Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 24 Jul 2014 06:50

I'm copying-and-pasting this comment from the "Vineyard of the Saker" blog.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/ ... aling.html
__________________________

Russian TV stations show the BUKs (3) as "Plan B"...if the Su-25 failed to take out the airliner, then one would have the shot.

Based on the "dots" laid out by the The Defense Ministry on Monday, the news channels are showing ex-head of Russian AF and and AF colonel who connect the dots.

1.) a BUK would blow the airliner into confetti..a snow of peices would cover a very wide "crash field". Therefore, a BUK did NOT take out the plane.

The Su-25 was vectored to ascend rapidly towards the airline from the side and from below, releaseing an AtoA missle at its flight apogee which then crossed the left wing on a trajectory that ended in the cockpit. Wreckage demonstrates vertical ragged rips crossing the left wing tip section and the cockpit is sprayed with penetrating holes. All consistent with the rods thrown by the AtoA. This caused the wing to break (as well as took out the flight crew, resulting in the crash of a relatively intact aircraft as evidenced by the compact debris field.

The airliner was diverted by traffic control; change of route and lower altitude so it would be a "cake" shot for the pop-out fighter (the AtoA has a 3-5k gauranteed kill range which when added to the max altitude of the Su's flight envelope of 10,000m required the airliner to descend within easy reach.)

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 24 Jul 2014 07:01

Regarding MH17, this analyst (and American military veteran) calmly rebuts the lies of the BBC presenter. It's worth watching in full: it's only five minutes long.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Jul 2014 07:06

UlanBatori wrote:
Please sir.

The US is incapable of detecting a SAM launch in the manner they do their isharebazzi.
HOW DARE YOU? It was detected on FaceBook AND Twitter!

For being such a smart yak herder I guess you've never heard of the term Synthetic Aperture Radar and the ability to detect 3-4 times below the theoretical noise floor?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Jul 2014 08:00

ravi_g wrote:Mort Walker ji,

You are making it sound like it is an issue regarding air travel safety. Certifications do not make a place safe. It is the other way round, that is if it ever comes to that.

And what is with this name calling of Pro-Russian militia. What have they done to India or Indian interests? Ukrainians behaved like a maoist possessed Nepal and if they think they can get away with it then let's see what Putin has to say on this.

The Russians have sent the bodies and the black box what more can they do.

This is entirely about commercial air travel safety. Trade depends on it and on a side note notice how the Israelis are howling that the US has temporarily banned flights to Tel Aviv due to fears of someone shooting down a civilian airliner. ICAO and Eurocontrol certification is all we have and passengers are not given a choice in the air corridor or flight plan, we take our chances on the good faith of the flight crew and air traffic control. MH-17 did not deviate any more than other flights in that and adjacent corridors.

What have the thug Cossacks done to India or Indian interests? Don't forget it was just luck by chance that the Air India flight to Birmingham wasn't shot down. International air travel is about to become expensive for all of us because of this incident. Either that or flights will now stop in to any perceived conflict zone. Don't be surprised the pakis get ideas for blackmail.

Yes, the pro-Russian Uk separatists are thug Cossacks. The Cossacks being a militia type enforcers and their paki behavior in this whole sordid episode. Not all bodies have been returned nor any organized international civil aviation body allowed to fully recover critical crash debris for investigation on timely basis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2014 08:07

its the gentleman ukrainians who are running around bombarding their own countrymen with artillery and fighter jets.

the thug cossacks are just defending their own homeland. they have no ambition to take over other people's lands.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Jul 2014 08:23

^^^As said before the Uk are no saints and are crooked to the core. Defending their homeland by shooting down a civilian airliner is rather odd. It is paki behavior.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Jul 2014 08:47

Could it have been an air-to-air missile?
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... y-ttg.html

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 24 Jul 2014 09:13

Mort Walker ji,

I agree Air travel safety is not entirely divorced from all this. But kindly allow me some leeway in how I would explain some other PoVs.

The tussle in Ukraine is Great Power Game that is today destroying a civilization. These Ukrainians and Russians are all of the same jati/classification. Any clash between the two will hurt both - Slavic bravado be damned. It is exactly like India and Pakistan be set upon each other's throat and for exactly that purpose. In such grave circumstances to worry about travel safety even when the travelers and cargo haulers have the last considered decision in their hands completely independent of what the thug cossacks may be doing does not sound convincing enough a complaint.

