Indian Railways Thread

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 10 Jul 2014 17:46

alexis wrote:Unless HSR is going to be constructed on Japanese grant money

The Japanese do not give grant money. Well maybe a token sum. They do give low interest loans denoted in yen. India pays back in yen. Even Delhi Metro is paying back every yen.
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BTW the problem with DFC is not funding or even land acquisition. It is just that business as usual probably means it will finish in 2025-2030. Tenders are being issued just now. Then there is a lengthy qualification, mobilization, start stop construction, contractors who run away, etc. So maybe just 1 line, very incomplete, by 2025.

I fully expect to talk about these lines incomplete in 2031. So see you then....

Personally I think it is fully feasible to construct the entire 2 lines in the next 4 years. PMO needs to change the construction process and focus lazer like on performance.

Instead pride of place in this years report is the RajBhasa efforts of the DFCCIL, for which a special officer was hired who then conducted monthly seminars for all employees and had a big annual hoo-haa on speaking Hindi. In Delhi.... Squandering of energy and effort.
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One can do some simple math to show the effort it will take. Right now a Dedicated mid-speed line dual track is run at about RS 10-20 Crore per km, including land acquisition. If we take the mid number of Rs 15 Crore per km. Assume 1/3 goes to wages. Rs 5 crore per km. Assume cost of labor on average works out to Rs 1 lakh per employee/year. Then 5 crore / 1 lakh per year = 500 man years per km. So 500 men/women working of one year can build 1 km of dual track.

So the ~ 1,500 km western line needs = 500 x 1,500 = 750,000 man years of effort. Assuming some management overheads, down time, etc lets round it up to a solid 1,000,000 man years per line. So to complete it in 4 years one would need 1,000,000/4 = 250,000 workers hammering away simultaneously.

Between them they need ½ million employees. If we don’t see this level of effort and right now we are not even on the ground floor, it is not going to get done in time. Period.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jul 2014 22:14

Any train that leaves TN or KL, has 128% occupancy.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jul 2014 23:05

Singha wrote:what frightens me is so many cycles spent on the usual platitudes and bromides we all know - food, cleanliness, safety, new trains .... all good things but nothing special..they should be operational focus areas anyway everyday.

but in capex terms only this boondogle HSR to vendor finance japanese cos whose HSR designs got stolen by cheen.

we need
- 3 and 4 tracking of the NSEW and quadrilateral trunk routes
- need the two freight corridors completed
- a concrete yearly plan to retire n1000 coaches and scaling up build capacity to m1000 new coaches..the coach and loco plants are run like our OFBs
- a concrete yearly plan to upgrade ballast, bridges and culverts on war footing
- a concrete plan to increase avg speed of goods trains to 80kmph and pax to 110kmph.
- tech tieups to drag our railway factories to 90s level atleast overall.

else its just window dressing on a rotting heap of rubbish with no skeletal improvements.

the much tom tommed Namo focus on infra totally missing.

+1

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Jul 2014 09:59

Don't know if any one else noticed this..
Rail Budget 2014: Project management group to be set up to overcome delays
From what I could make out from the article. The railways did not have a good system to track the new projects. Div. Railway Managers had the responsibility on this as well. What S.Gowda plans to do is to have a separate body focusing purely on new projects. DRMs etc. can focus on the more of day-to-day operational work (P&L of their divisions, operations etc.).

amit · Post by **amit** » 11 Jul 2014 15:11

I suppose this has been posted here before. But what the heck, it's worth posting again.

India Is Building The World's Highest Railway Bridge

Indian engineers are toiling in the Himalayas to build the world's highest railway bridge which is expected to be 35 metres taller than the Eiffel Tower when completed by 2016.
The arch-shaped steel structure is being constructed over the Chenab River to link sections of the spectacular mountainous region of India's northern Jammu and Kashmir state.

The bridge is expected to be 359 metres (1,177 feet) high when completed -- surpassing the world's current tallest railway bridge over the Beipanjiang River in China's Guizhou province, which stands at 275 metres high. {Aha, my dong is bigger that yours... by almost 100 meters; Ha!}

"It is an engineering marvel. We hope to get this bridge ready by December 2016," a senior Indian Railways official told AFP.

