Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014

[Anujan]

There is more to this Riyadh Jeddah story.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/555381

Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) has rejected news reports that it landed a plane by mistake in Jeddah rather than Riyadh. Zain Rizwi, a PIA official at King Abdul Aziz International Airport, said on Monday that the flight landed as per schedule in Jeddah, and Riyadh-bound passengers were transported by bus to the capital city....The passengers were later transported by bus from Jeddah to Riyadh, a distance of 961 km. The PIA arranged and paid for the bus trip, the reports stated.

So passengers buy ticket to Riyadh, PIA flight takes them half way to Jeddah and then they arrange a bus to travel the remaining 1000 odd km

The plane was either transporting some important personality or important maal

[ramana]

The latter.

[Cosmo_R]

Birth registration : Just a click away

His sons are among those 60 million Pakistani children, who due to a sheer lazy attitude or lack of awareness about the importance of birth registration among parents are deprived of their legal identity. According to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), every year 4.5 million births take place in Pakistan of which 3 million are not officially recorded. Which means these children have a name and an existence but currently do not have a legal identity or a nationality.

Pakistan's Population Clock

Estimated Population of Pakistan on Apr 14, 2014 : 186,336,265


Thus the Estimated Population of Pakistan is 246,333,265

We breed as rabbits, we die like vermin

Cheers

We need the ROP to convince them that 186,336,265 lemmings can't be wrong. It is the will you know of whom.

[Gerard]

Pakistan national bird controlled by USAF TFTA types?

CIA's Pakistan drone strikes carried out by regular US air force personnel

[partha]

http://www.dawn.com/news/1099885

The gap is back

none of these crises indicates a military intention to send the government home. The environment just isn’t suitable and the military realises this perhaps better than the civilians — and the anchors.

And last, the media will continue to be used as the battleground on which this tug of power will be played out. This is one case where the media is not a ‘stakeholder’ but simply a tool being used — for the agenda it is helping to further is not of its own making.

OK, coup ain't happening anytime soon. Save your popcorn. Probably after US withdrawal from Afghanistan.

[joygoswami]

Can someone please arrange for this b***** channel to be brought down !!?? Just look at the content.

http://www.dailymotion.com/Rashedoon

copy+paste link.

[shiv]

Pick almost any functioning country in the world. It does not matter whether the country is a democracy or not.

One finds that the country has some sort of government or leadership and the country has some system to keep the people under control. People may choose to remain under control because they are happy and loyal to the nation. Alternatively the people may be kept suppressed by a despotic regime. In every case there is a police force to enforce national policies and if the police force fails there is a better armed force - such as the regular armed forces to or some designated well armed group to control disorder.

So you find that if there are massive civil disturbances that the police cannot control, the army can be asked to step in and ensure that the government's writ is enforced. In Pakistan this is just not happening. In areas like Karachi (10% of Pakistan's population), or Quetta, Peshawar and a whole lot of smaller towns the incidents of violent killing is very high. Each event need to involve the police who will investigate, search and bring the guilty to justice. The police in Pakistan are not doing it. Funnily enough, the army is not stepping in either, and "civilian government" is unable to get the army to come out and control the mayhem and disorder.

If you look at the past history of Pakistan, the army has taken control at times when there has been little real civil disorder - only army dissatisfaction at a civilian government. That the civil governments were never performing to everyone's satisfaction is a separate issue - but the army had no business stepping in because they were never "saving" Pakistan from anything. This history is itself one of a badly and partially governed state, but at that time there was no formal civil war and the army was able to dominate any civilians who were armed and rebellious - be they Baluchis or shias of Gilgit.

But now there is an active civil war in progress in Baluchistan and in Pasthun lands. There is rampant terrorism with regular bomb blasts in Peshawar, Quetta and other areas. Waziristan is a no go area for the Army and Karachi is not under control of the government or army. This is a situation in which a normal nation would not have got into. There should have been a clamp down on violence long ago - long before it got to this stage. Right now, let alone the police forces, the army too is unable to control the violence. There are enough small arms and ammunition to last several decades. Rebel groups are getting funds from madrassas via hawala from the gulf, by kidnapping, extortion and drugs.

The only place where the Pakistan army has complete control is the Indian border. Pakistan is now a strip of land up to the Indus and its tributaries. The only border that is protected with the threat of nuclear weapons is again the border with India.

