Bharat Rakshak

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 20:06**

The above two posts of rajesh and mahadev ignore the fact of gyroscope principle of self preservation of original aka status quo
to that extent the strident and militant version of evangelical forces spurting into action

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 21:27**

pentaiah wrote:The above two posts of rajesh and mahadev ignore the fact of gyroscope principle of self preservation of original aka status quo
to that extent the strident and militant version of evangelical forces spurting into action

Not necessarily. Do the EJs bother about the gyroscope of Hindu status-quoism in India? You've got to admire the way they waltz into a foreign country with their own agenda, which they ruthlessly pursue, thumbing their noses at the establishment (not that it takes much courage to thumb your nose at the Indian establishment, if you know which palms to grease). Their level of field research is actually commendable.

If Xtianity could take on the establishment in cultures like Scandinavia, Ruthenia (Russia), Germania, Gallia, even Greece and Italy starting 1000 BC, and further in S. Korea and Indonesia in the present day, what's to prevent SD from doing the same? Let's not underestimate the power of persuasion that enabled Ashoka's missionaries to overcome resistance in China, Japan, Korea, and Mongolia.

European cultures lost out to an Asian tradition (Xtianity is of Asian origin, never forget). If you look at the world today, it is dominated by Asian traditions, all the way from Santiago to Tokyo, from Alaska to New South Wales, and everywhere in between. The only East vs. West distinction, is between the East Asian (Dharmic) tradition, and the West Asian (Abrahamic) tradition. Everything else has bitten the dust. The East Asian tradition can prevail over the West Asian one.

OT here. I've been promising for a while, that I'll have more to say on all this in an appropriate thread. Soon, very soon.

Edit: My bad. I meant 1000 AD, not 1000 BC.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 21:33**

sudarshan wrote:
European cultures lost out to an Asian tradition (Xtianity is of Asian origin, never forget).

The real fact is that there is nothing called as the west. There is only one system worldwide

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 22:08**

Deleted as
does not belong here in this thread

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 22:19**

[quote="pentaiah"][/quote]

Is there a better thread for this? We could continue this discussion there (if anybody's interested).

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 22:54**

shiv wrote:
I predict that this will last for a maximum of one generation. Once a child is born and grows up in the US - he becomes American and his attitudes will change. I have seen that happening among Brits and I know children of 1st gen Indians who emigrated to Britain in the 60s. The children are in their late 30s/early 40s and are Brits to the core and display all the supercilious contempt that white Brits have stopped showing so as to be PC. And I see it happening in Indian American kids.

It is only the generation of Indians who migrated to the US who can be relied on to love India. Not their children. At best those children will be neutral/unconcerned about India. Or they will play for "US interests", as is their right, and it will be the same as now.

I think we should ask ourselves, why do we consider US and Western dominance of India, and the accompanying shift of erstwhile Indic humans into the US orbit as a permanent phenomenon for all time, while implicitly ruling out the possibility of flow in the reverse direction?

Diffusion is always a two-directional thing. External controls and material properties determine which direction predominates. US dominance in the Indo-US relationship is due to conscious identification and manipulation of the controls by US , abetted by passive acquiescence by India. I want BRF/India to eschew passivity, study, understand and learn to manipulate the controls and work to reverse the flow. The motivation for doing this is that that (Indic dominance) is the proper dharmic order of things. This being kaliyuga, this won't happen by itself, but requires infusion of attention and energy.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 22:57**

KLNMurthy wrote:
Diffusion is always a two-directional thing. External controls and material properties determine which direction predominates. US dominance in the Indo-US relationship is due to conscious identification and manipulation of the controls by US , abetted by passive acquiescence by India. I want BRF/India to eschew passivity, study, understand and learn to manipulate the controls and work to reverse the flow. The motivation for doing this is that that (Indic dominance) is the proper dharmic order of things. This being kaliyuga, this won't happen by itself, but requires infusion of attention and energy.