The SAR you talk about has even lesser of a chance then the IR sensors on board the Geostationary sats that the Ameirkhans are trotting out. Come on man you guys are engineers (I am a mere accountant). Even I know that the waves traveling two way will attenuate much more then those traveling one way. The incline orbit sats probably with SAR also in addition to the IR sensors will have very be cued by some staring device to be able to figure out that what they see is a SAM. In addition they had to lauch a 5000 KN rocket to detect it from 1300 km (tail end). The SAM would be what! 30 KN for 5 seconds. The odds are stacked simply too steep against the bright minds in the west. That is why the talkativeness of the political leadership in the west. The technical guys in the west are silent - probably because they know too well and too much. And if the Amerikhans did not see the SAM then all they saw is what we all saw and if they arrive at a different claim then they better bring along a proper evidence for their claims.

Additionally SAM would not find it challenging to kill to a confetti, a big airliner. And if it does find it challenging then Russians manufacturers, Russian reputation and security of all Russian military equipment clients is a myth. On the contrary we hear the western talking heads (of state!) claim that first generation Buks are deadly and similar hyperbole comes from lifafa journalists. These are in essence two contradictory claims from the west (chit bhi meri pat bhi meri aunty mere baap ki

)

Frankly speaking you could simply be ignoring the manipulation angle. Messing up the enemy radar is a common place counter. Even if there was a SAM involved why do you simply not consider that the user of the SAM could have been tricked into it by the only people who can place such devices in that part of the world.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2014 09:39

the usa usa boys on milphotos.net forums are strangely subdued from day1 of this mess. perhaps because no real evidence has been put on the table yet.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2014 10:18

If Russia is behind MH17 crash, where’s the evidence? – Defense Ministry

Russia has so far been the only nation to release evidence related to the MH17 crash, the Defense Ministry said, urging other countries to follow suit. Though there have been a lot of claims of Russia’s involvement, none have been backed by proof.

The US claims its intelligence data and satellite imagery confirm that the missile which downed MH17 was fired from rebel-controlled territory. So far it’s only a claim that has to be supplemented by proof, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov said in an emotional address released on Thursday.

“Where is this data? Why hasn’t it been made public? Is it because it is still being cooked, if I may say so?” Antonov asked in the statement. “By the way, one of the four US experts reportedly said that Russia may have been involved in creating conditions for the launch of this missile. It was nice, of course, of the other three that they did not say anything, but what about the fourth? Does he have any grounds to make such accusations? Or is it something predetermined?”

Antonov wondered how the bulk of accusations that Russia has been facing could possibly be based on unverified material taken from social media.

“US intelligence officials refer to some photos posted on social networks which allegedly show a missile launcher crossing the border between Russia and Ukraine. What exactly are they talking about? Are they talking about a picture of a Ukrainian Buk being transported somewhere by Ukrainians on a prime mover with a white cab, made in the town of Krasnoarmeysk, which has long been controlled by the Ukrainian military? Or maybe they are talking about a photograph of Buk No. 312? If so, there is another picture of the same launcher rolling as part of a Ukrainian armor column. Gentlemen, are you implying that this is the launcher that fired the missile? If so, demand an explanation from Kiev.”

Antonov reminded that following the plane crash, the Russian Defense Ministry released monitoring data related to the accident. Based on this information, the ministry developed a number of questions for Ukraine and other countries which are blaming Russia for the tragedy. The questions have remained unanswered.

The Russian Defense Ministry would like to know, for example, why the US rules out the possibility that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian military.

“This begs the question: are US experts ready to assume responsibility for their claims? Do they know where all the SAM launchers are deployed in Ukraine? What do they have to say about the monitoring data presented by Russia? Do they ignore it simply because there is nothing for them to say?”

Speaking about accusations of Russian military build-up on the border with Ukraine, Antonov recalled “nine instances of Russian territory coming under fire in the course of June and July” from Ukraine. One of those instances turned fatal for a Russian citizen, Andrei Shulyatyev.

“What if US territory was shelled from a neighboring country and, God forbid, a US citizen was killed?” Antonov asked.

“What would the United States do? I think the answer is obvious. Yet Russia is behaving in a reserved and responsible manner. It is therefore self-evident who is trying to provoke whom at the border. Why don’t you take note of the constant rocket shelling of Donetsk and Lugansk instead, which claims civilian lives?”

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Jul 2014 10:29

Mort Walker wrote:^^^As said before the Uk are no saints and are crooked to the core. Defending their homeland by shooting down a civilian airliner is rather odd. It is paki behavior.

In fact, we don't know whether the rebels shot down the airliner or not. Nobody does, nobody is claiming that they know, if we discount the bluster.

We can construct a reasonable scenario of what happened from the facts, without pre-judging who was responsible for the crash of the airliner.

