J & K news and discussion

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krisna
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

sort of wicked amusement here. :rotfl: reading the some of the posters ramblings.

the issue concerned is flying the tiranga. This is a matter of pride and honour for Indians. The day is jan 26.
venue is lal chowk. This is the separatist hot bed of activity.
Some of the posters have identified themselves completely in the political party mould . This strong identification has made them lose THE INDIAN IDENTITY. :oops:

Due to this strong identification they are unable to respond rationally in thinking or behaviour. Anything against the party official line is condemned. The free thinking which is a must for an individual in a democratic set up is lost due to the fascist adherence to party ideology.
Solution is changing the program- I mean changing the belief system of the individuals which is possible but requires efforts. By this the person can stick to the party but has independence of mind and thinks rationally.
India require free spirited individuals who stick to their parties which is commendable but not lose sight of their overall identity of being an Indian.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

vera_k wrote:Not necessarily. The government of the day can create estoppel on its own via initiatives like loosening border controls. And treaties with foreign nations do not need Parliamentary approval in India.
How does that action (border controls) alone create any difference to the sovereignty of the country? We have an open order with Nepal and Bhutan..We are trying to create as open borders as possible with Sri Lanka, in fact all neigbours...

Open borders might result in greater infiltration of terrorists...But that would simply mean that the govt would be forced to revert to status quo, no? BTW, "open border" is a generic term..It has to be dealt in specifics - for example, the Lahore Bus (or the Munnabao-Khokrapar bus) are initiatives on "open borders" - started by whom? :wink:
krisna
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

To vina, somnath menon Theo Nihat etc and others if I have forgotten.
Please answer this post. It is a fast moving thread might have been bypassed.
TIA.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1017045
arnab
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arnab »

Flag waving patriotism has its moments I’m sure, but it also has its dark side. In the US a flag waving patriot murdered a Sikh gas station attendant after 9/11. In Australia – flag waving drunks terrified immigrant families in Sydney on ‘Australia day’ in 2009. The underlying motive in all these cases was similar to one being espoused here viz. – to ‘take back’ the country from the people who were (perceived) a threat to their way of life (shades of take back J&K and stop its sellout). I’m sure they were being patriotic in their way though I would be surprised if any mature government would sanction such behavior.

Similarly, there are many families in the US deep south who still fly the confederate flag and dream of a Confederacy, but I doubt the government of the day tries to score a point by trying to hoist the stars and stripes on their back yard (and are not really accused of being a sell out or a joint love maker with confederate racists). This is because a government (if it is serious) has to consider substantive issues rather than emotive ones.

I note that a poster had made the point that fellow kannadigas may take offence if Tamils from across the border tried to hoist the flag in their state. I endorse his point (I remember kannadigas being seriously annoyed with God when Dr Rajkumar died of natural causes and therefore took their angst out on the nearest shop). The point is there are emotive issues which act as a trigger for a set of people, which to others may look bizarre (as in – how can they not let us fly the tricolor!!), similarly – try asking people to ‘officially’ learn hindi in the south and see their reaction – bizarre! Such emotive issues can quickly get out of hand and therefore it is best to nip such things in the bud.

So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
vera_k
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

somnath wrote:How does that action (border controls) alone create any difference to the sovereignty of the country?
By having to repect the opinion of newly arrived residents who may not want to fly the Indian flag? :mrgreen:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

krisna wrote:To vina, somnath menon Theo Nihat etc and others if I have forgotten.
Please answer this post. It is a fast moving thread might have been bypassed.
TIA.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1017045
Krisnaji, I dont have to answer an MCQ to prove my partiotism...The flag is as dear to me as it is to the next Indian..I get as many goosbumps on hearing the national anthem as the next Indian...That is precisely why I would like my country to be playing the "larger games", with the big boys...Trivial pursuits like these deter national attention/energies...

