India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[svinayak]

How China plays in south asia

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/06/29/ge ... 16095.html

Beijing wants to diversify its geopolitical strategy towards Pakistan and the South Asia as awhole.

First, Beijing seems to be confident that because of its involvement in military activities inAfghanistan, the U.S. positions in Pakistan have been subtly but irreversibly weakening.The new ‘equation’ of geopolitical power in Central Asia is indicative of China emergingas a dominant economic “actor” in the area. Beijing carries out the tactics of gently pushingthe U.S. out of Pakistan through the time tested and proven practice of foreign economicrelations expansion. In addition, Pakistan is counting on China's substantial financialassistance, as well as cooperation in the ‘classical’ energy field, primarily the constructionof hydropower stations along the lines of tested Chinese projects (based on the experience ofthe ‘Three Gorges’ project on Yangtze River) in the mountains.

Second, true to its strategic principle of ‘economy defines geopolitics,’ China activelyparticipates in the modernisation of transport infrastructure in Pakistan. In fact, theimplementation of projects in this area is subject to reaching a two-in one objective: toensure safe transportation of energy carriers on the Persian Gulf - South China Sea route andlimit the U.S. influence in the regions of the Middle East, South and Central Asia that area ‘sensitive’ spot for China. The above-mentioned project - the Gwadar port in the north-western part of the Arabian Sea - is an ideal place for observing the movement of vehiclesand naval vessels coming from the Persian Gulf towards the East, and - if necessary - canbe used to protect the vehicles delivering energy resources to the Far East. In particular, theactive participation of experts from China in modernising bases and stations of PakistanNavy submarines, which can also be used by Chinese submarines, speaks in favour of thisassumption.

Third, according to media reports, China intends to seek permission to open a military basein Pakistan. Military experts believe that there are at least three strategic objectives pursued:providing a ‘soft’ military-political pressure on India; limiting U.S. influence in Pakistan andAfghanistan; direct supervising over the activities of the ‘Uighur separatists’ in the NWFP ofPakistan.

Fourth, according to Indian press, China has become a major supplier of military equipmentto Pakistan. Currently, the Pakistani army is allegedly armed with Chinese militaryequipment to the tune of 70 percent. Moreover, citing some military sources in Delhi, theIndian press says: If the prospect of receiving the Russian fifth generation fighter by theIndian Air Force is materialised, Pakistan will turn for help to China also carrying research inthis area of ​military construction.
And finally, for Pakistan, China remains an indispensable ally and partner in theimprovement of nuclear weapons and their delivery systems since 1976. And there is noevidence of terminating that assistance in the foreseeable future.

Thus, the strategic policy of China towards Pakistan is a complex symbiosis of at least threegeopolitical ideas: 1) restraining the political Islam influence (i.e. the forces operating fromthe Pakistani territory) on the development of internal processes in China (mainly in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region), 2) limiting the role of India in South Asia, and 3)the ‘gentle replacement’ of the U.S. out of the South and Central Asia.

Does the development of Sino-Pakistan relations affect the interests of Russia? It seems thatthe answer would be yes, and there are two reasons for it.

1. The transformation of Pakistan into a sort of ‘nursery’ of political Islam and internationalterrorism, and the constant threat of ‘exporting’ radical ideas and practices to the adjacentterritories of China and Central Asia cannot leave Russia inactive. It seems that Russia needsa change of foreign policy behaviour algorithm regarding Pakistan, that is, the country'sreturn to the role of active external participant in the South Asia social processes. Theincreasing complexity of the geopolitical ‘equation’ in the region fits the long-term interestsof the Russian Federation, since the struggle for peace in Central Asia, figuratively speaking,begins in Pakistan. Restoration of political dialogue and foreign economic relations with thiscountry to at least the mid-1960s level will allow Russia to actively influence the foreignpolicy of Pakistan.

