Managing Pakistan's failure

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RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

shiv saar,

you're free to call Americans whatever you want! I have no problem with that. BTW I don't believe that Americans are only amoral and not immoral. History is littered with facts that Americans are immoral, how they cut down the native Americans, how they have been conducting their wars around the world, and killing millions from Japan to Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq to Libya! One just needs to see the photos from Abu Ghraib to see their levels of morality!

I presume, you love to paint others as defenders of America. You ask why people get upset! I don't know who gets upset! Nobody is I think!

But people do not like mischaracterization of the facts, because at an intellectual level it creates axioms from which wrong conclusions would be made in the future! Also people have a problem with logical inconsistency.

You are saying "A is racist, B hangs around with A =>> B is racist!" What kind of logic is that? B can be A's mother, naukar, boss, or something else! One doesn't know why B chooses to hang around with A!

If you want to call B racist, then do so, but also qualify the habit by saying it is "useful propaganda" and not some "analytic conclusion"! And please don't demand that Pakistanis should be called "secular enemies of India"! :roll:
shiv
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: But people do not like mischaracterization of the facts, because at an intellectual level it creates axioms from which wrong conclusions would be made in the future!
Wrong and right are a matter of opinions. And those opinions make history. First the British mischaracterized Hindus as racist and then assisted Muslims to escape from those racists. Then the US mischaracterized India as a vassal of the Soviet empire, and that justified US aid to racist Pakistan.

What the hell is this racist immoral USA doing in the Indian subcontinent? This is a question that I would like to ask 1 billion Indians - or at least a few hundred million thinking Indians to ask themselves. A complaint is always information. Often it is "First information". I am sure you know that a police complaint is called a "First Information Report". The argument that one must not complain is fake. It is one that is indoctrinated into children who may later hide sexual abuse because they "must not complain". That is nonsense.
Pranav
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: What the hell is this racist immoral USA doing in the Indian subcontinent?
The same as what it was doing in the former Yugoslavia, for example.

Your takleef with the US is valid but somewhat misdirected. Calling it white Christian imperialism is like the blind man of Hindoostan, who thought the elephant was like a rope.

Understanding western elites, their motives and modus operandi, is a major subject in itself; that is what the India and the New World Order thread is about.

One has to engage with the west with clear eyed realism. There is scope for collaboration, and it is not productive to take a petulant attitude. (And the same applies to our policies towards residents of the area currently known as Pakistan!)
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

shiv wrote: In 1999 Pakistans sent "infiltrators" while Indian positions were pinned down using accurate US made weapons locating radars and artillery fire
About ~550 Indian soldiers were killed during the Kargil war. How many of these deaths could be attributed to artillery fire?
ShauryaT
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
shiv wrote: In 1999 Pakistans sent "infiltrators" while Indian positions were pinned down using accurate US made weapons locating radars and artillery fire
About ~550 Indian soldiers were killed during the Kargil war. How many of these deaths could be attributed to artillery fire?
This question is trying to split hair. Were it not for the Bhe*cho*giri of the US for 50 years with TSP, Kargil would have never happened. IOW: How many Indians have to die before reaching the conclusion of US culpability in Indian affairs.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Hardly. Maybe you don't have an answer?

Whether Kargil would have happened without US help is a hypothetical question. All kinds of answers can be provided.

We can agree that Pakis would have been weaker without US help. The task is to quantify their weakness.
ShauryaT
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ShauryaT »

abhishek_sharma wrote: Whether Kargil would have happened without US help is a hypothetical question. All kinds of answers can be provided.

We can agree that Pakis would have been weaker without US help. The task is to quantify their weakness.
Yes - they would have never dared to punch above their weight. The history of our sub continent would have been different. I hope you are well familiar with the central role the US has played in TSP, since the CENTO days, including their complicity in nuclear arming the nation.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Yes, I am familiar with US role in Pakistan.

>> Yes - they would have never dared to punch above their weight.

This is your opinion.
A_Gupta
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

brihaspati
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Continuing the tables for major conventional arms supplies to Pakistan by nations:

France [White Christian]
R: Pakistan (225) AM-50 120mm Mortar (1965) 1966-1970 (225)
3 Daphne Submarine (1967) 1970 3 Pakistani designation Hangor Class
(18) E-14 AS torpedo (1967) 1970 (18) For 3 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarines
(18) E-15 AS torpedo (1967) 1970 (18) For 3 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarines
(18) L-3 ASW torpedo (1967) 1970 (18) For 3 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarines
24 Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 1967 1968 24 Mirage-3EP version; incl 3 Mirage-3RP reconnaissance and 3 Mirage-3DP version
(40) R-530 BVRAAM (1967) 1968 (40) For Mirage-3E combat aircraft
4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1967) 1968 4 For SAR
36 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1968 1972-1982 (36) Assembled in Pakistan
30 Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1970 1971-1972 (30) Mirage-5PA version; incl 2 Mirage-5DPA version
(40) AM-39 Exocet Anti-ship missile (1974) 1975 (40) Incl for SH-3D helicopters
3 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1974 1975-1976 3 Ex-French; modernized before delivery
(11) Crotale SAM system 1974 1976-1978 (11) 'Pasban' programme
(300) R-440 Crotale SAM 1974 1977-1978 (300)
(6) E-14 AS torpedo (1975) 1975 (6) For 1 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarine
(6) E-15 AS torpedo (1975) 1975 (6) For 1 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarine
(6) L-3 ASW torpedo (1975) 1975 (6) For 1 Daphne (Hangor) Class submarine
10 Mirage-3E FGA aircraft 1975 1977 10 Mirage-3RD reconnaissance version
(32) SA-330 Puma Helicopter 1976 1978-1979 (32) SA-330L version
2 Agosta Submarine 1978 1979-1980 2 Originally built for South Africa but embargoed and bought by Pakistan; Pakistani designation Hashmat
(80) F-17P AS torpedo (1978) 1979 (40) For 2 Agosta (Hashmat) Class submarines; could incl E14, E15 and/or L3 torpedoes
32 Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1979 1980-1983 (32) $343 m deal; Mirage-5PA-3 maritime attack version; incl 2 Mirage-5DPA-2
(192) R-550 Magic-1 SRAAM 1979 1980-1983 (192) For Mirage-5 combat aircraft
(40) AM-39 Exocet Anti-ship missile (1980) 1982-1983 (40) For Mirage-5 combat aircraft and SH-3D helicopters
1 Crotale SAM system (1983) 1985 1
100 AS-30L ASM (1985) 1986-1987 (100)
(20) ATLIS Aircraft EO system (1985) 1986-1987 (20) For F-16 combat aircraft
2 Falcon-20 Light transport ac (1985) 1986 2
(20) SA-315B Lama Light helicopter (1985) 1987-1988 (20)
1 Atlantic ASW aircraft 1988 1988 1 Ex-French; modernized before delivery
6 DRPT-5 Rasit Ground surv radar 1988 1989-1991 (6)
7 Ocean Master MP aircraft radar 1990 1995-1999 (7) For modernization of 4 Atlantic ASW/MP aircraft and 3 F-27 Maritime MP aircraft
(100) Mistral Portable SAM (1991) 1994-1995 (100)
12 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 1992 1992-1993 (12) Deal worth $18.9 m
3 Tripartite MCM ship 1992 1992-1998 3 Incl 1 assembled in Pakistan and 1 ex-French (but only 3 years old when transferred); Pakistani designation Munsif Class
(25) SM-39 Exocet Anti-ship missile 1994 1999-2006 (25) $100 m deal; for Agosta-90B (Khalid) submarines
(100) F-17P AS torpedo (1996) 1999-2006 (100) F-17P Mod-2 version; for Agosta-90B (Khalid) submarines
(40) Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 1996 1998-2004 (40) Ex-French; $120 m 'Blue Flash-6' deal; modernized (ROSE-2 and ROSE-3 programme) before delivery; incl 6 Mirage-3D
2 ATAS Sonar (1999) 2000-2001 (2) For modernization of 2 Amazon (Tariq) frigates
10 AS-350/AS-550 Fennec Light helicopter 2004 2006 10 AS-350B3 version
8 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2008 (8) Ex-French; SA-319B version
10 AS-350/AS-550 Fennec Light helicopter (2007) 2010 (10) Armed AS-550C3 version
2 MESMA AIP engine 2007 For modernization of 2 Agosta-90B submarines

L: Pakistan 2 Agosta-90B Submarine 1994 1999-2003 2 Part of $750 m deal (+ $200 m for modernization of Pakistan Naval Dockyard to build submarines; 1 assembled/produced in Pakistan); Pakistani designation Khalid
1 Agosta-90B MESMA Submarine 1994 2008 1 Part of $750 m deal (+ $200 m for modernization of Pakistan Naval Dockyard to build submarines); Pakistani designation Khalid
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Germany (FRG) [white Christian]
R: Pakistan 90 F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft (1965) 1966 90 Ex-FRG; officially bought by Iran, but transferred to Pakistan
(100) UR-416 APC/ISV (1972) 1973-1976 (100) Incl for border guard; incl version with 20mm gun
(45) DR-161/MPDR-45 Air search radar (1977) 1979-1981 (45) MPDR-45E version; incl MPDR-60
(5) DR-172/MPDR-90 Air search radar (1977) 1979-1980 (5)
(15) SUT AS/ASW torpedo (1989) 1990-1991 (15) For MG-110 midget submarines
4 MTU-538 Diesel engine 1990 1997-1999 4 For 2 Jalalat FAC produced in Pakistan; designation uncertain
4 MTU-538 Diesel engine (2003) 2006 4 For 2 Jalalat FAC produced in Pakistan
59 DM-2A4 Seehecht AS/ASW torpedo 2005 2007-2008 (59) $80 m deal; for Agosta-90B (Khalid) submarines
(30) Luna UAV 2006 2007-2008 (30) For 3 Luna UAV systems; delivery temporarily delayed after Pakistani state of emergency in 2007
4 MTU-4000 Diesel engine 2006 2007-2008 4 For MRTP-33 FAC delivered by Turkey
(250) M-113 APC (2007) Ex-FRG; status uncertain after German government halted deliveries in late 2007