The government has no real control The funding of the Pakistani state comes from aid, borrowing and begging.

The Taliban and Baluch forces keep the Pakisani security forces on their toes but cannot dominate.

In this situation the US and the west, gulf states and China, who represent 80% of the UN security council and who need the Pakistani army for their own political and military ends insist that the only legitimate government in Pakistan is the civilian government, while they fund and bribe the army.

Why does India believe that the only legitimate Government in Pakistan is the civil government of limited power or the army, whose power again is limited. Why are we negotiating with the castrated civilian government of Pakistan as if it will bring some dividend. Have the Indian government and babus gone out of their minds? Every major country who deals with Pakistan gets some benefit in return from the group they deal with. They recognize and fund the army and civilain government and pretend that all is well - and indeed all is well for them. Every one of these countries is either getting mercenaries to fight their wars or are selling arms to Pakistan. They all gain from the charade they are playing.

But what's in it for India? There are too many weak power centers in Pakistan. Why are we even talking to the assholes in the Nawaz government? There is nothing to negotiate with the Pakistani army either. The army can only understand force which can be demonstrated by artillery bombardment at the border. We may not go so far as to de-recognize the Pakistani state - but we can question the credentials and power of any Pakistani entity who wants to negotiate with us. Up until now we seem to have blindly accepted as a mater of faith that we can negotiate with some moronic Paki entity that calls itself "the government". That is never worked and will never work because no one is in full control of the fragments that are together called Pakistan.

i agree that there is a problem. I agree that things are dangerous. But what successive Indian governments have done is totally useless because they have been too stupid to understand Pakistan and deal with it based on what we can see rather than what we hope.

If Pakistan gains from trade with us, why the fuk do we want them to gain anything at all?
If we want peace, we have not got any from Pakistan and are not likely to get any.
If Pakistan education is flawed about how India and Hindu are portrayed why aren't we telling them?
If Hindus are being tortured in Pakistan is it the case that Indian secularism would be damaged by India protesting on behalf of Hindus? Would Indian Muslims rebel and riot if we did that?
If Pakistanis are not implementing polio vaccination why is India not bitterly and vociferously critical? we have done the most work in eradication. We stand the most to lose.

I am expecting that the new government start looking at some of these things. Why can't we call a spade a spade and say that there is no one to negotiate with in Pakistan. No one can implement any agreement we might reach. We negotiate only with groups working on the premise that their power is limited. So we give them very little based on the little power they have. Why give "Pakistan" respect as a functioning state? There is nothing in it for India.

[AbhiJ]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 870466.ece

Mr. Bidhuri had reportedly told voters at an election meeting earlier in the week that “30 per cent of the country’s Muslims still harbour terrorists” and Narendra Modi must be made Prime Minister so that he can “teach both Pakistan and the U.S. a lesson”.

This caught my eye that BJP recognises the Khan support to Pakistani terrorism.

[partha]

I hope Modi keeps a distance from nut cases like Bidhuri. Teach US a lesson? What does that mean?

[shiv]

The US got assistance from Pakistan (from Yahya, military dictator) in building relations with China during the cold war. The fact that 3 million Hindus died in Bangladesh as a result is secondary - the US wanted and got that help. The US got help from Zia ul Haq (military dictator) in fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. The US got assistance from Musharraf (military dictator) to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The US pays off the Pakistani army. It is a transactional relationship - not a "cordial example of international amity". The US and EU both maintain a negative trade balance with Pakistan.

China gets help from Pakistan with regard to India and as a possible alternative route for oil (from Gwadar). here again it is the Pakistan armed forces that help China and only the armed forces and an associated business class are interested in helping China with Gwadar. Chinese workers are attacked, as is infrastructure in Baluchistan - so once again China is in a transactional relationship with the Pakistani army and there is no visible benefiit to Pakistan

The oil rich Islamic states are donors for Pakistan - they supply oil and give aid. They get sunni soldiers and a nuclear umbrella from Pakistan. Here again it is the Pakistan armed forces who are involved and the Pakistan armed forces who glen the biggest benefits in what is again a transactional relationship. The Gulf states do not give a damn about Pakis in general other than funding wahhabi clerics and madrassas.

