The Red Menace

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 27 Apr 2011 17:50

somnath wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:How dare the Government Tribals into the Police force?? In false case of Police custodian death in SC, 2 Policemen died in a premedidated Ambush by Naxals why in the process of producing the so called dead person.

THe Naxals seem to have a lot of Money for well oiled lawyers in the SUpreme Court and they do not have to bother about any Rule or Law. Law enforcing agencies are really fighting this war with one hand tied behind thier back
SC isnt commenting on tribals in the police, it is referring to vigilante militias like Salwa Judum...

these guys are poorly paid, poorly trained, armed with lethal weapons and operate under grey provisions of law - a deadly cocktail...Setting up such militias are a copout action of a state unable to setup adequate capacities to tackle insurgency...Unfortunately, a deadly copout at that...

SC is talking about the recruitment of Special Police Officers and not Salwa Judum . The SPOs recruitment was done legally using Center provided funds.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Apr 2011 18:06

milindc wrote:SC is talking about the recruitment of Special Police Officers and not Salwa Judum . The SPOs recruitment was done legally using Center provided funds.

Milind-ji, in C'garh the lines between SPO, Salwa Judum, Koya commandos are blurred, extremely blurred in fact...Koya commandos for example are supposed to consist of tribals who have been at the receiving end of Maoist violence...Many of them were targets of the Maoists in Salwa Judum camps! Many armed salwa judum chaps have been made SPOs to afford them somewhat better pay...

C'garh govt has a capacity problem, and it has a credibility problem along with it..the former hobbles it in its military/seccurity response, and the latter hobbles it in its political response...

Again SC should look into murder charges against those who file false cases against cops killing people who are alive and cordinated Naxal attacks happen when due process in being followed when trying to produce them before the Supreme Court.

Supreme Court should also probe cases on How Maoists killed 75 CRPF, detailing Beheadings etc, which sections of law they violated, who gave them arms and training etc...

SC is not an investigating agency...These are precisely the job of a professional police outfit, something that the C'garh govt has been extremely recalcitrant or incapable of setting up...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Apr 2011 19:02

Somnath wrote

C'garh govt has a credibility problem along with it..the former hobbles it in its military/seccurity response, and the latter hobbles it in its political response...

I see any the ideological problem, since they are not from Kosher/ uber Secular INC/LEFT they will always have credibility problem with the Media, International Intstutions and Foreign Governments.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Apr 2011 21:24

C'garh govt has a capacity problem, and it has a credibility problem along with it

Kindly do indicate as to what is this credibility problem which other states dont have in India?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 08:13

sum wrote:Kindly do indicate as to what is this credibility problem which other states dont have in India?

The c'garh govt has gotten itself in a situation where it is perceived to be trying to win an insurgency on the cheap..By getting one group of tribals fight another, by setting up quasi-public vigilante armies like salwa judum...This augurs very badly for the political credibility of the state...the state needs to put out a narrative on what it wants to do to combat insurgency, and back it up with action on the ground..That builds credibility for the political process and military deterrrnce..

C'garh govt has neither...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 Apr 2011 09:28

Well, that's interesting.

Apparently, if the Chattisgarh government, starved of resources, empowers the citizenry to defend their homes and families against missionary-sponsored Maoist murderers... that corresponds to a "cop out" and a "lack of credibility"!

Meanwhile, when the Congress Government in Delhi totally abdicates responsibility for maintaining security in J&K, choosing instead to prohibit the Indian flag from being raised in Indian territory on Republic Day... that's not a cop-out at all! No credibility issues there!

Evidently the Elite Iskool cur-riculum has replaced analytical reasoning with an emphasis on bald-faced hypocrisy. So it is indeed possible teach Canis pseudo-secularis new tricks... or at any rate, pay him to repeat the same one again and again...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Apr 2011 10:13

Rudradev wrote:Evidently the Elite Iskool cur-riculum has replaced analytical reasoning with an emphasis on bald-faced hypocrisy. So it is indeed possible teach Canis pseudo-secularis new tricks... or at any rate, pay him to repeat the same one again and again...

Best not to blame Elite Iskool for the inadequacies of some of its alumni !! Not all students may be at the same level of 'eliteness' in reasoning ability as the Iskool might like.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 10:29

I guess its beyond "non elite" comprehensions (whatever that means!) to suddenly ascribe "lack of resources" to the C'garh govt's ham-handed efforts at countering Maoists...When a simple glance through the state govt's budget would have shown that paucity of resources is hardly an excuse for a govt that runs a 30k crore budget (funded partially by a >5k crore grant from the Centre)..As a comparison, C'garh's non-interest expenditure budget is comparable on a per-capita basis to Maharashtra..

But of course, data is irrelevant to rhetoric! Or maybe only in "non elite" (or maybe "pretentiously elitist", but really "non-elite") circles!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 Apr 2011 12:00

Other than comprehension of the "Queen's English", it appears that Elite Iskooling also confers a monopoly on misrepresenting the data!

Here are some data that are actually relevant to the question at hand... considerably more relevant than some hand-waving blather about Union grants to Chhatisgarh's budget.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... police.htm

As you can see, Chhatisgarh's total police expenditure for 2008 was 468 crores. This, remember, is for a state gripped by an insurgency which our Economist PM has called the greatest threat to India's internal security!

Per capita that is barely one-fifth of the J&K police budget (which comes largely from Central Govt. grants... out of YOUR pockets... and was still not enough to allow the Indian flag to be raised at Lal Chowk on Republic Day!)

It is only 60% of the per-capita police expenditure of Haryana... a state with no significant law-and-order issues by comparison.

Now it's not as if Chhatisgarh is alone in employing these counterinsurgency techniques. Assam, which has 130% the per-capita police expenditure of Chhatisgarh, used SULFA (Surrendered ULFA) militants as a counterinsurgency tool routinely.

Even J&K, whose vast police expenditures are funded by YOU, uses ikhwans and VDCs to combat terrorism.

But of course, these are states with pro-Congress governments, so how can we say anything bad about them? It is only the opposition-ruled Chhatisgarh which represents a "cop-out" and "lacks credibility" for employing the communal and "vigilante" Salwa Judum!

There you have it... the double-standards of the RANDE in full view. Breathtaking, aren't they?

That is not what we non-elites are supposed to pay attention to, however. No, we are required to swallow (I mean, "comprehend") some specious garbage about how the total "non-interest expenditure budget" of Chhatisgarh is "comparable on a per-capita basis to that of Maharashtra!"

That Chhatisgarh's overall development, industrialization, commercialization, infrastructure etc. are in no way comparable to that of Maharashtra... why, just sweep those inconvenient baselines under an Elite Iskool carpet of motivated fabrication!

It should be quite evident by now that the Rahul Gandhi-Dale Carnegie school of propaganda instructs its purveyors in the use of specious data to construct strawman arguments (couched in the Queen's English.) The propaganda point is then "proven" by knocking down said strawman arguments (probably with the Queen's Purse.)

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 12:40

Amazing...Besides having a comprehension problem of English and data, seems that a "non elite education" also imparts ignorance of basic lessons in civics (taught from Class III!)...

1. So the fact that C'garh govt spends so little on the police is not a function of its incompetence/inability/unwillingness o augment capacities, but a perfidy of Leftists/Centre/missionaries!

2. The fact that Assam, a state with the around the same ballpark level of tax revenues as C'garh, higher debt burden and a far worse state of the fisc decides to spend more on policing is not a problem of the C'garh govt, but someone else!

3. The fact that AP, with a police-to-population ratio lower than C'garh, and a per-capita expdt on police substantially lower than C'garh, does so much better with its anti-inurgency campaign isnt a question of quality of execution, but of differential perfidies!

4. Of course, the fact that a richer (and more vastly more indebted) state like Mah has similar per-capita budgetary expdt is symptomatic of the fiscal space available to C'garh is of course too involved a variable to be of comprehension to "non-elite schooled" people...

Great, in a nutshell, policy decisions on outlays and execution policies are taken by the the state govt, but the consequences of the outcomes are attibuted to someone else! Great level of comprehension of public policy - maybe only "non elite schools" impart such gems...