Arnab makes a good point....
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

Somnath,

there is a telugu saying "inta gelichi racha geluvu" which translates "first win at your house, then win outside"

nehru tried exactly what you said
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sidhant »

vina wrote: Yes, different indeed , with the only means of mobilization seems to be around polarizing wedge issues and the accompanying social and street violence. Shame. Nothing at all about being responsible for your actions and the effects of your actions and the gravitas and deep sense of propriety from being the main opposition party and a national "alternative" from the BJP.
Vina since when did hoisting the national flag on Indian territory became a polarizing issue? Are you worried about polarization of traitors and nationalists, or are you worried about polarization in Kashmir on the basis of Indophilic and Indophobic public. What exactly is your point here.

You talk about responsibility of action, why were you crying hoarse on CWG thread that the games should fail, what happened to the responsibility of action with your beloved party which is breaking record after record of scandals. Your love for Suited Booted corrupts and hatred for SDRE nationalists is beyond comprehension. You seem to be mesmerized with the heavy handed and shady way the so called responsible and Sane party is pulling the nation to new lows.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

arnab wrote: So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
And, keeping quiet and resorting to illegal power tactics the sign of a Coward? Do you know, that the leaders were provided notice under Sec 144 Cr PC. They offered to court arrest instead of accepting a deal from PC.

The examples you have provided, does not approximate to the case here. Where in Australia has a provincial government, denied a national political party from exercising its right or has been cagey about raising the national flag?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

arnab wrote:So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
Who's the scoundrel when the government is going ahead with this whole fascist looking spectacle of a huge parade at Rajpath and myriad other ways to mark Republic Day? The BJP effort would be out of place if the government cancelled all other functions scheduled for Jan 26.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

somnath wrote:
Krisnaji, I dont have to answer an MCQ to prove my partiotism...The flag is as dear to me as it is to the next Indian..I get as many goosbumps on hearing the national anthem as the next Indian...That is precisely why I would like my country to be playing the "larger games", with the big boys...Trivial pursuits like these deter national attention/energies...

Arnab makes a good point....
Sure, and the reason why we still have the same blisters, festering to wounds and then the logic is it is better to cut off the hand rather than the whole body. Is this not now how we lost a third of the nation?
krisna
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

arnab wrote:Flag waving patriotism has its moments I’m sure, but it also has its dark side. In the US a flag waving patriot murdered a Sikh gas station attendant after 9/11. In Australia – flag waving drunks terrified immigrant families in Sydney on ‘Australia day’ in 2009. The underlying motive in all these cases was similar to one being espoused here viz. – to ‘take back’ the country from the people who were (perceived) a threat to their way of life (shades of take back J&K and stop its sellout). I’m sure they were being patriotic in their way though I would be surprised if any mature government would sanction such behavior.

Similarly, there are many families in the US deep south who still fly the confederate flag and dream of a Confederacy, but I doubt the government of the day tries to score a point by trying to hoist the stars and stripes on their back yard (and are not really accused of being a sell out or a joint love maker with confederate racists). This is because a government (if it is serious) has to consider substantive issues rather than emotive ones.

I note that a poster had made the point that fellow kannadigas may take offence if Tamils from across the border tried to hoist the flag in their state. I endorse his point (I remember kannadigas being seriously annoyed with God when Dr Rajkumar died of natural causes and therefore took their angst out on the nearest shop). The point is there are emotive issues which act as a trigger for a set of people, which to others may look bizarre (as in – how can they not let us fly the tricolor!!), similarly – try asking people to ‘officially’ learn hindi in the south and see their reaction – bizarre! Such emotive issues can quickly get out of hand and therefore it is best to nip such things in the bud.

So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
Arnab, There are serious fallacies in your argument.
1) Flag waving has some dark moments too-.
It is like this- a person drinks alcohol but it has its dark moments too- you can end in an accident or commit a crime. Does this mean you should not drink alcohol They say drink responsibly. The person who killed the sikh will be punished accordingly. The law and order will take over if a crime is committed. Just because a few who commit a crime waving a flag should not imply it is bad.
2) When Rajkumar died of natural causes it was the failure of law and order. anti social elements created the disturbances due to infighting in the then govt. Many others have died with minimum disturbances because law and order was in full force.

