Indian Interests

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SwamyG
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

devesh wrote:the British gave stability too. I mean why bother with the "independence" struggle and all those things which require fighting and conflict. just accept their rule and you have "stability". it is the same philosophy applied to Nehru: just accept his "rule" b/c you will have "stability"......utter nonsense.
If you are married, then think about the following situation: Your child does something wrong, say vandalizes the neighbors yard. Would you prefer your neighbor thrashed your child or if your wife thrashed him? I do not know about you, but I would rather have the neighbor complain to me and either SHQ or give the necessary punishment.

Do you argue, for the sake of arguing?
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

Theo_Fidel wrote:She was also the source of the low IQ problem, more specifically her husband Feroz of Parsi origin
:| Seriously, you bring that in to the discussion ? Wow. You have a knack of introducing your pet biases and prejudices when one is seldom looking.
vishvak
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by vishvak »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Anything that happened under Nehru's rule is not Nehru's contribution but something that happened under PVNR/ABV is their contribution though? Anything negative that happened under Nehru should be an albatross singularly borne by Nehru but similar stuff for other regimes can be explained away (e.g., IC-814, Godhra, Babri Masjid, etc.).

This takes the cake for madrassa logic that is the overarching theme of this thread.
If Nehru is believed to be the chap who started secularism in India is the line, then I would say that Integration of Indian states was 95% done by Patel, which is ignored completely.

Lets not get into IC-814 please here. I think it is out of place. About Babri Masjid, Godhra - it seems that other 'regimes' are somewhat completely blamed without context, making it look like these events has had no prior history. Rama Janmabhumi issue is in the Supreme Courts and those who burnt Hindu pilgrims in Godhra are in jail. In fact, Godhra (I think Gujarat Riots was meant by here) and Babri Masjid have bloody history. There is no point making this look like a 'regime' invaded Europe/M-east and took slaves.

If it is ok to ignore context of one side, it is ok to ignore other's side. It is also not ok to claim that the 'regime' is not secular, when the regime is more secular for many others like Jews.

I wonder what would Jews say to this.
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

Moderators: You have been silent....so far. Do you think these discussions still should go on here? Isn't there a JLN thread? Why the silence and lack of direction?
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Vishvak, it is not a question of what is right and what is wrong. Hindu aggression or Muslim aggression are events, we can keep analyzing and do a Teesta or a justification for all these things. I have no problem with that. In fact, I will justify the Hindu responses to continued idiocy on the part of Muslims over many decades, but thats a different story. I have no shame in taking the counter-opposite viewpoint either. To me, thats a personal liability and I have no problem in being hypocritical.

My problem is with Raja Dharma. What was the PM doing? What was PVNR doing in case of Babri Masjid and what was ABV doing in case of Godhra? They forgot their raja dharma. You can place the least amount of weight to that happenstance. You can attach legal liability or not or point to the sub judice nature of these issues. I am calling for a moral liability. In my eyes, both PVNR and ABV were/are morally liable because of the raja dharma that is equivalent to the oath they took to protect Indians independent of religion. This may make more sense to the victims on either side, not to you or me. Now you cant undo these things, one can wish/hope that karma will wash away the moral/ethical responsibility of sitting and watching while Rome burnt. There are no clear/nice answers to things that have crossed the rubicon.
RamaY
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG garu,

Do we really need Mods to moderate us? Most of us involved in this discussion are here for years and have thousands of posts under our belts. If we don't know how to be civil in our discussion what is the point of being here for this long?

Long existing prejudices cannot be cleansed without some shakeup. This Medho-sagara Mathanam is necessary to clear our minds about many prejudices that exist in our nation. Let us churn till we get Amruta. We can seek moderators help when the true halahal comes out :)
RamaY
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

Stan_Savljevic wrote: My problem is with Raja Dharma. What was the PM doing? What was PVNR doing in case of Babri Masjid and what was ABV doing in case of Godhra? They forgot their raja dharma. You can place the least amount of weight to that happenstance. You can attach legal liability or not or point to the sub judice nature of these issues. I am calling for a moral liability. In my eyes, both PVNR and ABV were/are morally liable because of the raja dharma that is equivalent to the oath they took to protect Indians independent of religion. This may make more sense to the victims on either side, not to you or me. Now you cant undo these things, one can wish/hope that karma will wash away the moral/ethical responsibility of sitting and watching while Rome burnt. There are no clear/nice answers to things that have crossed the rubicon.
I love it when we delve into morality and Raja Dharma :mrgreen:

By that yardstick how do you evaluate Gandhi and Nehru who didn't do their "Raja Dharma" during partition riots? We are talking about Million+ lives. What about the millions left to Islamic hordes in Pakistan and BD? What about the cultural destruction of Tibet? What about the 300,000 Hindu families immigrants in their own nation? And so on...

On that scale PVNR, ABV, NM (you put any name you do not like) look like kid Rakshasas compared to the Ravanas that you think are fathers of the nation.

What about Raja Dharma of current INC dispensation that is witch-hunting for Hindu-terrorism while sitting pretty on Christian terrorism in NE and over religious conversion all over India?
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

Hindu Code Bill is definitely of Indian interest. It has to do with JLN - but it does not have to do with him only, because the issue was much larger than JLN as a person. The consequences have been wonderful for India.

It is ironic that in the condemnation of the supposed level of logic in this thread, we first have the demand that people should research things before they speak on it. When people do research and quote from academic work [after all to find authentic and reliable work one ultimately lands up with academic work onlee] - if the quotes go against pet agendas masquerading under pretensions of neutrality - those quoted material become academic gibberish.

Moreover, it is now required that facts cannot be used to support opinions. Opinions should be based on facts. What level of linguistic sophistry leads to trying to pretend that there is a huge difference between the two? Well, first the assumption that others who are quoting facts in support of their opinions - did not form their opinions based on explorations of facts. On the other hand it assumes that even searches for facts are never guided by some initial opinions. What it shows is an underlying demand that facts can be quoted only if they support certain dogmas - not otherwise.
Now that is not madrassah logic - because it is declared not to be so by a dogmatist.

The primary issue of Hindu Code Bill remains relevant till today because of the following:

(1) It was downhill skiing from the Declaration of fundamental rights included in the Karachi resolution in 1931. Exactly on what points it did this downhill skiing is usually not taken up - perhaps again because the "facts" would be discomforting.

