight 1952) lifespan being 90 years!! other like
tu95 and c130 have also completed 50 years of service already.

The speed of the B-1 Lancer and the stealth of the B-2 Spirit have only been useful until enemy air defenses were destroyed, a task that has been swiftly achieved in recent conflicts. The B-52 boasts the highest mission capable rate of the three types of heavy bombers operated by the USAF. Whereas the B-1 averages a 53% ready rate, and the B-2 achieved a 26%, the B-52 averages 80% as of 2001.

likewise the abrams, leopard and merkava will probably around beyond most of our
remaining lifespans!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2010 20:55

Rohit, old habits die hard. But they will die for Arjun is the future for the IA.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 14 Apr 2010 23:24

Some of the latest tanks are Turkish, Japanese and off course Korean tank all of which have adopted Arjun style lay out which clearly shows that this design has no immediate replacement or in any case is still the only preferred design. Both US and Russia have killed their FMBT after spending Billions of Dollars on it. Hence all this business of Arjun being obsolete is nonsense.