LCA News and Discussions

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 24 Dec 2011 23:28

Dear DRDO/HAL/ADA,
Where the F**K is my Christmas present?

Remember AK.Antony's words anyone?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Dec 2011 23:32

^sometime back Dhurvasa asked the same question in the same way. He has gone silent now. What is your problem?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Dec 2011 00:27

I am extremely disappointed with Saraswat/PS/Unnamed sources all of whom promised LSP7 and NP1 before the end of the year. Anyways, my disappointment doesnt carry any weight whatsoever but hope the forces understands the delay and put up with it.

member_20163 · Post by **member_20163** » 25 Dec 2011 02:59

So - Do we anticipate a new year present in the form of NP-1 or LSP-7.. All fingers, toes , hand and legs crossed.. Hope it happens..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Dec 2011 03:46

You are absolutely wrong Surya. Your disappointment does carry weight. The problem is weights average is taken only when a sizable number of people has opinionated on the same lines.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2011 07:38

Vashishtha wrote:Dear DRDO/HAL/ADA,
Where the F**K is my Christmas present?

You must have been a bad boy. No presents for you this year.

DRDO was complicit in the 1998 nuclear tests which were a Buddha Jayanti gift to you. The Americans reciprocated by kicking out Indians working on the LCA test rig in the US so the fight control software was re written entirely in India by our software coolies, those insufferable slowpokes. Our delays now are partly because of that DRDO complicity in the nuke explosion.

Delays are bad, but with the LCA they have always been because of due care taken by the team. You can be sure that they are facing issues that they are determined to set right and succeed. There is, in my personal view, no need be so vehement in blaming them for your personal disappointment on this day. I hope you can have yourself a great Christmas otherwise.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Dec 2011 08:40

shiv wrote:
Vashishtha wrote:Dear DRDO/HAL/ADA,
Where the F**K is my Christmas present?
You must have been a bad boy. No presents for you this year.

Hakimji i am good boy onlee

why no present for me.... hoping against hope as we still have one full week unless Hakimji has inside info(that there is no present this year). Anyways, each time i am disappointed i gather solace from the fact that there is one brave soul who will be venturing out to fly the aircraft the first time and if i were to be in the engg team I will check, double check and check n times before i can put that brave soul in the cockpit. After all, if something goes wrong my conscience would devour me and i will never have peace in life. However, I am not sure if the forces would take delays in their stride when they have a dire need for new aircraft, my fears are that tejas may get marutified. Given the fact that they have been doing taxi trials on the LSP7 aircraft my guess for the delay is that they are possibly finetuning the software load in light of the recent tests, so that LSP7 can have formidable weapon delivery abilities right from the word go. How i wish they fly lsp7 and 8 fly within a span of 1 week *sigh*. I am not very worried about the NP1 because IN typically tends to understand the difficulties and is more supportive unlike the IAF

Anyways like someone said crossed fingers crossed legs with hope, let us see when ADA obliges us

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2011 08:56

suryag wrote: Anyways like someone said crossed fingers crossed legs with hope, let us see when ADA obliges us

Suryag there is double stupidity here. The first and more significant one is the person who gives dates when he should have kept his mouth clamped shut. The second is the loss of Indic sense in people who believe such deadlines.

I have tried time and again to point out that Indians have a sense of time that does not fit in with the western concept of fixed dates. Only birth and death are fixed dates for Indians to be determined after they occur. Everything else is changeable. No one believes me though.

You have to live in India long enough to know that the shop owner who says "ten minutes" means two hours, the doctor's secretary who says "soon" means half a day, the hostess who invites you fro dinner at 7 PM means you should turn up at 8-30, and the tailor who says next week means come and remind me to do it next week and it may be ready in a month, Inshallah. The guest speaker from abroad due to address you at a special 5 star hotel dinner meet will speak only at 8 Pm but you are told to arrive at 7, so you arrive at 8-30. Why do we believe that a technical education changes this aspect of Indians? It is our belief that needs mending IMO.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Dec 2011 09:05

Sirjee should we remain the same for eternity ? Arent we the new gen go get it Indians unlike the previous generation ? In the same vein wouldnt there be a time when we start standing by our schedules it is the hope that we might have turned the corner that creates this anticipation. Frankly I am like a spectator in a cricket match waiting for the runrate to climb up. Of course all of this should go into a rant thread but it is here because search for info on Tejas was what brought me to BRF way back in '03

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Dec 2011 10:00

...if IR flashes train arrives by time means it is always next day, flights by weeks, babooze by months, decisions by years. brahma by 4 billion years. But, all these can be brought down in seconds and lightning speed. Ask your favorite chaiwala.. for the tricks.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 25 Dec 2011 16:46

You must have been a bad boy. No presents for you this year.