(2) One of the major downhill skiing was done on restricting the "urgently needed reform" (no random quotes - exact words from JLN himself - I guess that alone would sanctify the quotes as holy and non-random) - to the Hindu community onlee. JLN explicitly avoided touching the Muslim and Christian personal law. No wonder there would be certain sections which would see this as a huge score.

(3) Unfortunately for some here on this thread - JLN himself acknowledged or declared so in debates that that he saw the "Hindu" society not as static but dynamic, and that Hindu existing practices were already mostly following the norms sought to be codified by the bill [ this came up in pointers put up by debaters who placed evidence as to the reality of practices on ground compared to initial vituperation given by the proponents of the bill]. JLN specifically suggested that existing practice of the majority of Hindus and their dynamic social attitude would make the acceptance of the proposed reform in its scaled down version - easier.

(4) The bill's strongest proponent was Babasaheb. During the time, two critiques came up and academic scholars since then have not been able to rule them out decisively. First was the ongoing controversy around Babasheb's own second marriage, and his often casually dropped statements that could be interpreted by many as a kind of mahar crusade to bring down the pride of the so-called upper-castes. There exists official docs that indicate that JLN had considered his law-minister a liability and accepting the latter's resignation.

(5) JLN himself and supporters of the Bill - refused to engage the case for UCC, using subtleties of Article 44. It is significant to note that JLN repeatedly said that he did not want to impose reforms on communities unwilling to accept such reforms - and that he knew that such reforms would not work if the communities themselves were opposed. He felt confident that the "Hindu" would be receptive. Thus from the man himself we have the acceptance of the community being willing - which together with his rather violent opposition to UCC [which had been his equally passionate commitment at Karachi] implies that he felt that the other communities entangled into the debate would oppose such reforms violently, and he did not want to risk such opposition.

(6) However, the fact that he was not so very confident about the society at large is shown by his refusal to put the bill up before the CWC or for a public referendum or putting it into the election manifesto and thus take an indirect referendum- which Babu Rajendraprasad proposed. Rajendraprasad led the charge against the Bill providing the strongest legal critiques, with Sardar following a close but more discrete second. This was perhaps the beginning of precedence by which important decisions that the future autocrats of the new Indian system felt would have dubious approval from the public or even his/her own party - would zealously steer clear of such specific issue focused public or broader democratic referral.

Some scholars suggest that this conflict between the president and the PM led to future continuous curtailment of Presidential privileges in succeeding descendants.

No wonder, the specific relief given to non-Hindu communities [which itself has finally reduced specifically to the Muslim and Christian] from the immense benefits of reform [ using in typically JLNesque fashion the excuse that these communities did not want such reform - while brushing aside protests from within legislature that the Hindu community was equally skeptical with the various provisions of the proposed Bill and at the minimum if JLN felt so confident of the society at large's support why did he refuse to take a public referral?] has gladdened many secularist heart!

JLN took a very laudable step in helping to draft the 1931 resolution about the equality of all rights between the genders. But his compromise to the mullahcracy and the churchocracy on this makes the entire basis of his enthusiasm suspect. Having said that - maybe the congressites should read up the original resolution of 1931 and should try to finish JLN's unfinished task - and implement a Uniform Civil Code for all irrespective of religious shenanigans?
RamaY
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

JLN took a very laudable step in helping to draft the 1931 resolution about the equality of all rights between the genders. But his compromise to the mullahcracy and the churchocracy on this makes the entire basis of his enthusiasm suspect. Having said that - maybe the congressites should read up the original resolution of 1931 and should try to finish JLN's unfinished task - and implement a Uniform Civil Code for all irrespective of religious shenanigans?
Thanks Bji,

Your post made me read a lot about this issue.

When this happens INC will be branded as right-wing, non-secular party by the same worthies.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

There have been enough non-INC governments in power after JLN to enact the Uniform Civil Code or undo the Shah Bano verdict. Why did nt they do it? Hiding behind coalition-itis as if that will let them give a free pass is not only funny, but also hides the message that the people who are supreme did nt trust them to run the government on their own :)....
RamaY
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

^ What did you want to say?

* That Indian people did not trust non-INC govts much so they didn't give them enough majority?
Or
* That non-INC govts didn't do a UN-Shabano or UCC with their minority govts? How would the INC opposition have voted in that situation? For the bill?
devesh
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by devesh »

"enough" non-INC govts you say....waah, this madrassa logic is truly astonishing. BJP with 183 seats, 87 seats short of absolute majority, relying on partners like TDP, DMK/AIADMK, BJD, JD(U), AGP, etc could not even dream about touching Uniform Civil Code. JS/JP were not in power long enough to touch issues like UCC. Deve Gowda and Gujral couldn't possibly have gone even within a 100 miles of UCC territory, given the weakness of their govts.....

truly, this notion of "enough" non-INC govts to "implement UCC" would be astonishingly funny if not for the sheer lack of reality perception that it shows.....Stan, you definitely are living in a fantasy land.
member_19686
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by member_19686 »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Nehru's contribution to codifying succession laws via the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Marriage_Act is often seen as a revolution. Sure, marxist historians yea yea. But from what was there in pre-47 era to what was made, it was a revolution.
Any such eagerness to codify laws for Muslims and Xtians that were "revolutionary" or was he a coward when it came to that?

RamaY already asked you this but you carefully avoided it as is usual.

So much for Nehru's "secularism" and hot air from his cult members like you.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by devesh »

what Raja Dharma did RG display when he let close to 5000 Sikhs die and didn't even bother to stop the attacks. Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar still show up for various photo ops and such in cahoots with many INC leaders. what Raja Dharma is INC displaying?

and as for the question of the "standing" of the Babri Masjid itself, I would very much like to delve into that. But i'm not sure the mods will like where that discussion will go. if these structures, whether Mosques or Churches, were built by destroying pre-existing non-Muslim or non-Christian structures and built over them, then do these "new" structures have any claim over "legal" existence? are the adherents of pre-existing structures not entitled to any "rights"? if there are no such rights, then there should be no problem with BM demolition either: after all, the "old" structures loose relevance once "new" ones come up, don't they?
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

It is not a question about civil :-) Talking about JLN for a bit as an OT versus a few pages in say Indian Economics dhaaga would be frowned upon, no?
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Indian interests dhaga is kinda an OT dhaga then, I guess. For 'most anything can be shown to impinge on Indian interest. No?
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

SwamyG,
is ensuring gender equality in civil law [for that matter all issues connected to that - like inheritance] for all citizens of India - OT or relevant? in my post, JLN comes in only as a component, because he is indeed quoted and lauded by certain circles as being the sole creditor for "pushing" [thereby implying that somehow that the reformees were most reluctant] this reform though. But the point of departure from the 1931 resolution [and something I didnt discuss - which was the interim 1951 failure of even the scaled down version. JLN waited until at least Sardar was gone to split up the Bill with further dilutions into four and passed in stages] - to the ultimate compromises with "secular" Islamics and Christians - remains relevant for today.