None of these conutries gives a rats ass for the welfare of people in the area calleed Pakistan, or for Baluchis or Pashtuns or the people of Gilgit. they all sympathise with the Kashmir cause of Pakistan because Pakistan demands that as payment for services. Can we not understand this? Are Indian diplomats and so called "strategic thinkers" totally blind and deaf?

What does India get from the Pakistani army. Nothing other than death and threats. What does India get from any Pakistani civilian government? Absolutely nothing. What does India get from Pakistan? Zilch.

What is the exact reason for maintaining relations with this behen**od of a country? Have we no brains?

There is no entity that can help India. No Pakistani entity can make peace. No Pakistan entity can export anything worthwhile. No Pakistan entity can negotiate anything. No Pakistani entity han endorse and hold up an agreement. What the fuk were people like Manmohan Singh, Sushil Shinde, Mani Shankar Aiyar etc talking about when they said uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialog with "Pakistan"? What or who is Pakistan can give us anything useful?

Why are we not asking our government these questions?

[Johann]

For those who are trying to get a sense of what the 'state' means in Pakistan, and how it really works there is one book I'd *strongly* recommend.

Its a (barely) fictionalised account by a Karachi police officer published by Pan Macmillan India called 'The Prisoner' by Omar Shamid Hamid.

When it comes to the role of the state Pakistan is in some ways a lot like Mexico and Colombia in the bad years.

For all the chaos, at the local level throughout Pakistan there is an ecosystem, an order that runs on money. The politicians and the agencies are at the top of the food chain. That doesn't mean they control everything. It just means they get the biggest cuts of the profits, and they are the hardest to touch. The extent to which those big sharks rely on the state machinery to maintain their position depends on where you are in Pakistan. The civil state is weak in Karachi, but its another thing in the Punjab. The point is that there are hierarchies in both rural and urban Pakistan, and a system of power, favours and cash that all ties them together. Both the TTP and the PTI promise to destroy the existing system and replace it with something fairer. The TTP's promise is sharia, and the PTI's is inclusive development with a nationalist stance.

But thats not the only thing - while people despise the state, they don't necessarily despise the nation, except for the Baloch. 'Pakistani' may be a new identity but for all its contradictions its stuck and become something people, even those who are skeptical of its origin or necessity have grown up with and assimilated over three generations. The real fight is over what it means to be Pakistani, and that is where the TTP and the elites also clash.

In some ways Pakistan is a Neocons dream state - God, nation, and cash reign supreme while the state withers away. I don't think its safe to assume that because the state is in retreat the idea of the nation, or the social order is about to collapse.

[AbhiJ]

STRIP - Sunni Terrorists Reuniting Islamic Pakistan. (TTP Pakistan).

[Baikul]

Excellent and lucid posts by Shivji and Johann, highlighting different parts of the Bakistani problem. Johann is always good to read for his great and real world insights; Shivji, of course, is always a pleasure. Someone give that man a B(harat)R Ratna.

However, back to the naming debate - it just struck me, we're thinking about memes to describe Pakistan, but why exactly are we still calling it Pakistan? Why are we being forced by those guys to name them as they want us to name them?

In short -IMVHO- we should drop each and every reference to Pakistan and call it Bakistan from here on. Including thread titles, and not just BENIS.

It can raise a laugh but, for the faux- liberals who could (and will) challenge the term, it's actually real because that's how the Saudi Arabian pronounce it. It can create curiosity for the uninformed- what the heck is Bakistan, is it the same as...? It's an opportunity to educate people about 'P' and 'B', it highlights the Saudi (and subtly Sunni) connection. Very importantly it cannot be refuted by Pakjabis. In the long term, and most important of all, it trashes the idea of Pakistan and replaces it with a seeming parody.

So not just on BR, if you're emailing Ms Fair call it Bakistan, if you're on NPR, call it Bakistan, if you're writing a snarky post on Dawn.com, call it Bakistan, if you are willing to admit (as I am) what a great bowler Wasim Akram was, call him a great Bakistani bowler. And so on.

Also in short, forget Pakistan from here on. Bakistan baby (or papy) here we come.

Just a suggestion.

[Johann]

Continuing on the theme of the state (and I'm not talking about 'the nation' here).

One of the reasons the state is in retreat in Pakistan (as it is in many countries) is that its actually a bloody nuisance if you're very powerful.