L: Pakistan (3500) Cobra Anti-tank missile 1963 1965-1979 (3500) Most probably assembled/produced in Pakistan; Cobra-1600 and Cobra-2000 version
-----------------------------------------
Indonesia [non-white non-Christian completely-non-stereotypical-Islamist with great respect and friendship for India]
R: Pakistan (32) PT-76 Light tank (1968) 1969-1970 (32) Supplier uncertain; second-hand
3 CN-235 Transport aircraft 2002 2004 (3) Part of $49-54 m deal (incl $24 m for 1 more for VIP transport); CN-235-220 version
--------------------------------------------------------
Iran [non-white non-Christian and an all-weather friend of India]
R: Pakistan (3) C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft (1966) 1967 (3) Ex-Iranian
10 Bell-205/UH-1D Helicopter (1974) 1974-1975 (10) Ex-Iranian; aid; AB-205 version
5 C-130E Hercules Transport aircraft (1974) 1974 5 Ex-Iranian
-----------------------------------------------------
Italy [white Christian and the seat of global peace and enlightenment]
R: Pakistan (50) Model-56 105mm Towed gun (1975) 1975-1978 (50)
(12) A-244 324mm ASW torpedo (1987) 1989 (12)
(2) Argos-73 Air search radar (1998) 1999-2000 (2)
25 Falco UAV 2006 2008-2009 (25) Incl assembly in Pakistan
200 Aspide-2000 SAM 2007 2010 (60) Part of EUR415 m deal for Spada-2000 SAM systems
(10) Spada-2000 SAM system 2007 2010 (3) EUR415 m deal; Spada-2000 Plus version; delivery 2010-2013

L: Pakistan 3 MG-110 Midget submarine (1989) 1990-1991 (3) Assembled from kits in Pakistan
(135) Grifo Aircraft radar 1995 2000-2004 (135) Grifo-7 version; for modernization of some 35 Mirage-3 and 100 F-7P combat aircraft
(57) Grifo Aircraft radar (2002) 2004-2005 (57) Grifo-7PG version; for 57 F-7MG (F-7PG) combat aircraft from China
(25) Falco UAV 2009 2010 (12) Including production of components and assembly in Pakistan
brihaspati
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Major conventional Arms supplies to Pakistan by nations from 1950-2010
----------------------------------------------
Jordan [non-white non-Christian]
R: Pakistan 10 F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1971 1971 (10) Ex-Jordanian; loan (returned to Jordan 1972)

Lebanon [non-white partly-Christian but slightly majority Islamist after periodic cleansings and for whom India has great sympathies because of Israeli inhumanities]
R: Pakistan (10) Mirage-3E FGA aircraft (2000) 2002 10 Ex-Lebanese; $4.7 m deal; Mirage-3EL version; incl 1 Mirage-3BL
--------------------------------------------------------
Libya [non-white non-Christian and for which India tried its best]
R: Pakistan 150 Atar-9 Turbojet 2004 2004-2005 (150) Ex-Libyan but probably never used
(10) Mirage-5 FGA aircraft 2004 2007-2010 (10) Ex-Libyan; 50-70 delivered but most for spare parts only
----------------------------------------------------------
Netherlands [white Christian]
R: Pakistan (3) DA-08 Air search radar 1994 1997-1998 (3) For modernization of 3 Tariq (Amazon) frigates
1 Poolster Support ship 1994 1994 1 Ex-Dutch; HFL9.7m ($5.3 m) deal; Pakistani designation Moawin
4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1994) 1995 4 Ex-Dutch
------------------------------------------------------------
New Zealand [white Christian]
R: Pakistan 1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft 1991 1992 1 Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UK; modernized in UK before delivery; incl for MP
1 F-27 Friendship Transport aircraft (1994) 1994 1 Second-hand; F-27 Mk-100 version; bought via UK company; modernized in UK before delivery; incl for MP
------------------------------------------------
North Korea [non-white non-Christian and in the past a good friend]
R: Pakistan (2) Rodong SSM (1993) 1996-1997 (2) Status uncertain; possibly also produced in Pakistan as Ghauri-1 and Ghauri-2 or Hatf-5
-------------------------------------------------
Portugal [white Christian]
R: Pakistan 1 Daphne Submarine 1975 1975 1 Ex-Portugese; Pakistani designation Hangor
-----------------------------------------------------
Romania [white Christian and a friend]
R: Pakistan 4 SA-330 Puma Helicopter (1987) 1988 4 IAR-330 version
--------------------------------------------------------
Russia [white Christian and an all weather friend]
R: Pakistan 12 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 1995 1996 12 $32 m deal
5 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter (1995) 1995 5 $4.2 m deal; incl for SAR and VIP transport; ordered via Danish company
12 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2001 2002 (12) Part of $50 m deal; delivery delayed after Indian complaints from 2001 until 2002-2003
4 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2001 2002 4 Second-hand; modernized before delivery; part of $50 m deal
12 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter (2003) 2004 12 Part of $51 m deal; 1 more delivered for VIP transport; ordered via UK company
(50) RD-33/RD-93 Turbofan (2004) 2007-2010 (22) RD-93 version; for JF-17 combat aircraft from China
----------------------------------------------------
Slovakia [white Christian ]
R: Pakistan 6 OT-64C APC (1993) 1993 6 Ex-Slovak; designation uncertain
-----------------------------------------------------
Sweden [white Christian]
R: Pakistan 15 MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft 1973 1974-1976 (15) Pakistani designation Mushshak
(680) RBS-70 Portable SAM 1984 1986-1987 (680) Part of $91 m deal (incl 144 launchers); incl assembly in Pakistan; no. could be 824
(8) Giraffe-40 Air search radar 1986 1987-1988 (8) Part of $91 m deal
(2) Giraffe-40 Air search radar 1993 1993 (2)
(25) Type-43 ASW torpedo 1994 1999-2004 (25) Type-43X2 version; for modernized Amazon (Tariq) frigates
1 Saab-2000 Transport aircraft 2006 2008 1 Second-hand; modernized before delivery
4 Saab-2000 AEW AEW&C aircraft 2006 2009-2010 (4) Original SEK8.3 b deal for 6-8 reduced to SEK7 b deal for 4