Great post.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:00**

sudarshan wrote:
pentaiah wrote:
Is there a better thread for this? We could continue this discussion there (if anybody's interested).

+1
it could be tentatively called "reversing evangelism"

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:27**

Post soosided

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:36**

KLNMurthy wrote:
shiv wrote: I predict that this will last for a maximum of one generation. Once a child is born and grows up in the US - he becomes American and his attitudes will change. I have seen that happening among Brits and I know children of 1st gen Indians who emigrated to Britain in the 60s. The children are in their late 30s/early 40s and are Brits to the core and display all the supercilious contempt that white Brits have stopped showing so as to be PC. And I see it happening in Indian American kids.It is only the generation of Indians who migrated to the US who can be relied on to love India. Not their children. At best those children will be neutral/unconcerned about India. Or they will play for "US interests", as is their right, and it will be the same as now.

Many generations of RNIs have lived and exploited India yet they have no love for India or anything Indian. Not only this, the children of the soil,Indians themselves have to be careful in not asserting their own identity,rights and love the Motherland lest they offend the RNIs. You can still sing Vande Matram and celebrate the land etc without anyone objecting to it, feeling annoyed , hurt or claiming to be against the religion etc.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:37**

KLNMurthy wrote: +1
it could be tentatively called "reversing evangelism"

Should I do the honors, in the GDF? I had a practical, three-point agenda in mind.

However, it might be a day or two before I can get to posting this.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:41**

Diffusion is always a two-directional thing. External controls and material properties determine which direction predominates. US dominance in the Indo-US relationship is due to conscious identification and manipulation of the controls by US , abetted by passive acquiescence by India. I want BRF/India to eschew passivity, study, understand and learn to manipulate the controls and work to reverse the flow. The motivation for doing this is that that (Indic dominance) is the proper dharmic order of things. This being kaliyuga, this won't happen by itself, but requires infusion of attention and energy.

I saw a video lecture of Rajiv Malhotra, he was discussing his book "Being Different", in that he discusses a term he defines - "digestion". He says during this digestion a partial mapping takes place, this partial mapping of concepts is not complete as there could be no parallel in another culture, he gives examples of concepts of shakti, atman, yoga. What happens is that the original concept is lost, they get replaced by lesser and impure concepts which nullify or dilute the original concept. This is what exactly happens when American culture takes Indian concepts and makes them theirs, and who is to gain and who is to loose in that? and not just that there is a huge thread on AIT, ask also why AIT now is such a pain in arse, the answer is subversion, subversion of culture, history and past and do we need that? think Christian yoga...

It's fine if the interest to understand is genuine, what if the intention to understand is subversion? please dont say it is CT, we already have this AIT.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:48**

Jhujar wrote:
shiv wrote: I predict that this will last for a maximum of one generation. Once a child is born and grows up in the US - he becomes American and his attitudes will change. I have seen that happening among Brits and I know children of 1st gen Indians who emigrated to Britain in the 60s. The children are in their late 30s/early 40s and are Brits to the core and display all the supercilious contempt that white Brits have stopped showing so as to be PC. And I see it happening in Indian American kids.It is only the generation of Indians who migrated to the US who can be relied on to love India. Not their children. At best those children will be neutral/unconcerned about India. Or they will play for "US interests", as is their right, and it will be the same as now.
Many generations of RNIs have lived and exploited India yet they have no love for India or anything Indian. Not only this, the children of the soil,Indians themselves have to be careful in not asserting their own identity,rights and love the Motherland lest they offend the RNIs. You can still sing Vande Matram and celebrate the land etc without anyone objecting to it, feeling annoyed , hurt or claiming to be against the religion etc.

You know, sometimes I wonder if we aren't a bit too quick to identify what we perceive as hostile attitudes. There's this second generation Indian I know in the US. His parents keep dissing India, saying they'll never go back there, trying to get his aged grandma over to the US. They are motel owners (guess which state they're from), and he tells me about their (negative) attitudes towards Indian customers, as opposed to the sophisticated American customers. The guy himself chases after blondes, and non-Indian brunettes.

