Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

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Brad Goodman
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

Another of if you dont help us we will take you down article

India & South Asia’s future
The other reason why India has been held back from achieving its ambition is that it is an island of relative stability in a highly restive part of the world. There is an on-going conflict in Pakistan involving the rise of Islamic extremists who are challenging the writ of the state. Thousands of people have perished in the conflict to which there is no end in sight. This conflict has been seen by some as posing an existential threat to the country.
Now did Switzerland progress when Bosnia was burning? I do not understand what can India do in this fight between more pious & less pious abduls. Srilanka Nepal Burma are in turmoil since last 2 decaded what has that changed for India
The militants and terrorists operating from within Pakistan are not only endangering the survival of the Pakistani state. They have also extended their operations beyond the country’s borders as evidenced by the Mumbai attacks in November 2008. More recently, an American citizen of Pakistani descent attempted to set off a car bomb in New York City’s Times Square.
HELLO what were you doing since 1980's in Punjab & Kashmir or even before that in 1950 with all NE based terrorists. You might be living in amnesia we are not.
It should not be tempted to go it alone since it will be continuously distracted by instability and uncertainty all around its borders. But to deal with its neighbours, India will need to cast off part of its old approach and work towards a new strategy aimed at producing a working economic entity in South Asia to which it and its many neighbours are fully committed
So now if you want to be economic power hand us kashmir
Brad Goodman
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

Something for the paki loving news reporter who was impressed with paki infrastructure

Turning Pakistan around
Using 12 indicators of state cohesion and performance, the 2009 Index shows Pakistan ranked as the 10th ‘most’ failed state of the world — with Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Guinea and Central African Republic ranked worse.
I would like to put together a table of Army size of all these failed nations their populations and some other parameters
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by chaanakya »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Those of you wondering about Rehman Malik....don't despair :rotfl:
Zardari pardons Malik, remits prison terms
President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday granted a pardon and remitted two prison terms given to Interior Minister Rehman Malik hours after a Pakistani court dismissed the Minister’s appeal against his conviction in two corruption cases.

Using his constitutional powers, Mr. Zardari remitted the prison terms handed down to Mr. Malik, presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar said.

The pardon was granted under Article 45 of the Constitution on the advice of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani which “was tendered late on Monday night”, Mr. Babar said.

Article 45 of the constitution empowers the President to remit, suspend or commute any sentence passed by a court.

The development occurred late in the night.

Mr. Malik, a close confidant of the President, is out of the country and there were earlier unconfirmed reports that he might not return to Pakistan till the matter of the prison sentence was settled.
A Pardon does not erase the conviction. It spares the prison term for the convicted. SO now TSp will have a convicted criminal as Interior minister.

Last night speaking on Undetv Lungimaster briefly mentioned abt this wondering whom he would meet as his counterpart on his forthcoming visit to TSP. Bakra Datt and Roy did not take the lead on this one and went on to other imp issues like Yindoo terror.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by BijuShet »

Brad Goodman wrote:
Using 12 indicators of state cohesion and performance, the 2009 Index shows Pakistan ranked as the 10th ‘most’ failed state of the world — with Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Guinea and Central African Republic ranked worse.
I would like to put together a table of Army size of all these failed nations their populations and some other parameters
Try these links for your compilations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Somalia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Zimbabwe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Sudan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Chad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_o ... _the_Congo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Guinea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_o ... n_Republic
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Suppiah »

Brad Goodman wrote:Another of if you dont help us we will take you down article

India & South Asia’s future
TSP has as many begging positions as KamaSutra has for intercourse. A select few given here

You better give me because otherwise I will shoot myself
You better give me because otherwise I will spread jihad all over the world
You better give me because otherwise I will disintegrate and flood you with refugees
You better give me because otherwise I will let Taliban takeover the power
You better give me because otherwise I will drag you down through regional averaging

Variations of these themes are there in practically every article, comment, speech from TSP
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by CRamS »

Brad Goodman wrote:Another of if you dont help us we will take you down article

India & South Asia’s future
RAPE after RAPE have been obsessing this part as they have no choice to Gubo before the whites:

It (India) should not be tempted to go it alone since it will be continuously distracted by instability and uncertainty all around its borders.
And adm Jim jones or bob jones or rowdy Holbrooke repeat the lie that TSP faces a "threat" from India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Satya_anveshi »

This youtube video, which was posted earlier by me, is interesting and saying a lot which I am not sure we have digested

1. At about 6.20 onwards, KK is talking about misunderstanding between two groups/parties; he does not want to be involved; clearly the context is Saudi/UAE/Qatar and other Arab funding on the one side; doesn't refer to other group

2. KK makes allegations that Nawaz Sharif apparently ditched Arabs; changes like weather

3. Regards his meetings between Osama and Nawaz faciliated by KK, he talks about presenting evidence if Nawaz challenges; My suspicion is that Sultan Tarrar is the one go-between and is the evidence against Nawaz;