L: Pakistan (242) MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft 1974 1975-1997 (242) 92 assembled from kits and rest produced in Pakistan; Pakistani designation Mushshak
. . RBS-70 Portable SAM (1985) 1988-2010 (575)
(150) MFI-17 Supporter Trainer aircraft (2001) 2001-2010 (106) Super Mushshak version
---------------------------------------------------------
Switzerland [white Christian]
R: Pakistan (200) GDF 35mm AA gun (1981) 1983-1988 (200) GDF-002 version
(10) Skyguard Fire control radar 1981 1983-1984 (10) For use with GDF-002 35mm AA guns
(100) Skyguard Fire control radar (1988) 1989-1996 (100) For use with GDF-002 35mm AA guns; assembled in Pakistan
(48) GDF 35mm AA gun 2006 2007-2009 (48) Part of CHF156 m ($120 m) deal
(24) Skyguard Fire control radar 2006 2007-2009 (24) Part of CHF156 m ($120 m) deal; for use with GDF 35mm AA guns
------------------------------------------------
Turkey [non-Christian non-white "secular" ]
R: Pakistan (50) Shorland APC/ISV (1994) 1995-1996 (50) Shorland S-55 version; incl for police
2 MRTP-33 FAC/patrol craft 2006 2007-2008 2 Pakistani designation Kaan-33
12 Panter 155mm Towed gun (2007) 2009 (12)
-----------------------------------------------------
UAE [non-white non-Christian Islamic +friendly]
R: Pakistan 4 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1987) 1987 4 Ex-UAE; aid
------------------------------------------------------
UK [white Christian and a great friend]
R: Pakistan (75) Bristol-170 Freighter Transport aircraft (1949) 1950-1955 (75)
(90) Fury Fighter aircraft 1949 1950-1952 (90) Sea Fury Mk-60 version; incl 5 T-61 trainer version
1 O Class Destroyer 1949 1951 1 Ex-UK; Pakistani designation Tariq
5 Sealand Light transport ac (1949) 1950-1952 (5)
36 Attacker Fighter aicraft (1950) 1951-1953 (36)
(3) Type-13 Air search radar 1951 1952 (3)
(3) Type-14 Air search radar 1951 1952 (3)
(2) Auster AOP Light aircraft (1953) 1953 2
1 EWP Destroyer (1953) 1954 1 Ex-UK; loan; Ch version; Pakistani designation Taimar
(10) Ferret Reconnaissance AV (1953) 1954 (10)
5 Fury Fighter aircraft 1953 1953-1954 (5) Ex-UK, Sea Fury version
(2) Type-15 Air search radar 1954 1955-1956 (2)
1 Bellona Cruiser 1955 1956 1 Ex-UK; modernized before delivery; Pakistani designation Babur
2 Battle Destroyer 1956 1957 2 Ex-UK; modernized before delivery; financed by US 'MDAP' aid
2 102mm Mk-16 Naval gun 1957 1958 (2) Probably ex-UK guns modernized before delivery; for modernization of 2 O Class destroyers
3 EWP Destroyer (1957) 1958 3 Ex-UK; modernized before delivery; financed by US 'MDAP' aid; incl 2 Cr and 1 Ch version
4 Town Patrol craft 1963 1965 4
3 Condor Air search radar 1966 1968 3
9 AR-1 Air search radar (1967) 1968-1969 (9) Incl 3 AR-15 version
1 HF-200 Height-finding radar (1967) 1967 1
6 Sea King HAS-1 ASW helicopter (1973) 1974 (6) Sea King Mk-45 version
1 County Destroyer 1981 1982 1 Ex-UK; modernized before delivery; Pakistani designation Babur
(16) Sea Cat SAM (1981) 1982 (16) For County Class destroyer
(10) Hussar APC/ISV (1987) 1988 (10) For police
20 Transac GS APC/ISV (1987) 1988 20
2 Leander Frigate 1988 1988 2 Ex-UK; Pakistani designation Zulfiquar
(24) Sea Cat SAM 1988 1988 (24) For 2 Leander (Zulfiquar) Class frigates
1 Sea King HAR-3 Helicopter 1989 1989 1 Ex-UK; Sea King HAS-5 ASW version modified to Sea King Mk-45A before delivery (ASW equipment removed)
24 Shorland APC/ISV 1990 1990-1991 (24) Shorland S-55 version; for police
1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft (1992) 1993 1 For coast guard
6 Amazon Frigate 1993 1993-1994 6 Ex-UK; deal worth $90 m; Pakistani designation Tariq Class
(24) Sea Cat SAM 1993 1993 (24) For 2 Leander (Zulfiquar) Class frigates
1 BN-2 Maritime MP aircraft 1994 1994 1 $1.4 m deal; for coast guard
3 Lynx ASW helicopter 1994 1994 3 Ex-UK; Lynx HAS-3 version; option on 3 more
--------------------------------------------
Ukraine [white Christian]
R: Pakistan 320 T-80U Tank 1996 1997-1999 320 $580-650 m deal; incl 50 ex-Ukrainian (but probably not much used); T-80UD version
(320) 5TDF Diesel engine (2000) 2004-2007 (320) For modernization of Type-59 tanks to Al Zarrar; no. could be up to 400
315 6TD Diesel engine 2002 2004-2010 (195) $150 m deal; for Type-90-2 (MBT-2000 or Al Khalid) tanks from China
4 Il-78M/Midas Tanker/transport ac (2006) 2009-2010 2 Ex-Ukrainian
brihaspati
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Major conventional arms supplies to Pakistan by nations - 1950-2010
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
USA [ white^N and Christian^N as N goes to infinity so that all other white-Christian suppliers of Pakistan seem non-white and non-Christian]
R: Pakistan (100) M-4 Sherman Tank (1948) 1950 (100) Ex-US
(10) M-32 ARV (1949) 1950 (10) Probably ex-US
1 Hiller-12/OH-23 Raven Light helicopter 1951 1952 1
(150) M-24 Chaffee Light tank (1953) 1954-1955 (150) Ex-US
(50) M-41 Walker Bulldog Light tank (1953) 1954-1955 (50)
(80) F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft 1954 1956-1958 (80) Ex-US; modernized before delivery; 'MAP' aid
40 F-86F Sabre Fighter aircraft (1954) 1957-1958 (40) 'MAP' aid
(26) M-115 203mm Towed gun (1954) 1955-1958 (26) Ex-US
(345) M-47 Patton Tank (1954) 1955-1960 (345) Ex-US
(30) M-59 155mm Towed gun (1954) 1954-1956 (30) Ex-US
(150) M-7 105mm Self-propelled gun (1954) 1955-1956 (150) Ex-US
(15) T-33A T-Bird Trainer aircraft 1954 1955-1956 (15) Ex-US; 'MAP' aid; no. could be 32
8 Adjutant Minesweeper 1955 1955-1963 8 'MAP' aid
(300) M-101A1 105mm Towed gun 1955 1955-1957 (300) Ex-US; aid
(25) M-19 40mm SPAAG (1955) 1955 (25) Ex-US
4 HU-16B Albatross MP/transport ac (1956) 1956-1957 (4) Ex-US; SA-16A SAR version
(25) M-36 Jackson Tank (1956) 1958 (25) Ex-US
6 RT-33A T-Bird Reconnaissance ac (1956) 1957 6 'MAP' aid
8 S-55/H-19 Chickasaw Helicopter 1956 1958 8 For SAR; 'MAP' aid
60 O-1/L-19 Bird Dog Light aircraft (1957) 1957-1958 (60) Probably ex-US (but maximum few years old); 'MDAP' aid
4 S-55/H-19 Chickasaw Helicopter (1957) 1957 (4)
(500) AIM-9B Sidewinder-1A SRAAM (1958) 1959-1963 (500) For F-86, F-104 and F-6 combat aircraft
26 Canberra B-57B Bomber aircraft (1958) 1959 26 Ex-US (but only few years old); 'MAP' aid; incl 2 B-57C trainer version
2 AN/FPS-20 Air search radar (1959) 1960 2 'MAP' aid
2 AN/FPS-6 Height-finding radar (1959) 1960 2 'MAP' aid
1 Bonanza Light aircraft (1959) 1960 1 Bonanza V-35 version
1 Navajo/ATF Tug 1959 1959 1 Ex-US; Paksitani designation Madadgar
(12) F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1960 1961-1962 (12) Ex-US; modernized before delivery; incl 2 F-104B
(60) M-114A1 155mm Towed gun (1960) 1960-1963 (60) Ex-US
(200) M-48A1 Patton Tank (1960) 1961-1964 (200) Ex-US
(10) T-6 Texan Trainer aircraft (1960) 1960 (10) Ex-US
4 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft (1962) 1963 4 'MAP' aid
(6) HH-43B/F Huskie Helicopter (1962) 1963-1964 (6) For SAR; 'MAP' aid; HH-43F version
109 M-113 APC (1962) 1963-1964 (109)
1 Mission Oiler (1962) 1963 1 Ex-US; loan until bought in 1975; Pakistani designation Dacca
2 Queen Air Light transport ac (1962) 1963 2 Second-hand
27 T-37B Trainer aircraft (1962) 1963-1967 (27) 'MAP' aid; T-37C version
(18) Bell-47/OH-13 Light helicopter (1963) 1964 (18) Ex-US; 'MAP' aid; no. could be up to 32
1 Tench Submarine (1963) 1964 1 Ex-US; Pakistani designation Ghazi
1 Twin Bonanza Light transport ac (1963) 1964 1 U-8F version
(50) Mk-44 ASW torpedo (1964) 1965-1966 (50)
1 Commander-680FL Light transport ac (1965) 1966 1 For VIP transport; Commander-690C version
(1) RB-57F Canberra Reconnaissance ac 1965 1965 (1) Ex-US B-57/RB-57 rebuilt to RB-57F
1 Travel Air Light transport ac (1965) 1966 1
12 T-37B Trainer aircraft (1968) 1970-1976 12 'MAP' aid, T-37C version
(5) O-1/L-19 Bird Dog Light aircraft (1971) 1972 (5) Assembled in Pakistan
6 Bell-205/UH-1H Helicopter 1973 1973 6 Ex-US; aid
2 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft (1973) 1974-1975 2 Ex-US
300 M-113 APC (1973) 1973-1975 (300) M-113A1 version
(500) AIM-9J/P Sidewinder SRAAM 1974 1974 (500) Ex-US AIM-9B version modernized after delivery to AIM-9J in Pakistan with US-supplied compoments
5 Cessna-172/T-41 Trainer/light ac (1974) 1975 5
6 T-37B Trainer aircraft (1974) 1975 6 Ex-US
12 Bell-206/OH-58 Light helicopter 1975 1976 12 Bell-206A version
16 T-37B Trainer aircraft (1976) 1977 (16) Ex-US; lease
2 Gearing FRAM-1 Destroyer 1977 1978 2 Ex-US; modernized before delivery; Pakistani designation Tariq
230 M-113 APC (1977) 1979-1980 (230) M-113A1 version
100 Mk-46 ASW torpedo (1977) 1978-1980 (100)
2 PA-34 Seneca Light transport ac (1977) 1978 2
6 AN/TPS-43 Air search radar (1979) 1980-1981 (6) 'Crystal-2' programme; AN/TPS-43G version
1 Baron Light transport ac. (1979) 1980 1
3 C-130B Hercules Transport aircraft (1979) 1979-1981 3 Ex-US
6 T-37B Trainer aircraft (1979) 1980 6 Ex-US
2 Gearing FRAM-1 Destroyer 1980 1980 2 Ex-US; $0.4 m deal; Pakistani designation Tariq
10 Bell-209/AH-1S Combat helicopter 1981 1984-1985 10
1005 BGM-71 TOW Anti-tank missile 1981 1983-1986 (1005) For M-901 tank destroyers and Bell-209/AH-1S helicopters
40 F-16A FGA aircraft 1981 1983-1985 (40) $1.16 b 'Peace Gate-1' and 'Peace Gate-2' deal; F-16 Block-15 version; incl 11 F-16B
64 M-109A1 155mm Self-propelled gun 1981 1983-1984 (64) M-109A2 version
40 M-110A2 203mm Self-propelled gun 1981 1984-1985 (40)
75 M-198 155mm Towed gun 1981 1984-1986 (75)
100 M-48A5 Patton Tank 1981 1982-1983 (100) Ex-US
(52) M-88A1 ARV 1981 1984-1986 (52)
24 M-901 ITV Tank destroyer 1981 1984-1985 (24)
(9) AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar (1982) 1984-1985 (9)
10 Bell-209/AH-1S Combat helicopter 1982 1986 10
2 Gearing FRAM-1 Destroyer (1982) 1982-1983 2 Ex-US; Pakistani designation Tariq
36 M-109A1 155mm Self-propelled gun 1982 1984-1985 (36) $30 m deal; M-109A2 version
(100) AGM-65 Maverick ASM (1985) 1986-1987 (100) AGM-65B version
500 AIM-9L/M Sidewinder SRAAM 1985 1985-1987 (500) $50 m deal; AIM-9L version; incl for F-16A combat aircraft; delivered after Soviet aircraft from Afghanistan violated Pakistani airspace
4 AN/TPQ-37 Firefinder Arty locating radar (1985) 1987-1996 (4) Delivery of last embargoed between 1992 and 1995
(100) FIM-92 Stinger Portable SAM 1985 1985 (100) Taken by Pakistan from US aid destined forAfghan Mujahideen
(52) M-109A1 155mm Self-propelled gun (1985) 1988-1989 (52) M-109A2 version
110 M-113 APC (1985) 1986-1987 (110) $25 m deal; M-113A2 version
2030 BGM-71 TOW Anti-tank missile 1986 1987-1990 (2030) $20 m deal; BGM-71C ITOW version
(50) FIM-92 Stinger Portable SAM (1987) 1987 (50) Taken by Pakistan from US aid destined forAfghan Mujahideen
6 Mk-15 Phalanx CIWS (1987) 1987-1988 (6) For modernization of 6 Gearing (Tariq) destroyers
(20) RGM-84 Harpoon Anti-ship missile (1987) 1987-1988 20 For modernized Gearing destroyer
(360) AIM-9L/M Sidewinder SRAAM 1988 1996 (360) $20 m deal; AIM-9L version; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995
5 AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar 1988 1989 5
4 Brooke Frigate 1988 1989 4 Ex-US; 5-year lease; Pakistani designation Badr Class
4 Garcia Frigate 1988 1989 4 Ex-US; 5-year lease; Pakistani designation Saif Class
(25) M-198 155mm Towed gun 1988 1989 (25) Part of $40 m deal
24 M-198 155mm Towed gun 1988 1996 24 $19 m deal; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995
1 Mk-15 Phalanx CIWS (1988) 1988 1 For modernization of 1 Country (Babur) destroyer
3 P-3C Orion Update-2.5 ASW aircraft 1988 1996-1997 3 $139 m deal; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995; P-3C Orion Update-2.75 version
44 RGM-84 Harpoon Anti-ship missile 1988 1990-1991 (44) For modernized Gearing (Alamgir) destroyers
64 RIM-66B Standard-1MR SAM 1988 1989 64 For Brooke (Badr) frigates
1 Ajax Support ship 1989 1989 1 Ex-US repair ship; 5-year lease; Pakistani designation Moawin Class
4 AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder Arty locating radar (1990) 1996 (4) Deal worth $105 m; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995
28 RGM-84 Harpoon Anti-ship missile 1990 1996 (28) $31 m deal; AGM-84A version for P-3C ASW aircraft; delivery embargoed between 1992 and 1995
(250) 6V-53 Diesel engine (2000) 2005-2006 (250) For Talha APC and Al Qaswa ALV produced in Pakistan
5 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter (2001) 2002 5 Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; part of $73 m US; for Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol and anti-narcotics operations
3 Cessna-208 Caravan Light transport ac (2001) 2002 (3) For Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol and anti-narcotics operations
(100) Paveway Guided bomb (2001) 2002 (100) Paveway-2 version
6 CT-7 Turboprop 2002 2004 (6) For 3 CN-235 transport aircraft from Indonesia; CT-7-9C3 version
(59) T-37B Trainer aircraft 2003 2004 (59) Ex-US; aid; possibly incl some for spares
(20) Bell-209/AH-1F Cobra Combat helicopter 2004 2007 (12) Ex-US; modernized before delivery; status of last 8 uncertain; 20 more for spares only
26 Bell-412 Helicopter 2004 2004-2005 26 Originally $230 m deal for 2 year lease but given to Pakistan in 2007; from Canadian production line; for use in 'war on terrorism'; incl some for police; Bell-412EP version
(2014) BGM-71 TOW Anti-tank missile (2004) 2006-2008 (2014) $82 m deal; TOW-2A version; for AH-1 combat helicopters
6 C-130E Hercules Transport aircraft 2004 2005-2007 (6) Ex-Australian aircraft sold back to US producer and sold to Pakistan; $64 m deal; modernized before delivery; 1 more for spares only
300 AIM-9L/M Sidewinder SRAAM 2005 2007 300 $29 m deal; AIM-9M1/2 version
6 AN/TPS-77 Air search radar 2005 2008-2009 (6) $89 m deal
14 F-16A FGA aircraft 2005 2005-2008 14 Ex-US (but only used 2-4 years); originally produced for Pakistan but delivery embargoed 1988, taken over by USA 2002 and after few years given as aid to Pakistan); aid
7 P-3CUP Orion ASW aircraft 2005 2007-2010 (5) Ex-US P-3C rebuilt to P-3CUP in USA (paid with US aid worth up to $970 m); first 2 delivered without complete systems (to be installed later); delivery 2007-2012
(60) RGM-84L Harpoon-2 Anti-ship missile 2005 2006 (60) $61 m deal; incl 40 AGM-84 version
2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2005 2006 2 Second-hand; SA-319B version
500 JDAM Guided bomb (2006) 2010 (250)
115 M-109A5 155mm Self-propelled gun 2006 2007-2010 (115) Ex-US; $87 m deal (incl $57 m 'FMF' aid)
1600 Paveway Guided bomb (2006) 2010 (1600) Incl 700 GBU-12 and 300 GBU-10 version
2 TF-50 Gas turbine 2006 2007-2008 2 For MRTP-33 FAC delivered by Turkey
18 AAQ-33 Sniper Aircraft EO system 2007 2010 (18) For F-16 combat aircraft
(500) AIM-120C AMRAAM BVRAAM 2007 2010 (250) $265 m deal; AIM-120C-5 version; for F-16 combat aircraft; delivery from 2010
200 AIM-9L/M Sidewinder SRAAM 2007 2010 (200) AIM-9M8 and AIM-9M9 version; for F-16 combat aircraft
(35) AN/APG-68 Aircraft radar 2007 AN/APG-68(V)9 version; for 'Mid-Life Update' (MLU) modernization of 35 F-16A combat aircraft to F-16C (F-16AM or F-16MLU); delivery from 2011
4 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter (2007) 2008 (4) Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; for Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol and anti-narcotics operations
3198 BGM-71 TOW Anti-tank missile (2007) $185 m deal; incl 2776 TOW-2A and 422 TOW-2RF; status uncertain
18 F-16C Block-50/52 FGA aircraft 2007 2010 18 $1.4 b 'Peace Drive 1' deal (part of $3.1 b deal); incl 6 F-16D
10 RGM-84L Harpoon-2 Anti-ship missile 2007 2009 (10) AGM-84L version; for P-3C ASW aircraft
5 Bell-205/UH-1 Huey-2 Helicopter (2008) 2009 5 Ex-US UH-1H rebuilt to Huey-2 before delivery; for Ministry of Interior; aid for Afghan border patrol and anti-narcotics operations
(20) T-37B Trainer aircraft 2008 2009 (20) Ex-US; aid; possibly some for spares only
(14) Bell-209/AH-1F Cobra Combat helicopter (2009) 2010 (14) Ex-Jordanian
2 Bell-412 Helicopter 2009 2010 2 $24 m aid, Bell-412EP version
(2) DB-110 Aircraft recce system (2009) 2009 (2) For F-16 combat aircraft
10 Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Helicopter 2009 2009 10 Ex-US; Mi-17 version; incl 4 on 5-year lease; aid
1 RH-800RA/SIG Reconnaissance ac 2009 2010 1 Hawker-850XP version
(550) M-113A3 APC (2010) Ex-US
1 Perry Frigate 2010 2010 1 Ex-US; aid; modernized in $65 m deal before delivery