Added later: Taller than the Eiffel Tower and that too in a mountainous region. Just think of the amount of tolerance that needs to be built into the design for wind buffeting. It could get to hurricane speeds on bad days, methinks. I'm going to ride that train once this is done just to get the experience on the bridge.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2014 15:49

the height shlong measuring contest is a bit of misnomer on both sides.
they measure it from the water level of the river to the floor of the bridge, but as you can see the pillars are way up on the hill and probably a suspension or arch will cross the river with no pillar at the alleged height.

same is case in the cheen bridge mentioned, clear from this pic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... idge-4.jpg

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Jul 2014 15:55

I think more than infrastructure upgrade to increase average speed of trains, reducing the number of stops for the fast ones should also be done. The average speed going down has a lot to do with too many stops and for too long.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2014 15:57

one area where we can take leaf from cheen book is building up greenfield railway stns by demolishing the old.
this is orthogal to issues of trains, signals, speeds...our current stations are all more than a century old, crumbling and 5th world std.
we simply need new stations on the graveyards of the old.

while rolling stock/speed/lines might take a decade or two to clean up, stations can be demolished and rebuilt in say 5 yrs if work is cleared and done on time like they build ITvity parks - 3 shifts, latest machinery and tools, close monitoring, pvt contractors like JMC, gammon, L&T, pallonji etc.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1640480
all of these were built to service HSR trains exclusively . a limited number of old CBD stations can service the low tier of HSR trains.
vast waiting hall of hangzhou east
http://img1.gtimg.com/6/690/69030/69030 ... 00_696.jpg
with HSR being priced high, these were built to the plan and standards of airports.

maybe some intelligent design could be done to retain the external facade of historical relics like CST/churchgate in mumbai or howrah or madras central but mostly they have nothing of note like NDLS or SBC(blr) and can be torn down lock , stock and barrel down to their shit and rat encrusted bedrock level!!

Cheen has built them on outskirts on vast areas, we might need to go vertical and have platforms at 2 levels, nothing wrong in that.

i drove by blr central last weekend and it was the same unhealthy mess. one could not make out the entrance and exit gates from station premises as a bunch of unruly autos had covered them like flies on a rats behind. not a single police in sight to whack them with a danda.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 11 Jul 2014 16:42

There was a plan to do that starting with NDLS. There were even designs on SSC. But Moan Moan Singh sat on it for 10 yrs. Perhaps didn't get permission from Madam. Similar is the case with greenfield expressways.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2014 22:03

the only thing I recall from MMS days is a new executive lounge in one corner of the NDLS. like a whiff of AXE spray on a rats bottom I guess.

BLR was and remains bottom of the pile kind of stuff.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Jul 2014 22:48

Actually the preliminary design for NDLS only came out 2 weeks ago. Cost is Rs 5,000 crore. Which I think is a bit light.
No mention in budget so another project bites the dust.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/railways-look ... ml#DPU54ON

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2014 06:07

one should consider tasks that are doables. not wild imaginations given our requirements and infrastructure capabilities.. we have to look at strengthening existing system, and please pay attention to what Singha listed out. those are essential items that needs public canvasing, and network effects to percolate babooze minds.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jul 2014 06:37

Saikollah, given up already have we... ...so a realistic design and budget is presented and you want to go back to the rats nests...

Such be the condition of desh.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 12 Jul 2014 09:28

We did build a few good stations 20 yrs ago( By CIDCO not IR).

Vashi Stn

CBD Belapur

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2014 12:39

history has shown that despite uh lack of civic sense, if a shiny new infra is built and policed properly, people will generally lose their bad habits and behave within the premises. from the kolkata metro to the delhi metro, the same unruly gentry will line up and not litter the place or put paan stains on the walls.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Jul 2014 12:41

not only infra, its the same with every thing, traffic signal etc....the moment they see police their behavior changes

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Jul 2014 17:42

@Theo

That picture is a few years old and was an artist's impression (not a design) of what a revamped NDLS would look like. But UPA did not proceed with it. The 5000 crores fig is also old.