It is not about JLN, but what makes such compromises inevitable within the current setup.
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

Bji:
You have a point. If a member shows using sound theories, facts and opinions to construct an argument say in the following format:
1. Premise: Policy A or Law X was against the Interests of India.
2. Premise: JLN helped enact that Policy or Law.
3. Conclusion: JLN's that particular action was against Indian interests.

Then I would be one among the first to seek the gyan. If somebody then constructs a for-loop and shows out of 100 policies, how the majority of them implemented by JLN was against the Indian interests, then one can also reach a conclusion he was not a very good leader, visionary or politician.

Of course each policy must be weighed against the options available to him and India then. Like I said several times, I would not defend him in cases where he is indefensible, IMO. Others might think differently.

The general trend of this dhaaga is to discuss the present and the future. If we are going to discuss the past, then like Hari garu says anything can be constructed as being in or against Indian interests and discussed here. What would happen to the JLN dhaaga?

Rightly or wrongly, I think JLN should have done more for Tibet. So I hold that against him. In the interest of discussion, like in a good faith agreement, I want to see what you would classify as one thing that JLN did was in the interests of the country (apart from participating in the Independence movement).
brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

SwamyG,
I had wanted to shift gear to an issue that perhaps should be of generic Indian interest? UCC - for all citizens? If I had wanted to really show JLN in negative light I would have quoted from the existing public domain records of the debates.

Your last item is curious. I don;t know why it becomes an obligation on my part to fetch something supposedly positive about JLN. I am more interested in issues that have always bothered me about nations and populations as whole - things like religiously justified atrocities, genocides in general, the humiliation of or sadistic enjoyment of the torment of human dignity, cruelty in all its forms - including imposed poverty.

For the person, I look for integrity - lack of deception, signs of sense of justice, commitment etc. While researching genocide - I came upon the Islamic and Christian inspired genocides, as well as communist genocides. I have equally witnessed brutality of the so-called upper-caste claims around Bihar [north actually even more than the south]. My very early childhood has seen enough such cruelty from all sources. While the political forces from within the Hindu [the Maoists were predominantly Hindu upper caste] quickly took care to an extent the Hindu "excesses", nothing - absolutely nothing has come forward from within the two others to the degree.

Thus for me any person who has shown obvious deliberate discrimination of valuing lives differently according to religion, as well as deliberate deceptive behaviour where saving lives are concerned indicating hidden discriminatory agenda - for me shows such a deep lack of laudable sides of humanity - that almost nothing else can compensate. My two closest "dakshin hastas" were (and remain) a Muslim and a Sikh. My life has been saved on several occasions by Muslim maa-jis, and I do not even feel their religion. This is why you will always find in my posts lambasting the theologians but never the common follower. I have personally never discriminated between lives based on their religion.

This aspect of JLN as should be clear from my posts above -lost any vestiges of regards that I might have felt for JLN. This for me is such a fundamental flaw in humanity - that anything else becomes suspect - even if appearing overtly positive. Such a person for me is capable of any betrayal of integrity and any order of pretension - for personal power, and I cannot respect him.

I have only challenged aspects that I felt were not supported by reality of events and personal behavioural records - and real records in fact contradicted the claims.

I did try to explore with an open mind his collective possible contributions - as in the acclaimed imperialism-wiping performance at Bandung. I was prepared to accept this as I indicated - but document after document showed otherwise. I have scanned some 14 [apart from the source FO material and Aden correspondence] now - some even less flattering than the ones I quoted.

I wanted to shift the discussion to UCC - because it should be of national interest. Regardless of how successful JLN was or how much he compromised - the very fact that he was part of the drafting effort in 1931 can belong to the Indian interests thread. I thought that those who admired JLN so much should also feel the need to complete his unfinished task? If you think otherwise you can of course let me know here!
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG garu,

It is fair you are asking others to make that research and present it to you in a nice format.

But per TF/SS speak we are not supposed to form an opinion (good/bad) on JLN. But that is not the case. We are coming here with some opinion. So the debate is about doing exactly what you are expecting.

I agree with you that we could have done this privately in JLN thread. At the same time it is not to wrong to debate it here for it criss crosses fewthings that are in Indian interests. I am sure mods are debating this as we speak. Perhaps we will x-post all this once we settle the debate.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by devesh »

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r4622.html

India: Empowerment of Pasmanda Muslims is a Must

By R. Upadhyay

Pasmanda, a word of Persian origin literally means 'those who have fallen behind', 'broken' or 'oppressed'. (Newage Islam)

The socio-political and religious movement of Indian Muslims has all along been a complex issue for social scientists.

However, a brief peep in the sociology of Islamic invaders and subsequent migration of people from the desert land of Arabia and its neighbouring regions for permanent settlement in the Indian sub-continent may throw some light as to how even after five hundred years of Islamic rule over 85% of Indian Muslims continued to be in the Pasmanda or marginalised group in the community.

Muslim theologians in South Asia claim social equality in Muslim society and claim that they are socially homogenous. But the ground reality is that the caste system of the community in South Asia is a social reality.

It is a fact that the Muslims of foreign origin in India who call themselves Ashraf never gave an equal status to non-Ashraf group of Muslims and always claimed and maintained their superiority over the latter. B.R.Ambedkar argued that social evils in Muslim society are "worse than those seen in Hindu society" (Wikipedia).

As far as Muslim population in India is concerned over eighty five percent of Indian Muslims are the descendents of the native Hindus who either under the threat of sword or through some allurement were converted to the faith of the ruling class. Of the remaining fifteen percent about ten percent are the descendents of the upper caste Hindu converts.