And yes, one sweeping generalisation taking in VDCs, SOGs, SULFA under one blanket, when they individually are different cases - showing great comprehension of India's story of anti-insurgency movements...As stated earlier, axiliary forces like SOG and VDCs have been effective in J&K/Punjab...But Salwa Judum is a different animal altogether, there is no comparison of the two...Of course, anyone not agreeing with a specific viewpoint, howsoever untenable/tenable has to be a #$%#@@ or another, isnt it?

But of course, this nonsense about "elite and non-elite" - the ability to converse civilly is a characteristic typically imparted before one enters school...that of course, is at a premium, for some people!

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Apr 2011 13:47

somnath wrote:
milindc wrote:SC is talking about the recruitment of Special Police Officers and not Salwa Judum . The SPOs recruitment was done legally using Center provided funds.
Milind-ji, in C'garh the lines between SPO, Salwa Judum, Koya commandos are blurred, extremely blurred in fact...Koya commandos for example are supposed to consist of tribals who have been at the receiving end of Maoist violence...Many of them were targets of the Maoists in Salwa Judum camps! Many armed salwa judum chaps have been made SPOs to afford them somewhat better pay...

somnath,

The article specifically mentions SPOs and nothing about Salwa Judum, and you know it. You still resort to your usual misrepresentation of facts, and start arguing about Salwa Judum.

SC doesn't refer/mention about Salwa Judum. It is just pondering about recruitment of tribals as SPOs and Chhattisgarh govt responded saying that it was done per the legal norms. This was confirmed by SG Subramamiam.
Also Chhattisgarh told the court

The Raman Singh government had clarified that SPOs, whose salary budget is borne mainly by the central government (80%), were not peculiar to Chhattisgarh. If there were 6,500 SPOs in Chhattisgarh, their number in Jharkhand was 6,400, Bihar 6,353, Orissa 4,480, Andhra Pradesh 2,130 and Maharashtra 1,500.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Apr 2011 13:58

somnath wrote: 3. The fact that AP, with a police-to-population ratio lower than C'garh, and a per-capita expdt on police substantially lower than C'garh, does so much better with its anti-inurgency campaign isnt a question of quality of execution, but of differential perfidies!

Yes, please compare the 40+ years of AP battle with Naxals and Maoists with Chhattisgarh. Not saying that Chhattisgarh should take another 40+ years, but shows the shallowness of your comparison.

And yes, one sweeping generalisation taking in VDCs, SOGs, SULFA under one blanket, when they individually are different cases - showing great comprehension of India's story of anti-insurgency movements...As stated earlier, axiliary forces like SOG and VDCs have been effective in J&K/Punjab...But Salwa Judum is a different animal altogether, there is no comparison of the two...Of course, anyone not agreeing with a specific viewpoint, howsoever untenable/tenable has to be a #$%#@@ or another, isnt it?

LOL, What about your generalization comparing 6500 SPOs recruited per legal provisions with Salwa Judum.
The whole article was about SC questioning the reason for tribal recruitment as SPOs, and you brought in Salwa Judum.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Apr 2011 14:20

The Maoist violence in Bengal and other places must be seen in light of the overall history and behavior of various players including news such as the one below.

kumarn wrote:Purulia Exposé: India's best kept secret

It is entirely possible that even Indian political parties use Maoists as instruments of convenience for political purposes.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 14:23

milindc wrote:SC doesn't refer/mention about Salwa Judum. It is just pondering about recruitment of tribals as SPOs and Chhattisgarh govt responded saying that it was done per the legal norms. This was confirmed by SG Subramamiam

Not quite right...
One, the primary case that the SC is hearing a petition against the existance of Salwa Judum..

Two, the remarks made in that report was in the context of an FIR filed by Swami Agnivesh about him being assulted by Salwa Judum AND SPOs when he was in C'garh...

Here is a more "complete" report of the proceedings..
http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?o ... &Itemid=66

the division of boundaries between a legal auxiliary force and a vigilante group has been blurred for many years in C'garh now - which is the problem, strategically and militarily..A couple of years back, a Planning Commission report said the same thing while analysing the problem in great detail..

milindc wrote:Yes, please compare the 40+ years of AP battle with Naxals and Maoists with Chhattisgarh

the current phase of naxalism is a completely different animal from the telengana/tebhaga movement of the '50s/'60s..the point is simple..State govts take policy decisions on funding outlays, on security architectures..And they will be held responsible for the outcomes thereof..No point blaming INC/missionaries/leftists et al for what is primarily a state responsibility...Especially if the state govt has fiscal space to carry out capacity building, but has been demonstrably found lacking in effort or imagination!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Apr 2011 14:43

There are no lack of cases where Central Govt has hindered the state from taking steps to carry out its tasks correctly. One of many examples is denial to Gujarat Govt to have its own local MOCOCA like provisions while allowing it for Maharashtra.

Further there is no lack of Central govt supporting local trouble mongers to attack states with opposition govt in power -- Purulia Arms drop, Bhinderwale etc.

Thirdly there is a increasing tendency by the current Govt to boldly abdicate its responsibilities, however the fact remains that abdication of responsibilities by A regime in power does not define the state-center dynamics. In principle attacks on India's soverigne status lead to a situation where the Central Govt should work with the state govts to solve it.

Currently the central govts have abdicated (to say the least) there responsibilities -- if not outright collusion of elements of political parties having a stake in central power with local anti-national elements where they are in opposition.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 18:48

Of course, the fact that C'garh (along with many other states) fails to utilise Central grants for modernisation also is a Christian/Leftist conspiracy, and not the incompetence of the state govt!
http://www.zeenews.com/news692992.html

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Apr 2011 19:27

Why is it a crime for C'garh gov to try and do it cheaply? Isn't economic efficiency and maximizing returns with minimum investments a supreme value?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Apr 2011 19:49

somnath wrote:Of course, the fact that C'garh (along with many other states) fails to utilise Central grants for modernisation also is a Christian/Leftist conspiracy, and not the incompetence of the state govt!
http://www.zeenews.com/news692992.html

Boss no GOvt can Mordernise a Society in 7 years after 50 years of absolute misrule and then being sabotaged by Maoists repeadtely attcking Schools and Hospitals during that time.

Given the short time Raman Singh has done an excellant job.

Compare with social indicators in Vidarbha and Excellant Goverence now going on in A.P after taking over from C Naidu's 10 years, Raman Singh is doing an excellant job.

Also, dont you think the Central Government has also neglected this State?

Somnath, I dont think you will ever see beyond the Ideological divide.

Chhattisgarh's GDP growth highest in 2009-10

Human Development indicators in Chhattisgarh

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 19:58

Aditya_V wrote:Boss no GOvt can Mordernise a Society in 7 years after 50 years of absolute misrule and then being sabotaged by Maoists repeadtely attcking Schools and Hospitals during that time.

Aditya-ji, you dont seem to have followed the whole chain of thought, or the link I posted...

The question here isnt about C'garh's overall development record, which has many bright spots - including a first class PDS, perhaps the best in India...BTW, being a new state has its advantages - you start virtually with a clean slate, especially on debt...

Anyway, the question here is about C'garh's security policies on countering Maoist terror...Its policy choices, both on funding outlays as well as on specific strategies, have been lacking in imagination and reeking of incompetence...It has the fiscal space, it has available Central budgetary support -but its security policy bouquet has revolved around salwa judum..The outcomes therefore are what they are...No point in blaming uncle, aunty, Congress, Christian and universe for what is first and foremost a policy problem!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Apr 2011 20:05

somnath wrote:Anyway, the question here is about C'garh's security policies on countering Maoist terror...Its policy choices, both on funding outlays as well as on specific strategies, have been lacking in imagination and reeking of incompetence...The outcomes therefore are what they are...No point in blaming uncle, aunty, Congress, Christian and universe for what is first and foremost a policy problem!

But isn't this a Central Government failure also?

And why be soft towards people who provide support to Maoists.