L: Pakistan (4) LAADS Air search radar (1989) 1990 (4)
775 M-113 APC 1989 1989-1999 (775) M-113A2 version; most assembled from kits (delivered between 1989-1991/1995) in Pakistan
---------------------------------------------
USSR [ communist and supplied in the days after 1965 and before 1971 - and a great friend]
R: Pakistan (2) SPK-5 ARV 1966 1966 (2) Ex-Soviet
(25) T-34/85 Tank 1966 1966 (25) Ex-Soviet
(12) Mi-8T/Hip-C Helicopter (1967) 1968-1970 (12)
(100) M-46 130mm Towed gun (1968) 1968 (100) Ex-Soviet
1 Mi-6T/Hook-A Helicopter 1968 1968 1 For evaluation
2 P-37/Bar Lock Air search radar 1968 1969 2
2 PRV-11/Side Net Height-finding radar 1968 1969 2
(100) T-54 Tank (1968) 1969 (100) Ex-Soviet
(100) T-55 Tank (1968) 1968 (100)
(11) Mi-8T/Hip-C Helicopter (1983) 1984-1985 (11)
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

Brihaspatiji,

From the lists you posted, it appears that Islamic countries have not been historically as keen to support pakistan as white-christian countries. And one might add - just like the present times. And therein lies a tale.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Which Islamic country manufactures high quality weapons?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhischekcc »

None, but all buy them, don't they?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Yes, but there are restrictions imposed on their transfers.

In any case, Iran (and possibly Jordan) did help Pakis during 1965 war.

Saudis were matching US aid during the 1980s. We can safely assume that it was used against India.
Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 24 Feb 2012 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

The major quality suppliers are USA, China, France, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland. But friends like Russia, or Iran, or Indonesia, even Lebanon do their bit. If we look at the actual items - and the times of their supplies - especially heavy artillery, missiles, tanks and anti-tanks systems - USA has been the major supplier to affect outcomes of low intensity warfare. But the other "white Christians" have played their share too.

If we want to use any of anti-white anti-Christian sentiments [if that is lets say not naivete] - should we not use it against all the major suppliers - who happen all to be "white Christian" and include USA in it definitely!

Abhischekcc ji,
do they have quality stuff to export and that also is needed for specific purposes of the TSPA?

Further - they can and have facilitated in other ways the capacity building of TSPA. On this very forum - we have had several posts alleging the facilitation of nuke tech transfer to Pak, and its funding - allegedly by KSA. I am not surprised that when recently on this thread the nuke-empowering episode was brought up and laid at the door of USA - the possible role of KSA was conveniently not raised at all.

And surprise surprise - we have no racial abuse to hurl at China - one of the major suppliers, and which has its own mythical "Han" racism, and is a ready substitute for US role as and when Pakistanis realize their SDRE-ness and turn against the Americans.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by VikramS »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Yes, I am familiar with US role in Pakistan.

>> Yes - they would have never dared to punch above their weight.

This is your opinion.
x-Posted: From the Horse's Mouth
http://political-science.uchicago.edu/f ... s-asia.pdf
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Saudi oil money joins forces with nuclear Pakistan
[A brief outline - but more detailed ones have been posted, will have to look]
Author: Farhan Bokhari, Stephen Fidler and Roula Khalaf
Publication: The Financial Times
Date: August 5, 2004
link

In case subscription block in the above link, if there is no particular hatred of hvk.org, go for articles/0804/37.html which caches it.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

Semetic Arabs supplied the money and AFAIK, it was Dark Brown Christian Fernandez who decalred Han China as the biggest threat to india . Pale Yellow Hans not only have supplied Nukes but also Missiles and guilty of direct attack on us in 62. Deep Black j South Africa also supplied the Missile tech to Poaq as so did half white Brazil. is there anyone else who has not cast the stone on innocent SDRE India? Yes, our own politicians , Secular Nazis ,arrogant Babbus and Commie and sundry Bhure Angrez in our society .
Yet its the Djinoonlanders who are filing while Desis are bajaoing their Dugduggie.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by VikramS »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
shiv wrote: In 1999 Pakistans sent "infiltrators" while Indian positions were pinned down using accurate US made weapons locating radars and artillery fire
About ~550 Indian soldiers were killed during the Kargil war. How many of these deaths could be attributed to artillery fire?
From what I have read, a majority were due to artillery fire.

While the up-hill assaults get the jingo's attention because of the raw-bravery involved, keep in mind that the IA officers will not send their soldiers to near certain death by charging up-hill blindly without any preparation. They will try to pulverize the enemy defenses with artillery, use the cover of darkness, use a path which provides natural cover and not in the direct line of fire, till they get into range. Most of the assaults during Kargil are well documented and the casualties outlined; IIRC during the assaults the casualties were primarily small arm, line of sight fire.