It bothers you with laws and regulations. It wants you to pay taxes, and not pollute, and submit yourself to inspections. You're also not allowed to circumvent this through bribes or blackmail. In Pakistan it also wants you to not drink and fornicate. The list goes on.

But in the domestic sphere states are at their heart bureaucracies that want to tax you, and courts to try you for not giving the state its due, and police to enforce the will of both.

So the super privileged in Pakistan have chosen to let its civil state wither away while preserving the largely externally facing national security state. Internal security is kept just strong enough to defend the kind of political economy that everyone is enmeshed in, and preserve the military's special status from any domestic threat.

The upper and solid middle classes have gone along with this because just about everyone has someone in the family somewhere in the national security state. The lower middle classes have always had mixed feelings about the state.

So its important to understand this - the state in Pakistan isn't retreating because its failing. Its retreating because its retreat works in different ways for a lot of different sorts of people, including the lower middle class.

So no one gets taxed, and the state looks insolvent. A lot like Greece really. And like Greece, who picks up the tab? The international community, particularly the West. Its no longer just the military its funding. In fact as a proportion Western aid for social goods such as education and healthcare has markedly increased since 9/11, and it helps pay for expansion in state welfare like the Benazir Income Support Programme.

One of the things the regular state bureaucracy does is that it orders things, and makes them comprehensible, especially social and economic information. So the retreat of the state creates huge information voids but this actually affects the rest of the world more than it does the Pakistani ruling classes who are wired in and know the score.

Estimates of economic growth and employment generation depend on the state's ability to gather information, but here we have remarkable system where *nearly everyone* *grossly* lies about what they own and how much they earn, and this is supported and protected by the same political economy that runs the country.

The result is that the 'informal economy' and I don't mean drugs, I mean everything. Karachi is from some estimates the world's fastest growing city, which is thought to have something like doubled in size to 18 million people. That is one of the reasons the state cant possibly run it given the deliberate underinvestment in state capacity. But the remarkable thing is that the reason people keep moving to Karachi is that they can find work. And like most of the developing world, you start in the worst kind of slum, pay rent, and gradually work your way up to a slightly better slum, or improve your area. Everyone is an entrepreneur, even if a sizeable proportion of that entrepreneurship involves some kind of violence.

I said before there is a system, and it does generate profits - if a person is willing to serve and work that larger system, they can not only move classes, they can in a decade or two become appreciably rich however humbly they may start. Construction, transportation, wholesale in any commodity, politics, religion, security, moneylending, garments, restaurants, retail, influence brokering, all sort of things offer opportunity. Even education, which has become a major business. Charity (and not just the kind from foreign money) has become a business. Energy is about to become/ is becoming another area of major private enterprise. The fact is 180 million people even though many of them are terribly poor is still a major market.

So the condition of the 'total' Pakistani economy, and the stability of its political economy is not something that can be easily gauged. On the whole I don't think its as generally anywhere as bad as it looks from the outside. But even though Pakistan is rapidly urbanising I'd say the fundamental driver is still the agrarian economy in Punjab and Sindh - and that is where the question of water scarcity and climate change come in. That more than anything is what could and perhaps might upset the whole apple-cart. Of course that is likely to have huge regional, and not just national impacts.

[akashganga]

STRIP - Sunni Terrorists Reuniting Islamic Pakistan. (TTP Pakistan).

good one

[ramana]

Bill Maher last night on HBO called Bakistan full of crazy religious nuts with nukes. And there is consensus among US Presidents that Bakistan is what keeps them awake.

Yet they don't anything to get the nukes out of Bakistan for it keeps India in check. Another Republican Congressman form San Diego Duncan Hunter(?) piped in about keeping India in check.

And the fellow was born in 1976 and is a young one already in keepign India in check mantra!

Pakistan was never a state let alone a country.


Emma Duncan's "Breaking the Curfew" is still the book to read.
All are adaptations of it.
Ms Unfair would get educamated about TSP if she reads it.

[sudhan]

Railway minister trying to cover his mush from the TFTAs

Given Gen. RAWheel's recent statement of "Protecting the army's Echandee at all costs", I am guessing the khakis are preparing to make a "statement" to the civvies... the poor railway minister is just asking for it.. For his sake, I hope he downhill skied in private atleast..