The truth is many of these Maoists hit a largely peaceful population like a Tsunami, the state is recovering and you aldready see Well funded Maoist Sympathiser's using every trick in the book including filing false cases in Supreme Court with fat cat lawyers.

THe Maoist SYmpathiser's - many of whom are in NGO, Businessmen and Media barons who travel in first international travel will not spend a pie to file similair cases against Maoists.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 28 Apr 2011 20:18

Aditya_V wrote:But isn't this a Central Government failure also?

Aditya-ji, in India, law&order is a state issue...And it isnt just a cliched legalese, it is a practical imperative...Look at any successful anti-insurgency campaign - Punjab, WB (naxal ver 1), AP - the primary fight has been fought by the state police force..Centre can support, with funds, with army if required, intel, paramils etc...But the heavy lifting has to be done by the state...

C'garh has no apparent funding issue...Its fisc is healthy, and it is a mineral rich state that can extract a lot more out of royalties...As far as Central grants are concerned, there doesnt seem to be any "discrmination", given that the state is not utlising even the amounts allocated! Now if the state govt still lags behind in recruitment of policemen (vacancies are in the 15-20% range), adequate funding, or utilisation of grants, whose fault is it? Instead, rely on cheap vigilante groups to win the war, in the process not even winning the battles propery..

the same goes for prosecution - it is the job of a professional police force to prosecute...If that force does a shoddy job of investigation and prosecution, why blame, again, missionaries, EU, US and everyone else?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Apr 2011 20:25

Somnath-. Drop the Ji, we will only go in circles lets just agree to diasgree. Why blame others, thats bullshit, nobody has the right to support Naxals and they dont have the right to interfere in the normal judical process.

Its like telling the Mumbai victims and Mahrastra govt why blame Pakistan and 26/11, after all if you had made south Mumbai a green zone and trained your cops the terrorists would not have been sucessful. why blame Pakistan, if we had proper evidence we could have convicted Hafeez Sayeed no. They have every right to motivate, fund, train, provide arms to them? lahori logic no.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 28 Apr 2011 23:48

Anatomy of a straw man argument! Please take careful note here, because it is the argumentative style of choice for Elite Iskooled incompetents with deep-seated agendas and intellectual pretensions.

Definition:

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

Pirie, Madsen (2007). How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic. UK: Continuum International Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-8264-9894-6.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

Let us see how this applies to all the Elite Iskooled "comprehensive" and "data-based" arguments offered in this post:

1. So the fact that C'garh govt spends so little on the police is not a function of its incompetence/inability/unwillingness o augment capacities, but a perfidy of Leftists/Centre/missionaries!

Beginning the argument with "So the fact that..." is a dead giveaway of how the Elite Iskooled poster intends to proceed. This becomes readily apparent when "so the fact that" is followed up with a statement that nobody has made at any time previously in the discussion.

This clearly shows that the Elite Iskooled poster is trying to set up a strawman argument, against an assertion that was never made. By putting words in the mouths of others, he can pretend to be refuting the arguments of others, while covering up his failure to answer the actual arguments that others have made!

Now for a deeper look at the sentence construction used to support this sort of specious argumentation.

The first thing to note carefully, is the way in which the sentence is phrased: according to the Elite Iskooled poster, there can be only two and exactly two reasons why the Chhatisgarh government spends so little on the police: either
(a) incompetence/inability/unwillingness to augment capacities or
(b) perfidy of Leftists/Centre/Missionaries.

This completely ignores the several other constraints which might prevent the Chhatisgarh government from spending more money on police. Among them: being one of the least developed states in the Indian union, and the need to allocate more funds towards economic and social development. (Note that when MMS does the same thing while making concessions to Pakistan, this is hailed as the "highest wisdom"!)

The second thing to note is how the poster tries to undermine the idea of perfidy by Leftists/Centre/Missionaries, by ascribing it specifically to "Chhatisgarh government's spending inadequate amounts on police augmentation."

An attempt is made to associate something real (perfidy of Leftists/Centre/Missionaries) with something else that it has no direct bearing on (Chhatisgarh's spending decisions). This association is supposed to make the very idea of Leftist/Missionary/Maino perfidy seem ridiculous... but pay attention and you will see who it is that's actually making the association... the Elite Iskooled poster himself, and no one else!

This is a strawman-by-association. I connect a true statement to another statement that appears absurdly disconnected (Leftist/Missionary perfidy to Chhatisgarh budget.) I couch that connection as if I am replying to an argument being made by someone else ("so the fact that..."), when I am in fact the originator of the connection. And then I hold up a connection which I made myself, to ridicule!

The intent of the Elite Iskooled poster here, is to insinuate that because Leftists/Centre/Missionaries did not affect the Chhatisgarh government's spending decisions... therefore Leftists/Centre/Missionaries must have nothing to do with the Maoist problem at all.

And we all know how true that is.

Carrying on:

"The fact that Assam, a state with the around the same ballpark level of tax revenues as C'garh, higher debt burden and a far worse state of the fisc decides to spend more on policing is not a problem of the C'garh govt, but someone else! "

Again, this is a strawman.

Nobody has said that the choice of Assam to spend more money on police than Chhatisgarh, is the "fault" of "someone else." In fact, nobody has said that it is anyone's "fault" at all. Ideally, states make their own decisions on the best way to utilize the funds available to them, under a wide range of circumstances and constraints that apply in each case.

The context in which Assam was mentioned in my post, was in the employment of SULFA against ULFA; what bearing does this supposed “rebuttal” have on that? None at all!

Secondly, note the gratuitous sprinkling of Elite-Iskool puffery which has no relevance to the argument at all, in a rather pathetic attempt to dignify nonsense with the appearance of "expertise" (or maybe "erudition.")

If Assam has a higher debt burden than Chhatisgarh, and its fiscal deficit is far worse than Chhatisgarh... considered by itself, this actually suggests that Chhatisgarh is doing something right compared to Assam, doesn't it??

That Chhatisgarh per se has limited resources and a lot of development demands to balance with its counterinsurgency needs, is not at all changed by the state of Assam's fiscal deficit or debt burden. This strawman is even more vacuuous than most!

"The fact that AP, with a police-to-population ratio lower than C'garh, and a per-capita expdt on police substantially lower than C'garh, does so much better with its anti-inurgency campaign isnt a question of quality of execution, but of differential perfidies!"

This is a more egregious "rebuttal" than all the others, given that I haven't even mentioned AP once in my posts on this topic. Anyway...

The strawman being advanced here is that AP's naxalite insurgency vs. Chhatisgarh's naxalite insurgency are one and the same; but that AP has "done so much better" even though it spends less on police per-capita.

The fallacy, of course, is the implication that the present and historical nature of the naxalite insurgency in both states, and of the relative experience of the administrations in combating naxalite insurgencies in both states, is somehow equivalent. Of course, it isn't... and therefore, as a comparator, it is utterly meaningless.

Also note the self-contradiction between this and other statements. So far, the thrust of the Elite Iskooled poster's arguments has been that Chhatisgarh isn't spending enough on modernizing it's police, as here:

"Of course, the fact that C'garh (along with many other states) fails to utilise Central grants for modernisation also is a Christian/Leftist conspiracy, and not the incompetence of the state govt!
http://www.zeenews.com/news692992.html"

So spending more money on police is conveniently equated with "competence" when it comes to Chhatisgarh, and for that matter Assam... and yet, AP (which spends less money on police per capita than Chhatisgarh) is hailed as doing "so much better" with its anti-insurgency campaign!

To mention the possibility of "differential perfidies", of course, could be considered a Freudian slip coming from a Mainovadi. After all, Chhatisgarh has been an opposition-ruled state for 7 years now; while AP has been ruled by the Congress for an equivalent period (including 5+ years under the crypto-evangelist YS Rajashekhar Reddy.) So it wouldn't really come as a surprise if whoever is behind the maoist insurgencies in the two states, has lowered the pressure in AP while keeping it up in Chhatisgarh!