The rest five percent whose forefathers migrated to the Indian sub-continent from the desert land of Arabia and its neighbouring regions for their livelihood are proud of their so called superior origin and therefore always treated the Indian converts as inferior. In fact, overlooking the Islamic scriptural injunction against any socio-religious distinction on the basis of ancestry or regions they always remained alert to ensure that their traditional cultural character is not subsumed by the cultural character of the natives.

Claiming themselves Ashraf (Noble Muslims), they continued to maintain their socio-religious superiority over the native converts and treated them as Ajlaf (Low category of Muslims) and Arzal (Marginalised or degraded Muslims).

Thus, contrary to the general notion of a monolithic identity of Muslims, the Muslim society in the Indian sub-continent remained sharply divided into three exclusive segments - Ashraf, Ajlaf and Arzal.

The Hindu converts belonging to Artisan or backward castes who are treated as low category of Muslims by the Ashraf are called Ajlaf. Similarly, the Muslims with untouchable Hindu past are called Arzal which in Arabic denotes marginalized or degraded. In the modern political context while the Ashrafs are in the forward caste group, the Ajlafs and the Arzals belong to the category of backwards and Dalits. This combined group of Ajlafs and Arzals is known as Pasmanda Muslims.

The term Ashraf is plural of Arabic word Sharif which denotes noble, highborn, exalted or eminent and particularly refer to someone having a line of descent from Prophet Mohammad and his clan. However, over the years all the Islamist invaders from Arabia, Persia, Turkistan, Afghanistan and other Central Asian countries claimed themselves as Ashraf.

In the South Asian context Shaikh, Saayeeds, Mirzas, Moghuls and Pathans are primarily grouped in the category of Ashraf. The upper caste Hindu converts due to higher social status in Hindu past also assumed the status of Ashraf even though they did not get equal treatment by the Muslims of foreign origin. They rather bracketed themselves with the ruling class Muslims and became partner in socio-political exclusion of Pasmanda.

Shaikh in Arabic is an honorific term which literally means elder or leader and used for conferring title in honour for Islamic scholars or even for a man of stature particularly of Arab origin. In India the title of Shaikh was initially conferred to Islamic scholars but subsequently the Brahmin converts also assumed it as title to maintain their superiority among the Hindu converts. For example Sheikh Abdullah whose grand father Ragho Ram Kaul a Kashmiri Pandit was converted to Islam and was named as Shaikh Ibrahim.

Even Allama Iqbal was a Shaikh as his fore fathers were also Kashmiri Brahmin. The Sayyids on the other hand are said to be the descendents of the Prophet through his grand sons Hasan bin Ali and Husain bin Ali and have wider social respectability even within Ashraf. The orthodox Sayyids are so particular about their ancestry that even the children of a Sayyida (feminine of Sayyid) mother but a non-Sayyid father cannot assume the title of Sayyid and are instead having the title of Mirja.

Approximately, only 3% of Muslim population in South Asia (14,444,000) claim their descent from the Prophet. Of them 56,96,000 are in India. Mogul in Indian context is used for the descendents of Babar of Turko-Mongolian origin who founded the Moghul dynasty in 1526. Pathans in India link their lineage from the Pashtuns from Afghanistan who migrated to India during Muslim rule. Since they belonged to fighters’ race, the Rajputs and the other land owing castes in India also grouped themselves in the category of Pathan.

So long as India was under Islamic rule, Ashraf had no problem in maintaining their socio-political and religious superiority not only over the native Hindus but also over the native converts. However, their diminishing influence in centre of power particularly after the decline of Moghul empire from the middle of eighteenth century particularly after the rise of Maratha and Jat power prompted them to start the divisive politics of uniting the Muslim masses in the name of Islam for their self-seeking interest to re-establish the political authority of Muslims in Indian sub-continent. Projecting the rise of Hindu power as a danger signal to Islam one Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (1703-1762) a well known Ashraf Islamic clergy of his time wrote a widely known hate-Hindu letter to Abdali, the then ruler of Afghanistan and other powerful Ashraf in the region which worked as a catalyst to create awareness among the demoralized Muslims of foreign origin. This was the starting point of Ashraf politics in modern India.

The successive Islamic theologians and Muslim elite like Abdul Aziz (1746-1822), Syed Ahmad Barelvi(1786-1831) and those who launched various movements like Deoband, Aligarh, Tabligh Jamaat and Jamaat-e-Islami who had enjoyed honourable status in the Muslim society-all belonged to the Ashraf category and carried forward the theo-political legacy of Waliullah which is popularly known as political Islam. They established Islamic institutions which gradually underlined the need for adopting methods appropriate to the changed political environment and adopted a strategy to mobilise the Pasmanda with a call to return to Prophet Era which ultimately led to the partition of the sub-continent. In fact all these movements had nothing to with any spiritual elevation of the Pasmanda but for the self-seeking political interest of the Ashraf.

After partition, a large number of Ashraf migrated to Pakistan and left the Pasmanda who played an active and aggressive role in Pakistan movement to their own fate. However, those who stayed back in India instead of mobilising the Pasmanda for national construction programmes revived the movement for their ghettoisation in the name of symbolic and emotive identity politics.

Since then even after over six decades of Independence the Ashraf-driven identity politics never allowed the Pasmanda Muslims to think beyond Uniform Civil Code, Muslim Personal Law, Urdu, Aligarh Muslim University and Babari Mosque. They formulated the strategy of their collective bargaining for fulfilment of grievances on these issues but never tried to raise the issues related to the educational, social and economic development of the Ajlaf and the Arzal.

After independence the two prominent Muslim leaders in India, Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Dr. Zakir Husain ministers in the Nehru cabinet were Ashrafs. They however, did not do any thing for the socio-economic or political empowerment of the Pasmanda Muslims. Even the successive political leaders in various political parties have treated the Pasmanda only as a vote bank without working for their social development or any material compensation to them.

Thus, despite their quest for upward socio-political mobility, the Pasmandas are still entrapped in the cobweb of mosque and madrasa as their job options continue to be limited in India. Some have managed to improve their financial status by taking some jobs even low category ones in the Gulf countries and yet it has not made them less subservient to the Ashrafs.