2. The “return” of Russia to South Asia suggests that there should be an organisational andinstitutional framework appropriate to the given task of maintaining dialogue about thepeace, development and tranquillity of this pivotal region. Discussing and resolving (on amultilateral basis) the security issues of South Asia will enhance the pro-active participationof Russia in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), subject to full membershipin the organisation of India and Pakistan. Moscow can and should balance the active roleof Beijing in this international organisation, keeping in mind that the effectiveness of theSCO as a political tool of international security, ultimately, depends on it. It is also worththinking about Russia's participation in a particular format in the activities of the South AsianAssociation for Regional Cooperation (SAARC).

[vasu raya]

China for all its peaceful rise nonsense is looking to dominate as a super power in the future, which is detrimental to the US supremacy, they have already reduced Russia, and in India's case even if we stretch and draw a long term trajectory is behind so is not in a position to challenge and so far they have successfully used TSP to bound us

My belief is that they want India to play a similar role to bind China in a local scenario, which we have so far wisely refused. That can be re-considered if US chooses to invest in the economic space of India which is long term in nature than the short term military one.

for example, Walmart supply chain is entrenched in China, when asked why they don't consider India, they give grins but no direct answers, no CT here, just that Chinese labor is cheap and they deliver. My conclusion is US can override or give directives to its industry, but it is our responsibility to attract their investment in the first place. The main impediment post 2005 is our limited infrastructure and non-streamlined govt. procedures when measured aganist China. No investor wants to do grass roots work. GoI likewise can relate any alliance on how much of shifting of industry from China to India happens. Currently all we are doing is become a lucrative defence market for the US citing the Chinese threat and to some extent the Paki threat.

Modi can change this (hope he is not parochial), however US govt. is refusing to recognize him and he is leaning towards China. A worse scenario is US treats him as a tin pot dictator and incite the Indian muslims with Paki help or always keep that lever

[svinayak]

for example, Walmart supply chain is entrenched in China, when asked why they don't consider India, they give grins but no direct answers, no CT here, just that Chinese labor is cheap and they deliver.

Chinese lobby is the largest in DC and DC is OK with the money.
This lobby was courted by Nixon and has paid rich dividends to US. One is as a deterrence to Russia and another is to keep the East Asian region dominated by a large powerful country.

India does not even come to the picture

[JE Menon]

"and another is to keep the East Asian region dominated by a large powerful country"

Why would the US want to do that?

[svinayak]

"and another is to keep the East Asian region dominated by a large powerful country"

Why would the US want to do that?

It is the panchatantra story of the old man and his young wife. He will hire a burgler to terrify his wife
All the periphery countries from SK, Japan and Australia will align with US Pacific forces and PACOM will have a reason for dominating the Indo-Pacific ocean.

[svinayak]

Entire Asian geo political moves happens in DC!

[JE Menon]

Two issues with that:

US does not need a reason to dominate. It does so de facto. It has no need to explain this to anyone...

The smaller countries will anyway hedge their bets, and the US being the most powerful will be the first of several they will turn to in any case.

So why does the US need to make an effort to keep China powerful? And of course Japan is no mean player either.

[svinayak]

After the budget cuts US will be a 'pivot player' in Asia and would avoid direct wars. It would work with allies to keep stability and order in the Eurasian theator.

Geo political weight of Japan in military terms is still small to take on East Asia alone.

Few analysts have already told that China is now trapped. It is trapped in the currency/trade with US and also be in good behavior in military terms when the anti China alliance builds up. It is a trade plus military containment to force changes inside PRC. It is complex strategy but there is confusion.

[Roperia]

India inches closer to NSG membership | TOI

US floats a "non-paper" on India's membership at the NSG plenary meeting held on June 22.

The only naysayer is China.

China's reaction to India's inclusion will be a telltale sign of how much have our relations with China improved (or not).

[JE Menon]

Have to disagree with the below perspective. Therefore, some thoughts:

>>After the budget cuts US will be a 'pivot player' in Asia and would avoid direct wars.

