Indian Military Aviation

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Jul 2011 08:36

Mig29 also has greater downtime than an M2K. So you spend 1B to get 120 hrs and you spend 4b to 220hrs doesnt that make a difference ? apart from the 100hrs the hassles of getting spares and serviceablity needs to be looked at.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Jul 2011 08:43

Philip wrote:Simply amazing,upgrading 52 Mirages for approx $4 billion,while upgrading 60+ MIG-29s costs only $1 billion,that too the MIG-29 which was proven the better air combat aircraft in IAF secret one-on-one exercises AM Masand in Vayu) some time ago.Even top brass IAF officers have questioned the wisdom of such an expensive upgrade when we could've bought the same number of any of 3 of the dumped candidates for the MMRCA deal,brand new aircraft and their weaponry,which would've lasted us for double the time of the to-be upgraded Mirages.There is a huge smell of rotting fish here-is this a QPQ (quid-pro-quo) to Sarko for favours not in the public domain?

PS:This could be one method by which the Rafale's price will be found to be clearly below the Typhoon's,"allowing" it to win the "battle of the budget" and winning the MMRCA deal,a devious strategy of substantially overpricing the M-2000 upgrade .If you compare the costs of the two upgrades-MIG-29 for 60+ aircraft and M-2000 for 50+ aircraft at 400% the cost ,the matter becomes clear.

The MiG-29 deal did not include the weapon system. We do not yet know that MiG-29 related infrastructure cost us additional. We do not know if India will be a hub for future M2K upg deals with other other operators. Gov't won't implement add'l 1.5 Billion dollars without some thought.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Jul 2011 09:03

I dont think so all is being told , something is being hidden in this upgrade. Maybe its being made to fire brahmos? Just speculating

nash · Post by **nash** » 14 Jul 2011 09:08

Kersi D wrote: GREAT

IAF would also have the best logistics system amongst any AF to handle 7 state-of-art combat aircraft. I doubt that even USAF had 7 types of aircraft in their heydays. Say in 1960s they had F4, F100, F102, F106, F105, A4, A6, A7 etc etc etc

Kersi

In terms of logistic i would say situation will be better after 2025 becoz during 2025-30 jag,M2K & Mig -29 probably replaced by more numbers of PAK-FA,AMCA & LCA.

Then IAF only have to take care of lesser variety of jets.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 14 Jul 2011 09:13

krishnan wrote:I dont think so all is being told , something is being hidden in this upgrade. Maybe its being made to fire brahmos? Just speculating

saar ji the simple physics of it is such that the mirage airframe will simply not be able to carry a brahmos I do however agree with the notion that there is something much bigger going on in this deal its simply too much being spent on....we need to wait till more information trickles out as CM has rightly pointed out while this will definitely affect the mrca decision the dong can swing both ways toward the tiffy or the rafale...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Jul 2011 09:22

prithvi wrote:..but this is once again another slap in the face of ordinary people whom our government fails to protect ...time after time Serial blasts killing ordinary folks and we are spending gazillion dollars in the name of national security...!!!!! 10-15% cut money per deal... its the new kind of loot..

All this while they show stinginess in procuring helmets and BPJs for the 'ordinary' javan. SHAME!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jul 2011 09:33

andy B wrote:
krishnan wrote:I dont think so all is being told , something is being hidden in this upgrade. Maybe its being made to fire brahmos? Just speculating
saar ji the simple physics of it is such that the mirage airframe will simply not be able to carry a brahmos I do however agree with the notion that there is something much bigger going on in this deal its simply too much being spent on....we need to wait till more information trickles out as CM has rightly pointed out while this will definitely affect the mrca decision the dong can swing both ways toward the tiffy or the rafale...

M2K fire brahmos????

Ayyo the mijjile is probly longer than entire fuselage section! I think Andysan that Krishnan meant the Rafale as a candidate for the Brahmos - might just be...

Still, the fact that this upgrade is not even gold std (no RDY 2, no new engines etc), it makes me feel that this hyper price might just be to subsidize Rafale's entry into the IAF. Judging by previous costs of Rafale (Bra, holland etc), it is no less that $ 150 mil per bird, accounting for economies of scale for a much larger order, I'd still say the price would be around $ 100+ mil per unit incldng support, spares, weapons etc. No less than $ 12-15 billion for the entire contract.