This guy has a Hindu name, of which he's proud (though he mangles the pronunciation). He's also a proud Hindu, and tries to educate his American friends about Hinduism (though his explanations and pronunciations often make me laugh - to myself of course). He laughs at his American friends when they get food-poisoning, telling them that Indian stomachs are more robust.

Conflicted character? Hardly. I think the conflict is in India herself. I think this guy's attitudes towards India are reflective of two things - the current dirt and squalor, and the undeniable past glory. If modern India cleaned herself up, which way do you think the second/third generation Indians in the USA would tend? Food for thought.

Posted: **12 Jul 2012 23:59**

deleted as does not belong in this thread

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 00:48**

When a gora violates Indian visa rule, GoI should blacklist the organization and individuals who sponsored visa for the gora, for not informing GoI about this violation.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 00:53**

sudarshan wrote:
Conflicted character? Hardly. I think the conflict is in India herself. I think this guy's attitudes towards India are reflective of two things - the current dirt and squalor, and the undeniable past glory. If modern India cleaned herself up, which way do you think the second/third generation Indians in the USA would tend? Food for thought.

Can you explain more

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:04**

Acharya wrote:
sudarshan wrote:
Conflicted character? Hardly. I think the conflict is in India herself. I think this guy's attitudes towards India are reflective of two things - the current dirt and squalor, and the undeniable past glory. If modern India cleaned herself up, which way do you think the second/third generation Indians in the USA would tend? Food for thought.
Can you explain more

Basically, I think the negative attitudes (towards India) of kids of Indians who make the USA their home, come in large part from the filth and poverty that they see (or hear about) in India. If they didn't keep constantly hearing/seeing the poverty and filth, their attitudes would change to curiosity. And curiosity in India mostly leads to identification with and respect for her phenomenal past.

The "seeing filth and poverty" part could be corrected if India made progress materially. The "hearing" part is more ingrained in the attitudes of Americans, but that too could change if the basic image of a poverty-ridden India was no longer taken for granted.

Hope I'm making sense here.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:08**

Folks let the discussion on EJs be moved else where before the UAV fire the missiles.
I am deleting my responses now.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:27**

Basically, I think the negative attitudes (towards India) of kids of Indians who make the USA their home, come in large part from the filth and poverty that they see (or hear about) in India. If they didn't keep constantly hearing/seeing the poverty and filth, their attitudes would change to curiosity. And curiosity in India mostly leads to identification with and respect for her phenomenal past.

The "seeing filth and poverty" part could be corrected if India made progress materially. The "hearing" part is more ingrained in the attitudes of Americans, but that too could change if the basic image of a poverty-ridden India was no longer taken for granted.

A constant negative portrayal of India as a land of snake charmers and as a land of slum dog millionaires is always done by the west. Filth and poverty is always there everywhere. US too has filth and poverty, go to Bronx, to the Native American reservations. They own the media and narration, but telling the kids about India is our responsibility. If it weren't for raping of India by the Islamists and then the Brits for hundreds of years we would have maintained the streak of having one of the best GDPs in the world from 1AD to 1700 (till the coming of Brits). Now if you don't tell the kids that but agree with them, the blame goes to you for feeding them wrong information. Right education has to imparted by the parents. It is their responsibility.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:50**

venug wrote:.... Now if you don't tell the kids that but agree with them, the blame goes to you for feeding them wrong information. Right education has to imparted by the parents. It is their responsibility.

True, Venug. But then, the parents themselves are taken in by the barrage of negative propaganda.

What I was saying in my original post was, that this guy (2nd gen Indian) I know, despite his parents' overwhelming negative vibes on India, still feels proud of his Hindu heritage. So let's not assume that all is lost, and that we can expect nothing from 2nd or 3rd gen Indians abroad. No need to write them off as a dead loss - a lot of them do retain some measure of Indic pride. There's shades and shades to this love-hate relationship that India evokes in most people (of Indian origin, or otherwise).