We do know that it came down in rebel territory, and from the first instant, Ukraine and its Western sponsors were blaming them for it. So, the rebels would have been naturally mistrustful of any Ukrainian government steps to handle the post-crash removal of bodies, preliminary investigation of crash site etc. At the same time, surely they had no expertise in correct handling of crash remains. Russia could have done it but they didn't want to cross the border. I think that's why they let matters slide for a couple of days, while they were trying to figure out what to do with the mess on their hands. During this time, they surely mismanaged the safeguarding of the site, allowing various undisciplined and probably semi-criminal members of their militia to tamper with the bodies, steal credit cards etc. After about 3-4 days, maybe with Russian advice behind the scenes, they got their act together after a fashion, put the bodies in refrigerated freight cars and shipped them off to Ukraine on the way to Holland. Same thing with the black box etc.

What happened after the crash, the way it happened, was because the aircraft fell in a war zone with no proper government in control. All the vituperations about how the rebels are dirty scoundrels, or racist comments that they are cossacks onlee, are not called for, in this particular context. (If there is some point in discussing supposed barbarity of cossacks in general, then maybe there can be a thread for it. I understand that Ukrainians themselves are some variety of cossack tribes, so that can get complicated fast).

Short of just surrendering to the Ukrainian government, the rebels did the best they possibly could, in my view. Even the Americans changed their tone, after calling them every name in the book; they are now saying, this would not have happened if the Russians didn't support the rebellion (which happened some months back already, and the Russians were in no position to know that something like this would happen, any more than the Americans would have known that when they got involved in the Iran-Iraq war on the side of Iraq, they would end up shooting down the IranAir flight.) in the first place etc. In other words, the Americans too are down to blaming the situation, not the actors. it is a different matter that they and Russia blame each other for the situation itself. Of course, having the political agenda they have, the Americans and Europeans are doing their best to intimidate the rebels into surrendering, using this tragedy as a pretext. That is only to be expected, since they are fighting a proxy war with the Russians and would like to win.

But Indians are not at war with Russians, not looking to "win" anything, and therefore have no reason to automatically back the words of the enemies of the Russians. Likewise with the Americans and the West. We can afford to be objective, and do our own independent analysis. That is, try to arrive at the truth as much as possible, which would be a good thing, especially since this is a flight path many of us have taken in the past with our families. Obviously, going along with a false, politically-motivated analysis of the reasons will mean that any real problems that can be addressed won't get addressed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2014 10:31

US has in past 2 days toned down their rhetoric and accusation , Now quoting anonymous intel sources they mention they dont have any proof of Russia hitting the aircraft but Russia has created the condition for shooting down the aircraft ....what ever that means.

All I see as long as Obama is the POTUS , Russia-US relation would go downhill from here.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Jul 2014 10:46

Austin wrote:US has in past 2 days toned down their rhetoric and accusation , Now quoting anonymous intel sources they mention they dont have any proof of Russia hitting the aircraft but Russia has created the condition for shooting down the aircraft ....what ever that means.

All I see as long as Obama is the POTUS , Russia-US relation would go downhill from here.

I wonder what is the likelihood that, as a result of the way this incident was handled, the Iranian nuclear domino will fall with a boom, leading to Saudi Arabia declaring its Paki nukes.

I'd say the ball is in Putin's court--he can decide to still cooperate with US to bring Iran into line, and the US is probably gambling that he would.

Maybe he will swallow Azerbaijan to "teach a lesson" to both Iranians, Muslims in general, and US at one and the same time? Just kidding, that would mean real war, wouldn't it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2014 10:51

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Ai ... #Shootdown

if we look back at history, a S-200 missile missed its drone , and instead took out a commercial plane 150 miles ie 250km further away!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_Angara/Vega/Dubna
its a huge missile with a 300km range.
The system utilises radio semi active guidance with mid-course correction and has, for the first time in a Russian system, terminal active radar homing, which is far more accurate at long range than the command guidance method used by the S-75 Dvina and other missiles.

Main radar system[edit]
The fire control radar of the S-200 system is the 5N62 (NATO: Square Pair) CW H band radar, whose range is 270 km (170 mi). It is used for both the tracking of targets and their illumination.

--
the small old onboard active radar could no way lock on to anything flying 250km away..it would max have a range of around 50km.

the ukrainians were pretty daft to let such a powerful mach8 LR hound get off the leash, run feral for a while, before homing in on the hapless plane over the sea.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2014 11:32

KLNMurthy wrote:I wonder what is the likelihood that, as a result of the way this incident was handled, the Iranian nuclear domino will fall with a boom, leading to Saudi Arabia declaring its Paki nukes.

I'd say the ball is in Putin's court--he can decide to still cooperate with US to bring Iran into line, and the US is probably gambling that he would.