Now if the M2k upg in itself costs about $ 1 billion (reasonable since it seems a rather marginal one), they could use the $ 3 bill towards weapons/systems that could be common for the Rafale as well.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Jul 2011 09:44

Kersi D wrote: GREAT

IAF would also have the best logistics system amongst any AF to handle 7 state-of-art combat aircraft...

Kinda like saying that your kid is going to have great shoulder muscles because he carries a very heavy back-pack to school. One must keep in mind that there a lot of air forces around the world which have around 60, 40 or even only 20 fighters and have no problems providing support for them. The IAFs support system can be seen just as an amalgamation of 3-5 such small air forces with lots of duplication in weapons, infrastructure and manpower.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Jul 2011 09:47

@ Shrinivasan, I do not have your email.

added later, my email is in my profile sig.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 14 Jul 2011 09:48

marko saan...even the rafale will fiind it extremely difficult to accomodate a brahmos its just to friggin big.

In regards to the RDY2 saar ji its not all bad newj I did go google chacha with this query and what i found was the RDY3 was mucho more optimised for multi role and air to ground stuff whereas the Rdy2 was more inclined for air to air.

To me it does sound like they are trying to economise the actual cost of rafale by pumping more $ through the mirage contract. I mean if on top of this contract if they decide on Tiffy then I shiver to think how much we will end up actually spending...yikes!!! finance ministry is gonna have a massive cardiac arrest onlee.

The other way as Admiral and joo too pointed out is that this is the ultimate baksheesh for Fra and thats the end of it they will go full tiffy although as mentioned above how much moolah will that actually cost remains to be seen.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Jul 2011 09:52

Guess , French will step in all the projects (inc Nuke Sub )suferring because of Russian shenanigans. Look like GOI just made a decison to pay the down payment for sort fo strategic tie-up.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:28

Rahul M wrote:@ Shrinivasan, I do not have your email.

Edited:

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:30

Shrinivasan wrote:
K_Rohit wrote:Post again...? Pretty please? no time to google them...
I will post links tomorrow, do you have to check link or should I post pics too?

can you email me... my mailid is in another post in this page

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jul 2011 10:31

andy B wrote:marko saan...even the rafale will fiind it extremely difficult to accomodate a brahmos its just to friggin big.

In regards to the RDY2 saar ji its not all bad newj I did go google chacha with this query and what i found was the RDY3 was mucho more optimised for multi role and air to ground stuff whereas the Rdy2 was more inclined for air to air.

To me it does sound like they are trying to economise the actual cost of rafale by pumping more $ through the mirage contract. I mean if on top of this contract if they decide on Tiffy then I shiver to think how much we will end up actually spending...yikes!!! finance ministry is gonna have a massive cardiac arrest onlee.

The other way as Admiral and joo too pointed out is that this is the ultimate baksheesh for Fra and thats the end of it they will go full tiffy although as mentioned above how much moolah will that actually cost remains to be seen.

Yes, M2k upg PLUS tiffy would be mindboggling ($ 20 billion, wot?). Still not as bad as those crazy arabs - IIRC damn RSA F-15 upg deal cost around $ 30 billion!

Are you sure on the RDY 3 being more multirole? I thought the RDY 3 was meant for cheaper upgrades. The gold std. was supposedly M2K-5/9 - which the UAE folks have. RDY2 (as on ADla M2k-5) = A2A modes plus rudimentary A2G, RDY2 (as on UAE M2k-5/9) = full A2A + A2G, RDY-3 (potential non M2k frames ala LCA) = poor man's solution.

INteresting development for sure - could mean that the Rafale is a shoo-in OR that it has been booted out! I am increasingly thinking, contrary to what i earlier believed, that it is first option - they would not have waited that long to give the M2k upg a green light otherwise.

CM

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:34

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:If we have 70 mig-29s, shouldn't there be four SQ rather than three?!?
Each squadron of 20 planes plus war and attrition reserves.