This is a pattern that one may discern in all opposition-ruled states (including Bihar, WB, Chhatisgarh, Orissa for a period) compared to UPA-ruled states when it comes to the relative intensity of Maoist insurgencies. But that of course, isn't a "data" point visible to Elite-Iskool RANDE who stick their heads in the toilet of Western academia and wait devotedly for a review of their pee-ers!

That Chhatisgarh has managed to keep up one of the highest growth rates in India while combating a severe maoist insurgency, shows if anything an impressively efficient counterinsurgency strategy in terms of "quality of execution".

"Of course, the fact that a richer (and more vastly more indebted) state like Mah has similar per-capita budgetary expdt is symptomatic of the fiscal space available to C'garh is of course too involved a variable to be of comprehension to "non-elite schooled" people..."

Yes, and thank goodness for non-elite schools where hand-waving and jargon have not completely displaced information and common sense as analytical tools. For posters with an agenda, "involved" variables are tools best used to advance the motivated involution of logic.

The fallacy that the Elite-Iskool poster is trying to advance by implication here, is that... somehow... Chhatisgarh has plenty of "fiscal space" because it has as much per-capita budgetary expenditure as Maharashtra. Meanwhile the baseline of where Chhatisgarh is on the development index, vs. where Maharashtra is on the development index, is completely ignored.

Of course, if you live in a jhobadpatti and your boss lives in a mansion, and if you have any intention of improving your life...then you have to make Rs.1,000 go a much longer way than your boss does! This much is obvious to most people, whether or not they went to Elite Iskools.

Apparently this unique view of "fiscal space" is one of those Lehman Brothers/Bear Stearns type perspectives which is responsible for the fine state of mortgage banking in the United States today!

Great, in a nutshell, policy decisions on outlays and execution policies are taken by the the state govt, but the consequences of the outcomes are attibuted to someone else!

The "nutshell" is a favourite technique of people advancing strawman arguments. By cramming four different specious statements into one "nutshell", they create a super-strawman which has not even tangential relevance to any argument that was previously advanced.

After all it is easier to misrepresent someone else's arguments when pretending to "summarize" them! Using fewer words is an asset to anyone primarily interested in the manipulation of ambiguity. Unfortunately, it also betrays his astonishing contempt for the intellect and reasoning capacity of all his readers on bharat-rakshak.

"And yes, one sweeping generalisation taking in VDCs, SOGs, SULFA under one blanket, when they individually are different cases - showing great comprehension of India's story of anti-insurgency movements..."

Coming directly after the above "nutshell", the level of hypocrisy in referring to a “sweeping generalisation” is just precious!

Not to mention a class-A strawman in itself: Who has said that VDCs, SOGs, SULFA are not "individually different cases"? Has anyone asserted that these are all part of some master-plan, derived from the same template?

Yet, this is the pile of moldy ghaas which our Elite-Iskool poster is proudly and dramatically attacking!

As examples of the strawman fallacy, all the above are real gems... and it is very instructive for us to see this in action, as it is a favourite debating technique of the overground anti-nationals. Transparently incompetent as he is, the Elite-Iskool poster does us all a favour by providing such a wealth of strawmen to examine.

"As stated earlier, axiliary forces like SOG and VDCs have been effective in J&K/Punjab...But Salwa Judum is a different animal altogether, there is no comparison of the two...

Finally a grain of honesty shows itself among the reams of specious rubbish peddled in the guise of "arguments" upto this point!

We have a brazen, bald-faced and completely unsubstantiated assertion... that Salwa Judum is a "different animal altogether" and bears "no comparison" to VDCs or auxiliary counterinsurgency measures in other states (Why a "different animal" I wonder? Because it is "Hindu"? Because it was raised by a BJP government? No reason—or gods forbid, “data”—is offered!)

Prejudiced, unsubstantiated, unfounded and opinionated though the statement is... it at least gives a clear indication of where the Elite Iskool poster is coming from politically. Next time he asserts that "we are all on the same (India's) side", at least we will have some indication of how seriously to take him.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 29 Apr 2011 00:56

One more thing.

"Civility", just like "credibility", is something that must be earned.

Some amounts of both are automatically accorded to a new member visiting BRF for the first time. However, they will quickly run out for a poster who constantly demands refills, while establishing a track-record of trolling, thread derailment, ad-hominem attacks and casting aspersions on other posters; and who relentlessly advances an ideologically motivated agenda contrary to the national interest.

Just ask any Pakistani who ever registered here. They never seem to stay long.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 29 Apr 2011 06:22

self deleted

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 29 Apr 2011 07:53

Its amusing - "non elite" pretentiousness brings up the question of "police expenditure", compares it across states to show how "little" "poor C'garh" is spending..When pointed out civics 101 principle that the decision on outlays is one of the state govt, it becomes a strawman....Symptomatic of complete ignorance of anything and therefore clutching at any "straw" of a argument (through Google search?) - when pointed out the fallacy of the same, covering up with invectives, maybe thats a non-elite school characteristic...

Its more amusing to read further "non elite" versions of public policy...So lack of funding outlays, lack of operational efficiency, lack of capacity building by using central grants - these are all the fault of everyone (ah no, only the usual suspects!) except the state govt! Oh-so-poor C'garh govt, cannot allocate more to policiing as it has other "priorities"...Point out the fiscal space available, point out central grants going unutilised - well, well, everything is well, nothing but something else! anyway, no reason can ever get through unwillingness!

BTW, one always thought civility was a deeply personal trait, usually a function of upbringing..I guess "non elite" schools teach otherwise...One learns every day...

Anyways, Aditya, no one is defending the Maoists...the critique is strictly of the C'garh state's aproach to its CI campaign..And critique is also of an attitide that says"poor C'garh cant do better" - because thats patently untrue...So dont see where the comparison with Pak/Lahore etc come in...

BTW, this is what Ajai Sahni, no one's idea of being a Maoist sympathiser, has to say about the Salwa Judum strategy..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/ajaisahni ... 040408.htm

And this is his assessment of the C'garh govt's overall record in 2010 against Maoists..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... isgarh.htm

Also, the analysis of the C'garh govt's strategy (or the lack of it)...
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/sair/Arch ... r8/8_3.htm

Read all in full...

If you are more interested, read the full bibliography of assessments..All here..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... index.html

There are no punches pulled for anyone, barring AP..So its not an ideological thing, its a real issue...Most state govts are bumbling around in their responses, C'garh is no different...But the latter is also simultaeneously creating more problems through Salwa Judum..

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 29 Apr 2011 12:54

Serendipity?

If one is really interested in knowing the horrors of the CI strategy in C'garh (incl Salwa Judum/Koya Commandos/SPOs), this article does more than any other in recent memory...

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story.asp ... =FullStory

Aman Sethi has known ideological proclivities (he wrotes for The Hindu!), but this article is devoid of any ideological passion, though not of passion per se..Which makes it so readable, and the story so disturbing...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Apr 2011 18:08

somnath wrote:Serendipity?

If one is really interested in knowing the horrors of the CI strategy in C'garh (incl Salwa Judum/Koya Commandos/SPOs), this article does more than any other in recent memory...

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story.asp ... =FullStory

Aman Sethi has known ideological proclivities (he wrotes for The Hindu!), but this article is devoid of any ideological passion, though not of passion per se..Which makes it so readable, and the story so disturbing...

You hit the nail on the Head with the word "story". The article is as if Police land from Mars and Super clean Maoists who suddenly appear when the hear of Police raids, How Villagers have formed Maoists Village defence commitees against Police etc...

How he can get through incompetant police check posts, interview the mitary planning of Maoists etc... Boss the article is propaganda and thats the part the Maoists ~~or thier backers~~ have the financial muscle for such proganda

4 lakh tribals displaced due to Maoist activities

'Maoists using children as human shields'

Kandhamal : First the ‘red’ hand, now NGO link

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Apr 2011 18:14

Ajay Sahni is actually good - pretty pretty good!
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/ajaisahni ... 040408.htm

Arming civilians a threat to sovereignty?