Even though, the Pasmanda Muslims constitute a larger majority in the community, they are too weak to assert for their emancipation from the Ashrafs. Against the so called alien cultural capital of the Ashraf, they are not in a position to unload the historical baggage of being the descendants of the converts belonging to the various Hindu backward castes and dalits. Leave apart their social equality; the Ashraf-controlled Muslim organizations have hardly done anything even for their educational and economic empowerment. In fact even the state-sponsored benefits are mostly grabbed by the Ashrafs. Unfortunately the Sachchar Committee report has combined the entire Muslim community together and has recommended reservation for them. If such a recommendation is implemented the benefits will again be grabbed by the Ashrafs and will not go to the really deserving marginalised classes of the Muslim community.

The Urdu news papers which are also having the monopoly of the Ashrafs mostly project the Islamic clerics and powerful Muslims of Arabian lineage as the leaders of the community. Since the Clerics are also mostly from the Ashraf class, they do not like the Pasmandas to think beyond mosque, madrasa and Urdu and as a result Pasmandas remain under the siege of the former.

It looks that the Asrafs would prefer to continue to keep the Pasmanda backward! One may ask why? One should look the Maulvis who have the power and the opportunity to have direct contact with the masses the Pasmandas. Instead they are seen to be courting the political leaders ( both mostly Ashrafs) and have developed a common vested interest in keeping the Pasmandas away.

By and large the local Maulwis lack the intellectual ability as they have no knowledge of modern education and that is the reason that they often issue absurd fatwas which become mandatory for the poor and backwards.

Apart from it, even the Pasmanda clerics are in the pay roll of village mosques and madrasas run with funds managed by Ashrafs. Therefore, they do not dare to raise their voice against the latter.

Unfortunately even the Aligarh Muslim University, a leading Muslim centre for modern education is in the grip of the Ashraf-controlled governing body and is not ready to come out of conservative Ashrafism. Pasmanda students do not equal opportunity to gain admission in this modern university.

Asgar Ali Engineer a leading Islamic scholar in an interview has rightly suggested that “Indian Muslims need a leader like B.R.Ambedkar” who fought for the empowerment of Dalits. He further said, “"But unlike Ambedkar, Syed Ahmad Khan was hostile to the interests of the poor. The only people he was concerned about were the Ashraf or so-called 'upper'-caste Muslims, whose interests had been shaken with the advent of the British. And so he set up the Aligarh College to train sons of Ashraf families, strictly keeping out 'low' caste Muslims, so that they could get well-paying jobs in the British administration. I think that Ashraf mentality, a mentality rooted in an extremely feudal culture, is still very deeply-rooted in the psyche of Muslim organizations, especially in the Urdu-Hindi belt [northern India] . “Syed Ahmad Khan himself was, indifferent to the plight of the non-Ashraf poor”. (indianmuslimobserver.com. posted in January 2011).

Instead of sidelining the Islamic priestly class that still commands a visible impact on backward Muslims, the secular governments and their political parties continue to grant funds to such madrasas run by them. Ironically, though a large number of madrassas are funded by the Gulf Dollars and contributed by the Padmanda Muslims, the funds have only strengthened the power of the clergy class and have not improved the financial status or the social upward mobility of the Pasmanda Muslims Instead these funds have been used to perpetuate the division and brainwash the students in every Muslim village on conservative Islam.

Encouraged with the Mandalisation of backward politics, one Ali Anwar dedicated to the cause of emancipation of the Pasmanda Muslims from the neglect and persecution mobilised the Pasmanda Muslims in Bihar and founded a social reform organization known as Pasmanda Muslim Mahaj (Marginalised Muslim Front). Nitish Kumar, the Chief Minister of Bihar, patronised this group which played a vital role in the decisive victory of the NDA in the last Assembly election in the State.

The Ashrafs have already tried to supress the movement and have called the Mahaj as “un-Islamic heretics” .


Pasmanda movement has to succeed and this appears to be the only route for the emancipation of the backward and marginalised Pasmanda communities in India.
brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

Another curious and funny aspect is the claim that "Hindu laws" were made worse by Hindus in the period before 1947. Interestingly - this view is often quoted by historians/judges and sundry other pontiffs. It all is a part of what even in British and American scholarship is now seen as a "Macaulayite" garam-hawa.

Initially when the Anglo reform of Indian personal law started after the First Independence War, they tried to order the existing laws in terms of primitiveness and modernity and placed the EIC Company laws as modern compared to the Hindu and Muslim customary law. These laws were criticized and rubbished because they were not seen as written.

In fact we have William Jones bitterly criticizing the Pundits for being untrustworthy and deceptive because the "Pundits" claim customary law as law which Jones from his newly learned Sanskrit saw as way too different, heterodox and less strict than from what he read in Manusmriti. It was this criticism that Macaulay actually quoted in his infamous parliamentary speech as the need to reform existing Indian law. The result was a formal pressure on the pundits to come up with textual support like Manu's and the customary laws were discarded. There is evidence that those Sanskrit scholars who protested that Manu was not the onlee law for Hindus were ostracized. Manu perhaps provided the great foil on which Macaulay declared was to be sharpened the Anglican Church values inspired civlizing effort.

Scholars also note that the Indian legal reform was an experiment that was not even done in England - and English law at the time failed Macaulay's criteria for being modern and civilized.

We have evidence that because of this strange "reformation" based on textual interpretations of narrow denoimination - customary laws which were often much more liberal and modern based on equally strong tradition [and textual] were rejected and not included. One example is the obvious - Pundit Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar's quotation of Parasara samhita that recognized divorce and annulment by the wife [and not only the husband] on several different clauses - including remarriage of widows. The Brit authorities resisted bringing this in - on excuses that the "community" did not want such a reform.

Laws were supposed to be modernized in both UK and India - for example whipping was not included for adult males in UK and India initially. But this was re-introduced through "reform" for India while left out for UK.

So whose laws were trash actually before 1947? And were Hindus really responsible for that trashiness? But of course research before speaking is only for others I suppose.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Yayavar »

Manusmriti, land title on English law etc. are intentional or unintentional fall out of the British urge to govern through an codified law of the land.