When fighting against an entrenched relatively immobile defense, the initiative to act is in the hands of the attacker. They can chose when to attack, which path to take, and how to control the attack. While it is much harder to move or engage targets uphill, once it becomes a line of sight game, both the combatants are exposed and the battle, while still unequal is not as one-sided as it might seem.

On the other hand, a single shell hitting a transport truck can take out dozens of men. The Kargil heights were strategic because they provided a clear line of site to the highway, and the Indian convoys, allowing the Pakistani gunners to have a field day. We do not hear about such deaths because it is not going to help the morale in highlighting the sacrifices of the men who died due to shells fired from an unseen gun without giving the men a chance to fight; men who were essentially helpless, and defenseless.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Pakistan survives with its army because it is willing to do anything for anyone - as long as that "anyone" helps Pakistan to hurt India, and sustain its ambition of one day "conquering" back all of Mughalistan. Pakistan cannot allow technological education and indigenous educational progress because that will undermine the islamist institutional control over Paki society. Therefore in order to maintain its demographic strength in a world of increasing technological sophistication, it needs a low-tech agrarian economy supported by fertile and well-irrigated lands - which lie to their east in the Gangetic plains.

This has been the policy and effect of islamist conquests of more advanced societies - all of which ultimately went down economically because of this inherent thrust of islamism. If we do not count this in our calculations about managing Pakistan we will err magnificently.

We can try to convince the pakis of all possible racial abuses hurled on them - but as long as their Dawaists survive along with the feudals - Paki society will never turn in a direction that hurts the long term Islamist project and ambitions on an Indian conquest.

Moreover focusing on one particular country as the great abuser and manipulator is looking at a croner of the picture. The Saudi+Pakistan+China is an axis which might have been partially facilitated by USA and the west or "white christians" - but which always had its own dynamics, and have their own reasons to survive in a common interest indepndent of whether USA now turns against them or not. USA will not turn against either of KSA or of Pakistan even if there are Khomeini style H&D drubbing over the US embassy hostages - mounted by pakistan on Americans. Even on that Iranian episode - it appears that Reaganites were after all in touch with Khoeminian side, and there are even allegations that the whole thing was masterminded to remove the previous president with disgrace. In fact there are allegations that USA probably helped Khomeini to power by removing a Shah and certain military commanders whom US thought were becoming unreliable vis-a-vis USSR.

So I do not see much success after all, in the "race" campaign. This is not about protecting USA or "white Christians", but looking at ground realities, assessing how each force is likely to behave - and what we want after all.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Bji, Recall the US embassy seige in TSP which was akin to the Tehran seige but did not provoke a similar outrage.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_U.S._ ... _Islamabad

For those who forget.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

Expecting and hoping Poaq will change their nature is like asking Sun to rise under the Ocean or Hyenas to guard the Pigs. Fossilized minds like Poaq have no capacity to grow afresh.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> From what I have read, a majority were due to artillery fire.

I would like to see evidence for it.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

abhishek, Now that he has given a line of thought you can dig for it.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Since he has already read it, he might make the search simpler by pointing me to relevant book/article. I was under the impression that Indian casualties were high because Pakis were on top of high peaks.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by AKalam »

shiv wrote:
AKalam wrote:
And shiv ji, complaining is ok, but this situation we have is a product of the current world system. Unless work is done to transform the world system, I believe making noise will help only if the resulting energy created from these complaints is directed towards creative and constructive transformation of the world system, one example of which I tried to paint above.
Kalamji - in my view Indians are sitting in a trance like state imagining that the USA means good for the world and India. They do not want to be woken up because things are too comfortable leaving the management of world affairs to the US. But ultimately India will have to play its hand. For India to play its hand Indians have to see the clout that nations have and not "accept the power of nations as inevitable".

The idea of "doing" is so frightening that few Indians really want to say anything that rocks the current world order. They jump at every opportunity to accept it philosophically and say that "This is how the world works. Live with it. The Americans are better than Islam." Actually opposing the Americans is more frightening than opposing Pakistan and its Islamists. So many seem to hope that the world will change itself for the better. Like Jesus will come again, Hindus hope for the arrival of Kalki in the current Kaliyug.

It ain't gonna happen that way. The future of the Subcontinent will have to be guided by the people of the subcontinent and not by a USA controlling a genocidal Islamic army of Pakistan. In Bangladesh people should know about the Pakistan army and how much support it received from the USA. Trusting that USA to do good for us black monkeys is a mistake.
Shiv ji, indeed, I think that view is more or less correct, but I do not blame people for being cautious and not upsetting the existing neo-liberal apple-cart, because after all this world system is making possible the rise of large states like China and India. But there are threats on the horizon for the neo-liberal model, because middle class in the white lands are essentially figuring out that this model is benefitting the 1% at the expense of the 99%, which is the rallying cry of the occupy movement. So it is possible that the neo-liberal model in its existing shape may not last very long. The more difficult it gets for the middle-working classes in these countries, the more the drive will be for the people, the 99%, to get organized and the first thing they will do is bring down the neo-liberal model of trade.

I think most of the confusion comes from not being able to understand the exact nature of the world system model. Once the model is understood, along with its history, then it does not become too difficult to attempt to reshape this model, that can be a win-win situation for an aspiring great power state, such as India and the people of the world.

Some one brought up Stratfor, I personally think this Friedman guy is nuts. This source should be studied as it is taken seriously in some establishment quarters, but everything from that source should be taken with a grain of salt. But the valuable article mentioned in VikramS ji's post is indeed a validation of exactly what you are saying and what is naturally predicted from the model that I personally have developed, down to the word of "balancer", which I did not know that they are using:
http://political-science.uchicago.edu/f ... s-asia.pdf

This brings me to the question of my model, which I mentioned long back in BRF. It has been a life long hobby of mine. I came to BRF partly to test the viability or feasability of SAARC union. From the reaction "the thought experiment" generated and the facts that were pointed out by many, I am sure now that SAARC has no future as any kind of Union. So that itself was an accomplishment of the BRF forum, which I want to acknowledge. But this does not disprove my theory/hypothesis/model, instead it fine tunes it using new information and recommends other possible unions which I have discussed in my recent post.

I am an engineer and entrepreneur (with not much financial success) with no background in history or sociology or political science. But I found that the emerging field of Historical Sociology (a multi-disciplinary branch of sociology) is a field that kind of covers the model that I am trying to develop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_sociology

I have plans to work with people in the field possibly with some local universities, when and if I find the time. But it would be nice and convenient if we could discuss the proposed model here in BRF, may be in a dedicated GDF thread, with interested people. It would be great if we could have people (students, educators, professionals etc.) who have some theoretical background in above area.

As for the heated discussion in this thread, I should say that emotions always will cloud reason and people when they loose the power of reasoning and rational thinking, then the people they can hurt the most are themselves. With more than a fifth of humanity, what India does as a state and people, matters for the world and its future. So I would urge people to recognize the voice of reason and scholarly work, rather than some people who try to display their knowledge and use this knowledge to become some kind of thought leader.

Perhaps we can also open up a new thread about evolving mechanisms of democracy, how political parties have become obsolete and useless and has become a shameless congregation of corrupt demagogues who actually work as the agent of the 1% and how power should be brought closer to people using more direct forms of democracy using online/internet voting etc. Sorry for going OT, but just wanted to mention these, as I feel people need to think things through before going down any questionable direction, at instigation of some so called scholars or thought leaders.

According to my model, Pakistan will not fail, Baluchistan or Gilgit Baltistan or any other part will not go out hand of Pakistan. The situation there may go bad to worse, but it will not disintegrate. So in my view, these are wishful thinking. The principal difference of this situation in Pakistan now with the creation of Bangladesh in 1971 is that the geographic disconnect and distance, which is absent in these cases. So going these routes are a waste of time and energy and misleading the uninitiated IMHO. Similary Tibet also will not separate. The best possible scenario can be that pressure can and should be put on these states to ensure more rights and better lives for minorities in these provinces, which can and should be done by the world as a whole with one voice.

The model that I want to discuss is new, I have not seen it from any other sources yet. If this is found to be a workable model by veteran and reputable social scientists, then India can utilize it to reshape the world in a win-win for themselves and people of the world.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Jhujar wrote:Expecting and hoping Poaq will change their nature is like asking Sun to rise under the Ocean or Hyenas to guard the Pigs. Fossilized minds like Poaq have no capacity to grow afresh.
No No. They should think and contemplate. They should understand that their army is a slave of Christian America, and it is in their interests to see America out of the region. It is in their interest to allow India land access to Iran and Afghanistan. The subcontinent must return to its pre-1947 state with imperial powers out of the region. That is what they also want no?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

AKalam wrote:
According to my model, Pakistan will not fail, Baluchistan or Gilgit Baltistan or any other part will not go out hand of Pakistan. The situation there may go bad to worse, but it will not disintegrate.
Pakistan is a country in a chronic state of social and political failure. This was the "normal state" of many nations before the modern era - so it's not such a big deal. Its political boundaries have been protected by America and the "world order" and not so much because Pakistanis are able to hold on to those borders. Pakistan's most well defended boundary is with India. That is the boundary that Pakistan sought US help to protect.

Gilgit/Baltistan are going to be a problem because Pakistan, as part of its social and political failure is ceding them to China. Gilgit and Baltistan are relatively sparsely populated and access through mountains is difficult. That is why Pakistan may hand them over to China. If China keeps up its deal with the Pakistanis they can get the land back. Otherwise it will be gone for the foreseeable future ("forever")

Pakistan's coastal border is fixed.

Its Northwest boundary with Afghanistan has never been rigid or enforced. The US and NATO were respecting this boundary more than Pakistan or the Taliban/Al Qaeda. Pakistan's attitude to its border with India was exactly the same. It was felt that Pakistani mujahids/soldiers/infiltrators should freely cross into India and cross back into Pakistan, but India should not cross the border into Pakistan. Until the US started fighting in Afghanistan, the West took the attitude that Pakistani transgressions into India were for "freedom fighters" . Now, after 10 plus years of war, a coalition of the most powerful nations on earth have failed to subdue a ragtag Taliban supported by an undoubtedly clever Pakistani military that has milked the stupid Gringos well. That military is now more powerful than ever before in a country that is failing socially, economically and politically.

I agree that Pakistan will not split. Baluchistan is pure hot air, and apart from drone pinpricks the US/NATO can do nothing other than urge Pakistanis to "contemplate" about goodness and development.