The Supreme Court’s recent obiter dicta on the subject of civilian armed groups were based essentially on the objection to the state ‘disbursing arms to civilians’ — and to the extent that this was, in fact, the case in the early phase of the Salwa Judum, this is both beyond the law and well beyond the dictates of sagacity within any rational counter-insurgency framework.
[...]
Crucially, any effort to provoke and arm common people to directly confront armed insurgents constitutes a complete and immature abdication of responsibilities on the part of the state. Popular mobilisation may play some role in a counter-terrorist strategy well after the security forces have established their dominance in particular areas; but where they are unable even to effectively protect themselves, provoking the people in regions that are immensely under-policed can only invite retaliation and untold suffering on the heads of the innocent.

So is "allowing" arming of civilians exempt from the charge of "immature abdication of responsibilities on the part of the state"? The Naxalites developed from within JLN and his successors firm rule over the "state" of India for the first 20 years of Republican India! The Naxalites were not army or security - but civilians who got armed, and with quite good weapons and explosives - sometimes military grade.

When arming of civilians into Naxalites were allowed in the first place, for 20 long years [the first such move happened in 1948 and peaked upto 1968 when the first significant confrontations happened again], why is suddenly arming of civilians to counter suddenly criminal? Is it because it takes away the central control on insurgency - which can then be centrally controlled as to how much activity is to be "allowed" in which state depending on electoral and other political equations?

It is not an ideal situation in teh fight against Maoism in C'garh. But what Salwa Judum has done, in fact cynically perhaps, is to force the Maoists to show their real colours as anti-people or anti-tribal. This removes any wool being peddled about Maoist working for the people or the tribals. When forced to choose "sides" thats when real affiliations come out.

Maybe it is this factor that is a problem, for people sympathizing with the title of the article and its facile quoter? That the leftists can no longer be painted as Robinhoodian friends of the people, and that the Centre-Left political regime at the centre cannot play "god" as the "paritrata" which on the ground seems to uncannily coincide with different levels of "control" in different states- dependent on political needs?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Apr 2011 18:30

Sushupti wrote:
BTW why do BR guys allow that NDTV dude to troll on their message boards?

http://twitter.com/#!/barbarindian

BR moderators allow it and if you have a problem with that please take it up with the webmaster.

OTOH I do have a problem with you bringing in NDTV and vishnu out of nowhere into this thread to call him a troll. if you want to call him names kindly do it off BR. or you will receive warnings as per our rules against personal attacks.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 29 Apr 2011 18:39

Aditya_V wrote:How he can get through incompetant police check posts, interview the mitary planning of Maoists etc... Boss the article is propaganda and thats the part the Maoists or thier backers have the financial muscle for such proganda

Again, the issue isnt about whether Maoists are "wrong", or "evil"...Though must say there wasnt any justification of Maoists terror in the article...Anyways, the critique (from my perspective) is about the state govt's approach to CI..

Read the comprehensive, if technical appraisals of Ajai Sahni posted above...Less passion than aman sethi's "story", but far more scathing in its critique..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Apr 2011 18:47

Nobody denies

1) There is Corruption in Maoist areas

2) There is incompetancy amound Govt departments and Officals

3) There is some strong muscle tactics used by Mining Mafia and Forest department guys deny largely uneducated Tribals of Thier rights

4) There are cases of Police/Government Officals raping women, sexually exploiting them, bribes taken from poor villagers, burning a poor tribals hut to harass them etc. serious crimes

But the Maoists are hardly starving Tribals or Do gooders and they are part of system which keep Tribals backward and ina state of fear.

And they have well trained paid lawyers/Media Barons who use every legal tactic to sabotage Police operations

and many of these problems are found all over India even in our cities.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 29 Apr 2011 23:16

Those who preach "civility" are certainly aware that "shamelessness" is a deeply personal trait as well... and one that almost invariably arises from one's upbringing, or lack of it!

So, lest this thread be spammed with opinionated propaganda pieces criticizing Salwa Judum, which some shameless people will in time try to pass off as "data"... let's hear also from an informed source whose commitment to the national interest is beyond question.

Friday, July 28, 2006
The biggest threat (28/07/2006)

By Swapan Dasgupta

In the dominant political culture of India, citizens are encouraged to treat terrorism as an unavoidable feature of modern existence and undertake no independent initiatives to counter it. When seven bombs on commuter trains left 200 people dead in Mumbai on July 11, the gratuitous advice from ‘responsible’ quarters was for angry citizens to observe a minute’s silence, emulate activist celebrities in wearing white on a specified date and then go back to work pretending nothing has happened. When deadly explosives packed in pressure cookers killed some 25 devotees at Varanasi’s Sankat Mochan temple, the suggested palliative was a dignified bout of Indian classical music.

When occasionally, very occasionally, citizens choose to break the shackles of liberal squeamishness and fight back, the full weight of ‘enlightened’ opprobrium is hurled against them. The human rights industry, famous for its remarkable sense of selective indignation, the editorial classes and the eminence grise of the NGO sector rise as one to discredit anything that smacks of either retribution or self-defence.

Even before the late-night massacre of 32 adivasis by Maoists in the Errabore relief camp in the Dantewada district of Chhattisgarh on July 17, a fierce propaganda offensive had been unleashed to paint the Salwa Judum movement in the darkest of colours. In December 2005, a group of ‘human rights’ activists released a report denouncing the Salwa Judum movement as an assault on the dignity of the tribal population. While silent on the atrocities committed by Maoists, the report accused “forces from other states” of “behaving like an occupation army.” The demand was made for a judicial inquiry into all atrocities committed by Salwa Judum activists and the police. In a feeble attempt to be even-handed, the report also called on the Maoists to provide details of all those killed by them.

Since this report was too tendentious to be digested by even the normally gullible media, another group, this time comprising well-connected senior journalists, retired bureaucrats and academics, with the grandiose title of Independent Citizens Initiative, ventured into Dantewada and other parts of the old Bastar district in May this year. Although there were some critical references to the Maoists, this report—which received very wide coverage—accused the BJP-led Chhattisgarh Government of using Salwa Judum to divide tribal society and use hapless adivasis as cannon fodder against the Left extremists. The handful—150 out of 5,000 to be exact—of Special Police Officers (SPO) appointed by the local administration who were issued primitive .303 rifles were also accused of unleashing a wave of terror. In these columns, Ramchandra Guha, a member of the ‘independent’ study, described the Congress’ Leader of Opposition Mahendra Karma—the man credited with kick-starting Salwa Judum—as a “dangerous populist” and compared him to Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi. Note that the fictional narrative about Salwa Judum being purveyed on BRF these days..."endangering innocent tribals", "committing atrocities"... has been percolating among the overground anti-nationals for at least 5 years!

The call for the Government to disband all relief camps and put an end to the Salwa Judum movement was subsequently echoed by the CPI(M) Politburo and the former Chhattisgrah chief minister Ajit Jogi. A meeting of the UPA-Left Coordination Committee held earlier this month, ostensibly to discuss inflation and price rise, ended up with the Communists badgering the Congress to pressure its state unit into withdrawing support to Salwa Judum.

The magnitude of the opposition to Salwa Judum may seem surprising considering its scope is so far limited to Dantewada district—a Congress, not BJP stronghold. Yet the CPI(Maoist) has thrown its entire resources—both political and military—behind an attempt to snuff out a popular movement against its armed terror. Almost the entire top Maoist leadership, mainly drawn from Andhra Pradesh, has moved into the Dandakaranya region, particularly the 3,924 sq km of the thickly forested Abujhmad region. (Perhaps one reason why AP's counter-Maoist campaign has been easier... I mean "more operationally efficient" than Chhatisgarh's?) It has shifted both men and material from adjoining Andhra Pradesh, Orissa and Gadhchiroli district of Maharashtra into Abujhmad to ensure that Salwa Judum does not spread beyond the 645 villages of Dantewada. Equally, the Maoists are determined to intimidate the 50,000 or so tribals who have taken sanctuary in 32 government-run relief camps.