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:54**

^^ I guess it depends on what the statistics entail. One or two examples (of any phenomenon) are not useful.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 01:55**

venug wrote:
Basically, I think the negative attitudes (towards India) of kids of Indians who make the USA their home, come in large part from the filth and poverty that they see (or hear about) in India. If they didn't keep constantly hearing/seeing the poverty and filth, their attitudes would change to curiosity. And curiosity in India mostly leads to identification with and respect for her phenomenal past.

The "seeing filth and poverty" part could be corrected if India made progress materially. The "hearing" part is more ingrained in the attitudes of Americans, but that too could change if the basic image of a poverty-ridden India was no longer taken for granted.
A constant negative portrayal of India as a land of snake charmers and as a land of slum dog millionaires is always done by the west. Filth and poverty is always there everywhere. US too has filth and poverty, go to Bronx, to the Native American reservations. They own the media and narration, but telling the kids about India is our responsibility. If it weren't for raping of India by the Islamists and then the Brits for hundreds of years we would have maintained the streak of having one of the best GDPs in the world from 1AD to 1700 (till the coming of Brits). Now if you don't tell the kids that but agree with them, the blame goes to you for feeding them wrong information. Right education has to imparted by the parents. It is their responsibility.

At least for those in Americas, Hindu American is clear identity one can give to the kids. Indian-American becomes tertiary identity after religion and language but as Indian-American as primary identity makes them ABCDs regardless of portrayal of India. Yes, it is responsibility of parent ultimately. If parents themselves are confused and esp with psec-ness they might have been brain-washed in India, their kids grow in sorrow state and get all bad attitudes.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 02:19**

abhishek_sharma wrote:^^ I guess it depends on what the statistics entail. One or two examples (of any phenomenon) are not useful.

That's my point. Don't get emotional and write any demographic off as a dead-loss. Look for your chance and use it ("you" in general terms here - not you in particular). If you win the most receptive elements of the target demographic over to your side, gradually, other segments of the demographic will become more receptive. Which ties in with the posts above, on educating Americans on India and Hinduism.

Do the tactics above sound familiar? Think where you might have encountered them before

.

I think lobbying for a separate category for Indian-descent people in the USA would be productive. Right now, Indians don't belong in this artificial "Asian" category (which seems like it was deliberately created to exclude Indians). "Other" doesn't quite cut it.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 06:41**

There are many Indian Americans in US who bad mouth India, and yet there are many more who criticize things that are wrong with India. Yet, both sides never forget their roots. Now here is the problem, I recall I had participated in Aug 15 India Day Parade in NYC [after Shakti Tests] and I was marching with Hindu Student Council, I saw few Indian college kids from Columbia University holding banners, criticizing India going nuclear, holding banners calling BJP a facist party etc. I stopped and challenged these individuals and they way they spoke they all had accent, I could tell they are not second or 3rd generation.

Their arguments were leftist, full of communist thinking, that I literally told them why don't they go back to India and do what they are doing here? And I bet you they will have more audience in India then even in China.

1] the entire education system in India is designed to brainwash our children
2] to this day no Indian has challenged the Indian Constitution using the word "secular, socialist republic". If we the people have right to freedom of religion, why was there a need to include the word "secular"? If we are free to decide on our form of gov't, why is it already decided for us that we are "socialist"?
3] even today the Hindu civilization, its teachings, its past is ridiculed by the leftist educated class of India. Today in India if you are doing a PHD, you have to do it under certain guidelines, and thought process. I dare you to do a PHD on how leftism and Communist thinking has destroyed India, and see where you get.