One cannot cherry pick some events and quote them.Taking wrong assumptions leads to wrong results.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

vera_k wrote:[ So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’

Who's the scoundrel when the government is going ahead with this whole fascist looking spectacle of a huge parade at Rajpath and myriad other ways to mark Republic Day?
This is not a normal times and not a normal situation where the region has been India s and claimed by a third party which waged war at the very same people at the time of independence. It is in memory of India freedom and how diffcult they made it for India to become a republic.

People have sacrificed for this land and this is not the last refuge of the scoundrel’
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

somnath, I hope you don't think anyone questions your patriotism. Its you arguments that are being questioned.

Again to play with big boys the neighboring hoods have to be tackled. US had a century and half till 1890s to do that.

We need to be ready for the coming decades. Can't let old wounds fester. Read the wikileaks posted by Ravi about the French leader proposing a joint institute to draw up plans for when India arrives.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by manju »

arnab wrote:
So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
comapring the tamil people hosting flag in bengluru anology is like comparing apples and arranges... nice tactic to confuse the discussion.

BJP workers, if coming from all over country hoist a flag in Idgah maidna of Hublic (in Karnataka) will not offend any kannadigas... If this is the case why should it cause kujli if the same happens in Kashmir?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arnab »

IMO wrt J&K there is only one substantive issue as far as I am concerned. That is - Repeal Article 370 of the Constitution (do it the way GOI passed the nuke deal if you have to, but do it). Also, repeal Article 371 (same provision wrt Sikkim) so that no one accuses us of bias. All else is hot air.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by arnab »

manju wrote:BJP workers, if coming from all over country hoist a flag in Idgah maidna of Hublic (in Karnataka) will not offend any kannadigas... If this is the case why should it cause kujli if the same happens in Kashmir?
Manju ji - maybe so. But if BJP workers from the north came on a 'hindi asmita yatra' (or some such thing) where they insisted on imposing hindi as an official language all across the country - kannadigas (and tamils) would protest - no?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rudradev »

somnath wrote: Rudradevji, first up, there is no "us v/s them" here..We are all on the same side, even if perspectives differ..If you approach discussions from that level, you would take these things more dispassionately...Which is when you would probably do a little bit more "google search" and find out the details for yourself..Like the fact that the link above has an incomplete version of the Instrument of Accession (dont know if its deliberate)..

Heres the full version:

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... ession.htm
Schedule
The matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for this State.

Defence
The naval, military and air forces of the dominion and any other armed forces raised or maintained by the Dominion; any armed forces, incl forces raised or maintained by an acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

Arms, fire-arms, ammunition.

Explosives.

External Affairs
External affairs; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty's Dominions outside India.

Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State, pilgrimages to places beyond India.

Naturalization.

Communications
Posts and Telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting, and other like forms of communications.

Federal Railways; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fare, stn and service terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway Adm. as carriers of goods and passengers.

Maritime shipping and navigation, incl shipping and navigation in tidal waters; Admiralty jurisdiction.

Port quarantine.

Maj ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers of Port Authorities therein.

Ac and air navigation; the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organization of air traffic and of aerodromes.

Lighthouses, incl lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and ac.

Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.

Ancillary
Elections to the Dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any order made thereunder.

Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

Inquiries and statistics for the purpose of any of the aforesaid matters.

Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the Acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction of powers upon any courts other than ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.
So the original Instrument of Accession DID limit the law-making powers of the Indian Dominion to Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications and some Ancilliary items..So I guess the "lie" is settled?
Brave attempt, Somnathji, but the unfortunate fact of the matter is that there is nothing in that list implying any sort of "conditionality."