The new railway budget talks of upgraded stations. Now what that means remains to be seen.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2014 17:53

one of things i notice in china pics is that people do not travel with the elephantine amounts of luggage that are common india , to the extent where the whole quality of life onboard the train suffers due to luggage stacked all over the place.
I think its time to impose a heavy penalty on more than 1 luggage per person.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 12 Jul 2014 18:13

--self deleted--

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 12 Jul 2014 18:17

Singha wrote:one of things i notice in china pics is that people do not travel with the elephantine amounts of luggage that are common india , to the extent where the whole quality of life onboard the train suffers due to luggage stacked all over the place.
I think its time to impose a heavy penalty on more than 1 luggage per person.

I was travelling in a train some years back from Delhi to Goa. A gujju family hopped on enroute with so much luggage, I had to ask them if they were shifting house.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2014 19:28

having 72 people crammed into a coach inevitably leads to this problem, even if all carry moderate amt of luggage. there is simply no room for all that luggage.

the middle berth must be abolished.

the side berths must be abolished and luggage rack kept overhead for the 4 people keep their extra luggage.

this will make the corridor wider and the beds longer and more comfortable

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Jul 2014 19:33

Singha wrote:The full list of new trains:
Jansadharan Trains
i) Ahmedabad-Darbhanga Jansadharan Express via Surat
Ii Jaynagar-Mumbai Jansadharan Express
ii) Mumbai-Gorakhpur Jansadharan Express
iv) Saharasa-Anand Vihar Jansadharan Express via Motihari
v) Saharasa-Amritsar Jansadharan Express
Premium Trains
i) Mumbai Central-New Delhi Premium AC Express
ii) Shalimar-Chennai Premium AC Express
iii) Secunderabad- Hazrat Nizamuddin Premium AC Express
iv) Jaipur-Madurai Premium Express
v) Kamakhya-Bengaluru Premium Express
AC Express Trains
i) Vijayawada-NewDelhi AP Express(Daily)
ii) Lokmanya Tilak(T)-Lucknow(Weekly)
iii) Nagpur-Pune(Weekly)
iv) Nagpur-Amritsar(Weekly)
v) Naharlagun-New Delhi(Weekly)
vi) Nizamuddin-Pune(Weekly)
Express Trains
i) Ahmedabad-Patna Express(Weekly)via Varanasi
ii) Ahmedabad Chennai Express(Biweekly)via Vasai Road
iii) Bengaluru -Mangalore Express(Daily)
iv) Bengaluru -Shimoga Express(Biweekly)
v) Bandra(T)-Jaipur Express(Weekly)Via Nagda,Kota
vi) Bidar-Mumbai Express(Weekly)
vii) Chhapra-Lucknow Express (Tri weekly)via Ballia, Ghazipur, Varanasi
viii) Ferozpur-Chandigarh Express(6 days a week)
ix) Guwahati-Naharlagun Intercity Express(Daily)
x) Guwahati-Murkongselek Intercity Express(Daily)
xi) Gorakhpur-Anand Vihar Express(Weekly)
xii) Hapa-Bilaspur Express(Weekly)via Nagpur
xiii) Hazur Saheb Nanded-Bikaner Express(Weekly)
xiv) Indore-Jammu Tawi Express(Weekly)
xv) Kamakhya-Katra Express(Weekly)via Darbhanga
xvi) Kanpur-Jammu Tawi Express(Biweekly)
xvii) Lokmanya Tilak(T)-Azamgarh Express(Weekly)
xviii) Mumbai_Kazipeth Express(Weekly)via Balharshah
xix) Mumbai-Palitana Express(Weekly)
xx) New Delhi Bhatinda Shatabdi Express(Biweekly)
xxi) New Delhi-Varanasi Express(Daily)
xxii) Paradeep-Howrah Express(Weekly)
xxiii) Paradeep-Visakhapatnam Express(Weekly)
xxiv) Rajkot-Rewa Express(Weekly)
xxv) Ramnagar-Agra Express(Weekly)
xxvi) Tatanagar Baiyyappanahali (Bengaluru) Express(Weekly)
xxvii) Visakhapatnam-Chennai Express(Weekly)
Passenger Trains
i) Bikaner-Rewari Passenger(Daily)
ii) Dharwad-Dandeli Passenger(Daily)via Alnavar
iii) Gorakhpur-Nautanwa Passenger(Daily)
iv) Guwahati-Mendipathar Passenger(Daily)
v) Hatia-Rourkela Passenger
vi) Byndoor-Kasaragod Passenger(Daily)
vii) Rangapara North-Rangiya Passenger(Daily)
viii) Yesvantpur-Tumkur Passenger(Daily)
MEMU services
i) Bengaluru -Ramanagaram 6 days a week(3Pairs)
ii) Palwal-Delhi-Aligarh
DEMU services
i) Bengaluru -Neelmangala (Daily)
ii) Chhapra-Manduadih (6days a week)via Ballia
iii) Baramula-Banihal (Daily)
iv) Sambalpur-Rourkela (6 days a week)
v) Yesvantpur Hosur (6 days a week)
Extension of run of existing trains
i) 22409/22410 Anand Vihar Sasaram Garib Rath Express to Gaya
ii) 12455/12456 Delhi Sarai Rohilla Sriganganagar Express to Bikaner
iii) 15231/15232 Gondia Muzaffarpur Express to Barauni
iv) 12001/12002 New Delhi Bhopal Shatabdi Express to Habibganj
v) 54602 Ludhiana-Hissar Passenger to Sadulpur
vi) 55007/55008 Sonpur-Kaptanganj Passenger to Gorakhpur
vii) 55072/55073 Gorakhpur-Thawe Passenger to Siwan
viii) 63237/63238Buxar-Mughalsarai MEMU to Varanasi
ix) 63208/63211 Jhajha-Patna MEMU to Jasidih
x) 64221/64222 Lucknow Hardoi MEMU to Shahjahanpur
xi) 68002/68007 Howrah-Belda MEMU to Jaleswar