Bala, it is usually 16+2 trainers (sometimes even lower). even if we assume 18, it should be 54 airframes for 3SQ. which still leaves us 16 birds? Are Mig29 birds in TACDE? are some birds earmarked for special projects and hence not part of the 3 frontline SQs?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:38

rohitvats wrote:What might we be purchasing for 1billion USD? That is pretty steap for 60 odd mirages....unless, we are buying stuff for other a/c in our inventory as well.

A lot is getting packaged into this deal. the Mica purchase is factored into the 2.4 Bil deal. the extra 1B is for stuff like Scalp etc. We are also getting the capability to integrate (read sourcecode) a multitude of weapons onto our M2Ks
there is a CT that this deal cross-subsidises the Rafale pitch for MMRCA.
All thing said and done, a potent platform of M2Ks in the IAF inventory is becoming a major force to reckon with.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Jul 2011 10:45

Shrinivasan sir,
yup. its usually 16+2 trainers per squadron. But we have to add to this the storage reserves that will be maintained for war wastage and attrition. Now if we keep that to be around 10-12 then the total number shoots up to 64-66. Another three birds unaccounted for, since IIRC the total number of MiG29's in IAF are currently 69.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:51

Bala Vignesh wrote:yup. its usually 16+2 trainers per squadron. ... since IIRC the total number of MiG29's in IAF are currently 69.

Bala, as we are in the "SDRE Mil Aviation" Dhaga let me give you a parallel to this Mig29 SQ Pooch..
SDREs have around 51-52 Mirage 2000H/TH multi role fighters in Two Fighter squadrons (No.1 Tigers and No.7 Battle Axes) both based in Gwalior in Central India. This should account for 32-36 airframes. What about the 12-13 remaining airframes??? Good question… there are two possibilities
1) Mirage 2000s are the core of the SDRE TACDE school, this is sort of the IAF’s Top Gun which creates and perfects the tactics for SDRE air force. Apart from M2K other places like Mig-21(?) (air interceptor and A2A attack) Jaguar(?) and Mig27 (Ground Attack) and Sukhoi SU30-MKI (Multi Role) are also part of TACDE.
2) Mirage2000s are the favored nuclear delivery platform for SDREs. Eventhough it is a Single Engine plane (Surprise) it is extremely agile, extremely good multi role with phenomenal uptime, All ideal characteristics for a nuclear delivery platform. It has a top speed of Mach 2.2 and a range of 1500km with 1 drop tank, it is also capable of being refueled in mid air. It can carry 15K lb of stores and has 9 hard points.

This might explain the unaccounted for #s for M2Ks, but I find it hard to apply the same logic to Mig29s
PS:Please drop the Sir!!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:56

The high cost is for compensation for France to loose the deal
or
The high price will be adjusted when France wins the deals, there by GoI can then say that they got the best deal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2011 11:02

we could use some barracuda SSN tech for a new line of hunter-killer optimized SSN in a few yrs once the first few SSBNs are out.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Jul 2011 11:42

Shrinivasan wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:yup. its usually 16+2 trainers per squadron. ... since IIRC the total number of MiG29's in IAF are currently 69.
Bala, as we are in the "SDRE Mil Aviation" Dhaga let me give you a parallel to this Mig29 SQ Pooch..
SDREs have around 51-52 Mirage 2000H/TH multi role fighters in Two Fighter squadrons (No.1 Tigers and No.7 Battle Axes) both based in Gwalior in Central India. This should account for 32-36 airframes. What about the 12-13 remaining airframes??? Good question… there are two possibilities
1) Mirage 2000s are the core of the SDRE TACDE school, this is sort of the IAF’s Top Gun which creates and perfects the tactics for SDRE air force. Apart from M2K other places like Mig-21(?) (air interceptor and A2A attack) Jaguar(?) and Mig27 (Ground Attack) and Sukhoi SU30-MKI (Multi Role) are also part of TACDE.
2) Mirage2000s are the favored nuclear delivery platform for SDREs. Eventhough it is a Single Engine plane (Surprise) it is extremely agile, extremely good multi role with phenomenal uptime, All ideal characteristics for a nuclear delivery platform. It has a top speed of Mach 2.2 and a range of 1500km with 1 drop tank, it is also capable of being refueled in mid air. It can carry 15K lb of stores and has 9 hard points.

This might explain the unaccounted for #s for M2Ks, but I find it hard to apply the same logic to Mig29s
PS:Please drop the Sir!!