Which, let me remind you, you were VERY categorical in asserting the existence of:
The one signed by Hari Singh "agreed to accede to the Dominion of India on condition that the state retain its own constitution and autonomy in all matters except defense, currency and foreign affairs"
All I see is a schedule of matters in which the Dominion of India was entitled to legislate on central subjects with immediate effect... much like any of the other princely states which acceded to India was required to sign. It was only following the constitution of India as a Republic three years later, that the central, state and concurrent lists uniformly tabled the division of powers between the union and state governments.
Given the nature of the "accession", it was a fait accompli to have an "interim", or temporary arrangement in the Constitution (as this acession was materially different from most, in fact all the others in many respects)..this had to be done concurrently with the rest of the work of the Constituent Assembly, and the initial draft was the result of negotiations between Gopalaswami Ayyengar And Sheikh Abdullah...
Nature of the "accession" eh? The fact is, every princely state which acceded to India before she became a Republic had to turn over certain powers to the Dominion government with immediate effect, the rest to be negotiated later in line with whatever constitution was enacted by the successor to the Dominion government in New Delhi. There was nothing unique in the interim handover of powers by the J&K government to New Delhi, and nothing "conditional" about it either. The Maharaja, if you will read your history (or even the letter to which I posted a link earlier) was not exactly in a position to be placing conditions, given the invasion of Pakistani "tribals" from which he needed New Delhi's assistance to defend him.

It's interesting the course that beloved Sheikh Abdullah took, too, isn't it? After all that fussing with the details of Article 370 and Kashmir's "special status"... he finally goes into a huddle with Adlai Stevenson and worries dear old chacha Nehru so profoundly that Nehru throws him in jail, preventing any further role for him in the election of the J&K constituent assembly in 1954. It is equally interesting that some bemoan the "dilution" of Article 370... intended fundamentally as a temporary measure to consolidate the integration of J&K into India... without paying much attention to the sort of blackmail that landed its architect, Sheikh Abdullah, in the political wilderness less than two years later. :D

Here's a little more reading, since you're here to share and learn:
http://www.kashmir-information.com/Lega ... le370.html

And a MUST-READ on Article 370 for anyone who genuinely has India's interests at heart:
http://www.kashmir-information.com/Arti ... pter2.html

The bottom line: any Indian government that wants to revert to the pre-1953 status negotiated by Sheikh Abdullah, a political blackmailer of such rapaciousness that even Secular St. Jawaharlal felt compelled to throw him in jail and deny him any part in the further political consolidation of J&K with India... is selling out. Period.
A full reading will also tell you how more residuary powers were brought in the ambit of the Central govt through this "temporary" enactment over the years....to the extent that the only major "special" provision is on land ownership AFAIK..If you want to read more about the legal background of the Kashmir case, there are lots of books - AG Noorani is one (though I suspect against your ideological proclivities :wink: )...

finally, I repeat - relax.We are here to share and learn (at least I am), and we are on the same side..
What ever are you suggesting, I love AG Noorani!

But while we're on the subject, why not try widening your ideological horizons too. C.R. Das Gupta's "War and Diplomacy in Kashmir 1947-8" is an excellent start. Navneeta Chadha Behera (who spent some time at Brookings but miraculously went away undespoiled) wrote the excellent "State, Identity and Violence." There are also Vernon Hewitt's books: "Reclaiming the Past" and "Towards the Future", by a diplomatic journalist of such seniority that he has attested in contemporary magazine coverage to the bitter antagonism between the National Conference and the Muslim League in the immediate pre-partition era.
Last edited by Rudradev on 25 Jan 2011 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
ShauryaT
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

arnab wrote:IMO wrt J&K there is only one substantive issue as far as I am concerned. That is - Repeal Article 370 of the Constitution (do it the way GOI passed the nuke deal if you have to, but do it). Also, repeal Article 371 (same provision wrt Sikkim) so that no one accuses us of bias. All else is hot air.
This is exactly what the demand of the BJP is!! Repeal article 370. It will not happen without struggle and a national consensus. Now, if there is no consensus, the political party which believes in it, has to take to the street to make its case. This is democracy in action and all should support this right to demonstrate, even if you disagree with the policy.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

somnath wrote:
krisna wrote:To vina, somnath menon Theo Nihat etc and others if I have forgotten.
Please answer this post. It is a fast moving thread might have been bypassed.
TIA.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1017045
Krisnaji, I dont have to answer an MCQ to prove my partiotism...The flag is as dear to me as it is to the next Indian..I get as many goosbumps on hearing the national anthem as the next Indian...That is precisely why I would like my country to be playing the "larger games", with the big boys...Trivial pursuits like these deter national attention/energies...

Arnab makes a good point....
somnath,
the reason I asked is some of you argued against flag raising but never answered whether flag raising is a bad thing to do. all of you quoted that one of the political parties was taking mileage of it.