Hahaaa!!! Saik/shiv i am just kidding guys.. anyways.. Drdo needs to do its best to make sure first flight is 10/10 and if it means a few extra days then fine.. But atleast by the end of this year... The monster of anticipation is killing me...

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Dec 2011 03:07

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote: Anyways like someone said crossed fingers crossed legs with hope, let us see when ADA obliges us
Suryag there is double stupidity here. The first and more significant one is the person who gives dates when he should have kept his mouth clamped shut. The second is the loss of Indic sense in people who believe such deadlines.

I have tried time and again to point out that Indians have a sense of time that does not fit in with the western concept of fixed dates. Only birth and death are fixed dates for Indians to be determined after they occur. Everything else is changeable. No one believes me though.

You have to live in India long enough to know that the shop owner who says "ten minutes" means two hours, the doctor's secretary who says "soon" means half a day, the hostess who invites you fro dinner at 7 PM means you should turn up at 8-30, and the tailor who says next week means come and remind me to do it next week and it may be ready in a month, Inshallah. The guest speaker from abroad due to address you at a special 5 star hotel dinner meet will speak only at 8 Pm but you are told to arrive at 7, so you arrive at 8-30. Why do we believe that a technical education changes this aspect of Indians? It is our belief that needs mending IMO.

You just described the incompetent India, the competent Indian whine about. Concept of timelyness and respecting the deadlines and promises is not a foreign concept ti India or Indians. It's just the system is much more behind the reference or benchmark that it is measured gainst. There is a very competent India too that means what it says and delivers in time or at least tries to....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Dec 2011 04:55

Shiv,I look forward to your next book on India,the philosopher's lament! You are absolutely spot on about our concept of time.When the GTRE boffin years ago told APJK that the Kaveri would be ready and flying within a few months,horrifying the good AM who knew the real truth,he actually meant the month in they year in which it is written when Kaveri will arrive! As long as the boss-man is an Indian and preferably from the IAS/UPSC cadre,the Indian concept of time will prevail.If a man like that great genius Dr.Kurt Tank is in charge,then western standards of time will prevail and one will see a lot of "hiring and firing" taking place.With an Indian bossman,"....what does it matter yaar,all is illusion only no? Where will the war come from? All sides have nuclear weapons,so let's keep everyone employed,after all,we Indians have to get our daughter's married off no?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 26 Dec 2011 05:23

This indian relationship (or lack of it) with deadlines apart, on the technical side things could be disturbing.

The issue causing delay in LSP 7 flight could be bugging all of LCA ac's or it could be unique to LSP7. Former was the case with that fuel line issue which seems to have been resolved. Any other general LCA issue is less likely as planes have been flying after that fuel thing was fixed (Pokhran, Goa tests etc).

So, LSP7 could be delayed by problems unique to it. LSP7 and 8 were said to be manufactured using same techniques as the SP aircrafts will be. So, this could point to issues with manufacturing methods. This is worrying as it will definitely delay start of production of the SP series. It was reported a long time back that LSP7 had completed low speed taxi trials and was very close to first flight. Maybe they uncovered some structural/quality control issues.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Dec 2011 08:07

There will be always issues with all planes.. what is important is what we consider important and how we handle them, that is normally hidden from public.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Dec 2011 10:30

Btw if none of the birds fly in this week this will be the first year since the start of the flight trials (except for 2004) in which we havent flown a new bird

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2011 09:28

Gurneesh wrote:This indian relationship (or lack of it) with deadlines apart, on the technical side things could be disturbing.

The issue causing delay in LSP 7 flight could be bugging all of LCA ac's or it could be unique to LSP7.