Salwa Judum poses an enormous long-term threat to the Maoists. Contrary to what its overground publicists claim, the so-called socio-economic underpinnings of Maoism are feeble. To craft the Pashupati-Tirupati revolutionary corridor, the gun-totting guerrillas depend on terror and inaccessibility. The presence of just a handful of AK-47-wielding, trigger happy guerrillas in a remote village—where it takes hours for any police party to reach—is enough to transform a clump of forest land into a ‘liberated’ zone. Since the state, in most cases, doesn’t have the ability to offer 24x7 protection, many villages have succumbed to the Maoists without a fight. Today, Maoists are said to be in a commanding position over some 20 per cent of India’s forests. What a senior police officer in Raipur called the “tyranny of distance” has facilitated the Maoist advance. This shows why, in the short-to-medium term, there is really no alternative to empowering the local citizenry directly for self-defence against Maoists. The infrastructural underdevelopment that makes it impossible for state police forces to reach remote target areas for hours, cannot be solved by a 42-crore "police modernization" grant from the Centre. No wonder Chhatisgarh isn't eagerly rushing to put this little plaster band-aid on a cancerous limb!

This dire ground situation also demonstrates the absurd shallowness of Elite-Iskool claims regarding Chhatisgarh's alleged "fiscal space"

The Maoist takeover of a village is also accompanied by a ruthless policy of divide-and-rule which leads to one section—particularly unemployed youth—becoming collaborators. This is followed by the imposition of draconian controls over the economic and social life of the community—restrictions on tendu leaf collection, ban on toddy and cock fights and supervision of marriages. In ‘difficult’ villages, occupation is preceded by the systematic destruction of all hand pumps and the demolition of school buildings—because these can be used as makeshift police camps. Congress leader Karma was not exaggerating in describing Maoism as “an assault on our tribal identity.”

The genesis of Salwa Judum lies in the refusal of a large section of tribal society to endure this nonsense any longer. What began in May 2005 in Kutru village in Dantewada and quickly spread to neighbouring areas was essentially a non-cooperation movement against an occupying Red Army. Maoists and their sympathisers were chased out of villages and their supply chain was crippled. When large 8,000-strong gatherings of local people voted in unison to fight the Maoist menace, if necessary with bows and arrows, Chhattisgarh saw the beginnings of a popular upsurge. And this is what the "civil society" and "advocates of the people" are trying their best to suppress, by subverting the judiciary if necessary!

The local administration had neither the force nor resources to provide adequate protection to the Salwa Judum. The Maoists responded to the challenge with characteristic savagery. On February 28 this year, 26 people died in a landmine explosion at the venue of a Salwa Judum rally. On April 28, 13 people were abducted from Mankota village and killed in a particularly manner. The idea was to intimidate villagers into submission.

The Maoist reign of terror has yielded results. The 50,000 people living in the relief camps have not been forcibly relocated—as Maoist pamphleteers suggest. They are refugees who have fled their villages with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. During a visit to the Dornapal and Kutru camps earlier this month, I was struck by the absence of cattle and livestock. The adivasis said they had left all their possessions in the villages where, presumably, the Maoists had appropriated them. “We are willing to return, but only with protection” was the universal refrain in the camps.

A feckless Central Government has not yet come to terms with the enormity of what the Prime Minister called the “biggest threat” to the country’s internal security. The Maoists cannot be tamed by pouring money into inefficient welfare schemes. The guerrillas want to usurp political power by force. They can only be removed by a full-scale military operation aimed at recapturing lost territory. Salwa Judum can be a fitting complement to a mammoth counter-insurgency drive. It needs to be replicated throughout the Maoist belt.

The Telegraph, July 28, 2006

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 30 Apr 2011 01:06

Essentially, the long-standing, organized defamation campaign against Salwa Judum and Chhatisgarh counterinsurgency by the overground anti-nationals can be distilled down to four allegations:

1) “Salwa Judum commits violence!”

Horrors, why can’t they use pure Gandhian measures to fight insurgency, and guarantee that there will be not even one stray incident of corruption/harrassment/rape by their members? Like the Surrendered ULFA in Assam, Ikhwans in J&K, or even police forces everywhere else in India?

The selective manner in which shrill charges of violence, excess, corruption, intimidation and rape (don’t forget the rape!) are volubly applied to parties fighting on the side of the Indian people… while far more excessive atrocities perpetrated by terrorist groups are absolutely ignored… is not unique on the part of those bashing the Salwa Judum.

This is exactly the same story we hear about “atrocities by security forces alienating the Cashmeery people” in J&K… it’s always the police, always the central security forces, always the army, and never the stone-throwing, terrorist-supporting, Islamist-sympathizing, Indian-flag-burning, ethnic-cleansing “innocents” who are at fault. How many times have you heard that lie?

How about the “civil society”groups who objected to armed VDCs in J&K in the 1990s, standing guard with .303s in the villages of Doda and Rajouri against better-armed, better-trained LeT terrorists who thought nothing of beheading entire families? Does anyone remember how Yasin Malik and Shabbir Shah joined “civil society” interlocutors to petition that the VDCs should be disarmed, because if Hindu villagers had .303s it would create “communal tensions”?

Can there be any doubt as to the validity of the propaganda assault on the Salwa Judum, or even the identity of the liars behind that assault… given that they’re simply repeating the same lies used to smear India when she fights against any terrorist group anywhere?

Keep that in mind when you read the Elite-Iskooled poster’s specious attempts to defame Chhatisgarh's counterinsurgency campaign on this thread!

2) “Salwa Judum has blurred the lines between civilians and combatants, making the tribals into targets!”

This deliberately ignores the essential nature of Maoist insurgency: the Maoists are terrorists, and their very adoption of terrorism destroys the lines between civilians and combatants. Do Maoists not use tribal children as human shields, or punish suspected informants by murdering their entire families… both of which have been extensively reported? Do Maoists never use violence in the areas they dominate, to intimidate or punish non-combatant tribal civilians?

Is there any basis at all for saying that “non-combatants” were never targets for the Maoists, and only became targets when Salwa Judum appeared on the scene? What about the Maoist assassination squad sent after Swami Laxmanananda by the missionaries of Kandhamal (where there is no Salwa Judum)… were they maintaining clear and distinct lines between civilians and combatants?
The implicit lie being propagated here, is that “innocent tribals” become “targets” for Maoists only when they organize themselves as Salwa Judum or join the SPO units to fight back. This is predicated on an outright falsehood that also constitutes the very backbone of Maoist propaganda. IE, the idea that Maoists are “pro-people” and would never do violence against “innocent tribals”.

The Indian state and people are held to impossible moral standards, required to apologize and retact every attempt made to defend the security of civilians… while the Maoists terror groups are assumed to be morally unimpeachable and incapable of wrongdoing ab-initio.

This should give a clear idea of the ideological motivations behind those who purvey this filth… whether on national television or on bharat-rakshak.

3) “Salwa Judum was unprofessional, and inadequately trained!”

As brihaspati-ji says, if it is unethical or an “abdication of responsibility” to arm tribals to defend themselves (when bad infrastructure prohibits state police units from reaching combat areas within practical time-frames)… then how “ethical” has it been of the Central government to allow the massive infusion of arms, ammunition, funding, and materiel that was instrumental in creating Maoist insurgent groups in the first place? That isn’t merely an abdication of responsibility… it is an outright, systemic failure of national security policy by the central government at every level.

How colossal a failure is it? Well, given the curious patterns of Maoist insurgency selectively intensifying in opposition-run states … it could hardly have been more “inefficient” if it were done deliberately!

Under the circumstances, the Maoists had years of preparation and abundant resources thanks to the ineptitude or deliberate connivance of the central government. Salwa Judum had to catch up and fight back with very little time and few resources, so that in the initial phase of their existence, they were certainly less well trained/equipped than the Maoists.

This is true of any fight, however… a new popular resistance movement will initially be at a disadvantage against trained, organized professional killers for some time. Ironically, this only illustrates that Salwa Judum is a genuine popular resistance movement, and not a professional mercenary force backed by missionary and political interests… which the Maoists are.

All combatants get better with experience, though… and apparently the Salwa Judum and SPOs are getting better, or perhaps there wouldn’t be such a shrill chorus of opprobrium by the Maoist sympathizers trying to get them abolished!