If not, I strongly believe the minister has a date coming up pretty soon with..

a) A bunch of guys who lovingly cover his head in a black sack and punch him till he sees the milky way with his eyes closed.
b) A couple of masked guys serenading past his house on a motorbike, accidentally spilling bullets in the ministers direction.
c) A 'Mumtaz qadri' standing behind him with a MP5 pointed at the Honorable min's mush
d) A bearded gentleman with a handmade exclusive soosai-vest around his mush.
e) A bunch of locals wielding dandas and crowbars who find pages of the holy koran desecrated in his backyard.
f) A bit of all the above, to keep things fresh.

[member_22733]

Johann,

While you are trying to define Bakistan from a systems point of view, I think shiv is trying to redefine Bakistan from a transactional POV. From this POV it is only necessary to identify the levers of the system and use it to our end. Bakistan may or maynot remain a state, that should not concern us.

That Bakistan does not hurt our long term interests and security should be the primary concern. To that end any divisions in Bakistan should be exploited, all the levers pulled and anything and everything that creates a long term security risk should be exterminated without mercy. Our understanding of Bakistan therefore needs to be aware of these realities within that entity.

Also Bakistan is not as united as you make out to be. The Sindhis want to go their way just as much as the Balochis, so do the Pashtuns. Pashtuns have found a means to do so now through TTP. Sindhis need some encouragement. Ethnically Bakistan can be split into these territories plus PakJab. They will ofcourse all remain anti India (with maybe the exception of Balochis) but they will also be anti Pakjab.

All this IMVHO of course.

[shiv]

The result is that the 'informal economy' and I don't mean drugs, I mean everything. Karachi is from some estimates the world's fastest growing city, which is thought to have something like doubled in size to 18 million people. That is one of the reasons the state cant possibly run it given the deliberate underinvestment in state capacity. But the remarkable thing is that the reason people keep moving to Karachi is that they can find work. And like most of the developing world, you start in the worst kind of slum, pay rent, and gradually work your way up to a slightly better slum, or improve your area. Everyone is an entrepreneur, even if a sizeable proportion of that entrepreneurship involves some kind of violence.

Johann - not sure which country you live in but I suspect you would not want Karachi to be in your country.

It is easy to admire (in a very Paki manner) all that Karachi is touted to be. But the fact is that it is a city controlled by powerful factions, none of whom will bow to any state. In fact it serves as a conduit for everyone and everything. Fine. Social order has not collapsed in Karachi and is not about to collapse anywhere in Pakistan. But that is a specious statement. If the country that any of us lives in had the "social order" that Pakistan has, we would not want it. It is likely that Pakistanis too are "normal", like you and me and do not want the perfectly uncollapsed social order that you describe Pakistan as having.

The problem is the inability of the "state" to impose a social order that ensures security as a basic minimum. The kind of social order that exists is good only in a wild west sort of fashion - unhealthy for women, children and the old and infirm. The fallout of this romantic "everyone gets a job" society is a deterioration in education and health indices, a rise of population, and epidemics - not to mention the state's inability to impose schemes like polio vaccination for all children.

What all this boils down to is exactly what I have been saying all along. The entity which is recognised as the "government" does not govern and cannot govern, it is overshadowed by an armed force that is itself unable to control places and events. the point is not whether Pakistani society is about to break into chaos or collapse. These are over-dramatic expressions that simply ignore the fact that Pakistani society is already in a state of collapse. It can be argued that 15th century or 13th century societies too were 'stable" while having the same social indicators as Pakistani society today but that only means Pakistan is a failed nation.

As a failed nation, it is used by other countries as it suits them. For example the countries of the west desire for themselves a degree of prosperity and social order that is vastly different from that of Pakistan. Not for them the romance, opportunities and excitement of Karachi. If you "zoom out" at the world in general you find that the developed west have a social order that they seek to preserve, and preservation of their social order does not call for any changes in Pakistan. It does call for a charade, a game, a pretence that Pakistan is a coherent working nation. It's no skin off their balls that these descriptions are nonsense.

All that i am saying is that it is not in Indian interests to view Pakistan the way the west likes to see it - a viewpoint that allows them to pour in funds and arms and let Pakistanis help preserve their own unexciting, un-Karachi-like social order in Europe and the US. The pretence that the west makes about Pakistan suits them. It is high time India recognized that pretending that Pakistan is a country with a government controlling an army like any other nation only lulls Indians into hoodwinking themselves that there will one day be peace and trade like there is between France and Germany. If we Indians want that, we need to tell the truth to ourselves and other Indians and not be hoodwinked by the cute romantic picture you have painted of Pakistan.