Maybe he will swallow Azerbaijan to "teach a lesson" to both Iranians, Muslims in general, and US at one and the same time? Just kidding, that would mean real war, wouldn't it?

Yes the P5+1 negotiation havent gone well with US asking more than what Iran wants to give and Russian stating Iran should not give or take more than any other NPT country would do. ( That IIRC is also India's Stand on Iran Nuke issue )

So right now thats extended till December ....... I really do not see how much Iran will be willing to bend here , Saudi has nukes via Pak , Israels does too ........see no reason why IRanians shouldnt have them either via Noko or some one else. Iran has one of the most Advance IRBM developmentn ME so making a simple Fission Bomb is no rocket science these days as long as they have enough enriched Uranium or Pu

And yes Russian have saved Iranian Ass many times in the UN by Vetoing down one sided resolution....so they do have infulence over Iran and Iran knows it does not have many friends with Veto power.

The World is complex and all times are not the same , It impossible for West and specially for the US to remain hostile to Russia and get things done their way , considering even China too has joined Russia and both have vetoed resolutions against Syria and both presidents have stated they will jointly work in the UN.

Also a reason why West does not want to expand the P5 , as countries like Brasil and India would be objective in their work and more likely to hurt Western Interest and BRICS would end up with 4 Veto Nations or may be 5

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 24 Jul 2014 11:55

Philip wrote (page 64):

The British true to form have dusted off the assassination of low-level Russian defector Litvinenko,who was in the pay of western intel agencies and anti-Russian oligarchs,in their failed attempt to pin the blame on Putin.The pattern is very clear.The US and West want Russia to be led not by a strong ,decisive leader like Putin,but a drunken oaf like Yeltsin,who allowed oligarchs in tow with Western corporate raiders to steal Russia's crown jewels which Putin in large part succeeded in recovering for Mother Russia by successful legal actions against the thieves.That was an unpardonable sin for the crony capitalists of the West who were doing the very same in India thanks to Quisling Singh's venal and corrupt regime.

Very much so. This is what guides Western foreign policy:

1. Securing access to the natural resources of others under conditions that amount to looting.

2. Preventing others (in the "non-Western" camp) from being strong and independent enough to chart their own future.

Of course these objectives overlap each other.

President Putin restored Russian control over Russia's energy resources and over Russia's politics, and the EU/US hate him precisely because of this.

I admire and respect how President Putin call things by their name.

Obviously, you are right about the policies of the UPA/Congress clan: what was the need to allow Walmart et al. access to India's retail sector? But this is off topic.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2014 13:08

India's nuclear jewels too are up for sale.The Hindu in a surprisingly pro-nuclear Indian take,has a long article on the corner we have painted ourselves in (tx to MMS) ,will post in the N-td. too.
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/k ... 242499.ece

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... -jets-mh17
Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets days after downing of MH17
Ukrainian military spokesman says planes were brought down about 16 miles from site of Malaysia Airlines crash

Pro-Russia rebels have shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in eastern Ukraine just days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, a Ukrainian military spokesman has said.

"Two Sukhoi Ukrainian fighter jets have been shot down. The fate of the pilots is not known," a spokesman, Oleksiy Dmytrashkivsky, said, adding that the planes had been brought down about 16 miles (25km) from the MH17 crash site.

A second military spokesman, however, said insurgent rocket fire had brought the jets down at a different location. The two pilots managed to parachute out, he said, giving no further details about their condition.

"Today in the south of the Lugansk region close to the village of Dmytrivka, pro-Russia fighters shot two Su-25 jets from a missile system," the spokesman Vladislav Seleznev said.

"The pilots took evasive action … but the planes were hit," he said.

A spokesman for the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic said its fighters had shot down the two aircraft. An AFP crew trying to reach the scene was turned back by rebels, who fired shots near their car about six miles from Dmytrivka.

The downing of the fighter jets comes just six days after the insurgents were accused of shooting down the Malaysian passenger plane using a surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 people on board.

Pro-Russia rebels battling government troops in the east had previously taken out a string of Ukrainian military aircraft during the conflict. Rebels have denied that they downed flight MH17, accusing the Ukrainian military of being responsible.

The latest incident came after a ceasefire was declared by both sides in the immediate vicinity of the Boeing 777 crash site, where Malaysian experts and international monitors were examining the wreckage on Wednesday.

Earlier, the first 40 bodies recovered from MH17 were flown out of the government-held city of Kharkiv to Eindhoven in the Netherlands, where they were met by bereaved families and members of the Dutch royal family.