(Karamchand hat on :P - CT Alert) However, I won't be surprised that it may have been Col Imam / Sultan Tarrar who may have kidnapped KK and got him killed; Sultan Tarrar is coming back unharmed and a convenient "victim"

second theory is that ISI's foot soldiers are majority funded by Arabs whereas Military is majority funded/subsidized by US. Matches well with the kind of approaches these regions favor. IMO that is where the faultline is. (/Karamchand hat on - CT Alert)

==added later==

This reconciles with what Ayesha Siddiqa was saying and a tweeter comments from other gentleman - that they are major fissures between some groups within ISI and MI. Just to add, recently it was Hamid Mir who ran a comprehensive report on Nadeem Ijaz of MI who was blamed for everything related to BB's assisination. So, pobviously Hamid Mir does have close relationship with MI (although he implicated its biggest boss at that time).
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 18 May 2010 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by surinder »

Listened on NPR today. They have a program on travelling on the Grand Trunk Road. The reporter is now in Lahore, in today's program. He talks to a many people, all of them RAPES. One person he talks to in the LUMS campus (Lahore Univ. of Mgmnt Sciences). (BTW, What exactly do LUMS graduates manage?). One student said something which shocked me. I mean, I did not know that such a view would be articulated (though I know it is in the thoughts.) A student says that there is a divide in the society in terms of rich and poor. The way to identify rich people is through dress, hari, clothes etc. But most importantly, he said that one can identify rich people by color of skin and hieght. He said rich people are fairer (his words) and also taller. He quickly attributed that to diet. So poorer people are darker and shorter. I was shocked at such insoucient conversation.

By the way, he did not mention that pathaans are taller and fairer than pakjabis, how come they are not richer?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Carl_T »

Yes, I believe that skin color/hair color actually is lighter in some of the more remote and backward areas outside of Pakjab in TSP like Baloch, Bannu etc. But within Pakjabi society, I don't think he is entirely incorrect..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by CRamS »

SSridhar:

Good points. Even today, this pompous moral zeal among Indian elite shows. Witness Arundathi Roy grind her teeth as she disses India's inequity. And its also bogus, its meant to impress. I've seen many-a-Indian-elite in US act more secular than they need to be, act more American than they need to be, show their "anti-caste" egalitarianism by dissing their Hindu heritage, showing how much more feminist they are than femi Nazis themselevs etc. All this as Richrad Crasta brilliantly explains is to "impress the whites". Now Americans, being pragmatic to the core, could care two hoots for this moralistic mumbo jumbo. They will be the first ones to cast aside any principle if it is in their interests and ignore SDREs with the contempt they deserve. The poor SDREs are left in the lurch as we are seeing today. So much wisdom in the adadge that you must first like yourself befroe others like you :-). Hopefully, next generation of SDREs, if we have a genuine Indian natonalist leadership instead of a "South Asian" leadership in power in Delhi that is, will learn to first take of their interests before worrying about universal peace and morality.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Rupesh »

Bomb blast kills 12 in Dera Ismail Khan
“We have received 12 dead bodies and 10 injured,” said Doctor Nasir Malik Akhtar, head of the casualty department at Dera Ismail Khan hospital, where he said medical staff had declared a state of emergency to cope with the victims.

Three policemen, including an officer named Iqbal Khan who led a particularly active drive against the Taliban, were killed in the attack.
“Iqbal Khan was so active against the Taliban. We planted that bomb and claim responsibility for this attack,” Azam Tariq, the main spokesman for Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) told AFP by telephone.

“We will target all such people. These sorts of policemen are on our hit list,” he said, speaking from an undisclosed location.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by BijuShet »

surinder wrote:Listened on NPR today. They have a program on travelling on the Grand Trunk Road. The reporter is now in Lahore, in today's program. He talks to a many people, all of them RAPES. ..
Links to this radio program
Link : http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... t=1&f=1004

Route Map : Map http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... t=1&f=1004

Pics: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... t=1&f=1004

Archive Page : http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/grand_trunk_road/

Small Sample: Morning Edition : In Pakistan, A Young Maid's Short Life, Tragic Death
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by sum »

TSP has as many begging positions as KamaSutra has for intercourse. A select few given here

You better give me because otherwise I will shoot myself
You better give me because otherwise I will spread jihad all over the world
You better give me because otherwise I will disintegrate and flood you with refugees
You better give me because otherwise I will let Taliban takeover the power
You better give me because otherwise I will drag you down through regional averaging

Variations of these themes are there in practically every article, comment, speech from TSP
:rotfl: :rotfl:
True keeper of a post. Will freely reproduce this gyaan in all my Paki related discussions with friends..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by shiv »

Brad Goodman wrote:
shiv wrote:The rich elite of Pakistan successfully did what they accuse the "Brahminbania nexus" in India of doing. they have set aside their mango Abduls and made them invisible, and what is visible to the visitors in Pakistan is the opulence and smartness of the RAPE.
Shiv ji what is the reason that western elites (read unkil & UQ here) are so impressed with pakis both civilian & gernails. I mean for all practical purposes nehru was no different than paki rapes still Dulles was fuming at nehru and was praising ayub. Is it the deep entrenched hatered that practicing christians ( of all variety) carry towards pagans and some level of tolerance towards people of book or is it that indians are too obtuse & stingy when it comes to dealing with western audience like parties & gifts than pakis, or is it that pakis are more docile and subservient to their cause and that is what makes the relationship more praiseworthy. Please let us know your thoughts. Also I have not read Strobe Talbott's book except for some excerpts in websites and newspapers but if some one who has read it shed more light on the topic that would be appreciated.
I think Arun Gupta has said it well.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 93#p873593

I am certain that there has been a historic (pre-independence) disgust for the pagans and their "horrendous practices" with no effort (or need) to understand them in the context of Indian society.