Dowry system and its imperial origins: http://books.google.com/books/about/Dow ... jVgCpc5p4C

On Manusmriti:
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/manda ... ameset.htm

Not to say that there were no fissures in the societ - but that they were exploited and made worse.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Interests

Post by Theo_Fidel »

WRT marriage laws, Christian population as a whole would love to have the laws applicable to Hindus. There are many benefits, esp. for the poor and traditionally discriminated against (read women) that we don't have access to. One is classified as Christian at birth and is stuck with these stupid laws.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Sanku »

SwmayG wrote:I am not sure what you mean by worked for me? Do I get special privileges? Nope.
Yes you do, not by mods though, by other posters, just trust me on this right now. :wink: You have said things and gotten people to talk about it when others saying the same thing have been ripped apart.
As a leader did he steer the country or not is an important question to me. I say he did. Looks like you agree stability was and is important.
And we are saying he did not. He did not steer the country properly or provide necessary stability.
It was also the need of the time to not buckle under pressure to USSR or USA.
But he did, fairly regularly, although he carried out his pretense.
SwamyG wrote: Then I would be one among the first to seek the gyan. If somebody then constructs a for-loop and shows out of 100 policies, how the majority of them implemented by JLN was against the Indian interests, then one can also reach a conclusion he was not a very good leader, visionary or politician. .
SwamyG, do consider that others may have done this exercise multiple times and hence have reached at a particular conclusion. It is not about bashing a individual or glorifying him.

It is about JLNs impact on Indian intrests and how to undo all the massive damages that he has brought about.

devesh wrote:truly, this notion of "enough" non-INC govts to "implement UCC" would be astonishingly funny if not for the sheer lack of reality perception that it shows.....Stan, you definitely are living in a fantasy land.
Seriously boss this is a side of Stan I have never seen before, usually he is very correct and factual in his approach, this time he is so liberally mixing some what fact with massive amount of fiction, that I really worry.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Sanku »

Stan_Savljevic wrote: Under Nehru, Hyderabad (the biggest princely state) was united by force. You dont have to give Nehru the credit, but dont de-chronologize facts. Goa was united by force in 61..
The question is more who was the "doer" or the decision maker, in IGs case, we know that all the decisions (good and bad ones) are hers.

In Nehru's case, he regularly tried to weasel out after his decisions turned awry, and in many cases just hemmed and hawed, till folks around him finally lost patience and went ahead on their own. The cases in which Nehru was bypassed (either passively or actively) as he was looking elsewhere have all turned out fine.

The cases where Nehru actually took his own decisions (although he often washed his hands off them) -- are the cases which are troublesome ones.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Arjun »

All depends on the POV from which one approaches the issue of who gets the Razzies for worst PM...

POV of National Defence & dealing with external threats : Award goes to Nehru
Economy POV : Indira Gandhi
Communalisation of Politics and blatantly communitarian policies : Sonia Gandhi ( lets recognize the actual power rather than who gets the meaningless 'PM' designation). The last is based on Communal Violence Bill, Digvijay's yappings and many others.

Any difference of opinion on the last point ? Any thoughts on whether RG / Nehru / ABV / PVNR have stronger claim as regards last category?
member_20292
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by member_20292 »

Folks, its an ancient theme that
"philosophers should not be kings,
nor kings, philosophers"


Nehru was a philosopher. He may not have had the strategic brutality that characterized a Mao Zedong. But IMO we are all the better off for his fineness and uprightness, than if he were more bloodthirstily self- and thus India- centric.

Imagine if Indira Gandhi was the first PM of India. She would have taken all the other parties to the cleaners so badly that they would never have been a stable functioning multi-party system that there is, now. Nehru did one thing right; he gave us the practise of democracy. Elections were held properly. Question hour was done well. The army was not supercilious. Good habits, all of them.

We're pretty lucky to have had all that. South Korea was quasi communist till 1988, just as Taiwan was.

Its not that easy to manage 330 million people in the absence of records, poverty and illiteracy. Thus Nehru has done well, overall.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Sanku »

mahadevbhu wrote: Nehru was a philosopher.
:lol: Nehru was a social butterfly pretending to be philospher. New Delhi abounds with such.
more bloodthirstily self- and thus India- centric.
He was indeed bloodthirstily self centric. There are thousand deads in various riots and raids and wars which stand testimony to that.

He was not India centric at all, in any case there is 100% conflict between self centrism and India centrism. You can either be one or other, not both.
Imagine if Indira Gandhi was the first PM of India.
A 16 year old girl as PM?

Why limit your imagination? Imagine Subhas Bose was the first PM of India, imagine Sardar Patel was the first PM of India. Imagine Rajendra Babu-ji was the first PM. Imagine any of the first rank congress leaders then as PM. There were better people than Nehru. Much.
Nehru did one thing right; he gave us the practise of democracy.
No other congress leaders did, not Nehru, some of them were bitterly anti-Nehru but were not desperate power hungry megalomaniacs like Nehru would split the country let alone party to hold power.

In fact Nehru walked over any corpse (this is a simili) of a democratic practice which came in the way of his power hunger.
The army was not supercilious.
When has Army been supercilious? What was the chance of that anyway? How is this Nehru's credit?
We're pretty lucky to have had all that. South Korea was quasi communist till 1988, just as Taiwan was.
Huh!! They are American outposts, what a funny comparison. You might have tried comparing with Egypt or Iran to be remotely close. :roll:
Its not that easy to manage 330 million people in the absence of records, poverty and illiteracy. Thus Nehru has done well, overall.
Nehru did not manage 330 million people. GoI did. Nehru was responsible for setting

1) Policies
2) Handling individual emergencies.

As we have seen his policy choices were disastrous.

He was poor in handling emergency situation.

Overall handling of the country took us to a precipice of disintegration. Which was stemmed only by very hard work by others.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by chaanakya »

mahadevbhu wrote:


Nehru was a philosopher.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by RamaY »

Theo_Fidel wrote:WRT marriage laws, Christian population as a whole would love to have the laws applicable to Hindus. There are many benefits, esp. for the poor and traditionally discriminated against (read women) that we don't have access to. One is classified as Christian at birth and is stuck with these stupid laws.
Can you pls elaborate this? TIA
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

"Operation Polo" was launched mainly by Sardar Patel as things were getting from bad to worse in Hyderabad State. You can read Narendra Luther's book on Hyderabad.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Prem »

chaanakya wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:
Nehru was a philosopher. :rotfl: :rotfl:
Philospoher for Foreigners but Fullofsulpher for the main communities of India. He himself declared that his is Muslim by culture and British in temprament then it is only the flight of imagination to assign him any nationalistic fervor or expect him to be a leader with strategic vision.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Sanku »