This is just few examples I have given. We Indian Americans have the right to criticize what is wrong with India. I can tell you with first hand experience, I want the same way of life that Americans have for my fellow Indians. Sitting outside and looking into India, I see no reason why it cannot be done. Gujrat is perfect example of what India can be. A simple formula that is used in US has been used by Narendra Modi. He gives protection, and makes sure law is enforced, thus giving Indians [natural capitalists] the environment to be progressive.

When we talk to fellow Americans from all walks of life, we don't shy away from what is bad in India, and we highlight the positives of India too, especially Gujrat. And we teach our young ones, values from back home and the values of our adopted land.

Isn't it a surprise that even Shri Vajpayee asked, "why is it that Indians outside India flourish and are a success story but back home they are not". I remember one elderly gentleman got up and replied, " The world is practical Vajpayee Ji".

As I have always said, don't blame US for our problems, we ourselves are to blame of the state of Shit that we are in. I read Mr. KNL Murthy's posts and I agree with the man, he is right on the money.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 07:01**

Welcome back Deepan Gill

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 08:55**

when you live outside India, you are forced to deal with issues. every day is a battlefield. everyday there is pressure on your identity. what are you? who are you? what should you be? these questions need answers. you interact with local population, their culture, their rituals/customs, and everything you see you try to compare and contrast it with what you've "inherited". there is a constant battle to define yourself.

in India, this struggle doesn't exist. and on top of that, in India, there are idiots everywhere who claim that everything is Maya/Mithya, and "God will take care of everything...all these 'mundane' things are immaterial and temporary", and the assorted escapist nonsense.

when you are "outside" - you don't have such excuses, b/c you don't have the luxury of falling back on "herd" mentality. you don't have the luxury of escapism and laziness. you are forced to deal with these issues, and come up with answers that satisfy you. this is a mental battle that shapes identity and long-term ideology.

of course, many Indians, in their arrogance and presumptive superiority, derogatorily call these foreign-born/grown-up individuals "ABCD's" ("American Born Confused Desis"). I know b/c in a recent interaction with a "proper" Indian about fair-and-lovely and skin whitening powders, the guy got exhausted and had no rational reply to my argument and ended up falling back on the escapism route and calling me an "ABCD".

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 11:33**

to this day no Indian has challenged the Indian Constitution using the word "secular, socialist republic". If we the people have right to freedom of religion, why was there a need to include the word "secular"? If we are free to decide on our form of gov't, why is it already decided for us that we are "socialist"?

These were put into the preamble during the emergency - 42nd amendment by dienasty forcing a rubber stamp parliament to do it.

When the other guys did the 44th amendment post emergency to expunge the ill effects of the 42nd amendment they retained this.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 13:52**

>>European cultures lost out to an Asian tradition (Xtianity is of Asian origin, never forget).

Wrong.

Xnism as a religion may have an Asian as a figurehead god, but it is the old Roman empire through and through, including the memes, iconography, concepts (god dying and rising, etc), control structure (church), promotional materials (miracles), austerities (celibacy for priests, as in RCC), etc.

Xnism was developed to help the emperor consolidate his power, which the old religions were not able to do. It is telling that Constantine made three religions the official religions of the empire - Sun worship (European), Xnism (Semitic/Arab), and Mithraism (Persian). It was designed to garner maximum support for him.

That only Xnism survived is proof of how seductive it is. In both Mithraism and Sun worship, the individuals are expected to take responsibility for their lives. However, Xnism promotes the idea that you can give up responsibility for your actions and get forgiveness for some token penances prescribed by the father. This is very attractive to a certain class of people. Therein lies the key to its longevity.

Posted: **13 Jul 2012 16:13**

Lot of strong herbs are being smoked in this thread.

A significant portion of ancient india was infected with this "culture exchange" phenomenon. A right amount of sense was knocked into indians after the fall of the buddhist school of thought with the rise of vedic school of thought.