It is very likely that there was cross pollination from Islamic scholars to the Brits. For examples I am now trying to plough through Al Beruni's "India". Al Beruni is not kind to Hindus. It is hardly a "neutral" study. But you need to see that Hindu works were translated to Arabic and many of those Arabic works were later translated to Latin and other European languages. Even "Aesop's Fables" are the Panchatantra that went to Europe via an Arabic translation. So European scholars who read available literature on India were surely influenced by the Arab views on the dirty kafirs. Europe itself was in awe of "Arab astronomy" and "Arab math" with no recognition or acknowledgement in those days of Indian inputs to Arab science which are now well documented.

So you can be certain that all the Arab-Islamic prejudices about Hindus were transferred wholesale to British scholars. History then seemed to fit in perfectly well. The Inferior pagan races were subjugated by the Islamic empire, but the pre-Eminent British empire then supercede and replaced the Islamic empire. There was a clear hierarchy here - the very same hierarchy that the Pakis claim today.

Add this inbuilt suspicion of Hindus to the wily political games of the "Hindu political parties", and combine that with the docile servility and apolitical nature of the peoples of the North West of India and then you can see how the likes of Rudyard Kipling were convinced that the fairer complexioned meat eating mussalmaans of the North West were a better people than the wily dark Hindoos. All through my childhood and into my young adulthood days, when the West was much more pious and more "Christian" there was a suspicion and fear of the sort of icons represented by Hinduism. That fear has been expressed very well in some movies. " A passage to India" is one and "Indian Jones and the temple of Doom" is another.

Pakis made full use of this suspicion apart from a history of willingness to serve Western interests. Jinnah's willingness for Pakistan to be a tool for Britain is on record in Sarila's book, and the alacrity with which Pakistan jumped into alliances with the US added to their reputation. But to be loved by the firangis of the US, it s not enough to merely love them, you need to live like them and show a taste for what they like. "Talking their language" goes far beyond a knowledge of English. You have to become American. The Paki RAPE did that well. Indians never managed that and mostly did not want to do that. The Pakis believed they were a superior race an believed that the West too were a superior race and that they would get along well. And they certainly did.

So the modern American love of Pakis extends to piskological factors that go back to Al Beruni's days. Long before America or Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by surinder »

There can be simpler explanations of this phenomena. The imperialiassm model of the Amir Khans calls for strong ruthless leaders in small nations who can suppress their people and themselves become clients to do the bidding of their Khanate masters. The rulers of such nations need to be not encumbered by any democratic process, nor are they to be too sensitive to the real needs of their country men. The rulers must also not become too big for their shoes either, they must be dependent on the Khan for their existence. Nations that satisfy such needs become clients nations. Likability, religion-inspired or otherwise, plays little part in it.

TSP fits that description perfectly. India does not, and cannot. KSA also fits that bill, but current day Iraan does not.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Amber G. »

Looks like the failed bomber Pakistani Shahzad had Rockefeller Center, Grand Central Terminal, the World Financial Center across from Ground Zero and Connecticut defense contractor Sikorsky on his hit list ...
Report: Shahzad had Sikorsky as target
the date and time -- a Saturday at 6:30 p.m. -- was selected because Shahzad watched streaming video from Times Square and determined that was when it was most crowded.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by svenkat »

India can become a rival to US in economic and soft power influence over a wide swathe in Asia.This will upset the status quo and unchallenged american domination of today.

So India has to be contained and kept in check by pigstan so that a potential rival in Asia which can build economies of scale and compete with US in access to energy reserves in Central Asia is in fetters .This is the strongest american motive today.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by chetak »

Pardon, but I think this is worth posting in full.

While we will stupidly follow a "secular" foreign policy ad nauseam, just take a gander at what our dear neighbor is really up to.

The chinese have also been in the very same game with the saudis since a very long time.

This is our "interlocutor" as per that twit tharoor.

Nice that he has been interlocuted himself.


http://www.livemint.com/2009/06/2422152 ... -Nars.html
Posted: Wed, Jun 24 2009. 10:15 PM IST

Pakistan’s growing N-arsenal

Nitin Pai

Why is Pakistan—a country teetering on the brink of breakdown and heavily dependent on the international community for life support—not only increasing its stockpile of fissile material for nuclear weapons, but also expanding its capacity to produce more? The reflexive answer usually is: because of India. Now, there is little doubt that Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is India-centric, but this by itself does not completely explain Pakistan’s behaviour. Understanding Pakistan’s nuclear expansion will be incomplete without accounting its participation in the West Asian arms race and its insecurities arising from Washington’s involvement in its nuclear affairs.