My personal feeling is that the US needs to get the hell out of the region along with the massive aid they provide to the Pakistani army. Right from the time of Suhrawardy Pakistan has managed to fund some development because its military has been more or less continuously subsidized by US aid. I believe I have some reports of such aid even in the so called "dry" no aid period in the 1990s. India can solve its issues with Pakistan without US presence or interference. It is Pakistan that has needed US backing, knowing that India will "solve the problem" in the absence of external aid. Of all the nations who have aided Pakistan, it is US aid that has been most significant over many decades to the Pakistan military. Chinese cooperation is now significant, but it is mostly not aid. The US provides money that Pakistan can use for various things. Development of the Pakistan military has always taken precedence over any other development.

Getting the US out of Pakistan will not solve anything urgently, but will pave the way for an eventual reduction in the power and grip of the Pakistan military. The Pakistan military has more brains that the USA. They threaten failure and break up if the US goes away. Pakistan is not going to break apart. The US is in Pakistan more for historic imperial reasons. Once you have a base in the Falklands or in Pakistan you don't want to give it up. It's a big echandee blow. But Hong Kong was OK because there was a big power next door. India will have to act as the big power next door and ask what the hell the US is doing in the Indian subcontinent.

It is all very well to talk emotionally about how the murderous Muslims have taken over Hindu lands. But those Hindu lands are being held with the assistance of the Imperial Christian USA with the connivance of the Islamic army of Pakistan. Get that damn USA out. Then talk about what we can do next.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

US aid to Pakistan works out to an average 1.5 billion USD a year for the last 57 years. The Pakistan Military has received 25% of that.
Source
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-develo ... o-pakistan
Sixty Years of US aid to Pakistan

Code: Select all

Year	Eco	USAID	Mil
1948	0.77	0.00	0.00
1949	0.00	0.00	0.00
1950	0.00	0.00	0.00
1951	2.89	0.00	0.00
1952	74.25	73.55	0.00
1953	748.29	286.23	0.00
1954	156.95	152.24	0.00
1955	733.15	477.18	266.00
1956	1,065.67	700.89	1,086.50
1957	1,079.65	619.90	437.59
1958	968.22	589.59	533.13
1959	1,367.93	985.25	366.81
1960	1,689.84	1,181.35	230.39
1961	989.53	780.04	260.47
1962	2,334.65	1,446.28	549.02
1963	2,066.77	1,063.68	292.31
1964	2,222.66	1,334.16	187.55
1965	1,928.90	1,041.58	77.38
1966	816.28	691.28	8.40
1967	1,213.36	719.38	26.33
1968	1,501.68	672.50	25.98
1969	541.76	504.31	0.50
1970	968.32	570.93	0.87
1971	474.25	31.21	0.73
1972	692.87	261.87	0.42
1973	715.35	387.63	1.24
1974	381.97	219.13	0.95
1975	614.34	326.02	0.92
1976	644.10	336.78	1.28
1977	319.16	209.40	0.92
1978	214.92	55.49	1.52
1979	128.81	23.31	1.20
1980	137.53	0.00	0.00
1981	164.16	0.00	0.00
1982	400.60	200.07	1.20
1983	534.18	383.29	499.77
1984	568.05	415.84	555.90
1985	607.26	447.53	583.53
1986	623.56	460.91	545.82
1987	599.07	469.53	534.54
1988	769.14	635.00	430.69
1989	559.72	421.27	367.06
1990	548.07	422.37	283.44
1991	149.59	141.78	0.00
1992	27.14	0.57	7.20
1993	74.19	7.98	0.00
1994	68.43	0.00	0.00
1995	23.13	10.10	0.00
1996	22.79	0.00	0.00
1997	57.17	0.00	0.00
1998	36.32	0.00	0.00
1999	102.14	6.72	0.22
2000	45.72	0.00	0.00
2001	228.02	0.54	0.00
2002	937.34	744.74	1,739.70
2003	377.93	284.81	1,760.23
2004	406.12	316.56	891.39
2005	490.42	374.04	1,397.06
2006	689.43	488.46	1,246.10
2007	688.62	498.91	1,079.72
2008	614.48	392.05	1,378.32
2009	1,353.65	1,076.25	1,114.26
2010	1,867.13	1,529.53	2,524.61
Total	40428.39	25470.01	21299.17
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

Poaq failure in the sense that they keep killing each others , keep the purifying process going Quadri , Ilum din style. All the time while living on Khairat from all the lovers. Westphalian failure is not necessary as much the ideological failure must happen so they become example of their worldviews.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Jhujar wrote:Poaq failure in the sense that they keep killing each others , keep the purifying process going Quadri , Ilum din style. All the time while living on Khairat from all the lovers. Westphalian failure is not necessary as much the ideological failure must happen so they become example of their worldviews.
Failure as a Westphalian nation state is no problem as long as something holds the boundaries together. People may suffer but before vaccinations, public health, birth control and "industrial development" all countries were like that onlee. Pakistanis will live forever like people lived 1000 years ago.

If population increased beyond a point, deaths will increase also and balance it out. But that population would not harm India if they did not have several layers of military protection A population with small arms like Pakistan is dangerous with or without a military. But a population with small arms can be subdued and even disarmed by tanks and modern military. But Pakistan has the ability to withstand any attack, using tanks, aircraft or whatever - courtesy its superbly strong military.

India can never control a violent Pakistan population as long as its violence receives an umbrella of protection by a modern military machine. With military aid, the Pakistan issue essentially cannot be solved by military means, and it will never go away by itself.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

http://www.princeton.edu/~jns/publicati ... itancy.pdf

I know C.Fair is not popular here. But the following highlights should be interesting [if the data they quote is authentic then the design and statistical methodology followed as described is impeccable ]
We asked three questions designed to test H6b (i.e., that those believing U.S. influence has a negative effect on the world will be more supportive of al-Qaida). The first asked respondents whether they agreed that the United States seeks to “weaken and divide the Islamic world.” The second asked respondents how much they trusted the United States to “act responsibly in the world.” The third asked whether they agreed with the statement that “the U.S. is playing the role of world policeman more than it should.”

We asked three questions to test H6c (i.e., that those concerned with Indian treatment of Muslims in Kashmir will be more supportive of the askari tanzeems). We first elicited respondents’ perceptions about the Indian government’s treatment of Muslims both in and out of Kashmir. We then asked whether Pakistan “has a moral obligation to protect Muslims anywhere in South Asia.”

Finally, to test H6d (i.e., that support would be increasing in the belief that groups provide social services), we asked respondents whether the askari tanzeems “provide social and community services.”
[...]
Table 5 reveals three patterns. Most important, the al-Qaida-specific political questions do a poor job of predicting support for that group. Once we controlled for feelings about other groups’ political variables, for example, respondents’ feelings about the U.S. role in world affairs were not useful in predicting support for al-Qaida. Moreover, goals that predict support for both the Taliban and the askari tanzeems—opposition to the Pakistani government’s efforts to impose control over local Taliban in the FATA, for example—did not predict support for al-Qaida. One potential explanation for this null finding is that some intervening variable is conditioning the relationship between respondents’ political beliefs and their support for specific groups.

Second, there were a few political questions that predicted support across groups. Respondents who felt that Pakistan has an obligation to protect Muslims elsewhere were more likely to support the Taliban and al-Qaida but not the askari tanzeems. From the perspective of our alternative to the conventional wisdom, this makes sense. Respondents who believe that the askari tanzeems create insecurity for Muslims in Kashmir (as they often do) should withhold their support.

Third, respondents’ support for the askari tanzeems was not driven by concerns with India’s treatment of its Muslim citizens. Indeed, the more our respondents believed that India fares poorly in protecting Muslims, the less supportive they were of militants conducting attacks in India and Kashmir. This finding is consistent with a relatively sophisticated political calculus by our respondents, one that runs as follows: (1) attacks by askari tanzeems may provoke a backlash against Indian Muslims; (2) if India is already doing a poor job protecting its Muslims, that backlash could be severe and Muslims will suffer; hence (3) I should not support the askari tanzeems.68
Thus in a way they are saying that fear of retaliation does work - from India on even Kashmir Muslims or Muslims internally, and the presence of US forces in the neighbourhood, retaliating on Pakistan - towards reducing support for Paki militancy.

They also find no support for the "poverty" creates militancy hypothesis.

As for democracy magically displacing militancy and islamism:
Respondents who feel Pakistan is governed by representatives of the people were not less supportive of al-Qaida or the askari tanzeems. Importantly, there was no discernible relationship between respondents’ support for core democratic rights and their disapproval of either the Taliban or al-Qaida.These results suggest that the presumption that citizens who favor democracy oppose militancy is incomplete at best. As an alternative, analysts who are more familiar with the terrain in Pakistan argue that those who want democracy see no requirement for secularization and no obvious disconnect between greater Islamism and democracy. Moreover, supporters of democracy could be more inclined to back militancy because Pakistan’s Islamist parties have historically phrased their appeals in democratic terms.
[...]
Overall, controlling for political grievances removes most of the alreadytenuous relationship between support for democracy and support for militancy.
As for religiosity:
A different alignment emerged around the gap between respondents’ desired role for Islam and its actual role in Pakistani governance. The larger respondents felt this gap was, the more supportive they were for all three Islamist militant groups, but the effect was statistically signiªcant only for the Taliban and al-Qaida.
Finally something for the "more economic prosperity relative to India will reduce militancy" lobby:
Perceptions of Pakistan’s economic performance relative to India’s have the opposite relationship predicted by H2. The better a respondent sees Pakistan’s economy performing relative to India’s, the more supportive he or she is of al-Qaida and the askari tanzeems. Once we account for support for other militant organizations, this relationship disappears in the case of al-Qaida and becomes stronger in the case of the askari tanzeems, again suggesting heterogeneity not captured in the conventional wisdom about poverty and support. Perceptions that our respondents are falling behind economically are also not tied to support for militancy. Instead, those who see Pakistan’s economy pulling away from India’s are more likely to support militant activity directed at India. These results remain robust when controlling for all the religiosity variables that we discuss in the following
subsection.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by AKalam »

shiv wrote:
...Until the US started fighting in Afghanistan, the West took the attitude that Pakistani transgressions into India were for "freedom fighters" . Now, after 10 plus years of war, a coalition of the most powerful nations on earth have failed to subdue a ragtag Taliban supported by an undoubtedly clever Pakistani military that has milked the stupid Gringos well. That military is now more powerful than ever before in a country that is failing socially, economically and politically.