There's an important lesson in history for all indians. The word "hindu" didn't become a geographic term instantly. Everything related to this geographic term is meant to be strictly sub-continental also. Understand the importance of polytheism in hinduism before you blur the line between it and monotheism.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 05:45**

The continuing anti-Indian mouthings by Obama are a kick up the nether end to the grovelling regime of mendicant Singh & co.,purveyors of snake-oil (US made)! His latest, denigrating India's growth,indicates that our appeasement of US strategic interests and selling off the family silver to US MNCs has cost us dearly.The rupee has been effectively devalued by 15%,forex reserves are evaporating at great speed and the US is armtwisting us to commit harakiri over oil supplies from Iran.Unfortunately our lackeys of the moment of the GOI,still lust after whippings from their US slavers showing their utter lack of any self-respect for either individual or country.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 06:42**

@KLNMurthy & mahadevbhu ^^^

+1

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 07:10**

However, Xnism promotes the idea that you can give up responsibility for your actions and get forgiveness for some token penances prescribed by the father.

The church will tell you that indulgences were not for sale and could not be bought a priori.

Praying for the big christians (pope) is said to relieve time in purgatory.

How much more so demolishing and killing non-believers. Now evangelists do the correct thing by christianity, idolators demonstrate the impotence of their totems and need to be destroyed or converted.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 07:31**

KLNMurthy wrote:
I think we should ask ourselves, why do we consider US and Western dominance of India, and the accompanying shift of erstwhile Indic humans into the US orbit as a permanent phenomenon for all time, while implicitly ruling out the possibility of flow in the reverse direction?

Diffusion is always a two-directional thing. External controls and material properties determine which direction predominates. US dominance in the Indo-US relationship is due to conscious identification and manipulation of the controls by US , abetted by passive acquiescence by India. I want BRF/India to eschew passivity, study, understand and learn to manipulate the controls and work to reverse the flow. The motivation for doing this is that that (Indic dominance) is the proper dharmic order of things. This being kaliyuga, this won't happen by itself, but requires infusion of attention and energy.

Ironically you speak like an Indian here and I am showing a cynical short term "western" attitude. I leave you to your views because there is no sense in pitting my political-current day-practical argument against your long term philosophical one. They cannot meet until they meet. The funny thing is that 90% of the time I find the Indian view to be long term philosophical and the American view to be "What's in it for me NOW because in the long term we are all dead". On this forum most critiques of India and admiring observations about America revolve around exactly this difference in outlook.

If Indians are going to influence America, show me the money. Let the US stop supplying deadly arms to the Pakistan armed forces.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 12:18**

^^ Shivji, the money is already there;

At the macro, govt. to govt. level--
1. FMS sales to the Indian armed forces.
2. Nuclear deal.
3. Abu Jundali and other Intelligence gathering and sharing.

etc. etc.

On the Micro level--
America is VERY pro India. It takes two hands to clap, and one country's support and proclivity for the other does NOT go unrequited. People to people contact is very high between the US and India, and peoples views on issues are also similar. There are thousands of little things that the positive view of India, help Americans make a pro Indian decision. This is in the fields of business and academia and I have seen it and been part of it myself.

On a personal note; when I took the names of my Alma Maters:- one ivy leaguish institution and one of the IITs, it used to always get me very positive responses. IIT clearly had a MIT like regard in the US Uni I went to; kids that went to IITB on exchange program came back and paid homage to the rigor of the IITs (but at the same time said that, that particular US univ was better in terms of practical lab work {true}). So awareness and high regard for Indian institutions on a personal, day to day basis is there! Also note the high regard for letters of recommendation, etc. from Indian professors, ease of entry to US universities, visa issues as compared to China etc.

Inter-company cooperation is high and movement of people across boundaries is easy. In this matter, the US and India act as one country. Management standards are high in both places, communication patterns are easy in English, laws are related, and financial systems are understandable. Note the very high number of Indians in American business.

The nature of the beast in America;
And, with the Americans, one did get the nuclear deal help and support, and now they are grooming us to be their pals and future benign overlords...BUT-BUT-BUT...one has to understand that the US is NEVER going to be as unselfish as the former Soviet Union; a la; delivering the ‘Karachi gun boats’ before we ever paid for them.