First, the Pakistani military establishment knows from its experiences of the 1999 Kargil war, the 2002 military stand-off and the events following the terrorist attacks on Mumbai last November that its existing nuclear deterrent works. The gravest Pakistani provocation is routinely reciprocated by Indian restraint. Indeed, were it not for Pakistan’s unwillingness to abandon the use of terrorism as an instrument of its policy towards India, it is evident that nuclear weapons would nearly eliminate all risk of war between the two countries.

Second, it is implicit in India’s nuclear doctrine—no first use, with a minimum credible deterrent—that it does not matter greatly to New Delhi whether Pakistan has 60 warheads or 120. Even if Pakistan’s nuclear guardians distrust mere words, they cannot be entirely oblivious to the fact that, despite having the means to do so, India has not invested in a single new nuclear reprocessing plant—which would increase India’s capacity to build warheads—over the last decade.

Also, while the India-US nuclear deal enables New Delhi to expand its civilian nuclear power generation capacity, without new reprocessing plants, it constrains the number of warheads India can produce. Under the terms of the deal, India agreed to the separation of its civilian and military facilities. It also agreed to prematurely close down the weapons-related CIRUS research reactor near Mumbai by 2010; as of date, India has not even announced plans for a replacement.

Third, up until 26/11, India and Pakistan were engaged in a peace process: not quite the conditions for Pakistan to seek a quantum leap in its nuclear arsenal.


At the margin, therefore, more warheads do not provide more security for Pakistan vis-à-vis India. So, an analysis of Pakistan’s motives must consider alternative explanations.

Bruce Riedel, who chaired US President Barack Obama’s policy review for Afghanistan-Pakistan, points out in a recent essay in The Wall Street Journal that there have been “persistent reports of some kind of understanding between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for Islamabad to provide nuclear weapons to Riyadh if the Saudis feel threatened by a third party with nuclear weapons.” And although they both deny a secret deal, “rumours of one continue to surface as Iran gets closer to developing its own bomb”.

British journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark, citing former senior US and Pakistani officials, write that the Saudis wanted the “finished product, to stash away in an emergency, and Pakistan agreed to supply it in return for many hundreds of millions of dollars”. Pakistan also brokered the transfer of the nuclear-capable CSS-2 missiles from China to Saudi Arabia in the late 1980s.

As Iran gets closer to building a nuclear arsenal, Saudi Arabia—the Iranian Shia theocracy’s geopolitical and ideological rival—is likely to seek a nuclear balance across the Persian Gulf. Using Pakistan to hold its arsenal in trust allows Saudi Arabia to stay clear of violating its non-proliferation commitments. Now, even if Pakistan’s own insecurities with respect to its eastern neighbour are kept out of the calculation, Iran’s nuclearization suggests that Pakistan will have to build additional capacity for its Saudi Arabian partner. In other words, Pakistan is in a nuclear arms race all right—but it’s probably a West Asian one.

There is another angle: After 9/11, the US took steps to “secure” Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal to prevent its unauthorized use. The military establishment fears that its arsenal is compromised by US supervision and potential plans to snatch it. Pakistani leaders believe that nuclear weapons are their ultimate insurance policy. Therefore, the army is likely to protect its nuclear autonomy by building a second, more secret arsenal. The US Congressional Research Service reports that Pakistan has indeed developed such an arsenal although it is described as a “second strike capability” against India. Because of their inability to fully secure Pakistan’s arsenal, US efforts might have paradoxically increased proliferation risks.

Persuading Pakistan to halt the expansion of its nuclear weapons programme requires both the US and China to change their ways. Money is fungible—it is untenable to argue that US taxpayers are not financing Pakistan’s bomb: US cash going to Islamabad, even if not targeted for military use, only frees up Pakistan’s other resources for nuclear weapons. Washington must then tie its aid to Pakistan freezing further capacity addition. Unless the US shows that it is serious about the matter, how can it expect to get China to stop selling nuclear technology to Pakistan?

Nitin Pai is editor of Pragati—The Indian National Interest Review, a publication on strategic affairs, public policy and governance.

And

The chinese hand.


http://geimint.blogspot.com/2009/02/sau ... force.html
Tuesday, February 10, 2009
Saudi Arabia's Ballistic Missile Force
INTRODUCTION

One of the most overlooked military arsenals in the Middle East is the Saudi Arabian ballistic missile force. The presence of this capability, in context with the specific weapon system employed, raises a number of significant questions about the potential nuclear ambitions of Saudi Arabia. Analysis of currently available imagery also suggests that ballistic missiles are not a capability which Saudi Arabia will be seeking to divest itself of at any point in the near future.

THE SAUDI MISSILE FORCE

At some point in the mid 1980's, Saudi Arabia chose to pursue a ballistic missile force. Friendly Islamic nations such as Pakistan did not possess a significant ballistic missile program at this time, nor did North Korea. The only other nation producing ballistic missiles which would have been amenable to an export was China. Towards the end of the 1980's China agreed to develop a conventionally-armed ballistic missile for export to the Saudis. The weapon chosen for modification was the DF-3A (CSS-2) IRBM, a nuclear-tipped weapon already in service with the Chinese military for well over a decade.