My personal take on this is that if they publicize every issue the LCA faces we would die of anxiety. The only way to remain half sane is to wait patiently knowing that someone is working to fix things. IMO of course

Another personal take: The first flight of the NLCA is not going to make me very thrilled. The NLCA has a lot of work and IMO some of that work is going to be a complete redesign of the landing gear based on stress tests from actual landings done with this NLCA proptotype. I with the program safety and success from the bottom of my heart. I don't care about delays as long as it finally works. I foresee the NLCA going into initial production in the 2016 to 2018 time frame. The ADS will have NLCA by 2020. Until then we can have chai biskoot and I don't mean that in a nasty sense.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Dec 2011 09:29

Slightly OT, but here is an example of a country who is making a "generational leap" in its aircraft production skills:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

The F-35 is already the most costly U.S. weapons program underway at about $385 billion. But that figure may go higher with overrun of the per-plane contract price for the 56 craft being assembled — along with the future multimillion-dollar fixes likely to be required for them — and the 15 F-35s completed but not yet delivered to the military services....cost of each plane had risen nearly 100 percent from its original estimate of $69 million to $133 million today....software — key to 80 percent of the stealth plane’s warfighting capability — wouldn’t be ready for another four years.

McCain said the Pentagon was attempting “generational leaps in capability” but at the same time moving before the underlying design was stable. Developing needed technologies and being able to integrate them remain risky and manufacturing processes are still “immature,” he said. Government Accountability Office report ...forecast was for “about 10,000 more [engineering design] changes through January 2016.”

Not that the F22 did any better. The TFPE stealth aircraft has problems too:

In 2009, faced with several crashes and other problems, plus the oncoming F-35, Gates limited the purchase to 187 F-22s. Reasons given for ending the F-22 program were cost overruns and budget restraints.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 28 Dec 2011 00:47

Anujan wrote:Slightly OT, but here is an example of a country who is making a "generational leap" in its aircraft production skills:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

The F-35 is already the most costly U.S. weapons program underway at about $385 billion. But that figure may go higher with overrun of the per-plane contract price for the 56 craft being assembled — along with the future multimillion-dollar fixes likely to be required for them — and the 15 F-35s completed but not yet delivered to the military services....cost of each plane had risen nearly 100 percent from its original estimate of $69 million to $133 million today....software — key to 80 percent of the stealth plane’s warfighting capability — wouldn’t be ready for another four years.

McCain said the Pentagon was attempting “generational leaps in capability” but at the same time moving before the underlying design was stable. Developing needed technologies and being able to integrate them remain risky and manufacturing processes are still “immature,” he said. Government Accountability Office report ...forecast was for “about 10,000 more [engineering design] changes through January 2016.”
Not that the F22 did any better. The TFPE stealth aircraft has problems too:

In 2009, faced with several crashes and other problems, plus the oncoming F-35, Gates limited the purchase to 187 F-22s. Reasons given for ending the F-22 program were cost overruns and budget restraints.

The bolded line is actually misleading, it is costliest program in the history because it is the largest and replaces platform that were built by multiple less costly programs.

Anyhow it is way over cost, struggling technically and shrinking in size but still the baddest meanest SOB out there.

As it stands.....(IIRC)
Last batch (mix of A,B and C) US bought at $136M a pop
Japs are buying @$114M a pop without weapons

These are low volume initial purchases with higher per unit cost. Price of JSF is slotted (as per latest released budget/plan by PANTAGON director) to drop progressively to $78M per aircraft in later stages when the cost of infra is paid via early stages.

It'll for sure slip as alsmost all ambitious programs do but I think it'll still be much cheaper than Eurocraps (Copyright)......

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Dec 2011 03:31

shiv wrote: The ADS will have NLCA by 2020. Until then we can have chai biskoot and I don't mean that in a nasty sense.

The lessons must be written in an op-ed story and every one made to read. we are okay to chai-biskoot, but we may not be consistently okay with non coherent design methods., especially something is so visible etc. I understand that and this of these stories being created for the first time in our history yadi yada.. but, there are certain aspects, that crosses the boundary of logical thought flow - the case being steroid looks when it is not needed. Where did this spec came from? what was the design input (research/strategy)? did they compare with other naval a/cs?

the world is not cut off from the team n-lca. the internet is wide open from MIT to IISc, and BR to chippanda land.