Shrinivas Ji,
First things first, us SDRE's have Three, not two, squadrons of the Mirage 2000's, with No 9 Squadron being the latest one but equipped with only around 10 airframes. So that's about 46 frames accounted for. Now that leaves about 6 airframes and these are going to be held in reserve for many reasons. So that should bring some clarity in the situation.

And i am sure that no matter what the IAF will have store a few frames of every craft for attrition purposes. so may be with the MiG 29 being a bird with a marginally high downtime, may be the number of frames held in storage might be higher, almost to a squadron strength giving us the total number of 69.
JMO

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 14 Jul 2011 12:33

Avro Hack

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 12:52

Bala Vignesh wrote: First things first, us SDRE's have Three, not two, squadrons of the Mirage 2000's, with No 9 Squadron being the latest one but equipped with only around 10 airframes. So that's about 46 frames accounted for. Now that leaves about 6 airframes and these are going to be held in reserve for many reasons. So that should bring some clarity in the situation.

Thanks for the explanation...
I have the 9th SQ (WolfPack) documented as a M2K SQ in my GE database but missed it during my writeup. extra airframes could be for TACDE.
For Mig-29s, most probably the SQ strength could be higher.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Jul 2011 13:20

I am not sure about the remaining units being with TACDE.
They could be using the same birds as the Nos 1 and 7 squadron since they are all co located at Gwalior AFS.
Based on what i could find, TACDE uses the bis variant of MiG 21 and the MiG 27 for training.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jul 2011 18:17

Shrinivasan, since when has TACDE been operating M2ks? Any source? They used to operate Mig-21s and 27s and then we had a news item about a temporary detachment of Su-30s IIRC. I've never heard of TACDE operating M2ks.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Jul 2011 20:41

The following are the two links that i could find on TACDE. They both don't mention that it operates M2K.
TACDE @ tripod.com
TACDE @ Fighter Pilot University

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Jul 2011 22:20

Shrinivasan wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: First things first, us SDRE's have Three, not two, squadrons of the Mirage 2000's, with No 9 Squadron being the latest one but equipped with only around 10 airframes. So that's about 46 frames accounted for. Now that leaves about 6 airframes and these are going to be held in reserve for many reasons. So that should bring some clarity in the situation.
Thanks for the explanation...
I have the 9th SQ (WolfPack) documented as a M2K SQ in my GE database but missed it during my writeup. extra airframes could be for TACDE.
For Mig-29s, most probably the SQ strength could be higher.

Historically, the IAF's MiG-29s have had poor serviceability rate. This may account for the extra airframes allocated per MiG-29 squadron when compared to the usual 16 to 18 aircrafts per squadron for other types (i.e. Mirage-2000s which have a very high serviceability rate). I think at least 70% fleet service rate is desired.

The other thing to note is that the Russian airframes like the MiG-29s typically have significantly lower airframe life (<4,000 hours) when compared to Western aircrafts like the Mirage-2000s (around 6,000 hours).

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 14 Jul 2011 23:00

Cain Marko wrote:Mirage 2000 upg gone through at last, has it? REading tea leaves, looks to me there are 2 perspectives now -

1) This $ 4 billion deal was a baksheesh thrown to Fra - no more Rafales, IAF makes ready for Typhoon.

2) better heads prevail, this deal is used to reduce price tag on Rafales, and increase weapons, supply chain commonality (cost reduction) so as to make Rafale as MRCA seem to fit the budget. Otherwise, there is no way India can afford 126 Eurocanards for MRCA at a measly $ 10 billlion budget.

Of course chai leaves are notorious for being deceptive.

CM

CM, my post is not directed for you but I am using it as an example as this is way too common at BRF these days. Your posts are highly valued by me and I believe by all BRFits. People forget that we live in a democracy, weak and floundering it may be, that still ensures that most honest and competent people make it to the top even if the majority is corrupt and self serving.

MMS, AKAntony, ABV, N Modi, APJ Kalam, Nitish Kumar, Jyoti bashu, Budhha, Dr Raman Singh and countless more have shown that our society still functions and honesty gets rewarded.

I do not think India needs to throw $4 Billion bakhsheesh/bribe to France to earn it's goodwill?