The first weapons were delivered to Saudi Arabia in 1988, and it is not known precisely how many were purchased. Sources provide varying estimates, ranging from between 30 missiles and 9 launchers to 120 missiles and 12 launchers. Identified DF-3A associated facilities inside of Saudi Arabia suggest that the number may well be far closer to the latter estimate; two facilities have been positively identified, each housing two garrisons and various support and storage facilities. These facilities are Al Joffer and Al Sulayyil, approximately 90 and 450 km southwest of Riyadh, respectively. The locations of these facilities, as well as two other facilities which may be related to the Saudi Arabian ballistic missile force and will be described later, can be seen in the image below:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by ramana »

svenkat wrote:India can become a rival to US in economic and soft power influence over a wide swathe in Asia.This will upset the status quo and unchallenged american domination of today.

So India has to be contained and kept in check by pigstan so that a potential rival in Asia which can build economies of scale and compete with US in access to energy reserves in Central Asia is in fetters .This is the strongest american motive today.
Currently Indian state is quite acceptable with this containment. Its like a tiger cub, already psyched into thinking its a sheep/lamb, being contained by a mongrel.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Karna_A »

I'd like to extend the same question to other resident gurus also..
why such an inclination towards Pakis?
Very simplistically TSP can be compared to a Hotdog that is cheap, easy to get and provides short term fulfillment in every sense!, but has potential cancer and other diseases associated with it.
India however can be compared to organic Broccoli: Expensive, rare(not easy to get) and better for long term health and is even anti-cancer.
US election cycles are every 2 years and for fast results they depend on their Hotdog.

Its only during the 2nd term of a President when President can take a reflective and long term view of history that the benefits of Indian friendship come over the horizon.

The inclination towards TSP will stop the day when all Hotdog stands in New York change into Broccoli stands.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by archan »

CRamS wrote:SSridhar:

Good points. Even today, this pompous moral zeal among Indian elite shows. Witness Arundathi Roy grind her teeth as she disses India's inequity. .
So you consider Arundhati Roy as an Indian elite. What qualities does one need to have to be considered 31337, err, elite?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

As promised. I have compiled data for top 10 failed states. I am not terribly excited with the data since it does not develop any great pattern for study and that is because there is no trend develping that can point to root cause of failures. The list makes sense for all African countries they have the same issue which is civil war. Actually 9/10 countries have some form of civil war going on the only exception is you guessed it porkies

Of all countries Iraq & Zimbabwe have some hopes of making it out of the list the others seem to be desitined to be lying there till they become dust.

Top Failed States

1)Somalia
2)Zimbabwe
3)Sudan
4)Chad
5)Congo
6)Iraq
7)Afghanistan
8-)Guinea
9)Central African Republic
10)Pakistan

-----------------------------------------
1) Somalia:
Population 9,832,017,
country comparison to the world: 83

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$5.731 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 155

Military expenditures:
0.9% of GDP (2005 est.)
country comparison to the world: 143
------------------------------------------------

2) Zimbabwe
Population: 11,392,629
country comparison to the world: 73

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$332 million (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 211

Military expenditures:
3.8% of GDP (2006)
country comparison to the world: 35
-------------------------------------------------

3) Sudan
Population:
41,087,825 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 29

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$92.81 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 71

Military expenditures:
3% of GDP (2005 est.)
country comparison to the world: 51
----------------------------------------------

4) Chad
Population:
10,329,208 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 79

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$16.26 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 131

Military expenditures:
4.2% of GDP (2006)
country comparison to the world: 27
-----------------------------------------------

5)Congo
Population:
68,692,542
country comparison to the world: 18

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$21.33 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 119

Military expenditures:
2.5% of GDP (2006)
country comparison to the world: 65

----------------------------------------------
6) Iraq
Population:
28,945,569 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 40

Population:
28,945,569 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 40

Military expenditures:
8.6% of GDP (2006)
country comparison to the world: 4
----------------------------------------------

7) Afghanistan
Population:
28,395,716 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 43

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$23.35 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 113

Military expenditures:
1.9% of GDP (2006 est.)
country comparison to the world: 84
----------------------------------------------

8-) Guinea
Population:
10,057,975 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 81

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$10.48 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 145

Military expenditures:
1.7% of GDP (2006)
country comparison to the world: 97
--------------------------------------------

9) Central African Republic
Population:
4,511,488
country comparison to the world: 120


GDP (purchasing power parity):
$3.327 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 169

Military expenditures:
1.1% of GDP (2006 est.)
country comparison to the world: 133
-------------------------------------------
10) Porkistan
Population:
174,578,558 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 6

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$449.3 billion (2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 28

Military expenditures:
3% of GDP (2007 est.)
country comparison to the world: 52
--------------------------------------------

There are total 173 countries in the world today.

Top 5 countries ranked by their spending as % of GDP on Defence are all practice religion of peace. All 5 are in Middle East. If you expand it to top 25 you are still with 80% ROP countries in there. Pakis should be ranked some where between 11 & 15 their current rank of 52 does not justify the reality because they fudge their defence figures. Example Pensions are not counted in defence budget similarly paramilitary and ISI are seperate. Army itself is not subject to any financial audit.