On what basis is this assumption made, i.e. that the US would "avoid" direct wars in future. It is avoiding direct wars now, and has been for some time unless it is against Grenada or something. If the suggestion is that it would avoid military confrontation of any kind involving its own defence forces, well that does not gel in any way with its recent posture redefinition - i.e. strengthening in the Pacific. The US will anyhow be a pivot player, i.e not a new reality, even if its relative influence is degraded and it may not fight directly for the next decade so it would "avoid direct wars". But it could well fight in the following decade, so...

>>It would work with allies to keep stability and order in the Eurasian theator.

It has been doing so since the 2nd World War at least, so it is not likely to discontinue that approach - unless the Europeans get uppity and pushes the US out of the zone, but that is not likely to happen in a decade at least, which is probably why the US is not complaining as much as it could about the Eurozone crisis.

>>Geo political weight of Japan in military terms is still small to take on East Asia alone.

The geopolitical weight of Japan is underestimated because Tokyo does not throw it about. And any reportage about its geo-political capacity is remarkably restrained in the West these days, which is a feat in itself. But if it decides to do so, and it probably will (selectively) in the years ahead, China will find its room for manoeuvre impressively constrained in those particular engagements. And of course, there is no need for Japan to take on East Asia alone; it has a most powerful ally in the US, which has - so far at least - not been particularly critical of Japan's calculated military expansion, including a stockpiling of nuclear material over decades. Clearly, given its low-key but very strategically integrated relationship with Japan, the US is not looking at China as the only player in East asia; and given its rapidly upgrading linkages with India, that seems less likely in the future.

>>Few analysts have already told that China is now trapped. It is trapped in the currency/trade with US and also be in good behavior in military terms when the anti China alliance builds up.

In that sense every major country is "trapped" if it does not want globally disruptive instability, including the US. Such is the nature of the commercially intertwined world. And it seems that the US is building up the anti-China alliance as well, which does not quite gel with the idea that it also wants China to be the sole dominant player in East Asia. Unless it is assuming that there will be major war in future that will be limited to the region alone from which it will pick up the pieces - which is of course, the purest fantasy. And then the question remains, after that what? I'm sure the US would have asked itself that question too.

>>It is a trade plus military containment to force changes inside PRC. It is complex strategy but there is confusion."

That appears to be true, i.e. trade plus military containment - which is a rational approach, and a sustainable long-term one - i.e. waiting until China makes a mis-step, which it well might. But that does not mean that the US is supporting China to be the dominant player in East Asia, merely that it is not aggressively challenging the status quo which is one where China's power is increasing in the region, relative to the US, and Washington is quietly but with reassuring declarations building up an alliance of sorts - which will become an "anti-China alliance" should the need arise.

And if India is a nudged into this, reluctantantly and with its typically multi-faceted anxieties (openly declared in the media), then it is questionable whether China's growing dominance of East Asia is being encouraged by the US in reality. Tolerated maybe. India was not in the picture before, but it certainly is now. And the light was seen immediately after the end of the cold war - on both sides. But it takes some time for the whole relationship to be kicked into touch. They play American football. We play test cricket - although a passion for 20-20 suggests the shape of things to come.

[svinayak]

WOW!

[Johann]

Outspending Pakistan ? Pakistan hardly spends anything there in economic or development activities, unless of course the suggestion is to outspend them on terrorist outfits.

If a bullet and bandage both cost a rupee each, and one has four rupees to spend there are obviously choices to be made in how many bullets and how many bandages. Pakistan spends one way, and India spends another, and America in yet another way. They all have their own effects. Will Pakistan's bullets be worth than everyone else's bullets and bandages even after 2014? I doubt it.

Even beyond the simple efforts of governments, there is the larger question of mutual economic dependencies. Is Pakistan going to be the most important source, destination and throughfare for the Afghan economy?