We are one of the poorest country in the world and we have money because of our enormous size not because we are wealthy. Any suggestion that billions of tax-payers money is being given to please govt of foreign countries which is neither needed nor pursued or demanded, is sickening to me.

This reading between the line at BRF usually ends up with reasoning that

1) Arms purchases are somehow for "keeping everyone happy by throwing billions of dollars to richest and most developed countries of the world".

2) Arms purchases or rejection of a country (Usually USA) is based on some political, legal or historical basis not the actual GSRQ compliance and cost.

Both approaches are grossly unfair and comes from the presumption that everyone is corrupt, decisions are substandard and done by a bunch of men who are reading between the line. India is not a person, or a country run by despot(s), a system like ours works on procedures and policies set for making these purchases of course with diversions, inefficiencies and violations. Stories of bribes and bending the rules that we hear in media is almost always exaggerated to unbelievable levels and should not be taken on face values. Bribes, deals and $hit like that happens on personal/individual or institution levels but it is more like a grease or additional tax that is collected by neta/babu combos. Neither the German subs nor the Bofors guns have ever been accused of being anything but excellent choices/purchases.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2011 00:20

Shrinivasan wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:yup. its usually 16+2 trainers per squadron. ... since IIRC the total number of MiG29's in IAF are currently 69.
Bala, as we are in the "SDRE Mil Aviation" Dhaga let me give you a parallel to this Mig29 SQ Pooch..
SDREs have around 51-52 Mirage 2000H/TH multi role fighters in Two Fighter squadrons (No.1 Tigers and No.7 Battle Axes) both based in Gwalior in Central India. This should account for 32-36 airframes. What about the 12-13 remaining airframes??? Good question… there are two possibilities
1) Mirage 2000s are the core of the SDRE TACDE school, this is sort of the IAF’s Top Gun which creates and perfects the tactics for SDRE air force. Apart from M2K other places like Mig-21(?) (air interceptor and A2A attack) Jaguar(?) and Mig27 (Ground Attack) and Sukhoi SU30-MKI (Multi Role) are also part of TACDE.
2) Mirage2000s are the favored nuclear delivery platform for SDREs. Eventhough it is a Single Engine plane (Surprise) it is extremely agile, extremely good multi role with phenomenal uptime, All ideal characteristics for a nuclear delivery platform. It has a top speed of Mach 2.2 and a range of 1500km with 1 drop tank, it is also capable of being refueled in mid air. It can carry 15K lb of stores and has 9 hard points.

This might explain the unaccounted for #s for M2Ks, but I find it hard to apply the same logic to Mig29s
PS:Please drop the Sir!!

There is a 3rd Mirage-2000 squadron. The No.9 Wolfpacks took delivery of the 10 attrition replacement Mirages that were delivered in early 2000s. There are no un-accounted for Mirages.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jul 2011 06:45

nachiket wrote:Shrinivasan, since when has TACDE been operating M2ks? Any source? They used to operate Mig-21s and 27s and then we had a news item about a temporary detachment of Su-30s IIRC. I've never heard of TACDE operating M2ks.

The aim of TACDE is to develop tactics for the top-guns of IAF, sometime back they had Mig-21 and Mig-27 which we moved to Gwalior from their home base. Similarly a detachment of SU30MKIs were deputed to TACDE. TACDE charter says, all frontline aircrafts of IAF are deputed to it for evolving tactics. M2K being one of the foremost multi role fighter in IAF's inventory before SU came on board, also being based in the same location, across an airfield would definitely be part of TACDE at some point in time.
After all M2K is out preferred new-clear detergent bird, I still think M2Ks would be/have been part of TACDE.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 15 Jul 2011 09:04

Shrinivasan wrote:
nachiket wrote:Shrinivasan, since when has TACDE been operating M2ks? Any source? They used to operate Mig-21s and 27s and then we had a news item about a temporary detachment of Su-30s IIRC. I've never heard of TACDE operating M2ks.
The aim of TACDE is to develop tactics for the top-guns of IAF, sometime back they had Mig-21 and Mig-27 which we moved to Gwalior from their home base. Similarly a detachment of SU30MKIs were deputed to TACDE. TACDE charter says, all frontline aircrafts of IAF are deputed to it for evolving tactics. M2K being one of the foremost multi role fighter in IAF's inventory before SU came on board, also being based in the same location, across an airfield would definitely be part of TACDE at some point in time.
After all M2K is out preferred new-clear detergent bird, I still think M2Ks would be/have been part of TACDE.