FYI. India is ranked 66 at 2.5% of GDP. Iceland is ranked last 0% of GDP. Unkil is 28 with 4.06%


The analysis I thought to get to was that most of these countries are very small. So according to unkils school of thought they are not too big to fail. Their ability to create nusience is pretty minimal. Except Porkies & Iraq most are at the bottom of the heap in terms of both population & Economy and neither spend a hell of a lot on their military. Suprised to see Iraqs figures but then it was a military state and they did not fudge their figures.

So of all top 10 failed states the only country whose failure really can affect the world is Pakis. So now you have two school of thoughts here

A) Follow unkil's model of AIG & Citi where you decide not to allow laws of nature (market) take their natural course you keep extending unlimited line of Credit to these guys so that they can escape the hole and then they can get back to their old habbits. Another analogy could be of a drug addict who is on and off rehab.

B ) Break them to managable size so that even if they do down hill their ability to create nuisence is dimininshed. This is definately on cards for Iraq in near future. The only reason this is being avoided is to not change regional paradigms. Example with Iraq going down Iran becomes stronger and challenges ME areana for KSA & Unkil. With Porkies going down there is no check on India and Unkil loses a big pwan on its chess board that can not just be used against India but also Iran C Asia. Now hold your breath against China yes as we all know for dollars pakis can sell their mothers then taller than mountain friend is no big deal. You might still see Peshawar airbase being used to fly over xianxiang and new gen of jihadis planning greater Khurasan which is also incidentally ALQ dream. Unkil wants half million strong mercenary army ready to do their dirty job for peanuts & H&D massage
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

Coming back to the topic of Nato's hate for India and love for Pakis. Here is a short compilation of my understanding based on great insight provided by all gurus

1) Deeply religious western leaders have a deep rooted hatered for pagans who are yet to accept Jesus as the messiah. Muslims are better because they already accept Jesus as one of the messiah. Now here these guys dont understand that ROP says bible is corrupted and that is why Pbuh came to re-correct the draft. This might have been true in 50's and 60's but there is no evidence that this is true in present times.

2) Nehru's over idealism with Non Aligned Movement and subsequent Indian leaders being more interested in being morally correct than realist's. While Nehru was not taling sides his daughter Indira set nixon's private parts on fire with her bangla desh plan and peace treaty with soviets. Exception to this rule was PVN Rao. Again this factor has disappeared with collapse of Soviet Union

3) Playing middle ground between IM appeasement by palestine cause and keeping hands off Israel till 1990's when Egypt & Turkey had full relations with Israel. Taken care of with recognition of Israel.

4) Not agreeing to be a rentier state in cold war and trying to forge an independent path which did not fit in their cold war calculations. Still valid thought BJP did offer airbases after 9/11 also Indian ports were used duing the 1st Deasert Storm operations and subsequent WOT operations by allies

5) Fiddling with democracy and actually succeeding in it which was a system only supposed to be perfected by superior white races. Plus that makes decision making process very slow and frustrating for ministers and bureaucrats of NATO countries who are expecting slavish attitude from poor countries. First half of argument might not be true in present times but the second part still holds true.

6) Avoiding Aid as much as possible. Not allowing foreign NGO and Missionaries a free hand. Holds true in present times.

7) Unkils political landscape is pretty heavily occpied by folks with military background. When you compare it with India or UK the contrast stands out so you see these secreteries as well as presidents connect easily with paki jernails where they can share whiskey over real / imaginary military victories or what ever gay exploits they had in academy. Contrast that with poker faced PM's of India most of whom were 70+ and has no interesting stories to share so there was no person to person bonding. Holds true in todays times. Colin Powel - Mushy jernal to jernail talks.
Last edited by Brad Goodman on 19 May 2010 06:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by BijuShet »

An interesting book link from Scribd. (can be read for free on site but for free pdf download and print you need a scribd or facebook id )
Who Owns Pakistan - Shahid-ur-Rahman
Gives a good history of TSP and how the 22 robber baron families have stolen/accumalated power and wealth from their fellow TSPians. This book is dated from 1997 but still has good data on each family and their asset values.

Shahid-Ur Rehman also wrote Long road to Chagai but there are no easily available pdf version of this book. The paperback version is available in many US college libraries.

Found another interesting book Pakistan Expanding Dera Ghazi Khan Nuclear Site: Time for U.S. to Call for Limits By David Albright, Paul Brannan, and Robert Kelley - May 19, 2009. This is from a year agao but has satelite pics of the expanded activity at Dera Ghazi Khan Nuclear Site and Gagan with his google earth skills can provide a more recent pic of the same sites.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Carl_T »

Not really, if anything Islam is as alien and reviled much more than "pagan" faiths. Nothing about the US is monolithic. "Hatred against pagans" shows up in the religious right in the US, yet the religious right is the one that considers Islam to be a corruption of the Gospel. Yet then do explain why Bush was friendlier to India than Obama? Are Obama/Hillary or their political brains Axelrod/Rahm "deeply religious" western leaders? Or are Obama/Hillary closet christian fundamentalists? Why has Japan been a prominent US ally despite being a "pagan" nation?