The name "Pakistan" simply denotes an area of land to the west of the Indus and around the Indus that is overpopulated, violent and heading nowhere in a hurry. it is hardly one country with one language and one national anthem and one purpose. Saying that Pakistan is a nation searching for an identity is a white lie. It is several nations trying to search for their identities but being forced together by a quirk of fate that put Punjabis in charge of the twin tasks of suppressing all other nationalities while slaving for countries from the west that paid them good money for that.

Pakistan is several nations. The Disunited Nations of Pakistan would be a fair name. A highly desirable outcome would be to bring the fractious nations of Pakistan into being reborn as independent nation states.

[abhijitm]

There is no entity that can help India. No Pakistani entity can make peace. No Pakistan entity can export anything worthwhile. No Pakistan entity can negotiate anything. No Pakistani entity han endorse and hold up an agreement. What the fuk were people like Manmohan Singh, Sushil Shinde, Mani Shankar Aiyar etc talking about when they said uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialog with "Pakistan"? What or who is Pakistan can give us anything useful?

Why are we not asking our government these questions?

This is my understanding and I may be wrong.

Pakistan was created by certain elites for elites and so was "India". Bharat was what bharatiyas were wanted. But two sides of elites denied them. Some leaders opposed this division but their voice was too weak. British nurtured this elitism for many decades under British Raj. The west kept them under their influence. Eventually those elites split. The Indian side of elites created a kingdom called New Delhi, a realm that will rule bharat for many decades to come. Even after frictions and wars New Delhi elites never really cut off from pakistani elites. They know each other very well and their sympathy for each other always remain. It was the unknown of bharat that paki elites feared of and that unknown was carefully kept away from the New Delhi empire. These elites of New Delhi rule bharat with help from the west, through their elite universities (JNU etc), elite media, through fear and through sticking together, hoping Bharat never wakes up and take over. Only elites fear military takeover and not deep rooted democratic infrastructure. That is the reason why New Delhi is paranoid about Indian Army. Are we bharatiyas paranoid about the Army? Absolutely not! ridiculous to even think of! GoI is New Delhi empire and it is not OUR government. They are our lords and we are their commoners. They will never do what we bharatiyas think that they should do wrt pakistan.....unless somebody from bharat takes over New Delhi. LBS tried and more recently PVNR attempted it. The elites chewed him and threw away. Vajpayee, Advani, sushma, jasvant and the gang was never bharatiyas IMHO. They pledged their alliance with New Delhi. They are one of THEM.

It is this time the New Delhi elite empire is truly being challenged by a truly bharatiya and we are seeing the elite onslaught after onslaught, including their partners from the west. Here we have one bhartiya standing against all odds. Nobody in reality gives any damn about secularism. It is his bharatiya identity that is creating all this kolavari. Lets see what happens. Anyway, defeat of this elite empire is not possible by winning just one battle. There must be relentless march of baratiyas election after election. The day New Delhi's elite empire completely falls we will have our way of dealing with pakistan.

[Johann]

Lokesh, Shiv,

There are a lot of different discussion themes on this thread. Two of them are (a) how do things really work in Pakistan, and (b) can we see where things are going. Those are the particular ones I'm interested in participating in, both in terms of sharing and learning. Getting (b) right requires (a).

I think there's three different things here. Is the Pakistani state coherent? Not especially, once you get outside the areas that the national security state directly manages.

Does Pakistan actually have a common system that ties the whole thing together that keeps things working even when the state doesn't function? Actually yes. Its called patronage, and its not just top down, but bottom up, a regular circulatory system of cash and favours. My previous two posts were about how that is the most important glue that keeps all the different bits of Pakistan actually tied together. As you said any message needs to be predictive, and that means to a certain level taking account of realities.

But as for ethnic subnationalism in Pakistan, I think its as easy to overestimate both the strength of sentiment and its chances of fruition as anywhere else in the Subcontinent - 1971 was the only time in the Subcontinent's post-colonial history that a separatist insurgency succeeded anywhere, and I'm including Sri Lanka's own troubles here. Even Bangladesh, which had an exceptionally well organised and united nationalist movement could not have succeeded without direct Indian intervention. In the nuclear era, direct intervention is not something most governments don't really think about very seriously.