Prem wrote: Fullofsulpher

This is cool :-)
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

ramana wrote:"Operation Polo" was launched mainly by Sardar Patel as things were getting from bad to worse in Hyderabad State. You can read Narendra Luther's book on Hyderabad.
This is like saying, Nehru denied Patel permission to conduct Op. Polo, yet Patel went ahead and did it unilaterally because he believed this to be the right approach. Any backing up for this kinda logic, where is the data? In any GoI internal bickering, there have always been 2 or 3 camps on what kinda move to take, whether the govt is of Charan Singh's or IG's. Even with fighting the maoists now, there are 2 or 3 camps on what moves to take, some say development, some say fight the oiseaules to the death, some say do a combo, and some disagree on % if %s can be allocated in terms of resources and energy. My opinions on fighting the naxal problem itself has changed more or less from fight the oiseaules completely and then focus on development once the mess is cleared to fight and develop at the same time. This is based on reading people who make informed commentary, such as EN Rammohan, Ajai Sahni, KPS Gill, etc. If you go by ex-DGP Vishwa Ranjan's comments, Chhattisgarh government is bumbling from one disaster to another. I wont still blame it all on the Raman Singh government, but I will attribute some measure of the blame to the CG government. Whether the INC ruled states have co-opted the maoists or otherwise is a very different debatable issue, but fact remains that Chhattisgarh and Jharkhand are at the top of the pyramid in terms of laggards.

Is that logic harder to extrapolate backwards in time? Since you are from a legal background, I am pretty sure you can understand the concept of "precedent." How do you not allow an == between Hyderabad and Junagadh or Manavdar? The Nizam had taken the matter to the UN, Hyderabad was the largest princely state and it was a prized possession for which everyone would have fought. Btw, Narendra Luther is an unimpeachable EJ with considerable connections to Fundacion Vicente Ferrer, you will go with everything he says? I pointed out the same to you sometime back also.

In any case, you can read the ruminations and evolution of the debate on these matters in VPM's tome, including where Nehru stood, where Patel stood, where others who mattered stood, and which point won and what precise reasons that led to its victory. You will also figure out that Patel co-opted Nehru, and Nehru did nt fight to the death cos he had his vanity. There is more material, including Patel's thoughts compiled in Maniben Patel's diary. From her book, you see these kinda remarks:
Both of them were great men by any standard, resolutely patriotic, doggedly brave, tenaciously incorruptible, self-sacrificing through thick and thin, and fired by the pure love of their country.
Now the approach in itself of either person is in debate, Nehru was downright wrong, not the nationalism/patriotism of the debater. Is that so hard to get? That is what is going on here, by moving the goal-post from the issue to the person and then the personality and the character and the attributes, people are making a serious slide towards ideological anarchy dominated by groupthink of one kind in Himalayan proportions. Now you can disagree, but the trend is there for people to see and make their own conclusions. I see a huge slide.

Patel was the Home Minister, he was not doing the diplomazy chai-biskoth with furriners on precedents issue. That was done by JLN, who was also the EAM. Now you can say, why should he be EAM, why not someone else, why take some many jobs. But then there was a decision and he became that, and he is answerable to people esp those who were also pressing him on various other matters including Commonwealth membership, J&K, NAM, china, etc. Even if some other person had become EAM, he/she was going to owe an explanation. There are demarches if things get hot, you can ignore them now, not when India was dependent on the west for food production/setting up institutions/etc. Give the man his due, Nehru was not Grade A in external affairs matters, but he was not a Grade F either. He was somewhere between B to D depending on how you see things in the context of the state-of-affairs in those days based on information available then. You remove away those conditionings and you end up with trashy grading schemes. He was definitely Grade A in building institutions that last even today. He did nt destroy them with all the political baggagery that came later esp under Indira, Morarji, Charan Singh, Rajiv, and beyond.

Indira may have been JLN's daughter, but she was on her own. If you ask me, she is the one to be beaten for destroying India, not Nehru. She was the worst PM we ever had, despite 71, despite standing up to Kiss-ass-inger and Fraudson and calling the bluff of any Enterprise. There are still facts that point to her standing down on a nuke threat if she went ahead in W.Pak and that was one reason why she went express-ly into the smiling buddha. If you dont threaten, nothing happens. If you threaten, even a sparrow becomes a hawk. This is the land of Khalsa. Indira was no different. You cant give her great rewards for being the only man in the cabinet and other self goals. She was street-smart, savvy yet she was vindictive and oiseaulish. These kindsa multi-dimensional opinions are easy to arrive at if you just open your mind and read around instead of believing that she was agmark white cos of Pokharan and 71.

In Nehru's era, there was reasonable internal peace despite the graveness of the Partition (I believe there was just one, independent of all the whines on T-dhaaga, you cant equate the one and only The Partition with petty politics, thats my opinion) and the impact it had on people migrating across the Radcliffe line. The % of people who suffered the Partition misery remains small when compared with people who did nt. Sure, they suffered the most and monumentally (I admit), but is it so hard to estimate numbers here? Was Nehru only responsible to the people who migrated across the Radcliffe line and not to the others who were looking forward to all the attendant garbage of a normal life? You can say what blasphemy, but if you sit in the hot-seat, these are judgment calls you will be forced to make because the resources are limited. Nehru made certain judgment calls and in hindsight, some were right, some were wrong, some were so-so. To whitewash the rights as if they belong to someone else, and to put a heavyduty -20Diopter lens on the wrongs is ridiculous.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by rohitvats »

mahadevbhu wrote:<SNIP> The army was not supercilious <SNIP>
Care to explain how it was because of Nehru and his ilk? I hope you've sound explanation to the above.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by SwamyG »

brihaspati wrote:Your last item is curious. I don;t know why it becomes an obligation on my part to fetch something supposedly positive about JLN. I am more interested in issues that have always bothered me about nations and populations as whole - things like religiously justified atrocities, genocides in general, the humiliation of or sadistic enjoyment of the torment of human dignity, cruelty in all its forms - including imposed poverty.
It goes without saying you are or anybody, for that matter, are free to discuss issues from one or many angles as it interests you. But the exercise/request I urged was to find out if members had considered non-pet angles. What I take is that you have studied JLN but have found no policies that were useful for India. Either it speaks volume on JLN or you.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Rahul M »

stan, wasn't op polo launched when nehru was abroad ? it does appear that it was sardar patel's unilateral decision to some extent, for the control obsessed (and egomaniac, if one might say that) nehru is unlikely to have allowed an event of this magnitude take place without him holding the reigns.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Rahul M, you can make up your own mind on what Nehru was after reading the below.