AMCA must begin with N-AMCA, and at all cost avoid such over engineering /designs. Reasons and bash-me back is acceptable, but glaring mistakes are naaaat!

again, don't generalize and blame all Indians are like that -- please.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Dec 2011 03:36

With the kind of ownership that the IN seems to be taking in the project, with a long term view at the N-AMCA project in future, I think we might see just that. A naval/trainer version preceding the single seat airforce version, to enable a smoother dev curve.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Dec 2011 13:21

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/12/b ... t.html?m=0

In a move that is widely seen as an attempt to push the Tejas programme, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has appointed Air Cmde Raghunathan Nambiar as the Commandant of Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), Bangalore. Nambiar is likely to take charge today as the 20th Commandant of ASTE, picking up his next rank as an Air Vice Marshal (AVM). Nambiar, popularly known as Nambi, was among the first Test pilots associated with the Tejas programme. During the maiden flight of Tejas on January 4, 2001, it was Nambiar who flew the lead chase Mirage aircraft, keeping a close watch on the Technology Demonstrator (TD-1), piloted by Wg Cdr Rajeev Kothiyal, now a commercial pilot and consultant to the National Civil Aircraft Development programme. Nambi's predecessor Air Cmde B.R. Krishna is likely to be joining the National Defence College for a one-year course.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 28 Dec 2011 16:58

krishnan wrote:http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/12/b ... t.html?m=0

In a move that is widely seen as an attempt to push the Tejas programme, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has appointed Air Cmde Raghunathan Nambiar as the Commandant of Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), Bangalore. Nambiar is likely to take charge today as the 20th Commandant of ASTE, picking up his next rank as an Air Vice Marshal (AVM). Nambiar, popularly known as Nambi, was among the first Test pilots associated with the Tejas programme. During the maiden flight of Tejas on January 4, 2001, it was Nambiar who flew the lead chase Mirage aircraft, keeping a close watch on the Technology Demonstrator (TD-1), piloted by Wg Cdr Rajeev Kothiyal, now a commercial pilot and consultant to the National Civil Aircraft Development programme. Nambi's predecessor Air Cmde B.R. Krishna is likely to be joining the National Defence College for a one-year course.

Great.. Nambi is the LGB dood from Kargil !!!!

IIRC, AFM Philip RajKumar wanted him to continue on the LCA program.. but at that time IAF pulled him back into active sqd service..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Dec 2011 17:08

IAF wouldnt have done this unless

1. they were commited to LCA
2. LCA has achieved some major milestones

naird · Post by **naird** » 29 Dec 2011 22:13

Good news about Nambi..

But seriously whats going on ? No test flight updates on ada website ? The last update is from 07-Dec. Has any Jingo caught any LCA action in recent times ? Looks like everything has suddenly gone very quite.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 29 Dec 2011 22:23

naird wrote:Good news about Nambi..

But seriously whats going on ? No test flight updates on ada website ? The last update is from 07-Dec. Has any Jingo caught any LCA action in recent times ? Looks like everything has suddenly gone very quite.

Alas, no sight of an LCA zipping past my study window. Unless they were taking off towards Whitefield. And no news from my chaiwallah as to the weapons tests in Goa and Leh which were ongoing about 30 days back.

naird · Post by **naird** » 29 Dec 2011 22:38

rajanb wrote:
naird wrote:Good news about Nambi..

But seriously whats going on ? No test flight updates on ada website ? The last update is from 07-Dec. Has any Jingo caught any LCA action in recent times ? Looks like everything has suddenly gone very quite.
Alas, no sight of an LCA zipping past my study window. Unless they were taking off towards Whitefield. And no news from my chaiwallah as to the weapons tests in Goa and Leh which were ongoing about 30 days back.

Darn..my chai pan wallahs have also no information..cannot explain this sudden stop in test flights...Maybe Shiv has caught some LCA action..anyways nothing we can do, just wait n watch. and Hope no news is good news.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 Dec 2011 20:49

I keep my hope and faith upon ADA and HAL guys but I am angry and annoyed with you for not flying NP-1 and LSP-7. ON positive note there is still 31-Dec

Best of luck to you... hope better luck in the coming year(s).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2011 20:56

RKumar wrote:I keep my hope and faith upon ADA and HAL guys but I am angry and annoyed with you for not flying NP-1 and LSP-7. ON positive note there is still 31-Dec

Best of luck to you... hope better luck in the coming year(s).