What's been left of Sindh that isn't being gobbled up by Karachi is very much Bhutto loyalist territory. In the Pashtun areas its the PTI and TTP that are dominant ideological forces - and the P in their names doesn't stand for Pashtunistan. Both of them would love to be sitting in Islamabad, not retreating and seceding.

The real fight is no longer who gets to secede from Pakistan as a separate nation. The fight is (1) who gets to define what being Pakistani means (inclusive vs. exclusive along a bunch of different axes). Again I think that's part of a larger regional and trend. (2) for positions of power in the patronage machine.

Especially when it comes to the first thing there's plenty of incoherence and conflict, but its really centered around the totally different ideas over what or who makes a *good* Pakistani and a *good* Muslim.

Shiv, you've brought up human development up - In the HDI rankings Pakistan is currently ranked even with Bangladesh. Kenya's just ahead of it, and Myanmar just behind. Nepal is 11 ranks behind, and Afghanistan is way behind. In total there's another 40 countries behind it, mostly African. While that's embarrassing (again mostly for racist reasons), Pakistan is not actually horrifically behind for the region, nor is it dropping like a stone. Pakistan is combination of nukes and extremism is a terrorism is very frightening...but in development terms its hard to see it as a special basket case, especially in regional terms. The point about Karachi is not to romanticise it - its a place of terrifying violence and inequality, but its also not that different from Joburg or Caracas in that sense. The point is that is that Pakistan's 'total' economy is not this stagnant thing that will just fall over, or is in the process of dying.

Just my thoughts.

[member_22733]

Johann,

You assume that the future Bakistan is going to have stable dynamics as far as population goes. Going by the TFR (around 3) this is not the case and I bet the population would hit a billion much before the turn of the century (the exponential curve is an unforgiving mathematical reality).

I would bet that the secessionist voices would increase the moment the population increase causes a sectarian crisis, which may be triggered because of a resource crisis (as you slightly hinted in one of your previous posts). Until then, yes TTP, Sindhis, Pakjabis and everyone would like to define themselves as Bakistanis and the rest as a Murtad who need to be made into a bull-cutlet.

It may look like something that has a semblance of stability at the moment, but its a ticking timebomb covered with human scum waiting to explode. Like I said before, 100 feet titanium walls with automatic killer drones. Thats the way to go.

[Peregrine]

Pakistan's long awaited 3G, 4G auction draws disappointing bids

ISLAMABAD : A dismal response in this week’s auction for next-generation cellphone spectrum licences means cash-strapped Pakistan will struggle to fund its budget this year, finance and IT ministry officials and telecom industry executives told Reuters.

officials say there has been scant interest in Monday’s bidding process and estimate Pakistan will raise no more than $850 million.

“The finance minister (Ishaq Dar) is very angry, so much so that he wants to call off the auction if we are so embarrassingly off target,”

Cheers

[member_22733]

There is no entity that can help India. No Pakistani entity can make peace. No Pakistan entity can export anything worthwhile. No Pakistan entity can negotiate anything. No Pakistani entity han endorse and hold up an agreement. What the fuk were people like Manmohan Singh, Sushil Shinde, Mani Shankar Aiyar etc talking about when they said uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialog with "Pakistan"? What or who is Pakistan can give us anything useful?

Why are we not asking our government these questions?

This is my understanding and I may be wrong.

Pakistan was created by certain elites for elites and so was "India". Bharat was what bharatiyas were wanted. But two sides of elites denied them. Some leaders opposed this division but their voice was too weak. British nurtured this elitism for many decades under British Raj. The west kept them under their influence. Eventually those elites split. The Indian side of elites created a kingdom called New Delhi, a realm that will rule bharat for many decades to come. Even after frictions and wars New Delhi elites never really cut off from pakistani elites. They know each other very well and their sympathy for each other always remain. It was the unknown of bharat that paki elites feared of and that unknown was carefully kept away from the New Delhi empire. These elites of New Delhi rule bharat with help from the west, through their elite universities (JNU etc), elite media, through fear and through sticking together, hoping Bharat never wakes up and take over. Only elites fear military takeover and not deep rooted democratic infrastructure. That is the reason why New Delhi is paranoid about Indian Army. Are we bharatiyas paranoid about the Army? Absolutely not! ridiculous to even think of! GoI is New Delhi empire and it is not OUR government. They are our lords and we are their commoners. They will never do what we bharatiyas think that they should do wrt pakistan.....unless somebody from bharat takes over New Delhi. LBS tried and more recently PVNR attempted it. The elites chewed him and threw away. Vajpayee, Advani, sushma, jasvant and the gang was never bharatiyas IMHO. They pledged their alliance with New Delhi. They are one of THEM.