vi) Byndoor-Kasaragod Passenger(Daily)

This train has to run twice daily morning and evening.
This corridor will see large growth in the next 10 years. It also need a fright corridor for commodities.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2014 04:17

theo, new designs are welcome, but it has to purely ops based.. there is no point only in show off while the trains keeps stinking with poor facilities and setup.

also, I agree that if we graduate public to use good facilities, they will automatically start using it and take responsibilities.. but for that, we don't need to burn up in "for your eyes only" infra. think functional in all aspects of quality of service.

there is no point an infra dev plan in pockets like in Mumbai or dilli. It has to be comprehensive service oriented integrated setup for the whole nation. why? only Mumbai walas are advanced citizens or what? we all have to be made equal to receive services.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 13 Jul 2014 05:09

krishnan wrote:not only infra, its the same with every thing, traffic signal etc....the moment they see police their behavior changes

heh..saar, it is not the threat of fines etc (that does play a role),

people are inherently monkey see monkey do. even in massa, the moment one guy jumps the shoulder to beat the blocked traffic on right lane to take exit, you would see some other cars following shortly.

people try to maintain a clean area as clean, until they see one stain, and then its free for all. even people who restrained themselves earlier, will let go. just human nature.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 13 Jul 2014 11:01

From Twitter: Potholes on Railway Tracks!

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 13 Jul 2014 11:06

SanjayC wrote:From Twitter: Potholes on Railway Tracks!

Looks like wheel slip in the engine for too long, probably due to heavy overloading as well as poor track quality.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 13 Jul 2014 12:59

Gus wrote:
krishnan wrote:not only infra, its the same with every thing, traffic signal etc....the moment they see police their behavior changes
heh..saar, it is not the threat of fines etc (that does play a role),

people are inherently monkey see monkey do. even in massa, the moment one guy jumps the shoulder to beat the blocked traffic on right lane to take exit, you would see some other cars following shortly.

people try to maintain a clean area as clean, until they see one stain, and then its free for all. even people who restrained themselves earlier, will let go. just human nature.