Rather than projecting British opinions onto US policy IMO it is better to think about them in political-ideological ways rather than religious or racial. The US will magically find cultural commonality with alien groups if they are western friendly and support a common cause. There are two criteria: the US likes regimes that are "westernized", led by western educated elite and professing the ideals that the US likes to hear. The second criterion is that the regime has to be totally US friendly consistently. Why is Yushchenko loved in the US media and Yanukovich reviled?
A_Gupta wrote:
But this US tilt began in the early 1950s. And e.g., think of Dulles, Chuck Yeager and n others like them.
I think this has to do much more with Nehru being a irritant to the US, whereas TSP was GUBOing from the start. Not to mention Nehru being a socialist who was enthralled by the Soviets, that could not have endeared him to the US.

IMO, it is not correct to use political opinions developed in the 50s as the rationale for modern behavior led by a different set of Americans. However I think you are right in saying they play a role - I believe the role these opinions play is in creating the initial institutional attitude towards India. That combined with the effects of institutional inertia is the sustainer.

Another latent assumption we make is that the US look at India as an equal, whereas the US will never look at India as an equal the way it will look at Russia.
Venkarl wrote:
Right sir..I agree that loyalty should not go unnoticed and be rewarded...but it makes me think that if the same loyal land has grown up wild producing jihadis{that too anti US} and is threatening the entire US operation of restoring a functional govt in Afghanistan, the USA's mainland, embassies and bases....any rounded sane personality in US admin. would grill Paki's freedom of begging..but thats not happening...Hillary said of very serious consequences and Mullen rolls back it :roll: ....so much of inconsistency, contradiction and deliberate support to Pakistan no matter what...is there any glaring reason which isn't visible?

Venkat
Venkarl ji what else would the US do? The US is not invading TSP anytime soon. All I can think is the US makes a deal with TSP - we'll give you F-16s and money, and you don't send any jihadis over.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Venkarl »

who ji? me no ji Carl...just learning from you senior folks.....while I agree with other BRFites' views that the old heads in US/UK and Europe still delve in racial/pagan/cultural stuff and applies such influence on people from east..

..but during the modern times..I think..its about "whats in it for me?" kinda mentality prevails most administrations of developed nations' foreign policies...these nations' Govts have become like corporate houses...exactly on the lines of what Woodrow Wilson said that Govt in action should make its business less unbusinesslike...I initially wanted to elicit that aspect of material gain to US by helping Pakistan deliberately{ in my long "is it about..?" questions} along with Brad Goodman's query of cultural differences bet us and white nations...I sometimes feel that apart from this cultural or material gain stuff....Pakistan has become a liability to Western nations for involving pakis in their war on terror and can't get rid of them as they are neck deep already....:)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Brad Goodman »

A scary insight into paki brains

Cold Start doctrine
Lacking territorial depth and with one probable objective area of incursion in the Cold Start as Reti-Rahim Yar Khan Kashmore complex (Dawn, Feb 8 ), a north-south split occurring is one possible assumption. Pre-emption aside, in the event of penetration by IBG should Pakistan’s response be restricted only to the use of low yield tactical warheads; do we have other choices? Answer to this becomes crucial given the fact that Indian nuclear doctrine is unambiguous in asserting that even a small tactical weapon will invite massive retaliatory strike.
Pakis talk about nuke war as if it is childs play. I dont know if some peace institute has ever done any research into the war mongering of pakis
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Philip »

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/17/AR2010051703624.html

CIA director, national security adviser to meet with officials in Pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Prem »

Obama sends top aides to Pakistan over NY plot

WASHINGTON: US President Barack Obama has dispatched two of his most senior national security aides to Pakistan in the wake of the failed Times Square car bombing, a White House official said Tuesday.
US national security advisor General James Jones and CIA Director Leon Panetta have left on a mission to investigate the May 1 bomb plot, which has been blamed on the Pakistani Taliban.“In light of the failed Times Square terrorist attack and other terrorist attacks that trace to the border region, we believe that it is time to redouble our efforts with our allies in Pakistan to close this safe haven and create an environment where we and the Pakistani people can lead safe and productive lives,” ( But Sir, this the product of productive Pakistan) a White House official told AFP.
“The US and Pakistan have a robust bilateral relationship based on shared interests. We are in frequent contact and this is one of many senior-level engagements that occur,” the official added.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... plot-ss-07
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by ramana »

Brad There are umpteen approving articles in Western professional journals about the tactical brilliance of TSPA and their nukes. Its the approval that makes them more belligerent.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by archan »

Pakis know for sure that their esteemed military won't be able to stand too long against the Indians, be it the army, navy (whatever of that they have) or the air force. If there is a conventional war, they will have to somehow get a quick ceasefire after making some initial gains somehow or have to use their nukes. They know for sure that once they use theirs, India will literally dump its arsenal on them. They also know that the India has more to lose than their pathetic nation does, hence all their bravado.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by shynee »

Hafiz Saeed faces life threat from Taliban: PHD
LAWHORE: Hafiz Saeed, chief of the defunct Jamaat ud Dawa, is facing a life threat from Taliban, Punjab’s Home Department said Tuesday.

It said the banned Tehrik Taliban Pakistan (TTP) is planning to kill Hafiz Saeed.