Well saar - Hurricane "Thane" has just hit the Tamil Nadu coast and the weather for the Bangalore region for 30 Dec to 1 Jan is stormy. Enjoy your New Year party and keep your spirits up and hope soaring. And don't drink and drive.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 Dec 2011 21:05

Well I am already drunk with pre new year party ... and I will definitely wouldn't drive.

Wish you and everyone on BRF and everyone else a prosperous, healthy, successful and happy new year 2012

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 31 Dec 2011 09:31

A quick question to Gurus. If the IAF, for the induction, had drawn up a shopping list as must have, which increased the electrical load on the Tejas, wouldn't ADA need a more uprated power source?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Dec 2011 10:12

F414-GE-INS6, by 2013

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Jan 2012 00:56

Tejas program skips 2011

Nothing much here except for the usual R&D that we have been indulging in plenty on this thread of late. Anyways LSP7/8 story is

Sources close to idrw.org have told there was delay in integration of some new sub systems in the aircrafts which lead to delays. Also since this aircrafts will be up for user trials HAL wanted LSP-7/8 aircraft to be fully as per plan and as per customer request.

Apart from this

statement below

HAL and ADA will start working on airframe of the Tejas MK-2 and are still believe that first flight will take by end of 2012, but IAF sources believe that will be rolled out only in 2014.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jan 2012 04:13

I think they should work on Naval Tejas Mk-2 ahead.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jan 2012 11:50

Th delays of 2011 can only be made up if around 9-10 "new" LCAs take off in calender year 2012

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Jan 2012 12:02

suryag wrote:Tejas program skips 2011

Nothing much here except for the usual R&D that we have been indulging in plenty on this thread of late. Anyways LSP7/8 story is
Sources close to idrw.org have told there was delay in integration of some new sub systems in the aircrafts which lead to delays. Also since this aircrafts will be up for user trials HAL wanted LSP-7/8 aircraft to be fully as per plan and as per customer request.
Apart from this statement below
HAL and ADA will start working on airframe of the Tejas MK-2 and are still believe that first flight will take by end of 2012, but IAF sources believe that will be rolled out only in 2014.

That is what my concern has always been. Additional add on requests as we went along leading to difficulty in accommodating additional sub-systems from the view point of space, thermal and electrical power considerations.

But by licking this problem on the MK1, the MK2 would be easier to ramp up from a test/IOC perspective.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Jan 2012 13:02

vic wrote:Th delays of 2011 can only be made up if around 9-10 "new" LCAs take off in calender year 2012

Question is can HAL deliver that many aircraft's ? I am hoping , that we have LSP-7 and LSP-8 aircraft's in air by Jan , followed by SP-1 in March-April , and SP-2 by June and May be LSP-6 by second half of the year , along with SP-3 and SP-4 in end of 2012.

7 to 8 aircraft's including NP-1 at best my bet and worst 4-5 including NP-1 , But going by last years record of 0 , i am little confused

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jan 2012 16:46

I think that LSP 6, 7, 8, NP-1, 2 are already produced, and may be going through final fine tunning. Atleast SP-1 to 4 should be produced in 2012 itself. So I am hoping for atleast 9 LCA to take to air and if not more

nash · Post by **nash** » 02 Jan 2012 17:46

vic wrote:I think that LSP 6, 7, 8, NP-1, 2 are already produced, and may be going through final fine tunning. Atleast SP-1 to 4 should be produced in 2012 itself. So I am hoping for atleast 9 LCA to take to air and if not more

Be optimistic...... i am with you ..

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Jan 2012 19:30

My chaiwala from Bhel , asked his chaiwala who has a chai center near old airport

, and i was slapped with reality .

First lot of 20 aircraft's (SP1-to-SP20), last ones SP15-SP20, will be delivered only in 2014-15.
NP-2 most likely only in 2013
NP-1 and NP-2 will be what TD-1 and TD-2 were in Air force versions (Tech Demonstrator), and only Tejas N-LCA MK-2 (1 to 6), will carry AC Trials after 2015-16 time period , since Tejas MK-2 is priority (2014-15) .
New GE engines will come only in 2013 for Tejas MK-2
Tejas MK-2 Design and structural changes have been frozen some time back .
LSP-6 supposed to be X-permental plane , for S***TH coating , and other spin and recovery test , along with higher AOA

Information is coming from a chaiwallah's friend who is also a chaiwallah

, so i cannot be blamed for any inaccuracy if any