In a speech at a secret session of the AICC, Bombay, on 16 April 1948, speaking of
the policy on Hyderabad Nehru said,

I would like to assure the AICC that the Government of India are fully alive to the seriousness of the situation developing in Hyderabad State.... If the Nizam's government or the Razakkars take any aggressive action, the Government of India will certainly takes steps to safeguard the interest of the people concerned.
Again speaking at a public meeting, in UthagaMandalam in the far south on 2nd June, 1948 Nehru stated,
We have made it perfectly clear to Hyderabad that there will have to be a solution to this problem and that ultimately there must be accession. There is no other way, and it is not possible for Hyderabad to walk out of the Indian Union. Responsible government is inevitable because in the modern world we cannot allow a feudal government as in Hyderabad to continue.
Writing to Vallabhai Patel on 6th June 1948 Nehru had stated a similar view:
To come back to Hyderabad we have to view Military Action from the point of view of our present capacity as well as from the other consequences flowing from it. These consequences may well be far reaching to various parts of India as well as Pakistan.... I arrived at the conclusion therefore that Military Action should only be indulged in Hyderabad when the Hyderabad government or their Razakkars etc make it impossible for us to desist from it. Of course in such circumstances we have to take action because inaction may produce worse results.
Jawaharlal Nehru also took certain Interim Defence measures. There were instructions to Army commanders round about Hyderabad and to the local government concerned. The instructions were as follows
With the exception of articles of food, salt, medical stores and chlorine for purifying the water supply, all other articles should be denied entry into Hyderabad state and strict blockade should be maintained in regard to these other articles. In the case of any doubtful article, reference
should be made to the Government of India.
...
It is quite clear that Jawaharlal Nehru was keeping Lord Mountbatten informed of the developments regarding the Hyderabad issue. In his letter dated, August 29th 1948, he wrote,
...We have been having a very difficult time here and I have felt more than ever the weight of responsibility that has been cast upon me. Grave decisions have to be made by us and the alternatives between which we have to choose are equally undesirable. Also as often in life, we search frantically for the lesser evil... Hyderabad has been a running sore for a long time, but now it has become an intolerable nuisance or something much worse ...All this leads to the conclusion that some military action must be taken fairly soon and fairly swiftly against Hyderabad, if we are to save a deteriorating situation ...Please rest assured that whatever the provocation, we are not going to declare war against anybody. But we may well have to take
what we call Police Action against Hyderabad State in the near future... we miss you here.
On 10th September 1948, the Nizam appealed to the UNO to intervene. The Government of India was prepared for this move of the Nizam as it is indicated in a letter of Nehru to Vallabhai Patel on 23rd July 1948. He says
You are aware of the fact that there is every chance of Hyderabad State Government referring their dispute with us to the United Nations. We should not wait for this reference and then think about it. We should therefore take immediate steps to prepare our answer and to clear up our own minds as to the attitude we should take. I hope therefore the States Ministry is thinking about this and preparing for it.
In September 1948, the Nizam sent a delegation to the Security Council with a complaint that the situation between Hyderabad and India had become grave and constituted a threat to peace. The delegation left via Karachi. It was now time for decisive action by the Indian Government. On September 10, 1948 Nehru issued an ultimatum, "With great regret we intend to occupy Secunderabad." The same day England evacuated British subjects from Hyderabad to return and ordered all British officers to resign from the Hyderabad Army, so that they will not be forced to fight against an erstwhile British dominion (India).

Jawaharlal Nehru in his letter to V.K.Krishna Menon dated, 29th August, 1948, clearly pointed out that a military action against Hyderabad was becoming a must. He stated thus:

I am convinced that it is impossible to arrive at any solution of the Hyderabad problem by settlement or peaceful negotiation. Military action becomes essential, we call it as you have called it Police Action...The reported reference of the Hyderabad issue to the U.N. produces a certain complication, but that is hardly reason for our holding up any action that would otherwise be justified. There is no point in holding it up because, if the U.N. goes into this matter, it will be a somewhat prolonged affair as it usually is. A prolonged postponement would certainly have very bad results in many ways.
It is interesting to note that Nehru for a long time was reluctant to solve the Hyderabad Problem at one go by Police Action in September 1948. Durga Das, a former editor of the Hindustan Times, narrates in his memoirs titled 'India - from Curzon to Nehru',

There were days of tenseness and high drama in New Delhi particularly in the Cabinet. Pt. Nehru still wanted a peaceful solution, for fear of Pakistan's reaction while Patel was pressing for Police Action soon after Mountbatten left. The hurdle for Patel was removed when Mountbatten who was trying for special status for Hyderabad left on June 22, 1948. After Mountbatten left when Nizam still talked of further agreement, Patel publicly declared, "Agreement has gone to England". Twice Sardar Patel had fixed the Zero Hour for action against Hyderabad and on each occasion he was compelled to cancel it. When the Zero Hour was fixed for the third time (13th Sept) he was determined to see it through and he announced that the army had already moved into Hyderabad and nothing could be done to halt it. Nehru was worried whether it would provoke retaliation by Pakistan.

On September 12th, Jinnah died and Nehru was sure that there would be no interference from Pakistan.

Nehru held a question-answer session at the press conference in New Delhi on 10th September 1948, Three days before the Police action. He followed it with his own statements. One of the most important aspects he stressed was the Razakkar menace.
There is no doubt that the state of affairs in Hyderabad has been very bad and progressively worsening. Any person who does not openly submit to any demands from the Razakkars plays with his life. You might have in mind at least two cases - that of a young Muslim editor of a paper who was shot down; of another young Muslim, you may have noticed, his hands were cut off. So you see the state of affairs in Hyderabad is sinking into a state of barbarity.
In his speech in Bombay on 15th September 1948, Nehru explained that Police Action was initiated to end terror.
Our first year of freedom has seen much sorrow and suffering through out the country. During the critical period, the Father of our Nation was snatched away from our midst leaving us in deep anguish and sorrow....In Hyderabad our army is doing a magnificent job. They are rapidly advancing on all fronts. This is an indication of our strength. I hope the operation will end soon...
25
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Rahul M »

thanks, I would call that conclusive.
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