I agree that Pakistan will not split. Baluchistan is pure hot air, and apart from drone pinpricks the US/NATO can do nothing other than urge Pakistanis to "contemplate" about goodness and development.

My personal feeling is that the US needs to get the hell out of the region along with the massive aid they provide to the Pakistani army. Right from the time of Suhrawardy Pakistan has managed to fund some development because its military has been more or less continuously subsidized by US aid. I believe I have some reports of such aid even in the so called "dry" no aid period in the 1990s. India can solve its issues with Pakistan without US presence or interference. It is Pakistan that has needed US backing, knowing that India will "solve the problem" in the absence of external aid. Of all the nations who have aided Pakistan, it is US aid that has been most significant over many decades to the Pakistan military. Chinese cooperation is now significant, but it is mostly not aid. The US provides money that Pakistan can use for various things. Development of the Pakistan military has always taken precedence over any other development.

Getting the US out of Pakistan will not solve anything urgently, but will pave the way for an eventual reduction in the power and grip of the Pakistan military. The Pakistan military has more brains that the USA. They threaten failure and break up if the US goes away. Pakistan is not going to break apart. The US is in Pakistan more for historic imperial reasons. Once you have a base in the Falklands or in Pakistan you don't want to give it up. It's a big echandee blow. But Hong Kong was OK because there was a big power next door. India will have to act as the big power next door and ask what the hell the US is doing in the Indian subcontinent.

It is all very well to talk emotionally about how the murderous Muslims have taken over Hindu lands. But those Hindu lands are being held with the assistance of the Imperial Christian USA with the connivance of the Islamic army of Pakistan. Get that damn USA out. Then talk about what we can do next.
It is possible that Gilgit Baltistan might be handed over to China, if China pays the right price to Pakistani elite who will find some way to explain it to the clueless masses. But the model I am proposing does not need Gilgit Baltistan to make Central Asia access possible for India. A regional union in that space can actually reduce Chinese influence in Central Asia and it is possible to bring both US and Russia on board for this project. As it is, while India lack any access due to Af-pak instability, China is having a field day since the fall of Soviets there, marketing their products, making pipelines and making railroads all the way to Europe. Increasing Chinese influence there in this vacuum is bad for Russia, US and India. If I remember correctly Central Asian Union involving the 5 stans have been a professed goal of US diplomacy in that region. Opening up Central Asia for Pakistan and India was also part of this US diplomatic goal. Having a stable Af-pak region which can reduce extremism and remove any safe have for Al Qaeda is also a US goal. A regional union initiative can also show to people of Pakistan, world's Muslim population and the world in general, that India is a mature up and coming global power and state, who can take their own initiative independently and is not guided by old enmity or any kind of automatic hatred for Islam or Muslims, which has been the narrative promoted by Pakistani military-feudal elite.

The biggest problem is unstable and mismanaged states in the neighborhood like Pakistan, Afghanistan and to a lesser extent Bangladesh and Myanmar. If they can be made stable, functional and workable, much of the current problems will go away.

In the Eastern side of India, an expanded and strengthened ASEAN will have the same effect, to make Bangladesh and Myanmar much more workable, so access to all of South East Asia becomes possible and exploitative influence of China can be stopped on its tracks. Here also Japan, Korea, US led West will be a willing partner to reduce Chinese influence.

Like the article (VikramS ji mentioned) states, the US has inherited Pakistan from the British raj and tried to make it into a success story like Korea or Taiwan, but the block headed Pakjabi dominated Army bungled that window of opportunity unfortunately. And the US was short sighted in unleashing the Wahabi extremist meme imported from KSA in Af-pak space. It worked to contain the Soviets, but it became a fire that could not be controlled once unleashed. Pakistan Army also used this same jihadi extremism against India and to keep control of its strategic depth in Afghanistan using Talibans, both of which were irresponsible and short sighted decisions. One simply should not play with fire. All that is old story. But USA did not want to come back, unless it was for 9/11, which unfortunately made the "gringo's" commit a series of blunders, starting with Iraq and then in its recent surge against the Talibans.

Whatever concerns the US has, can be handled in the creative solution I proposed. I maintain that it is possible to create win-win solutions for most stake-holders that count. Eventually China will also come round and accept such ideas, as it will not want to appear as anti-people imperial exploiters who want to follow divide and rule and extract resources from resource rich regions.

More often than not, in my observation, it is incompetence, lack of creativity and short-sightedness that is at the root of many blunders and mess ups, rather than bad intentions. Since the white man has been in charge of world affairs, their geopolitics unfortunately has affected the rest of us negatively and it may not have helped the white man in the long run. It is kind of like the ignorant wide spread use of chemicals and radio-active substance without understanding their full effect on human health.

If India can float and initiate better solutions, I believe stake-holders are capable of becoming part of the solution, if they see any merit in it for themselves.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

In an ideal subcontinent I should be able to take a train (or send goods by train) from Istanbul to Bangkok. Iraq, Iran and Pakistan are, in my view the least likely to allow this to happen. I think Delhi to Bangkok will happen - Bangladesh and Myanmar will both "settle IMO.

Iraq is currently in terrible shape. It has been saved by the USA. Yesterday 40 more people died in a bomb blast. Incidentally 40 or so died in a bomb blast in Pakistan also I think - but it seems to have missed the Pakistan thread. I think India has had a stabilizing influence on Myanmar and Bangladesh.

The US exerts its benign stabilizing influence on Iraq, Iran and Pakistan.

Having said that, the route from Delhi to Bangkok has only one overtly Islamic majority country along the way - Bangladesh. Iraq and Pakistan have been at war for decades for some reason or other. Iran has avoided war despite being on a collision course with the US. Iran may well be the most stable of the three countries.

If you look at all the factors in play in Iraq, Iran and Pakistan only Islam is common. Iraq is Arab. Iran is neither Arab nor Indian. Iraq has a big Sunni-Shia mix. I believe Iran is mainly Shia. Pakistani is Indian Sunni. Iraq, Iran and Pakistan were caught up in the great game. Iraq was in the Soviet bloc, but is now under the USA. Iran was a US stooge - but became "independent" in the 70s. Pakistan is a US stooge, but Islamists are trying to get "independence" from the US.

To me there are two factors that play a role
1. An inherent Islamic tendency to split and fight or make war
2. An astute Imperial (Originally British) ability to seek out religious and ethnic fault lines and support both sides posing as a "neutral" arbitrator. The US is doing that.

The number of Islamic countries over which the US exerts direct or indirect control is significant and says as much about Islamic populations as imperial US power.

If you remove the Imperial power, the Islam will not go away. There may not be peace, but the local powers will kill each other or fight until they can fight no more and then stop. The presence of the imperial power never brings peace because the imperial power has his own interests in being present. Islam also brings mostly war, not peace, But peace comes eventually, when enough people are dead.

If I look at the countries from Iraq to Thailand the absence of Islam in governance and the absence of an imperial power seems to connect up with the greatest chance of stability and peace. The presence of Islam and an imperial power is the worst combination. Only Iran has Islam and no imperial control. Apart from US threats and sanctions Iran is stable.

I think the USA needs to get out of Pakistan as a first step to allow the people there to fight and kill themselves as per their own convictions rather than as per US dictates. I suspect stability can be brought in later minus the USA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Arav »

Prospects of Pakistan's Islamist resurgence

Faith, Maududi insisted, was more than a “hotchpotch of beliefs, prayers and rituals.” Islam was, in fact, “a revolutionary ideology which seeks to alter the social order of the entire world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals.” Even the word ‘Muslims', he argued, denoted not a community of believers, but an “international revolutionary party organised by Islam to carry out its revolutionary programme.”

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed claimed that Prophet Muhammad had called for war “against the Hindu, so that the greatness of the jihad can be evident.” Following “the success of this jihad, after the end of Judaism, after the end of Christianity, after the end of obscenity and irreligiousness, Islam will rule the world,” he said.

The Lashkar's Muzaffarabad-based leader Abdul Wahid Kashmiri addressed the Pakistan government: “you beg water from India, whereas we are battling to levy jizya [a tax on conquered non-Muslims]”.


Even though the electoral clout of religious fundamentalists and Islamists has been limited, their ideological influence has shaped Pakistan's political destiny.

In 1949, the Jama'at Ullema Islam, political wing of the Deoband clerics, successfully lobbied for the Objectives Resolution, which decreed that sovereignty belonged to god, rather than people.


“the first prerequisite would be to acknowledge and restore the sovereignty of god over the state”
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by AKalam »

I have no background in political science or international relations. But I have heard of this balance of power idea before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of ... _relations

A vacuum of power means imbalance. So it is highly unlikely that Pakistan will go alone without any "balancer". When US troops leave Af-pak around 2014, sufficient number of special ops, private contractors and/or trainers may remain and there will be continued economic/political/diplomatic engagement with both Afghanistan and Pakistan, because a few billion here and there is something the US can afford to loose:
- to deny any new safe haven for Al Qaeda type extremists that could repeat another 9/11
- to keep this area under balance and
- to retain its influence and presence in an important geo-strategic space

If Pakistan feels that it is not getting the required balancing support from the US, they will possibly turn to China, as many have predicted in BRF. The idea that the US will just leave and allow a vacuum for China to jump in and fill, is not something that may materialize at any time in the near or mid term future. Even if there was a vacuum, India will have little success in competing with China to fill that vacuum, considering the prevailing domestic political scenario in both Pakistan and India and the trust deficit. But changing this situation is very much within India's reach, if it was so desired by the people of India and its leadership who represent them, I think. China has to access Pakistan through Khunjerab pass which is often ice covered, whereas India has a long common border and pre-existing roads and railways from British raj period. But there is daily bus service between Gilgit and Kashgar (I have actually seen these Shilwar Kameez clad Pakistani's during my trip to Kashgar) since 2006 and work is progressing on a railway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khunjerab_Pass

One way the influence of US or China can be minimized is through a local regional union IMO, which will provide more stability from internal strength of competitiveness, increased market size and economic vitality of the union. But for this to materialize we may have to wait till the passing of two regimes in the neighborhood, the Putin led ex-KGB mafioso regime in Russia and the Mullahcracy in Iran. Once these two are gone, there will hopefully be a more West-ward shift for these two states and it might be easier to work out a US-Russia-India understanding to make this Central Asian Union a reality and bring China on-board at a later time, when it sees no other choice but to participate.