For the very short term yes, but I have my doubts looking down the road to a decade from now. Afghanistan after 1947 drew close to the Soviet Union and then later Iran in the 1970s because Pakistan tried to use economic and transport levers as a weapon in its disputes.

Vital as Soviet projects like the Salang tunnel were, they are dwarfed by the cumulative investment since 9/11. One of the places that all the billions of dollars of external aid to Afghanistan has gone is major infrastructure projects not just from Iran, but from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Even China is looking at bypassing Pakistan through the Wakhan corridor. This is in the background of major infrastructural attempts to more closely integrate Central Asia with Europe and China to build a new silk road.

The silk road is going to transform Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan by shifting the directionality of trade flows, power and influence to something that looks like the pre-1979, and perhaps even the pre-1800 past.

In fact Pakistan might discover that its only real value economically on the global scale is to connect India to the Central Asian section of the silk road.

[nandakumar]

The National Interest magazine has a piece on JFK's efforts at resolving the Kashmir problem. No new insight except to say that the solution should not be geographical settlement but something that makes it irrelevant. he doesn't spell out what contours that could have taken. I suppose that is what Prime Minister Manmohan Singh meant when he famously spoke of how he had no mandate to change the borders but he can make it irrelvant. Here is the link.
http://nationalinterest.org/article/jfk ... ?page=show

[Roperia]

Cross post from TSP thread

Jundal case hints at Pak patronage, say US analysts | TOI

[svinayak]

The silk road is going to transform Afghanistan's relationship with Pakistan by shifting the directionality of trade flows, power and influence to something that looks like the pre-1979, and perhaps even the pre-1800 past.

In fact Pakistan might discover that its only real value economically on the global scale is to connect India to the Central Asian section of the silk road.

This is to ensure that India and Iran do not team up to create an alternate modern version of the silk road.
India will have both. Cant rely on Af Pak region.

[RoyG]

[youtube]B2694Q8M1Vg&feature=plcp[/youtube]

Deconstruction of dharmic traditions. Anyone familiar with the Indus Forum?

[svinayak]

http://indusforum.org/about-us/

The US and India are closer than ever before. The USA was a key supporter of India’s move to gain independence from the British Empire. However, after independence, India decided to go its own way.

Though US firms have long been involved with India as a market and as a business partner (for example in IT and research), it is only recently that the US and India have concluded that their national interests converge. So India is now not only a key business partner, rather the US as a country sees India as a key part of its global strategy. India too regards the US as its most important strategic and business partner. Beyond business and politics, American culture has been exported very successfully into India, and India’s influence on America through spirituality, film, music, cuisine, etc. is on the rise. Meanwhile, the burgeoning number of Indians in the US and their ever growing influence in American life also tie the two countries together at a personal level.

The IndUS Forum is a private initiative, not funded in any form by any government or political party, which brings together the citizens of the US and India, as well as Americans and People of Indian Origin from around the world, for information sharing, educational activities, lectures, discussion, debate, fun, cultural exchange and celebration, and other forms of meaningful exchange beneficial to citizens of both countries.

The Forum seeks to work collaboratively with Indian, US and other universities, professional and religious organizations, and other entities of every sort, provided such efforts do not compromise the Forum’s independence and objectivity.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> However, after independence, India decided to go its own way.

So much for a balanced viewpoint.

[RoyG]

^^I agree. Not much on what really ails india besides the common issues of corruption, the sinking world economy, infrastructure, etc. What I find really interesting is the deconstruction of dharmic traditions, dalit movement, colonial constructs of caste (he doesn't mention the colonial), Protestantism, promotion of a book centered on the global influence of the bible, and modernism. Def a race to establish (reestablish if you're dharmic) an identity for India.

[youtube]AxgaJrm3y88&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[youtube]J6gR6Z6MjG8&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

[abhishek_sharma]

Arjun’s book gives new twist to tale of Warren escape

[Rony]

[shyamd]

For sulking China, war games India won’t tom-tom

SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, July 5: India is participating in the largest US-led naval war games but shhhhh, don’t tell anyone because China does not like it.