4) “Salwa Judum activities have caused displacement of Dantewada tribals into camps!”

These camps have been described as “filthy, ill-protected and poorly provided… places of utter misery and destitution, their management riddled with corruption” by the allegedly “professional” critique of Ajai Sahni.

As opposed to the absolute lap of luxury represented by the air-conditioned, golf-coursed refugee camps elsewhere in India, perhaps? Maybe the “market” should determine the quality of life available to desperate people fleeing for their lives

It is unfortunate that more has not been done to facilitate healthy, productive and dignified living in the refugee camps of Chhatisgarh. This does not change one very basic fact: people who go to refugee camps, and stay there, do so because they have lost everything else and fear for their lives. To attack the standard of living in these camps as a means of defaming Salwa Judum is a strawman… it is thanks to the state that the tribals have any option other than complete loss of freedom, life and property to Maoist terrorists!

Also note here, that blaming Chhatisgarh SPOs and Salwa Judum for the plight of tribals in refugee camps is a favourite tactic of the overground anti-nationals.

The very same people will swear up and down that the Kashmiri Pundits only abandoned their homes and possessions and moved to their refugee camps in order to “spite” the secular Muslim separatists in 1990. It was all a campaign of defamation and communalization orchestrated by the "RSS-inspired" Jagmohan!

When all else fails, and moral/intellectual bankruptcy prevails… the RANDE have no choice other than to blame the victim!

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 30 Apr 2011 01:14

Now let us consider the red-herring case that has been brought before the Supreme Court by “concerned citizens” regarding the Chhatisgarh government’s backing of Salwa Judum.

Presumably, this is the reason why there has been much recent barking by Canis pseudo-secularis on this thread. To distract us from the motivated pursuit of an anti-national agenda, we are being treated to amusing diversions regarding “lack of operational efficiency” and “fiscal space”… gods forbid we should look beyond the drivel to the heart of the matter!

So what is this SC battle really all about?

For an answer, one has only to look at the sort of "civil society" vermin who brought that particular case before the SC... profoundly anti-national agenda-driven operators such as Ramchandra Guha and Nandini Sundar. Adding to their shrill rants is an FIR filed by another known Maoist-sympathizer, Swami Agnivesh.

We have seen this sort of scum successfully pressurize the SC on the Mainovadi agenda before... and very recently too. In January 2011, "civil society" petitioners forced the SC to expunge the following remarks it had made when sentencing Dara Singh in the Graham Staines case:

...the intention <of Dara Singh> was to teach a lesson to Graham Staines about his religious activities, namely, converting poor tribals to Christianity.

It is undisputed that there is no justification for interfering in someone’s belief by way of 'use of force,' provocation, conversion, incitement or upon a flawed premise that one religion is better than the other.

These remarks were originally made by the SC to explain why Dara Singh was sentenced to life imprisonment rather than death. However, under pressure from "civil society" activists and their political backers... the SC was forced to expunge them from the record.

Missionary groups celebrated the expungement of these remarks, declaring that it heralded an open season for soul-harvesting of the heathens, without any legal hindrance!

There is considerable doubt about whether this expungement was even constitutional, and whether the SC violated existing Rules of Review in the face of sustained Mainovadi pressure. Read Ashok Sahu’s review of the situation here:

http://leagueofindia.com/blog/graham-st ... w%E2%80%99

Given that precedent, it is not surprising that the SC has chosen to entertain this motivated piece of defamation by Naxal-apologists in the Chhatisgarh Salwa Judum case. This "civil society" mafia has clearly been able to bend the will of the nation's apex court to suit its agenda, at least once before!

Similar efforts were apparently made in the Binayak Sen case as well, aiming to secure the acquittal of a man who aided and abetted Maoists actively waging a self-declared war against the Republic of India.

Is it any surprise, then, that Mainovadi thuggery is now seeking to invalidate the counterinsurgency strategy of an opposition-ruled state by using that same apex court as a pliant weapon?

As for those "unclaimed funds" by the Chhatisgarh government: it seems that when the Chhatisgarh government does use Central grants to combat Maoists in what it deems an efficient manner, i.e. raising SPOs among tribal populations... "civil society" groups with Mainovadi backing will try to sabotage those efforts through the Supreme Court! The SC petitioners are trying to shut down central government grants being used to partially fund the SPOs, after all!

So what incentive does Chhatisgarh have to accept yet more Central Govt. grant money, if "civil society" groups are going to try and dictate what measures it can fund with that money?

Incidentally, if you look at the funds actually allocated state-wise in the Central Govt police grants:

http://www.zeenews.com/news692992.html

Chhatisgarh (facing "the greatest threat to India's internal security" per MMS) has been allotted a paltry Rs. 42 crore. As compared to Haryana, a state with no significant law-and-order issues, that has been allotted Rs.100 crores! Other states affected by Maoism are getting 223 crores (Maharashtra), 206 crores (Bihar), 180 crores (MP), 113 crores (AP)... but Chhatisgarh must make do with a mere 42 crores according to this allocation of Central funds for "police modernization"!

Is Rs. 42 crore enough to magically provide infrastructure that will enable police to reach areas targeted by the Maoists within an actionable time-frame? Point defense against terrorism in remote areas can only be provided by SPOs recruited from the local population, until such infrastructure is built… something Chhatisgarh is working slowly but surely towards, as evidenced by its admirable rate of growth and development. Until that happens, it seems the RANDE advocates would prefer that the tribals meekly surrender to Maoist atrocities, receiving no protection at all, rather than being empowered to protect themselves!

Not that Chhatisgarh needs to claim Central funds which the "civil society" mafia will soon petition the SC to withdraw in any case! But those allocation figures indicate exactly how sincere the Central Govt is in assisting Chhatisgarh in its fight against Maoist insurgency.

Swapan-da describes very well the nature of the RANDE fluxus, including the suited-booted phynansul anal-ists determined to vomit in the hundi from which all of us “non-elites” are trying to eat!

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... lf-defence

Although a minusculity, this Fringe India enjoys high public profile courtesy endorsements by People Like Us and backing by the English language media. Their refined angst may irritate crowds who cheer the cricket team but they have the power to sway crusading IAS officers and activist judges. To the west, they are India's future.
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Some libertarian supporters of Sen have argued that passive extremism, including calls for the violent overthrow of the state and secession, should be tolerated as long as there is no actual involvement with the real world. This implies that jihadi propaganda can be tolerated as long as those advocating violence aren't involved in a terror cell. They can legitimately remain detached motivators. The irony is inescapable: the Indian state must guarantee the use of democracy to destroy both democracy and itself.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Apr 2011 01:51

Rudradevji,
excellent series. Just wanted to say, perhaps a deeper political reason is the underlying doctrine of "violence is a state monopoly". In Indian rashtryia terms - rashtra==Congress. The C'garh model provides a counter to the centre' or rashtras' ability to selectively use its instruments of coercion by physical violence. This means that over time, the monopoly that Congress led regimes now enjoy [or the admin infrastructure they leave behind when they happen to be out of power on those rare occasions] - over the selective use of violence - may not be very effective towards their political power.

It is natural to expect that Maoists would concentrate on Dantewada. Maoist attack appears to intensify whenever the regional regime appears to fall out with Congress - even if the regime was perhaps in virtual or real alliance before. Salwa Judum poses a threat to Congress monopoly over rashtryia violence hence it will be targeted with all the resources of the Maoists.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Apr 2011 12:26

More amusing...Facts are never a consideration, only polemics (actually invectives) are! Maybe thats what "non elite schools" imbibe..

1. Shortage of policing capacities..

Against the sanctioned strength, there is a deficit of nearly 24 per cent, yielding a total of 32,785 personnel.