About Islam and governance, the problems in states with significant Muslim population were and are mainly because of disruption or break in historical continuity IMO. Ottoman and British India are two main examples, whereas Iran and Indonesia did not suffer this discontinuity because they retained more or less their original areas of state without a break from the past, which probably is the reason for their relative stability. Islamic lifestyle may contribute to a general backwardness in people's outlook and make them resistant to change, but Arab spring shows that this also is not absolute. Change is an inherent part of human social evolution, regardless of their belief systems. But in case of Islamic society the change may be slower than others.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by VikramS »

Most of the stuff in this thread is above my pay-grade. I will add some thoughts as seen from the hoi-polloi.

=> A few years ago, while getting my daily dose of humor on some Def forum, I ran across a post about how the TSPians being TFTA, Martial and Islamic were meant to rule, and not work. Their job was to wield the sword and collect protection money. And everything goes in achieving their goal.

=> I do not think it has anything to do with my immediate family, but the need to do the "right" thing seems to come naturally to me. My wife who has a different background also has the same outlook towards life. I think I attribute it to the "Dharmic" environment we grew up in. That inherent dissonance with what the TFTA were saying was obvious.

=>While doing the right thing part may resonate with many people influenced by Dharmic thoughts, the inherent contradiction with the stratification of the Hindu society will also confuse those are trying to understand Dharmic society. How can people who believe in doing the right thing, treat so many of their own, poorly? This specifically creates a stick by which Dharma can be beaten down with, and has provided the moral crutch for the White Man's Burden.

=>Modern PRC has cut of its roots completely from their Dharmic past and what some would call spiritually barren. You need to be in that state to murder tens of millions of your own. I smiled a little when AKalam ji said that the Chinese will stop their noe-imperialistic activities, if everything else falls in place. I did because, I think the Chinese took the lessons of the Imperialists to heart, and there is no moral compass preventing them from taking it to the extreme. The Christian Imperialists used the moral crutch of the White Man's Burden to lean on; the CPC/PRC does not even need a crutch to lean on since they have taken the doctrine of "Self Interest" to the extreme; while it is OK to talk about no "Permanent Alliances, only Permanent Interests", the situation can become dangerous when there is absolutely no moral restraint.

=>When it comes to detachment from their pre-Islamic History, I believe Bangladesh is more like other Islamic states of the East than than the TFTAs cousins on the West. I agree that if LEFT to THEIR OWN DEVICES, Bangladesh will not have any problems to facilitate the train from Amritsar to Thailand (and beyond). The element of Bengali pride is alive in Bangladesh, and not subsumed completely. Any thoughts AKalamji?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

AKalam wrote:According to my model, Pakistan will not fail, Baluchistan or Gilgit Baltistan or any other part will not go out hand of Pakistan. The situation there may go bad to worse, but it will not disintegrate. So in my view, these are wishful thinking. The principal difference of this situation in Pakistan now with the creation of Bangladesh in 1971 is that the geographic disconnect and distance, which is absent in these cases. So going these routes are a waste of time and energy and misleading the uninitiated IMHO.
AKalam ji

I cannot say much about how Gilgit-Baltistan situation would develop, but it is not as if Pakistan can really lease out Gilgit-Baltistan to China. People there would not be willing to be leased out. There will be revolts. And if there are revolts in disputed land, where the lease is not accepted by the world, nor by India which has legal rights to the place, then that would be untenable, and would increase the cost of occupation for the Chinese enormously, further having a domino effect of instability over their own regions - East Turkestan and Tibet. So as it is difficult for both China and India to get hold of this land, it would remain under Pakistani administration for some time, until a time India makes a concerted move. Considering the increasing power differential between India and Pakistan that can come to happen.

As far as Baluchistan is concerned, you're right, one cannot compare it to Bangladesh case, but then Bangladesh need not be template for each Pakistani split.

The prime difference between Baluchistan Independence and Bangladesh Independence was that Bangladeshis were a big population surrounded by well-meaning neighbors - India and Myanmar, who did not wish to encroach upon Bangladeshi integrity. Baluchistan would not have that advantage - it would be surrounded by Iranians to the West, Pushtuns to the North and Pakjabis to the East. Each have occupied Baluchis in one way or another earlier as well as now. Secondly Baluchi population is also very low and insufficient to secure its borders and ensure non-interference by its neighbors.

That means only one thing - another power would have to sit in Baluchistan and ensure its independence. It can be USA, which puts up its bases in Baluchistan, which would have been given nominal independence earlier. But that would reek of colonialism, and I don't think Baluchis would be willing to allow such an arrangement. Even in Afghanistan, the presence of ISAF/NATO/USA gives the people the feeling of being occupied, regardless of whatever developmental work the Westerners are doing!

The other power which can be given the control over Baluchistan is Iran - a free Iran, freed of its Shi'a theocratic regime and a US ally. That however would also not get, because Saudis would just not allow that its rival is allowed to get Baluchi Sunni land. It also does not really help those who would be in favor of Baluchi Independence for their own strategic reasons to which I get later on.

Third option is India. If Baluchis were to again become part of India as they were part of British India once. But the Baluchis have to make that determination on their own, and I think only the Indian Army can ensure the integrity of whatever borders are agreed to for Baluchistan.

Now why do I think Baluchi Independence is inevitable!

Unlike Bangladesh, I don't think India would play any active role in supporting Baluchi independence, because that would lead to an all-out war with Pakistan, and nobody in India is really looking forward to it, as it can really escalate to a radioactive catastrophe. India can only provide logistical help to the Baluchis, but we would not launch a war with Pakistan on that.

So USA would have to be the political agent of Baluchi Independence, unlike Bangladesh where India played a vital role.

If one were to notice, from the perspective of USA, Asia-Pacific Rim has been extended to include the Indian Ocean Rim and is now called the Indo-Pacific Region. That means that the Indian Subcontinent has been declared as region of America's immediate interest. But Central Asia is increasingly being locked up by Russia, China, Iran and Pakistan, giving India and USA limited access to the region, making USA dependent on Pakistan, and India on Iran. Historically this is something India is not really used to for India had had a very strong presence in Central Asia as its Buddhist past testifies to, but also later. So both USA and India have strong reasons to try to break the hold of Iran and Pakistan over Central Asia.

Secondly Russia too is interested in getting access to the Indian Ocean, which has been blocked by Iran, Pakistan and USA. Russia and India are close partners but our trade is still abysmal, especially because Russia cannot provide us with energy through gas pipelines.

A stabilization of Afghanistan or at least that of a North-South corridor in Western Afghanistan and independence of Baluchistan would ensure that energy can flow freely, and not just energy but all resources from Central Asia can reach markets in India. USA would like to be able to tap into the resources of Central Asia, and Russia would like to be able to use the passage to provide those resources to the growing market in India.

A Baluchistan under India would also suit Russia because even as it gives USA the freedom to get economically involved in Central Asia, it restricts USA from indiscriminate political interference in Central Asia, unless it is in the framework agreed to by India with possible Russian approval.

The SCO arrangement can work only if all powers are given equal access to Central Asia. At the moment USA and India do not get that level of access except by expending valuable political and economic capital and allowing ourselves to be blackmailed.

So what I would expect over the medium term is that USA would keep some bases in Afghanistan, in places like Herat, Mazar-i-Sharif and North Afghanistan, etc. India would control Baluchistan and have a military arrangement with USA giving them more or less free land and air access to Afghanistan for a couple of decades.

Now one can consider this opinion to be partisan, as I am Indian, but the way I see it, I don't know how else USA can secure access to Central Asia. A change in Iranian regime could allow that, but it is still not in America's hand. They cannot set up a regime in Iran which would be under American thumb, especially not if USA gets involved in attacking Iran. The radicalization of Pakistan has made working with Pakistan increasingly difficult.

So as long as USA is in AfPak, it is dependent on Pakistan, but once it comes 2014 and the majority of the forces leave, all bets are off between USA and Pakistan. USA has not been able to bring Afghanistan under its control, thereby ensuring access to Central Asia, simply because Pakistanis have not played fair and double-crossed USA. USA has expended all this political and military capital for not much reason.

But an Indian Army securing Baluchistan's borders would be a major force for stabilization in the region, and finally allow USA to secure the North-South Access to Central Asia.

USA sees India as a facilitator which allows USA to project a much bigger level of power in Asia. In Hillary Clinton's address in Chennai, she touched upon India needing to play a much bigger role in Southeast Asia and Central Asia. The Central Asia bit came as a surprise, especially as Indian presence in Afghanistan though benign is still very tentative, and we have no access to Central Asia. Breaking away of Baluchistan would allow India to again become a player in Central Asia.

The more region of Asia India secures against encroachment by China, the more positive it plays out for USA because then it need not counter China everywhere. It does not mean India and USA are going to be allies in the traditional sense, or that India would become some American stooge but there is scope for strategic cooperation, which allows both parties to strengthen their standing in Asia.

Now this is one trajectory that the evolution of Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Central Asia can take. But this is more likely than the alternative and that is to allow SCO to strengthen its hold over Central Asia, which does not allow India to project influence independently of other powers.

Many here would doubt this scenario, but they are those who would rather see the worldview of the West USA through the prism of historical evidence and ideology. But one often overlooks that USA is prone to change its partners as they see fit depending on which arrangement best suits them. So just because USA has been Pakistan's No. 1 supporter does not mean that that is written in stone and they will not rethink it.

It also does not mean that USA would all of a sudden become India's best friend and do everything to help India. Far from it, USA would try to retain some levers of power, both external and internal, to influence India, something many in India would also resist, and justifiably so! But all that is the process of transition to a stage where USA would have little say in Asia and India would take over American soft Empire in Asia, using India's own brand of hard and soft power.

I believe your model sees Pakistan as a place where the security and economic situation deteriorates but the country stay together! Left to their own devices, that may be the case that just the situation would deteriorate without any change in political boundaries, were it not for the strong strategic interests that other powers have in Baluchistan. Those interests and Baluchi discontentment with Pakistan would necessitate the break up of Pakistan again.

There is some reason to believe that Pakistan can resist this break-up - especially as they have nuclear weapons, but the sheer political and security instability in Pakistan, its plummeting economy, external dependence of its military for arms, hostile neighbors would ensure that Pakistan does in fact break up.

After 2014, Baluchistan is the place to watch out for!
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