The bolded quotes of yours fails at this instance onlee due to your opposition. when a person cannot hoist his flag in his own country worrying about separatists, how will big boys respect.
Big boys become big by solving problesm not at baulking at them.
Power respects power.
By not allowing the flag raising at lal chowk which is the hot bed of separatists, the GOI has demonstrated to the world esp the separatists that we are a divided lot. This will embolden the outside powers and fish inside India more. separatists have been given a massive masive dose of publicity free of cost courtsey GOI.
All this for the sake of muslim votes. This is a dangerous trend playing by congress and its allies. They have equated BJP = hindu= communal.
Repercussions are enormous which will be played it in the coming months.
victims will be BJP=hindu politically and defence forces being killed with increased outside interfernce.
J&K will never be solved with this pussilanimous attitude.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

This is just like arguments between Kashmir separatists and Indians 30 years ago.

Now Indians have replaced the separatists. What a strange wicked time. This is hilarious only in the cyber world.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by kvraghav »

@Arnab
Vandalism is different from being a coward.You quoted the Dr Rajkumar incident.I will give many FOOLISH things done in west bengal if you need.The basic question is,why not hoist the flag.You know the Mysore kingdom and telanga region also joined the union in almost the same way as kashmir.Would it be valid if i would ask that,none of the outsiders should be able to buy land in bangalore or hoist the tri color at town hall??
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

ramana wrote: Again to play with big boys the neighboring hoods have to be tackled. US had a century and half till 1890s to do that.

We need to be ready for the coming decades. Can't let old wounds fester. Read the wikileaks posted by Ravi about the French leader proposing a joint institute to draw up plans for when India arrives.
Ramana, the US experience is less moot than the Chinese in our case..The context is similar...China has border issues ith EVERY SINGLE neighbour, well almost..It has had major skirmishes/wars with at least 3 of them post WWII...Look at the way they deal with those issues..

The way to "deal" with neighbours therefore is not a standard template of "slash and burn" till you get (ideological) purity..The Kashmir issue, given its nature will today get as much attention as WE give it...Look at the procession of world leaders into India and their pronouncements on Kashmir - nothing, absolutely nothing...even the venerable Economist complains that no one brings the issue up with India anymore! With every passing year, Kashmir has gone more and more irrelevant to the world - even an idealist Barack Obama was soon to grasp that..

Now there are a bunch of people, Kashmiri muslims, who are ambivalent at best and visceral at worst about India...So what do we need to do? Manage the security aspect of the problem and let the "militants" stew in their own juice of irrelevance? Or bring up periodic events that flash Kashmir on the front pages...From our perspective, the best case outcome on Kashmir is for it to be off the pages, get it as much into obscurity as possible..And that is the worst case outcome for the Hurriyat/LeT/Hizb types...

Thats why I say, its ironic that the objectives of both BJP and the LeT are being met to the tee by this yatra - difficult to fathom who is really against whom?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by partha »

arnab wrote:
manju wrote:BJP workers, if coming from all over country hoist a flag in Idgah maidna of Hublic (in Karnataka) will not offend any kannadigas... If this is the case why should it cause kujli if the same happens in Kashmir?
Manju ji - maybe so. But if BJP workers from the north came on a 'hindi asmita yatra' (or some such thing) where they insisted on imposing hindi as an official language all across the country - kannadigas (and tamils) would protest - no?
arnabji,
The Indian flag is a symbol of diversity. So when you say a group from north comes on a Hindi asmita yatra (to "impose" Hindi) with the tiranga, it is contradictory.
Last edited by partha on 25 Jan 2011 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

Marten wrote:

Where were you folks when the valley was burning? Did the deaths of Kashmiri Pundits mean nothing to you?

Why do you ascribe feelings of piety and fairness to the KMs?

Last of all, how would you justify the actions of an administration that allowed the raising of the Pakistani flag on INDIAN territory just last September with a 200 strong mob (OMG< I forgot they sneaked in though, right?) but will not allow the legitimate raising of the Indian flag on the same flagpole?