Absolute deficits in the Force are compounded by even graver deficits in Force leadership.
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At the cutting-edge rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police, the sanctioned strength stands at 212, but available strength is just 135 – a deficit of 36.32 per cent. In the ranks between Inspector and Assistant Sub-inspector, the deficit stood at as much as 40.5 per cent, according the the NCRB Crime In India 2007 report

2. Central grants - issue with simple reading comprehension precludes understanding...the 42 crore grant is not a "mother of all" grants - it is one of several such schemes..This is specifically for imparting "training" to policemen...And the numbers are broadly proportionate to the strength of the force in various states...So C'garh has ~34k policemen has gotten 42 crores, AP with 82k policemen has gotten 113 crores...But of course, such simple common sense would not be so uncommon had it not been for , well, certain types of "non elites", isnt it?

These are the nuts-and-bolts issues that make for a successful CI posture - but of course, a "disillusioned" C'garh presumable doesnt want to take such steps! Only hire alwa Judum/SPOs!!! And further complicate the issue..

BTW, the total central grants-in-aid to C'garh is 5.5k crores....

And finally, opinion is wheeled out of whom? Swapan Dasgupta...He is a delightful read, all the time, in many parts because he doesnt have the anachronistic pretensions of the loony right (comes from his "elite school" background I suppose!)..But even he would be hesitant in describing himself as either a professional security expert or for that matter, an on-the-ground reporter anymore...He is making a political point in support of his "party" (well, ideological "friend"), but that hardly substitutes for an analysis of CI strategy...

Talking of "security experts", the fallacy of Salwa Judum has been pointed out over the years many times...Here's an old piece by Col Rahul Bhonsle..
http://www.boloji.net/opinion/0226.htm

The original plan was surely different, something in lines with the VDCs in Punjab - as it was originated when KPS Gill was the advisor to the C'garh govt...Very soon though, it degenrated into something totally different..No wonder Gill himself left after one year, disilllusioned...

But of course, a dispassionate critique of CI strateies is not what is being looked at...Only a barrage of insinuations and invectives make the "cut", with complete non sequitor like Graham Staines and Jagmohan pulled in for good meaure..And yes, AP has been "spared" of Maoists presumable because of Maino/Christian bias towards the INC-ruled state!!! (I guess no one told Cherukuri Azad that!)...Talking of non sequitor.....

And yes, its amusing that people like Swami Agnivesh, Ram Guha et al are all described as "INC/missionary/leftist"-loving fifth columnists when they oppose Salwa Judum..Wonder what happens to their political prefernces when they talk of Lok Pal, enthusiastically cheered on by the "nationalists"!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 30 Apr 2011 13:16

somnath wrote:And yes, its amusing that people like Swami Agnivesh, Ram Guha et al are all described as "INC/missionary/leftist"-loving fifth columnists when they oppose Salwa Judum..Wonder what happens to their political prefernces when they talk of Lok Pal, enthusiastically cheered on by the "nationalists"!

Swapan Dasgupta is making a political point in support of his 'party' but Swami Agnivesh and Ram Guha are non-partisan, 'dispassionate' 'CI analysts' ? The dynasty-loving cheerleaders on this forum continue to astound with their logically-challenged analogies

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 30 Apr 2011 20:23

Arjun wrote:Swapan Dasgupta is making a political point in support of his 'party' but Swami Agnivesh and Ram Guha are non-partisan, 'dispassionate' 'CI analysts' ?

Is this is the "logically unchallenged" view of the "non elite" trained? No wonder...When were Agnivesh or Ram Guha cited as "CI experts"? The only point to be highlighted is the fallacy of the badges of "leftist/fifth columnistsINC-supporters" etc given to them for their political opposition to Salwa Judum, while cheered on when they oppose the same sections they are accused to be camp-followers of! Some level of undestanding this...

Yes, on CI strategy of C'garh..What is wrong with Salwa Judum as compared to other auxulliary forces raised elsewhere? Well, everything...

Lets hear it from some real "experts", including from the "Mr CI", KPS Gill himself..

Here is the first - an analysis of the Punjab CI by Anant Mathur..
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publicati ... ticle2.htm

In Punjab, voluntary Village Defense Schemes (VDS) were put into effect and Special Police Officers (SPOs) were appointed in the villages. According to Gill, "The objective was to arm volunteers in vulnerable villages to resist terrorist action at the local level."48 Many SPOs were Army or Police veterans. The Police provided weapons, training, pickets, and bunkers with Police patrols to build confidence amongst the villagers.

Note the crucial points:

1. VDCs were setup in existing villages - so people were encouraged to defend their own home and heart..Compare that with Salwa Judum, where sections of tribals have been wholesale ripped out of their communities (land, forest etc) and settled in badly run temporary camps...

2. Army/police veterans, people who knew concepts of discipline and training were recruited...Salwa Judum - young boys have been handed out weapons with little training...

3. A full network of police support was setup around the VDC, so that thre would be quick professional support if/when the VDC came under attack...Compare that with the situation in C'garh, where the deployment patterns of the police/CRPF itself is faulty and prone to ambushes..And Salwa judum camps are logisticaly challenged for any effective police support in case of an attack..

Some more..

Initially, the villagers were afraid that the terrorists would target them for acting in self-defense. As expected, the initial response to the schemes was lukewarm. The schemes did not become popular until the tide had effectively turned against the terrorists. The initiative was scarcely subscribed to in 1989, but became gradually popular in 1990 and 1991
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In Punjab, the enthusiasm for the VDCs in the second half of 1990 was a direct reflection of the tide turning in favor of the SFs

Even with scu meticulous planning, VDCs were a supplementary exercise, to "support" the real police action...Not a "replacement" of required police action...VDCs became popular after the police action gained upper hand..In C'garh, Salwa Judum is being expected to lead the battle! Without the C'garh police even getting the basics of CI strategy and capcities in place (forget "upper hand"!), a bunch of quasi-auxilliary Salwa Judum is literally pushed into battle...

By KPS Gill hmself..

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publicati ... pstext.htm

Importantly,

Unlike previous operations, the army and the police (both state and para-military) acted in complete concert, with a clearly defined institutional structure of cooperation and consultation. An officer of the rank of Inspector General (IG) from the Punjab Police was attached to each Corps of the Army deployed in Punjab. A Superintendent of Police (SP) was assigned to each Brigade. Police contingents were attached to every Army battalion, so that comprehensive and coordinated actions could be taken

Compare this to C'garh, in that massacre of 76 CRPF jawans, there was only 1 local constable attached to that company...Also compare this with the testy relations between the CRPF and C'garh police, played out publicly in the media!

But oh, all of this isnt important at all...All that we need to do is to examine the deep perfidies of Swami Agnivesh, Ram Guha, Ajai Sahni, missionaries, English language media, uncle, aunty and everyone...Once we shut up Swami Agnivesh, give Salwa Judum an even "freer" hand, Maoist terror will be defeated!!!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 30 Apr 2011 21:27

somnath wrote:Is this is the "logically unchallenged" view of the "non elite" trained? No wonder...When were Agnivesh or Ram Guha cited as "CI experts"? The only point to be highlighted is the fallacy of the badges of "leftist/fifth columnistsINC-supporters" etc given to them for their political opposition to Salwa Judum, while cheered on when they oppose the same sections they are accused to be camp-followers of! Some level of undestanding this...

Spare me the 'elite / non-elite' prattle - I have never been the one to focus on that. Since you insist on bringing up 'eliteness' as a criteria- all I can say is, from what little I know of your educational background, I wouldn't be so sure as to which one of us is the 'non-elite'...

As regards powers of reasoning my friend, when you reference Swapan Dasgupta's opinion as not counting because he is

making a political point in support of his "party" (well, ideological "friend"), but that hardly substitutes for an analysis of CI strategy...

and then follow that up with a wail that Swami Agnivesh' and R Guha's views on Salwa Judum are not taken seriously - the only rational explanation is that you don't believe these latter two 'worthies' to be suffering from the same drawbacks as Swapan. Let me know if you need me to explain the logic to you again slowly one more time.

And what exactly do you mean by the 'fallacy of the badges of leftists / INC supporters' ??? Both of these worthies would be the first persons to admit to these labels ! Don't tell me you actually want to dispute this !! Both have been extensively quoted where they have distanced themselves completely from the BJP. Which national party do you imagine them to be supporters of ??