This must be quite a kick int the teeth for the Chocolate Soldier,apart from a spear up his nether end,as he would've thought that the Donetsk Republic forces would go quiet and shy away from attacks against his air farce,which has suffered several casualties.It also speaks for the confidence of the Donetsk forces to continue their attacks against UKR forces despite the tragedy,confident in the knowledge that they were not responsible and will be proven not to have done the deed.The continuing military details emanating from Russia are gradually tilting the balance of opinion away from the UKR/US propaganda machine which cannot come up with any hard evidence. The hard truth is that only the UKR forces had BUK SAMs, and only they could identify high flying aircraft.It is ridiculous to imagine that the D-forces would simply let fly a SAM in the hope of hitting something! Since the US cannot provide proof as well,the rhetoric is being toned down,apart from its yapping poodles in Londonistan!

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 24 Jul 2014 14:38

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460625#

What is it with flight disappearances / crashings? Though this news isn't E Europe / Ukraine relevant, its another shocker. Now Algerian flight that's gone missing from the radar. Boy, are we slipping into a full fledged war?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2014 14:54

Read there are 110 passengers onboard , Hoping they are safe and sound

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jul 2014 14:55

ukraine is now claiming the missiles that brought down the two su25 were fired from inside russian territory.

levels of violence and chaos in africa are massive. 82 were bombed to death in nigeria alone yesterday.
whoever can make it (ie young and able bodied) is running away...leaving the young, women and old people behind
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/world ... nated.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2014 15:15

The devil alone knows what the UKR junta are on,crack,meth,hash,coke,whatever.Every time they lose an aircraft or helo,they scream,"it's Russia wot's done it!! Not to wory.Uncle Sam's mil. manufacturers must be licking their chops at the opportunity of replacing the UKR's aviation losses.Of course paid for by the bankrupt UKR people!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2014 15:22

Singha wrote:ukraine is now claiming the missiles that brought down the two su25 were fired from inside russian territory.

They have claimed that for past downing of fighter jets and also made claim that 777 was fired from Russia.

The present Ukraine government is a zombie , they just do what their US masters tell them to do , they have been effectively taken over by US and just working as proxy

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Jul 2014 16:30

It seems that the US UK combine are essentially working with week long news cycle. Where they are triggering a new crises every week. Pushing closer to a war that their populations have no apatite for.

How can they even think that they will be trusted beyond their own borders. Hell, I doubt, that a majority within the borders will also not trust them.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 24 Jul 2014 17:51

Mort Walker wrote: Yes, the pro-Russian Uk separatists are thug Cossacks.

Apart from the one supposed intercept released by the Ukrainean authorities, there is no evidence that there are any Cossacks involved. The demographics of the place also do not suggest any large scale Cossack involvement. The industrial belt of eastern Ukraine has hardcore Russians, not Cossacks, in majority. The Don Cossacks are further east, and the Dnepr Cossacks (the so called Zaporozian Host (Выйсько Запорозьке), or the Cossack Hetmanate) were based around southern and central Ukraine. Going by the ethnic composition, I would not be surprised if the Ukrainean army has a larger percentage of ethnic Cossacks than the rebel forces do. Did the Cossacks become gentlemen when they toed the line of the Kiev government?

The Cossacks being a militia type enforcers and their paki behavior in this whole sordid episode.

This sentence is so wrong. The Cossacks were a border force of horse based communities used to keep the Ottomans and steppe nomads out of the Russian, and Polish heartlands (and the fractious Cossacks were themselves involved on various sides in the conflicts - there were Cossacks allied with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Muscovite dukes (and later tsars), and the Swedes). Freeing Christian slaves from the Ottomans and the keeping the raiding steppe nomads out (slave taking was a main motivation for the steppe nomads' raids) was the major reason for the subsidies the Cossacks received. In fact, the vast majority of your gentlemen Ukraineans owe their freedom to those very same thug Cossacks whom you so heartily despise.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 24 Jul 2014 18:38

Putin on a roll.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Jul 2014 18:39

"Today in the south of the Lugansk region close to the village of Dmytrivka, pro-Russia fighters shot two Su-25 jets from a missile system," the spokesman Vladislav Seleznev said.

"The pilots took evasive action … but the planes were hit," he said.

Reading all this, I am wondering onlee, whether 007 novels are available only in Ulan Bator these days.