An Indian Navy commodore will join nearly 45,000 soldiers from 22 countries at Hawaii for RIMPAC 2012, hosted by the US Pacific Command.

RIMPAC is a real warfare exercise involving aircraft carriers, submarines, live firing, aircraft, anti-submarine warfare and amphibious operations by elements like the Marine Corps. The scale of this edition of RIMPAC most likely makes it the largest maritime warfare exercise.

RIMPAC, held once every two years, began in 1971 as a drill to stave off the Soviet Pacific fleet during the Cold War years. But since then it has evolved into war games that the US hosts with rim of the Pacific Ocean countries in scenarios that envisage North Korea invading South Korea or hostilities in the event of Taiwan declaring its independence from China.

Russia has joined RIMPAC for the first time this year with four warships. The Indian participation is token. Its naval attaché based in Washington DC has been asked to represent the Indian Navy. Navy sources said India was an “observer” at the exercises that began on June 27 and will continue till August 7. But the official website for RIMPAC 2012 lists the Indian Navy representative as a “fleet component commander”.

The scale of this year’s exercise and the Indian participation has attracted adverse comments from China, which has not been invited.

“The United States is using this exercise to show off its military strength, seeking military alliances in order to contain the military rise of another country in the region. Such (a) scheme is so thoroughly exposed now,” Chinese Communist Party newspaper People’s Daily has observed.

“It is obvious that the purpose of the U.S. calling in these many allies to conduct joint exercises is to exert pressure onto certain neighbouring countries through military drills, as well as to (examine) the combat readiness of the U.S. military,” the newspaper said.

The Chinese are particularly angry over the participation of India and Russia.

In a statement in Hawaii on Wednesday, Vice-Admiral Gerald Beaman, the chief of the US Navy’s Third Fleet and the commander of RIMPAC 2012 said: “It is going to be very significant and the main reason we are building these maritime partnerships during the RIMPAC exercises is exactly why we want to maintain our relationship with India, to help provide stable and secure international commerce through the sea-lanes…Our relationship with India will remain significant during the coming years.”

The importance accorded to India’s participation, token though it may be, by the US coincides with the alteration of the Pentagon’s strategic “rebalancing” of forces from the Middle East to the Asia-Pacific. US defence secretary Leon Panetta had said in New Delhi last month that nearly six carrier battle groups of the US would be deployed in the Asia-Pacific region.

The Indian Navy believes that participating in such exercises helps it keep abreast of modern trends in naval warfare. RIMPAC 2012, for example, is showcasing what has come to be called “the great green fleet”. In a one of its kind deal, the US bought tens of thousands of gallons of biofuel that will power the vessels in the exercise.

But India’s participation in RIMPAC 2012 tests defence minister A.K. Antony’s insistence that Indian forces should only engage in bilateral exercises and not be seen as part of a potential coalition. China had objected to the Malabar exercise in 2007 that India hosted in the Bay of Bengal. Though the Malabar series is with the US, five other navies had participated in that exercise.

Last month, four Indian ships also berthed at China’s Shanghai port and engaged in a friendly passage exercise.

[ramana]

what convoluted writing in above piece!!!

The exercise is led by a Vice Admiral. An INS Commodore is like Rear Admiral (Lower Half) in USN. So the rank is appropriate. The exercise has 45,000 personnel from 22 countries! And even then Indian presence is a token one with the participation of the naval attache in DC!

RIMPAC is a real warfare exercise involving aircraft carriers, submarines, live firing, aircraft, anti-submarine warfare and amphibious operations by elements like the Marine Corps. The scale of this edition of RIMPAC most likely makes it the largest maritime warfare exercise.

RIMPAC, held once every two years, began in 1971 as a drill to stave off the Soviet Pacific fleet during the Cold War years. But since then it has evolved into war games that the US hosts with rim of the Pacific Ocean countries in scenarios that envisage North Korea invading South Korea or hostilities in the event of Taiwan declaring its independence from China.