Seriously, what are you smoking?
This is becoming a sociology experiment for a political divide. Just like they wanted with Indians.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by JwalaMukhi »

There are lot of useless and stupid analogies thrown around. Yay, a bunch of kannadigas are moving into UP to install the flag of karnataka in heartland of UP. Give it a break! The guys are talking about National flag. Which part of "national flag" do people not understand?
Last edited by JwalaMukhi on 25 Jan 2011 07:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by kvraghav »

@Somnath
Dont compare china please.Look at the way they deal with uighurs before they deal with neighbours
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sri »

arnab wrote:Flag waving patriotism has its moments I’m sure, but it also has its dark side. In the US a flag waving patriot murdered a Sikh gas station attendant after 9/11. In Australia – flag waving drunks terrified immigrant families in Sydney on ‘Australia day’ in 2009. The underlying motive in all these cases was similar to one being espoused here viz. – to ‘take back’ the country from the people who were (perceived) a threat to their way of life (shades of take back J&K and stop its sellout). I’m sure they were being patriotic in their way though I would be surprised if any mature government would sanction such behavior.

So yes, while I believe that flag is a potent symbol of patriotism but I also remember that often ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’
Since young, my senior in my Alma Matar, Udai Singh was crazy about Indian flag. I remember him slapping me and later giving me 'ragda' when he caught me NOT singing National Anthem during morning assembly. But as you said above, I considered him a Scoundrel and if I knew this I would have repeated your golden words to him.

Like most of us he came from a military family and was passionate about getting back into military.Udai is no more with us. Died fighting separatist and earning a MVC.

I have been fortunate enough in my life to know not one but many Udai. I sometimes wonder what Udai would have made of all this. Foolish fellow with misguided passion, isn't it arnab ji? Lost his life for a hopeless cause....
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gagan »

The Tamil Vs Kannada debate on the tricolor hoisting will most likely end with both parties joining together to hoist the tricolour.

It will be a unifying event rather than being divisive most likely.

At least on the issue of desh-bhakti issue one can be reasonably confident, period.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by manju »

arnab wrote:
manju wrote:BJP workers, if coming from all over country hoist a flag in Idgah maidna of Hublic (in Karnataka) will not offend any kannadigas... If this is the case why should it cause kujli if the same happens in Kashmir?
Manju ji - maybe so. But if BJP workers from the north came on a 'hindi asmita yatra' (or some such thing) where they insisted on imposing hindi as an official language all across the country - kannadigas (and tamils) would protest - no?
I thought we were talking about the flag hoisting.. dont get confused
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gagan »

I got my last post in on the 5th click.

Man! This thread moves!!!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Here's a victimization-grievance tweet from a KM, one Junaid Azim Mattu:
You stand ready to correct???? Then apologize first. Set right your wrongs first and THEN come to us dancing with your flag!
Now I can understand sri mattu's family must've been hurt in the cashmere crisis, hence the angst.

Here's my rejoinder: Then kindly goto Pakistan. ( and we'll keep the valley, thank you).

Rationale is simple - it is people of sri junaid's ilk who ethnically cleansed the KPs from the valley. And yet somehow they believe they are immune to fate, faith and karmic consequences and can themselves never be cleansed only? Pray, why?

If either Pak or cheena ever get their hands on the valley, ethnic cleansing or at least severe ethnic dilution of the valley will be the first thing implemented unabashedly only. For better or for worse Indians are and are seen to be nowhere near as ruthless and unapologetic as required to credibly threaten to visit karma on the grievance mongers. Condemned we are to slowly losing bits and pieces, pockets here and there of the only homeland we have to unapologetic bigots and ethnic cleansers only.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vina »