Guys/gals: you have to put facts together like 69.
There is a sharp and obvious link between

"2 UkBapZi Su-25s were seen climbing towards MH-17"

and

2 UkBapzi Su-25s were shot down and the pilots are missing

2 days later. Can't u see that? All the celebrations by the "rebels" notwithstanding, I think the UkBapZi Right Sector simply could not allow those 2 pilots to live, knowing what they knew. At minimum they had to "disappear". Now they have been "disappeared" in a manner that strengthens the UkBapZi claim that the "rebels" have effective SAMs in plenty, and know how to use them. See how easily u have been gypped? 2 days back ppl were declaring how the rebels had (a) no access to SAMs, and (b) no one who knew how to use them. Were both Su-25s downed by MANPADs? Or did they sort-of blow up when a MANPAD lock-on signal came on the warning system? I mean, was the missile warning buzzer tied into an RDX detonator timer maybe?

For Ernst Stavro Blofeld and his admirers, these things are child's play. In fact child's play is a lot harder. TRY "taking candy from a baby" and u c what I mean.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 24 Jul 2014 20:52

Breaking news: Ukraine PM Yatsenyuk Resigns as coalition partners pull the rug under his feat.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 24 Jul 2014 21:07

^^ just saw the news. very interesting. is there a smoking gun behind this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/world ... c=rss&_r=0

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Jul 2014 22:17

Kiev Govt has proved that there can be bigger idiots than even the Paki Jarnails.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Jul 2014 01:50

public wants a full rebooting of the authorities,” Mr. Poroshenko said.

Nice way of putt-ing it.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 25 Jul 2014 02:57

vijaykarthik wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460625#

What is it with flight disappearances / crashings? Though this news isn't E Europe / Ukraine relevant, its another shocker. Now Algerian flight that's gone missing from the radar. Boy, are we slipping into a full fledged war?

Wasn't there a plane crash in the north-west part of Taiwan too yesterday or day before?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2014 04:46

UB is spot on! Eliminating the loose threads,aka 2 SU-25s which were involved in the MH flight probably on an assassination attempt on Putin's aircraft.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... h17-russia
MH17 crash: sanctions against Russia are illegal, ambassador claims
Moscow insists documents that show Russians armed the separatists who shot down Malaysia Airlines plane are forged

Rowena Mason, political correspondent
The Guardian, Thursday 24 July 2014 19.47 BST

The west is imposing "illegal, unreasonable and counter-productive" sanctions against Russia based on internet forgeries that do not prove any of its missiles shot down the Malaysian airliner, the Russian ambassador to London has said.[/b]

Shortly before the European Union announced further sanctions against individuals and businesses linked to the Kremlin on Thursday night, Alexander Yakovenko condemned the trade restrictions that have already been imposed and warned that any more "may well trigger a long anticipated endgame of the present global crisis".

The EU agreed at a meeting on Thursday to add 15 people and 18 companies or other organisations to the bloc's sanctions list for undermining Ukraine's territorial integrity, diplomats said. But they failed to reach agreement on economic sanctions and will resume discussions on Friday, they added.

Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, has joined the US and Ukraine in saying there is strong reason to believe the Malaysian airliner was shot down by pro-Putin separatists using a Soviet-era Russian-made Buk missile, killing 298 people.

On Thursday night, the US state department said it had evidence Russia intended to deliver "heavier and more powerful" rocket launchers to separatists in Ukraine.

However, Yakovenko said Russia had never given weapons to the separatists.

"The ample proof of inconsistencies of the initial narrative by Kiev and Washington has been provided by the closed briefing by the American intelligence officials on Tuesday," he told journalists at the Russian embassy in London.

"I took this from British media. Given media reports, there was nothing convincing, not to say compelling, in those materials.

"The case, as is admitted, is built upon photos and messages from social media sites, placed by Ukrainian authorities and since then proved to be forgeries, as ambassador Churkin demonstrated at the UN security council meeting. Naturally, our American partners say that they have no way of certifying the authenticity of those materials."

He added: "What we do is providing humanitarian assistance and receiving refugees from Ukraine in our territory. I don't have to say that people in Russia entertain strong feelings over the atrocities committed today by the Ukrainian forces against civilians, their ruthless use of heavy weapons and air force to shell and bomb [a] peaceful population."

The ambassador said the war in Ukraine had created "murky waters which are a fertile ground for all sorts of incidents".

The separatists are continuing to hold the site of the accident, but the black boxes from the plane and some of the bodies of those who died in the crash have now been released.

Yakovenko's warnings came after Boris Johnson, the mayor of London, suggested sanctions should only be directed at people in the entourage of Putin, rather than Russian business in general. He also warned people not to "lash out" against all Russians.

Johnson previously expressed unease about being asked to play tennis with the wife of a former finance minister of Putin, along with David Cameron, in return for a £160,000 donation. However, he claimed sufficient checks on the donor have now been carried out to satisfy him that the couple are not "buddies" of Putin.