Exactly. They are deputed from operational units for a few weeks time and then returned. They don't hold any aircraft apart from the MiG 21bis/M/MF and the MiG27ML in their inventory, as per open sources.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jul 2011 09:26

the mig-21's are going to be replaced by mki's. possibly the mig-27 too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2011 09:32

the Mig21 and Mig27 are the two most limited a/c in the IAF inventory in various measures like airframe, age, sophistication...I am not sure why they should be the standard horse in tacde stable...perhaps being weakest links in chain the idea is what works for these will work for anything else

tactics for each a/c will be different - a su30 cannot run at treetop level like a jag and a jag cannot turn like a mig29...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jul 2011 09:38

but they were the 2 most numerous types at one time.
AFAIK mig-21 was used for fighter combat leader course and mig-27 for fighter strike leader.

pretty sure other aircraft modules are there. remember seeing a transport leader patch during AI09 with a heavily muscled eagle logo ? there are also SAM courses IIRC.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jul 2011 09:57

^^^And helicopter ones as well.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Jul 2011 11:27

Katare wrote:
CM, my post is not directed for you but I am using it as an example as this is way too common at BRF these days. Your posts are highly valued by me and I believe by all BRFits. People forget that we live in a democracy, weak and floundering it may be, that still ensures that most honest and competent people make it to the top even if the majority is corrupt and self serving.

MMS, AKAntony, ABV, N Modi, APJ Kalam, Nitish Kumar, Jyoti bashu, Budhha, Dr Raman Singh and countless more have shown that our society still functions and honesty gets rewarded.

I do not think India needs to throw $4 Billion bakhsheesh/bribe to France to earn it's goodwill?

We are one of the poorest country in the world and we have money because of our enormous size not because we are wealthy. Any suggestion that billions of tax-payers money is being given to please govt of foreign countries which is neither needed nor pursued or demanded, is sickening to me.

This reading between the line at BRF usually ends up with reasoning that

1) Arms purchases are somehow for "keeping everyone happy by throwing billions of dollars to richest and most developed countries of the world".

2) Arms purchases or rejection of a country (Usually USA) is based on some political, legal or historical basis not the actual GSRQ compliance and cost.

Both approaches are grossly unfair and comes from the presumption that everyone is corrupt, decisions are substandard and done by a bunch of men who are reading between the line. India is not a person, or a country run by despot(s), a system like ours works on procedures and policies set for making these purchases of course with diversions, inefficiencies and violations. Stories of bribes and bending the rules that we hear in media is almost always exaggerated to unbelievable levels and should not be taken on face values. Bribes, deals and $hit like that happens on personal/individual or institution levels but it is more like a grease or additional tax that is collected by neta/babu combos. Neither the German subs nor the Bofors guns have ever been accused of being anything but excellent choices/purchases.

Katareji, Thing is, nobody is saying that arms purchases are solely made for "keeping everyone happy by throwing billions of dollars to richest and most developed countries of the world". I don't think anyone on BRF is that silly. Obviously India gets a degree of capability with such purchases but distributing deals amongst friendly nations or nations whose friendship we value, is hardly "throwing away" tax payer $$s. Govts. are elected to make, and consolidate desirable alliances - this is done via various means - defence deals is only one. Simply put, we need the equipment right? Then what is the harm if we maintain a few alliances or win new ones in the process?

It is naive to think that such deals worth crazy $$$$s don't have political, and strategic angles apart from the obvious military and logistics ones. Reading between the lines should be simple for most BRFites - you are here long enough and you can figure out that there is a lot happening behind the scenes. Here are a few examples -