Interestingly, a study here in the US showed that people are more likely to "follow-the-leader" and break the law, if the first person is well dressed or looks like a person of authority. For instance, if a person dressed like a bum were to illegally cross the street against a red light, not many people would follow him. If the person was better dressed, like an ordinary joe, then more people followed him. However, if the person was dressed in a full suit, a majority of the people near him happily broke the law and crossed illegally.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2014 15:16

note the ancient sal wood sleepers. wonder where that is?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 13 Jul 2014 16:23

Apparently not India

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Jul 2014 19:30

I suspect USA or NA somewhere. The wheel friction probably melted the steel and it must have been glowing red hot and throwing sparks! Miracle the wood did not catch fire. If they had left it there the Wheel would have welded to the rail.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2014 20:55

they use wood sleepers in NA?

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 13 Jul 2014 21:09

Northern QLD, Australia. http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/j ... a_burnout/

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Jul 2014 07:05

shravan wrote:Northern QLD, Australia. http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/j ... a_burnout/

Wood is pretty cheap in US, and many railroads still have them.

saip · Post by **saip** » 14 Jul 2014 07:40

What exactly is a Jansadharan Express?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2014 19:03

jansadharan = ordinary in hindi

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 15 Jul 2014 11:13

Jana = People
Sadharan = Common, regular, general, Not special

The purpose is to provide express train at regular cost.

E.g., Jana Shatabdi Express trains are affordable variety for common population compared to Shatabdi Express Trains

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Jul 2014 19:27

Singha wrote:they use wood sleepers in NA?

Phasing them out slowly to concrete. They are called "ties" and the old ones are sold to public for landscaping etc.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 17 Jul 2014 16:09

9-month food stock for N-E trains to wi-fi on all: Railways get 24 PMO ideas

Going beyond his government’s rail budget, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has suggested 24 steps for an action plan to transform the railways.

The measures communicated by the PMO include one that asks the ministries of food and railways to chalk out the total nine-month food requirement of the Northeast states and figure out a way to transport the entire stock in one go. Wi-fi connectivity on all passenger trains in three months, a scrap-free railways by June 30, 2015 are the other measures suggested.

The railways has been asked to identify any one area of operation where world-class technology can be deployed and, on its success, can be replicated elsewhere.

The ideas have been compiled and circulated among top officers of the ministry following a letter from the Cabinet Secretariat on July 11.

For each action point, there is to be regular stock-taking, as per documents accessed by The Indian Express. The railway board has segregated the action points according to the directorates concerned. It has to send a feedback by the end of this week.

According to a railway board member, the ministry needs to chalk out the action plan for each point and as far as funds is concerned it may go for re-appropriation of budget allocation to start some of the works mentioned.

The list of action points is a mix of macro- and micro-level objectives. For instance, the railways has been asked to consider goods train wagons as a possible medium for outdoor advertisement. Light wagons are to be manufactured for commodities like salt. Land is to be identified for five-star hotels, malls and food courts.

What has come across in all action points is Modi’s concept of getting departments and ministries to work in tandem with common objectives rather than in silos. The urban development ministry and railways have been asked to figure out ways to connect all major airports with metro rail. Ministries of transport and highways, water resources and railways are to work to create linear zones of waterways, roadways and railways.

One of the action points is to connect all underdeveloped areas with developed areas. Leveraging the UPA’s flagship MGNREGA, the PMO wants the scheme to be linked with laying of tracks and other works in railways. Safety of operations and connectivity in hilly states also find mention in the 24 points.

Many of the remaining action points, like a “milk-vision”, agri-rail network, use of CCTVs to monitor cleanliness, a Diamond Quadrilateral of high-speed trains had been communicated in earlier meetings and were included in this year’s rail budget.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 18 Jul 2014 02:55

Victor wrote:
Singha wrote:they use wood sleepers in NA?
Phasing them out slowly to concrete. They are called "ties" and the old ones are sold to public for landscaping etc.

In Z Gallerie in Palo Alto or Berkeley, I had seen a designer dining table made purely from old wooden ties from Indian railway tracks being sold for a steep price. Couldn't stomach eating on a table marinated in that much pakistaniyat

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Jul 2014 03:30

Can someone please elaborate on the need for the following requirement by PMO for IR:

The measures communicated by the PMO include one that asks the ministries of food and railways to chalk out the total nine-month food requirement of the Northeast states and figure out a way to transport the entire stock in one go.

Is this to prepare for war or bad weather or civil unrest in North East?