Russia has joined RIMPAC for the first time this year with four warships. The Indian participation is token. Its naval attaché based in Washington DC has been asked to represent the Indian Navy. Navy sources said India was an “observer” at the exercises that began on June 27 and will continue till August 7. But the official website for RIMPAC 2012 lists the Indian Navy representative as a “fleet component commander”.

Yet Telegraph is exulting as that mouse!

Its this DDM attitude that makes Indian media unreliable.

[KLNMurthy]

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1309343

TSP thread has discussion of US being inimical to India due to its support of TSP and the need for India to openly oppose USA, even perhaps joining with TSP for the purpose.

This is tending towards confused thinking. India and the US have a shared destiny, with the US as a subsidiary of India. We should be protecting and supporting the core values and uvp of US, this is not done by expending ourselves in hackneyed commie type anti-americanism.

Consider NRIs as historical evolution's deep-undercover viral change agents that will bring US into India's orbit. Present cases of MUTU ism can be understood as (unconscious) these agents going "native" in the cause of eventual Indian takeover of US.

[member_23626]

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1309343

TSP thread has discussion of US being inimical to India due to its support of TSP and the need for India to openly oppose USA, even perhaps joining with TSP for the purpose.

This is tending towards confused thinking. India and the US have a shared destiny, with the US as a subsidiary of India. We should be protecting and supporting the core values and uvp of US, this is not done by expending ourselves in hackneyed commie type anti-americanism.

Consider NRIs as historical evolution's deep-undercover viral change agents that will bring US into India's orbit. Present cases of MUTU ism can be understood as (unconscious) these agents going "native" in the cause of eventual Indian takeover of US.

KLN saar, I highly respect your opinions but US has lost it's brain to arrogance and over confidence, allying with these doofuses will ultimately harm our interests, don't think that US will kowtow on our lines, they have deep and wide network of MUTUS in India and abroad (Indologists/India experts/Indian History experts/Colonial apologetics etc. can be found in huge numbers in yamreeka).. do watch Rajiv Malhotra's video on how US is trying to create chaos in India by using it's missionaries and human right/NGO brigade, these idiots just cannot be trusted.

[Altair]

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1309343
TSP thread has discussion of US being inimical to India due to its support of TSP and the need for India to openly oppose USA, even perhaps joining with TSP for the purpose.
This is tending towards confused thinking. India and the US have a shared destiny, with the US as a subsidiary of India. We should be protecting and supporting the core values and uvp of US, this is not done by expending ourselves in hackneyed commie type anti-americanism.

Commies hate Americans for a different reason than what I hate them for. I hate Americans for using their money and military power to manipulate Pakistan and Indian government to harm mango Indian and Bharat. A friend would certainly not do that.
I consider America a potent and dangerous enemy to India which must be dealt with one day in future. They wanna bomb the cr@p outta jihadi islamists, I welcome it. I only care about India.
The only shared vision/destiny India and US have is scientific advancement of humankind for the benefit of our species.Thats it! Period.Everything else is a big pile of animal excreta.

[SaiK]

That shared vision is a small golf field, while you may compare the whole Earth available with American 20/2020 sight.

[KLNMurthy]

KLN saar, I highly respect your opinions but US has lost it's brain to arrogance and over confidence, allying with these doofuses will ultimately harm our interests, don't think that US will kowtow on our lines, they have deep and wide network of MUTUS in India and abroad (Indologists/India experts/Indian History experts/Colonial apologetics etc. can be found in huge numbers in yamreeka).. do watch Rajiv Malhotra's video on how US is trying to create chaos in India by using it's missionaries and human right/NGO brigade, these idiots just cannot be trusted.