The average American is HIGHLY self-centered and selfish and self-absorbed. Refer to the Geert-Hofstede index of cultural dimensions; they show the Anglo cultures to rate the highest on the cultural dimension of individualism. This means that they think of themselves first and foremost, and their own interest. That’s what has gotten them so far, the sum, the net mass of wealthy, self-centered, aggressive businessmen, adding up to be the world’s leading country. That’s fine.

But you have to understand that the nature of the US government is also going to reflect the nature of the people themselves. When the average American fails to act in accordance with the wishes of others, and is intensely, stunningly independent, how can we expect the American government to behave magnanimously in the Indian fashion? It is never going to be an elder brother in the traditional Indian sense.

Barack Obama, in one of his earlier election speeches, spoke about “guarding American interests abroad”; Hillary Clinton actually went to Calcutta to reason with Mamata Banerjee to have the multi brand retail reforms to move forward; Obama today in an interview with the PTI again mentioned the same issue. Well, their domestic markets are drying up, and they want to sell us stuff, and make their money. They’re hard-nosed businessmen and merchants, and they want our cooperation and friendship such as long as they can make profits on selling us things.

The Indian American relationship is going to be a transactional one, like most of the relationships that American people have amongst themselves! Please don’t expect them to give us bargain basement prices on the F 16s, not sell F 16s to our enemies, etc. The Americans are enormously commerce oriented; they will never do anything that hurts their sales. They currently supply both Israel and Egypt with weapons; if they had a choice, they would supply both India and China and laugh all the way to the bank. The only thing that I foresee happening is that like the Egypt-Israel situation, we will be supplied the better weapons of the lot, our future thermonuclear testing will be overlooked, we will be cooperating with them in very high tech defense related R&D, terrorism related work, army training mechanisms, cyber warfare techniques, which they will not cooperate with, with most other nations.

It is best that we learn from them, cooperate with them as we can, being mindful of our interests as much as possible, but while being diplomatic and pleasant enough to the comity of nations so as to not offend their sensibilities. The best we will get out of them is the smooth allowance of international transactional behavior. Inter-governmental cooperation. The presence of regular communication channels across governments, institutions and people. We shall not get unnatural generosity and we should not expect it either.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 12:30**

KLNMurthy wrote:

This being kaliyuga, this won't happen by itself, but requires infusion of attention and energy.

It will. We are people too. We can see the scoreboard. As it moves from 100-20 in favour of america, to 100:100 and then to 100:150 in favour of India, economically, we will automatically treat the US, first as an equal, then as a junior, then later as a pawn.

America did this to the UK. We will do it to them. Its a given, natural thing.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 12:38**

shiv wrote: ...

Ironically you speak like an Indian here and I am showing a cynical short term "western" attitude. I leave you to your views because there is no sense in pitting my political-current day-practical argument against your long term philosophical one. They cannot meet until they meet. The funny thing is that 90% of the time I find the Indian view to be long term philosophical and the American view to be "What's in it for me NOW because in the long term we are all dead". On this forum most critiques of India and admiring observations about America revolve around exactly this difference in outlook.

If Indians are going to influence America, show me the money. Let the US stop supplying deadly arms to the Pakistan armed forces.

Hopefully all on BRF are on the same team, playing different roles or trying to define a role for themselves.

For whatever it is worth I am an Indian. I am comfortable with it and won't pit my "Indian score" versus anyone else's. So, if I happen to do any thinking, it will ipso facto be "Indian" thinking.

Both short-term and long-term thinking need to exist and be nurtured and mutually reconciled for reaching the ultimate goal.

What you call my "Indian" thinking comes from efforts to make sense of seeming complacency of otherwise intelligent GOI babus; you have yourself hammered on the logic underlying Indian choices, as compared to American expedient thinking and the illusion of American power. When arguments or analyses make sense, they have a way of influencing thought and opinion.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 12:50**

nvishal wrote:Lot of strong herbs are being smoked in this thread.