RamaY wrote:That would be karma paying her visit to Srinagar, which resulted in Kashmiri Pandit exodus. Wonder where these separatists would like to go.
Yeah, very interesting this Karma business. The entire downtown of Srinagar, overwhelming majority of which would be that of people who had not truck whatsoever that happened gets punished , while the Islamist goons and JKLF types who did the bad things are safely in PoK or in other safer areas pushing the remote control or have already got their 72s. Maybe "Karma" is not as indiscriminate and stupid as you think it is ?
Wonder where did OA mortgaged all this seriousness and proactiveness during the stone pelting fiasco!
Wasn't there a small matter of 100+ killed and many more wounded in firing during crowd control?
The last time BJP was responsible and organized an nationwide yatra to wake up national pride; the nation blessed it with 80+ MP seats. Vandemataram, I would say!
Well, they rose by the sword and will die by it as well. Consider the point today that there are no real allies and the remaining ones like Nitish don't want to have any truck with the more extreme positions of the BJP (for instance this Ekta Yatra business). CBN left, Biju JD left, the only ones left are SS, Akalis and Nitish. Wonder how long will Nitish stick with you. So effectively Akalis and a split Shiv Sena. Good luck trying to coming back to power with those two alone. Vande Maatram I say and thank the mother for the good sense of the Indian people.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by kvraghav »

On another note,will sonia gandhi hoisting a flag anywhere in india become a italian congress invasion into india?Should it be allowed?Shouldnt we stop it in delhi this august 15?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

vina wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:So it has happened.

India has arrested all its opposition leaders and put them into jail. - once again.

British , Indira during emergency and Sonia now.
All ? I can count just 3. Sushma, Jaitley and Kumar and that too just "dumped" in Punjab and not arrested .
Just dumped on j&J - Panjab border

This place is called Madhopur

We will enter J&K again

We did not come for a Satyagraha. We have come for Tiranga Yatra. Wont give up. Come what may. :shock:

Vande Maatram.
Yeah right. Now wrap yourself in some make believe patriotism and "Vande Maataram" when you have collected a couple of thousand shock troops which will turn into an uncontrollable mob with disastrous consequences that an never be set right if there is a clash between this 50,000 odd mob and another mob put together by the separatists in downtown Srinagar. Half the city can easily be laid to a total waste in a couple of hours of rioting, with the ordinary folks innocently caught int he middle and who have no part in this idiocy being the main sufferers.

All right and dandy to throw it all away in a one liner with "Law and Order is the State Govt's responsibility" . Yes indeed it is , and I am glad that the J&K Govt and OA are taking it seriously and are thwarting this incredibly foolish venture and cynical venture.

Again I tell, it is back to the trusty old "Yatra" and Riots playbook of the BJP again like a broken LP record. This pony is unable to learn any other tricks and be a civilized democratic party, but wants to be "nationalist" and a "party of governance" and claims to be the party with a "difference" . Yes, different indeed , with the only means of mobilization seems to be around polarizing wedge issues and the accompanying social and street violence. Shame. Nothing at all about being responsible for your actions and the effects of your actions and the gravitas and deep sense of propriety from being the main opposition party and a national "alternative" from the BJP.

I really think it is a sad day when Vajpayee retired. He seemed to be the only sane guy in the BJP ever. No wonder he rose to be the PM. These Sushmas, Jaitleys and Kumars remind me of that grumpy and forever sidelined "Tall Leader", MM Joshi, who tried a me too "imitation" Rath Yatra after Advani's Ayodhya one in a very tense and charged Kashmir of 1992 and which ended in a whimper. My money is on this one too ending in a whimper and pray the J&K Govt and Govt of India , squash this lunacy and prevent any potential street level clashes in Kashmir.
Okay Okay Okay..you hate BJP and I appreciate your sincerity in doing so...but but but...are you still not apologetic towards Kashmiri Pandits for whaever "cushy" bile you just vomited?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by krisna »

Now there are a bunch of people, Kashmiri muslims, who are ambivalent at best and visceral at worst about India...So what do we need to do? Manage the security aspect of the problem and let the "militants" stew in their own juice of irrelevance? Or bring up periodic events that flash Kashmir on the front pages...From our perspective, the best case outcome on Kashmir is for it to be off the pages, get it as much into obscurity as possible..And that is the worst case outcome for the Hurriyat/LeT/Hizb types...
Somnath seriously you must be smoking charas :mrgreen:

One cannot mollycoddle separatists/terrorists. being soft on them will not work.