+1 to what you say about the US problem. It is a talented but misguided brat who thinks he is in charge. We have allowed ourselves to believe that as well. So we either give in (MMS, MUTUism etc) or we air out the problem of US dominance (Malhotra). In the latter there is a presumption that US control should be resisted to keep India independent. But this is also wrong-- mere independence is too limited and impossible to achieve to boot; the solution, and problem, are Indic dominance of US and how to bring that about. From a historical evolution pov (psychohistory or the course of dharma if you like) US is instinctively aware of this destiny of Indic dominance and its efforts are to create a maya to resist this agenda of dharma.

[KLNMurthy]

Commies hate Americans for a different reason than what I hate them for. I hate Americans for using their money and military power to manipulate Pakistan and Indian government to harm mango Indian and Bharat. A friend would certainly not do that.
I consider America a potent and dangerous enemy to India which must be dealt with one day in future. They wanna bomb the cr@p outta jihadi islamists, I welcome it. I only care about India.
The only shared vision/destiny India and US have is scientific advancement of humankind for the benefit of our species.Thats it! Period.Everything else is a big pile of animal excreta.

that is certainly a valid pov and I agree with the outcome of jointly benefitting mankind. I put down my thoughts on the "higher destiny" of Indo-US relationship in my reply to Sridhar. Please consider them.

[KLNMurthy]

That shared vision is a small golf field, while you may compare the whole Earth available with American 20/2020 sight.

I don't follow. Can you please elaborate?

[Altair]

That shared vision is a small golf field, while you may compare the whole Earth available with American 20/2020 sight.

I don't follow. Can you please elaborate?

I think he meant that the common ground(vision) of India and US is just the size of a golf field,which is well manicured and maintained. The entire rest of the planet is the area of divergent India-US interests. I agree with SaiK. We will be fooling ourselves big time if we feel that the entire earth is similar to a well maintained golf field.
IMHO, India and US simply cannot be friends. We have a civilizational divide which cannot be filled even in another 1000 years. Let us not get carried away.

[shiv]

Consider NRIs as historical evolution's deep-undercover viral change agents that will bring US into India's orbit. Present cases of MUTU ism can be understood as (unconscious) these agents going "native" in the cause of eventual Indian takeover of US.

I predict that this will last for a maximum of one generation. Once a child is born and grows up in the US - he becomes American and his attitudes will change. I have seen that happening among Brits and I know children of 1st gen Indians who emigrated to Britain in the 60s. The children are in their late 30s/early 40s and are Brits to the core and display all the supercilious contempt that white Brits have stopped showing so as to be PC. And I see it happening in Indian American kids.

It is only the generation of Indians who migrated to the US who can be relied on to love India. Not their children. At best those children will be neutral/unconcerned about India. Or they will play for "US interests", as is their right, and it will be the same as now.

[Lalmohan]

shiv - i am not so sure. 2nd gen kids have different levels of alegiance to their hosts and heritage, its a function of overall hostility to their heritage amongst their hosts. e.g. when india play england at lords (or anywhere else in the uk), 80% of the crowd (mostly desis) is supporting india; uk society is able to absorb this 'dissent' (probably because this same crowd is 80-90% behind the english football team); i dont think the us model allows this degree of multi-allegiance

[shiv]

shiv - i am not so sure. 2nd gen kids have different levels of alegiance to their hosts and heritage, its a function of overall hostility to their heritage amongst their hosts. e.g. when india play england at lords (or anywhere else in the uk), 80% of the crowd (mostly desis) is supporting india; uk society is able to absorb this 'dissent' (probably because this same crowd is 80-90% behind the english football team); i dont think the us model allows this degree of multi-allegiance

Possibly. But we have to see. it cannot be taken for granted. 2nd and 3rd gen kids are citizens of a foreign country whose foreign policy is often inimical to India. India would likely welcome those descendants of Indian like long lost children, but those long lost children are likely to have US interests at heart. That would be natural - with them being US citizens.