"We have got to target the people who really count in Vladimir Putin's immediate entourage, in his regime, the people who are this cronies," Johnson told LBC 97.3.

"That's sensible. People say this will affect London, [that] it will do damage [but] I don't believe it will, because what people will see is a city that knows the difference between right and wrong. I think it is to the credit of Britain and to London that we are able to do these difficult things.

"I would stress obviously this is not the context for a general lashing out against all Russians, everybody who happens to speak Russian. This is a city that welcomes people from all around the world and there are many Russians here in London who are by no means buddies of Vladimir Putin."

The mayor's defence of the tennis match comes after the Conservatives were put under scrutiny over hundreds of thousands of pounds in donations from Russians, who Labour said were bankrolling their general election campaign.

An analysis by the Guardian shows more than £161,000 has come from donors with links to the Kremlin's business interests in the last five years.

It also emerged that one of Cameron's trade envoys, Charles Hendry, is president of a pro-Russia business lobby group whose advisory council includes an ally of Putin who recently struck an oil deal with Syria's Bashar al-Assad, and a former chief of the arms company that designed Buk missiles.

The UK and some eastern European countries have been pushing for sanctions not just on individuals and businesses linked to Putin's regime but for some wider sectoral restrictions that could hit trade in areas such as energy, defence and finance. The list of individuals who face sanctions announced on Thursday is likely to be published on Friday or Saturday.

Meanwhile the Hussein O'Bomber team is rapidly planning militarising Poland in preparation for military action against Russia from this report.
NATO Poland base may be prepared for blitz against Russia
Published time: July 24, 2014

NATO’s Europe commander advocates stockpiling a base in Poland with enough weapons, ammunition and other supplies to support a rapid deployment of thousands of troops against Russia, British media reported.

General Philip Breedlove’s idea would be presented to members of the alliance at the upcoming NATO summit in Wales in September, according to The Times.

The general told a briefing in Naples this week that NATO needed “pre-positioned supplies, pre-positioned capabilities and a basing area ready to rapidly accept follow-on forces.”

NATO's top commander in Europe General Philip Breedlove (AFP Photo / John Thys)

Several locations for the future stockpile are planned, with the Multinational Corps Northeast, a base in Szczecin near the Polish-German border being the leading contender.

“It would be a 24/7 fully functioning headquarters that forces could quickly fall in on to respond rapidly when needed,” the British newspaper cites a source familiar with the expected proposition as saying.

Breedlove has been advocating a build-up of NATO assets in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, in the wake of the Ukrainian crisis in the secession of Ukraine’s Crimea to Russia. The alliance has already strengthened its presence in the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea and deployed additional military aircraft in Eastern Europe. It said the moves were needed to boost the confidence of eastern NATO members in the alliance’s ability to protect them from Russian aggression.

Polish 6 Airborne Brigade soldiers check their weapons as they participate in training exercises with paratroopers from the U.S. Army's 173rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team at the Land Forces Training Centre in Oleszno near Drawsko Pomorskie, north west Poland May 1, 2014 (Reuters / Kacper Pempel)

The stockpiling of supplies is just a step short of a permanent massive deployment of foreign NATO troops in Poland. The alliance says it is needed for a rapid response to a Russian incursion, although Russian generals would probably view this as a possible preparation for a blitzkrieg attack on Russia.

Moscow considers the build-up of NATO troops in Europe as part of a hostile policy aimed at placing the alliance’s military resources closer to its borders. Russia’s current military doctrine allows the use of all weapons in its possession, including tactical nuclear weapons, in response to a conventional force attack on Russia.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Jul 2014 05:16

Paul wrote:Putin on a roll.

Take a look at 1:22. Billionaire gets chaddi wet, signs agreement like an errant child who has been disciplined and tries to walk away in a daze with Putin's pen and Putin goes, "Give me my pen back".

The western reporter can't help make a snide remark at the end. What he is missing is that none of his leaders have such guts. No wonder O'Bomber is currently looking like that Russian billionaire in the above video.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jul 2014 05:20

Ukraine has also banned the communist party which got 13% of popular votes last round of elections to legislature.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2014 05:41

Putin is da man! He sure has his ghoolies in working order.Not like O'Bumbler. Look at his commitment to the issue.Never takes his eyes off da ball.Wonder why Russia failed so poorly in the World Cup though? It shouldn't have employed a loser like Capello as manager.

Russia starts reinforcing naval fleet in Crimea
AFPBy AFP | AFP – Wed, Jul 23, 2014

A Russian soldier stands on the deck of anti-submarine vessel in the port of Sevastopol, on March 8, 2014
View Photo

Russia announced Wednesday that it had begun expanding and modernising its Black Sea fleet based in Crimea with new ships and submarines, just months after annexing the peninsula from Ukraine.