A significant portion of ancient india was infected with this "culture exchange" phenomenon. A right amount of sense was knocked into indians after the fall of the buddhist school of thought with the rise of vedic school of thought.

There's an important lesson in history for all indians. The word "hindu" didn't become a geographic term instantly. Everything related to this geographic term is meant to be strictly sub-continental also. Understand the importance of polytheism in hinduism before you blur the line between it and monotheism.

I am somewhat unclear on what you are driving at here. One can't be "for" or "against" culture exchange and diffusion; it happens naturally. At most we can understand it and try to grasp the levers of the process.

In principle, polytheism coupled with political power should always be able to absorb monotheism, provided the power is structured in a distributed way and there is no perceived need for a high degree of centralized control.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 13:11**

mahadevbhu wrote:one has to understand that the US is NEVER going to be as unselfish as the former Soviet Union; a la; delivering the ‘Karachi gun boats’ before we ever paid for them.

That made sense for the Soviets when the name of the game was expanding influence in order to at any cost in order to diplomatically isolate the West.

By the end of the Cold War a lot of Russians were bitter about the resources they lavished on countries around the world for very little return. It was economically unsustainable and when push came to shove, the Russians were alone.

There's a reason the way Russia does business now is so radically different from the Cold War - i.e. transactional. They're some of the toughest capitalists out there now.

The Chinese went through the same transformation ten years before the Russians. They used to shower their 'friends' with free weapons in Mao's time. Post Mao, they've charged.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 13:20**

India has issues with the US too
Yashwant Raj, Hindustan Times
Washington, July 16, 2012
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 89762.aspx
First Published: 09:35 IST(16/7/2012)

If India needs to do more on economic reforms, New Delhi would want to see the US ease restrictions on professional visas and scale down rhetoric against outsourcing.
A recent study of US immigration service data showed India hit the hardest by an overall increase in rejection/denial

of visas to professionals under L-1B and H-1B categories.
The decline, showed the study by the National Foundation for American Policy, started with Obama taking charge at the White House in early 2009.

Till 2008, the year before Obama took office, L-1B rejection for India -- 2.8% -- was similar to those of other high yield countries such as China, Japan and Germany.

Rejection rates for Indians shot up the next year -- in 2009, the first year or Obama's presidency -- eight-fold to 22.5% from 2.8% the previous year, the study showed.

Denials went up for most other countries also, but stayed within a range of 4.1% to 5.9%. India was up there at the top, with Mexico for company.

"Data indicate much of the increase in denials involves Indian-born professionals and researchers,? said the national foundation's study released in Febrduay.

The US maintains that India remains the largest beneficiary of visas under the two categories, but that has not mollified either the industry or the government.

A senior commerce ministry official said earlier India was contemplating taking the issue to the World Trade Organisation. It hasn't done that yet though.

The $70 billion-offshoring industry in India has also watched with rising alarm this administration's stand against outsourcing with tax incentives for companies bringing back jobs.

It is a now a raging campaign issue too with the Obama campaign accusing the presumptive Republican nominee Mitt Romney of being a "pioneer of outsourcing? .

The reference is to Romney's tenure at the head of the private equity from Bain Capital. His campaigns arguing the offshoring happened after Romney had left the company.

Posted: **16 Jul 2012 16:52**

+1
it could be tentatively called "reversing evangelism"

I tell everybody in USA that comes across me asking me about my religion (sikh) . I tell them that even as I am a Sikh I do see Jesus Christ as an equal to Guru Nanak or Ramchandra or Krishna (a great hero). Which is truth as per my Dharma. "Devan Kao Aike Bhagwan" i.e. "Many Devtas (nobles Dharmic people) but one God" and once this ice is broken most people are appreciative that I took care to explain this.

Bharat Rakshak

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