Ex- you have a home, some rats enter your home. You cannot be soft on the rats and allow them inside your home.Allowing obscurity to rats will endanger you and your family. Rats will do their job irrespective of your good intentions.
You cannot blame your shq or vice versa :wink: that one of them made a mess at home and rats entered. Both should work together to minimise the damage by rats and plug the holes by which rat entered the home.
This does not mean burning the home foolishly which the present dispenation is doing.
wonders never cease. :rotfl:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Shankas »

vina wrote:
Again I tell, it is back to the trusty old "Yatra" and Riots playbook of the BJP again like a broken LP record.
When Congress does "yatra" "Morcha" it is always called "Desh Bachao" this or that.

What to do Sir, we are like this only. We learnt it from someone called the Mahatma, who is not familiar to the current generation of Congress and is dusted up and utilised when it suits the older generation.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sudeepj »

What a set of verbal calisthenics by Somnath, Menon, Vina and others :-D

Look, you may disagree all you want with the BJPs approach to politics. Thats your prerogative, as much as its mine to agree with its politics or be aloof.

The question is, what role should the state and central governments have played when facing this issue?

Should it have been to say, we disagree with you. Your politics stink, but you have a right to do your politics, we will stand with you while you exercise your fundamental rights. This is not exactly without precedence in India, for e.g. the Yasin Malik and Arundhati Roy 'panel discussion' in Delhi was provided protection!

Or should it have been the subterfuge by night, shying away from dealing with the questions at hand and the unlawful use of official machinery to stop people from exercising their fundamental right.

This is the key question. You hate Hindutva, I love it, we can agree to disagree, but there is no middle ground between the two answers to the question - Does the BJP have a right to hold a political rally in J&K?
Theo_Fidel

Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Since when did the flag become a sign of patriotism. If anyone says that, I refuse to raise the flag for that one reason alone.

So what now, if someone wears the flag on his jatti's do we lynch him as a sign of 'un-patriotism'. Why the fetish for this symbol.

Also as long people are being divided into the 'patriotic/un-patriotic' camps, this particular issue was essentially non-existent till the BJP brought it up. So how can you now pretend that it is not a political issue. To my mind the BJP is dividing India into 'patriotic/un-patriotic' camps. You can see the turmoil on this board with members accusing each other of supporting genocide, etc.

In the meantime the economy thread has generated a measly 20 posts in the last week. That in itself should tell you why you don't play with this particular fire. It will turn around and burn the BJP itself one day.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vina »

Sidhant wrote: Vina since when did hoisting the national flag on Indian territory became a polarizing issue?

I already did. It happened the day when BJP made it a partisan issue and brought it's hate baggage into the issue.
Sidhant wrote:You talk about responsibility of action, why were you crying hoarse on CWG thread that the games should fail, what happened to the responsibility of action with your beloved party which is breaking record after record of scandals. Your love for Suited Booted corrupts and hatred for SDRE nationalists is beyond comprehension. You seem to be mesmerized with the heavy handed and shady way the so called responsible and Sane party is pulling the nation to new lows.
Exactly. Now there is this massive misgovernance issue of gargantuan proportions staring at your face. I grant it, that the UPA-II govt is probably the most venal and corrupt this country has seen ever, and this is mind you despite the great personal honesty and integrity of the PM and the bulk of the Congress ministers handling their portfolios.

There are scams and scams galore, price rice to high heavens, food inflation, lack of fiscal probity, (Rahul Mehta would love this), massive M3 growth :mrgreen: , misdirected spending, lack of real reforms, stalled governance. . Real life and death issues all I assure you.

The BJP should take the govt on that. Focus on governance, rip the govt on that and see something real and substantive happens. And no, we have sanctimonious stalling of parliament, and some glib answer on Yeddy on the lines of "immoral but not illegal!" and some taking up some obscure, "Did you fly the flag at Lal Chowk ?. Why not there ? Why do you fly it at that spot 100ms away ?" kind of rubbish.

I saw the slogans on TV yesterday. "Jhanda Wahin Lehrayenge!" .. Doesn't it hark back to "Mandir Wahin Baneyange "? Isn't it Deja Vu ? The riot and rath politics back in a very similar form and similar verbiage?
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