"Today we have started forming a powerful Black Sea fleet with an absolutely different level of air service, coastal missile and artillery troops and marines," said Alexander Vitko, the Black Sea fleet commander, in a message to servicemen.

"We are preparing bases and crews to serve on new ships and submarines."

Vitko said the modernisation of the fleet "lays the foundation for the future of the fleet, both in the short term and looking far ahead."

Russia's Black Sea fleet had a base at the historic port city of Sevastopol in Crimea under an agreement with Ukraine before Russia annexed the peninsula in March.

President Vladimir Putin said at a meeting with the national security council Tuesday that Russia will bolster its defences to counter the creeping influence of NATO close to its borders.

"It is necessary to implement all of the country's defence measures fully and promptly, including of course in Crimea and Sevastopol, where we have to de facto create military infrastructure from scratch," he said.

Putin attended a naval parade there on May 9 Victory Day this year, when thousands crowded the harbour to watch war ships carry out manoeuvres.

Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said in May that Russia's only warm-water fleet would get new ships and submarines this year.

Russia earlier this month announced plans to develop Sevastopol up to 2030, including building a power station to reduce its dependence on electricity from Ukraine.

It has also announced an ambitious project to build a bridge connecting Crimea to southern Russia.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 25 Jul 2014 06:52

It looks like all the pressure being applied, sanctions, the threat of sanctions, is all targeted against one man, Putin. Senior level individuals around him and companies have been sanctioned with the hope and design that if life for them under sanctions becomes difficult enough, that they will move against Putin and replace him i.e. a coup d' etat with a Yeltsin, ver. 2.0 replacement. Does the return of tension to Europe and a quasi cold war really benefit the American people or the people of the west in general? Who are the beneficiaries of this tension and the return to a quasi cold war? I think the western propaganda effort here is so blatant that all objectivity and more important, credibility, has been lost. If the US lost a major part of its credibility in the false evidence given by Colin Powell to start Gulf War 2, it has lost whatever remained in this ham handed propaganda barrage in Eastern Europe and western propaganda today can only be compared to Soviet propaganda in the Cold War days i.e. everybody knew then it was false and everybody today knows that its false and yet the propaganda machine keeps churning it out.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jul 2014 07:14

losing of credibility is important before US can be taken out altogether. Once US loses credibility completely, the very people backing it now and profiting from it will ditch it in a second. Thus this BRIC bank affair can become a natural host to these parasite cretins, and the US is rightfully deathly afraid of the same. In time to come, the US will struggle and lose further credibility and will make a lot of noise on the world stage wherein it will lose even more face, but that period of struggle and obscene violence will be used to bargain with the BRICs group to get more leverage in their startup.

No wonder then that the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) in basel has welcomed the BRICs bank.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 25 Jul 2014 07:26

matrimc wrote:
vijaykarthik wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460625#

What is it with flight disappearances / crashings? Though this news isn't E Europe / Ukraine relevant, its another shocker. Now Algerian flight that's gone missing from the radar. Boy, are we slipping into a full fledged war?
Wasn't there a plane crash in the north-west part of Taiwan too yesterday or day before?

Yes. I think the total number of deaths in 2014, due to plane deaths alone, will easily surpass 1k. If we count the numbers that died in the Ukraine IL-76, AN-26 etc etc too. Pretty shocking. No one in 2013 could have judged this number so confidently. We have another 5 months left for the year to finish. So how many more?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jul 2014 07:38

CNN/NYT are the Pravda of the good old soviet days.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 25 Jul 2014 09:31

The present Ukraine government is a zombie , they just do what their US masters tell them to do , they have been effectively taken over by US and just working as proxy

IMHO, the Americans are dumber than that. In their zeal to be `the machtpolitiker` of the 21st century they support everyone who opposes Russia. No matter how dumb or stupid or evil they are. Every dangerous act by them, every provocation that they make towards Russia is lauded by the US as the correct policy against evil Putin and Russia.
With so much blind support from the only superpower, the idiots tend to think they can say anything or do anything and get away with it.
Thats exactly what happened in case of Georgia leading to 2008 conflict. Saakashvili thought his military action in South Ossetia will draw a Russian reaction which it did. That it will also draw US into the conflict was something he expected but didnt happen. It was a kind of `betrayal` by the US. Had they not patted his back for all his previous stupidities?!

Now we are being witness to Saakashvili adventure part II. Ukbapzis are provoking Russia with each and every action of theirs. When push comes to shove, Eastern Ukraine will meet the same fate that Abkhazia and South Ossetia did.