According to the PHD, suspicious activities have been witnessed around Saeed’s home.

However, the provincial home department has directed all concerned departments to step up security of JuD chief.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

IMO, it is not correct to use political opinions developed in the 50s as the rationale for modern behavior led by a different set of Americans.
Agreed, but I thought the question was about a history of these opinions. With Indians or people of Indian origin increasingly being successful, the attitude is changing; but slowly.

BTW, I do not know why Bush decided to do a nuclear deal with India; but to any objective observer, the US was violating its own treaty obligations by doing so. Bush however did not feel constrained by any treaty, and did as he pleased.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by Suppiah »

sum wrote: Will freely reproduce this gyaan in all my Paki related discussions with friends..
You are most welcome...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Faisal Shahzad Arraigned on Terror Charges

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... arraigned/
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by shiv »

1) Somalia:
Population 9,832,017,
country comparison to the world: 83

2) Zimbabwe
Population: 11,392,629
country comparison to the world: 73

3) Sudan
Population:
41,087,825 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 29

4) Chad
Population:
10,329,208 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 79

5)Congo
Population:
68,692,542
country comparison to the world: 18

6) Iraq
Population:
28,945,569 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 40

7) Afghanistan
Population:
28,395,716 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 43

8-) Guinea
Population:
10,057,975 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 81

9) Central African Republic
Population:
4,511,488
country comparison to the world: 120
Total population of Top 10: 201,852,340


10) Porkistan
Population:
174,578,558 (July 2009 est.)
country comparison to the world: 6
Population of PAKISTAN alone.. 174,578,558

Pakistan houses about half the world's population of people in failed states.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Pakistan's India obsession

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201 ... _obsession
Kayani is certainly a step up from his predecessor Pervez Musharraf, and was recently described to me by one former U.S. official as "the most reality-based Pakistan general" ever to visit Washington, but the lack of strategic thought on display here is quite amazing. Here you've got an impoverished, dysfunctional country next door to one of the most dynamic economies on Earth, and it can't imagine a paradigm in which India is an economic partner and an ally, not a threat. Convincing Pakistan to set aside its traditional paranoia about its larger, more successful neighbor has got to be one of the top priorities of U.S. foreign policy for years to come.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by shiv »

Brad Goodman wrote: 1) Deeply religious western leaders have a deep rooted hatered for pagans who are yet to accept Jesus as the messiah. Muslims are better because they already accept Jesus as one of the messiah. Now here these guys dont understand that ROP says bible is corrupted and that is why Pbuh came to re-correct the draft. This might have been true in 50's and 60's but there is no evidence that this is true in present times.
Please. I must modify this. I don't think the suspicion of Indians/Hindus is as blatant and clear a case of religion based discrimination as this. It is important to understand that open religious discrimination is only a minor part of the problem. There is some deeper piskology here that I will try and explain - because that deeper piskology makes the plain vanilla "religious discrimination" idea seem stupid and simplistic.

You need to look at how a society is taught to view "that which is to be feared" and "that which is evil". Typically it's the children who are taught all this, by adults in homes and schools from knowledge that the adults were taught when they were impressionable kids. In the past, a predominantly Christian society such as one finds in Europe has had people define evil in terms of the devil and the worship of false gods, and "dark forces", and the worship of graven images. Most people who did those things in the world were eliminated by Christianity and Islam - or so it was believed until the West actually came to India. All the practices that were considered evil were open and visible in India and were seen with suspicion. But this refers to the 17th to 19th and early 20th centuries.

In modern Western societies religious discrimination is looked at with the same attitude as discrimination against gays. But the mental images of what is evil and what is not evil remain because the images of "grotesque" multi-armed false gods are all deeply rooted civilizational images of what is evil. A Hindu who is a RAPE equivalent is thought to be the "modern" Hindu. You only have to be in any one of hundreds of ordinary Hindu temple on any given day to see a flower bedecked "graven image" of a multi-armed goddess being worshipped in a ritual that ends in extremely loud drum beating, chanting and conch-shell blowing. A Hindu who practices ordinary day to day Hinduism such as taking part in that temple ritual - would spark off he same deep fears of evil and make someone ask an Indian "You're not like that are you". This is less about "Christianity" and more about how "evil" is defined in the psyche of people who have grown up in a civilization with a Christian ethos/background. Blaming religion directly would be a bogey. IMHO
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote
A Hindu who practices ordinary day to day Hinduism such as taking part in that temple ritual - would spark off he same deep fears of evil and make someone ask an Indian "You're not like that are you". This is less about "Christianity" and more about how "evil" is defined in the psyche of people who have grown up in a civilization with a Christian ethos/background. Blaming religion directly would be a bogey. IMHO
Whatever I wrote, this is the meaning I wanted to convey, but couldn't. Thanks, Shiv!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

A procession of robed priests adorned with outre headgear threatening fire and destruction on followers, condemning them as sinners while exhorting them to repent and finishing by feasting upon the blood and flesh of their god is what? Divine? Or abhorrent?

Thus the multiarmed gods are only conditioned to arouse disgust in the morosely monotheistic. There is nothing inherent in these graven images that need incite hatred.
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