[Lalmohan]

i think you are absolutely right about US citizens, the US model insists that immigrants become american whole heartedly

[pentaiah]

Never forget the distinction between American citizens aka Aam admi ( who are generally fair and understanding and as much bigoted as any other people's of the world) and GOTUS
which is most often down right anti India.

Prior to 1998 we were looked upon a bumbling nation with no real threat and competition
Since then India is often counted as potential enemy as Penetta (the American pentaiah)
Let the cat out of the bag sometime ago

[member_20292]

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1309343

TSP thread has discussion of US being inimical to India due to its support of TSP and the need for India to openly oppose USA, even perhaps joining with TSP for the purpose.

This is tending towards confused thinking. India and the US have a shared destiny, with the US as a subsidiary of India. We should be protecting and supporting the core values and uvp of US, this is not done by expending ourselves in hackneyed commie type anti-americanism.

Consider NRIs as historical evolution's deep-undercover viral change agents that will bring US into India's orbit. Present cases of MUTU ism can be understood as (unconscious) these agents going "native" in the cause of eventual Indian takeover of US.

This is one of the most far sighted posts that I have read in BR for the longest amount of time.

I agree and was thinking along the same lines for a long while. America, is going to be far more pliable to Indian interests, slowly, than India is to American interests. There are so many immigrants from India in high places, in America.....these are the people who are going to be doing this influencing.

I dont expect a Bobby Jindal or a Nikki Haley to behave Indian like, but I do expect the Indian america first generation, managers, engineers etc. to make the US far more pro Indian than it is right now.

Already, I find a lot of people starting to support India openly. Slowly this is going to increase.

Good luck to China...suppressing their citizens political rights at home and then expecting them to act as ambassadors of their country when abroad....no chance! The Indian populace is far more influential in the US, as far as I know. Americans listen to us, and are compatible to be working with with common values of hard work and family life etc.. I remember JJ Singh coming to my university to give a lecture, APJ Abdul Kalam, etc...etc...etc...so all in all plenty of Indian influence in America.

[RajeshA]

I think there is a good chance of turning America "Hindu" in the next 40 years. Their way of going about in the world may not change that much, but their identification may change from presently "Christian" nation to "Hindu" nation in the future.

After all all Aryans came from India, and Dharmic spirituality offers a deeper spiritual depth than some other religions.

Only if this happens, can India expect that USA has friendly intentions towards India. Before that it is all just propaganda!

Friendship between USA and India can only be on India's terms, for we are the older civilization.

[RamaY]

^ +1.

My recommendation to yindutvavaadis... go participate in things where locals dominate. One example is various forms of yoga. Also when you present a murthi of Ganesh/Hanuma/Shiva etc., please explain the symbolic and spiritual meaning behind it.

Tell our stories when you get their attention... one story at a time... but be sure that you talk about the underlying astronomy, spirituality. For that please prepare well and completely to explain the story in modern/western context and answer supplementary questions. More than anything else reaffirm - IMHO, the three foundations of SD - Dharma (one life), Punarjanma (many lives), Advaita-Bhavana (immortality).

[svinayak]

Never forget the distinction between American citizens aka Aam admi ( who are generally fair and understanding and as much bigoted as any other people's of the world) and GOTUS
which is most often down right anti India.

Prior to 1998 we were looked upon a bumbling nation with no real threat and competition
Since then India is often counted as potential enemy as Penetta (the American pentaiah)
Let the cat out of the bag sometime ago

The Oil lobby and other countries lobby inside US have a created a large constituency against India in the policy making group. Increasing US oil imports have given influence to this oil lobby and Pak lobby to use the US global media against India.
http://dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00144&cat_id=20


There is the Chinese lobby which has the support of the trade lobby. Both of them have combined and kept India out of the GOTUS. PRC and KSA have played a strong role after 911 to keep Pakistan still relevant inside DC.
Chinese lobby has become powerful over the last 20 years and literally call the shots in some areas.


http://www.npr.org/2012/01/24/145719179 ... g-ramps-up