1) Fra offers 40 Rafales as a standalone purchase, not once but twice just before the MOD/IAF announces its need for 40 more MKIs.
2) MiG does not show up at AIndia for the first time in years - just before the MRCA cut is made public. IN of course has ordered 36 additional Ks 2 months prior to the show. India has also committed to the Pakfa - worth $ 30 billlion at the same time.
3) Soon after MRCA shortlist is announced, the US ambassador resigns, and there seems to be a degree of anger in US circles - even Tellis alludes to this. Almost on cue, multiple deals are signed with the US worth billions (again, not saying that this was totally political - obviously the IAF capability will benefit).
4) The M2k deal is originally a done deal in France's pocket - way back in 2003-04. This was a sure thing accrd to media reports. quid pro quid perhaps for supporting the nuke blasts - worth $ 5 billion. THen GOI changes and invites new competitors for MRCA. Fra feels shafted, Edelsteinne (head of Dassault) throws a fit, Fra almost drops out of MMRCA race completely. Frenchies give P. Mukherjee a cold shoulder in his visit to Fra. LLQRM Maitri is almost ditched. IIRC noises are even made about mistreatment of christian folk in India. But ruffled feathers are slowly caressed - now talk of M2k upg starts in earnest - the idea of new mirages is forgotten and we find out soon why. Sarko looks a lot happier in recent visits including one as the Rep Day Chief honcho. The upg deal when announced causes high bp for most jingos - insanely high price almost equivalent to the original purchase of 126 m2ks @ $ 5bln. Why do you think it took so long to do this? I mean if they were going to shell out this kind of moolah, why not do it 4 years ago? Obviously, we didn't haggle this long to pay such as astounding price and that too to the detriment of IAF/nation's defence capability?

You think all of this is just coincindence?

There is absolutely no reason why a fighter upgrade should be so costly. Not with the specs disclosed to the media. The PAF F-16 upg and 36 new a/c including a sh*tload of weapons cost about $ 5 billion. The MiG-29upg for 10 more airframes cost about $ 1.2 billion. Both are certainly more comprehensive. The IAF MKI MLU is slated at $ 2.5 billion - again far more comprehensive than whats on offer for the M2k and hell of a lot more airframes too! The list can go on....

Under the circumstances, it is rather logical for folks to start wondering why so expensive? Esp. when other options were available. You can choose to believe:
1) because M2k is simply the best and has the most comprehensive upg, and IAF really needs it. you get what you pay for and all that. Everything is so perfectly sane in our system.
2) because there are insane kickbacks (so much for an honest, fledgling democracy) as some cynically have alluded to.
3) because there is something chankian going on - perhaps one way to subsidize the Rafale - the hope of the beysaharas.
4) because it is one way to keep frenchies calm after losing a deal they were almost guaranteed - the hope of strategists and EF fans.

Jingos are welcome to add more options.

CM.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jul 2011 17:48

Khatare,
My vote is on a combination of points 1 thru 3.
4 IMHO is not plausible raffle would already be cheaper than EF based on sticker price, weapons pricing has been taken care of in M2K deal I presume.
Key to winning MMRCA at this point is OFFSETs, who ever can offer Desh a better deal WINS.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 15 Jul 2011 20:20

I wonder how the defence folks were able to convince the finance folks on why the m2k upgrade deal cost so much especially given that, what appears to be, more than that meets the eye. Especially given the fact the finance folks turned down the tanker deal on cost factor alone. I am sure there must have been umpteen chai-biskoot sessions with defence min people patiently explaining the larger picture.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Jul 2011 20:53

The quoted cost is nothing but a day light robbery of Indian coffers, if it is just for upgrading the air crafts and buying weapons for them.

C17 deal @ $5.1 Billion appeared like way too expensive too but it turned out that it had gems like wind-tunnel facilities and service contracts included at lower $4.1 bil cost.

Mirage deal may have some other aspects too, including different ways of accounting the total value, taxes, expensive offset technologies unrelated to Mirage, long term service/spare contracts etc.

Bribes/kickbacks are usually 10-15% and that does not explain the amount being asked.

Cain,

I know you are not silly neither are most BRfites and you just wrote it casually like others do so often. But read this line again and see if it should have been even written by a senior member like yourself---

"This $ 4 billion deal was a baksheesh thrown to Fra - no more Rafales, IAF makes ready for Typhoon"

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Jul 2011 21:23

One way to look how bad the deal is, for this amount, we could have baught brand new 51 SU30MKI (more capable than 51 upgraded mirages) and kept our 51 un upgraded mirages.
How much money Rajmata needs to fleece India?
Sheesh