It is this time the New Delhi elite empire is truly being challenged by a truly bharatiya and we are seeing the elite onslaught after onslaught, including their partners from the west. Here we have one bhartiya standing against all odds. Nobody in reality gives any damn about secularism. It is his bharatiya identity that is creating all this kolavari. Lets see what happens. Anyway, defeat of this elite empire is not possible by winning just one battle. There must be relentless march of baratiyas election after election. The day New Delhi's elite empire completely falls we will have our way of dealing with pakistan.

This is an interesting POV, and one that I agree on, with one important difference. The elites of both sides have nothing but contempt for the commoner. However the Baki elite also had contempt for the Indian elite. There was a story posted here, written by a Punjabi journo who was WKK before she went to Bakistan and then realized that the elites there hated Hindus with vigor.

What we are seeing now is two different revolutions in both countries where the elites are getting challenged by the neo-elites. Baki neo-elites are Islamic mullahs coming from the unwashed piss poor sunni side. Their weapons are the community's rabbit like reproduction rate and an army of brainwashed abdul's with capability to inflict horrific 7th century violence with impunity. Underlying this is class, sectarianism and ethnic identity, which is divisive to its core.

Indian neo-elites are rising from the large middleclass that is fed up of its elites. Modi (and to some extent Khujliwaal) of today and the Janata movement of the past are examples of that. Underlying this is class. But the emphasis is not on sectarianism or ethnic identity anymore. This is one of the many reasons why the == is not valid b/w India and bakistan anymore. There are (and always will be) similarities, but they will be always superficial.

[Philip]

US war criminals at it yet again.
http://rt.com/news/pakistan-strikes-us-soldiers-612/
CIA using US air force to carry out drone strikes in Pakistan
Published time: April 15, 2014

US Air Force pilots are carrying out targeted drone strikes in Pakistan at the behest of the CIA, says a new documentary. The revelation has once again brought into question the legality of the largest targeted killing program in history.

A documentary film, entitled “Drone” due for release on Tuesday, takes a critical look at the five-year drone program that has taken the lives of over 2,400 people, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. Through interviews with drone operators, it is revealed that Air Force pilots at Creech air force base, around 75 kilometers from Las Vegas in the Mojave desert, are carrying out drone attacks for the CIA.

“The CIA might be the customer but the air force has always flown it,” Brandon Bryant, one of the pilots who appears in Drone, told British newspaper The Guardian who obtained a clip of the film.

He identified the pilots of the drones as the 17th Reconnaissance Squadron. Another former drone operator from the documentary film said the squadron is “obsessively secretive” and its members are treated like “crown jewels” at the base.

“They don't hang out with anyone else. Once they got into the 17th and got upgraded operationally, they pretty much stopped talking to us. They would only hang out among themselves like a high school clique, a gang or something.”

The squadron itself is believed to have 300 pilots flying 35 Predator drones and is set apart from rest of the base.

"They wouldn't even let us walk by it, they were just so protective of it," said Michael Haas, a former drone operator.

The participation of the military in a targeted killing program raises significant legality issues. Bryant told the documentary’s makers the “CIA label” is merely an excuse “not to have to give up any information.”

"There is a lie hidden within that truth. And the lie is that it's always been the air force that has flown those missions,” he said.

DRONE TRAILER TV-Version from FlimmerFilm on Vimeo.

President Barack Obama’s drone program hit its five-year anniversary this January amid criticism of civilian casualties in Pakistan. Back in October the Bureau of Investigative Journalism published a report claiming that between 416 and 951 civilians have died in the targeted killings so far.

Hina Shamsi, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's National Security Project told The Guardian the CIA should be focusing its resources on analyzing intelligence rather than drone attacks.

"It will come as a surprise to most Americans if the CIA is directing the military to carry out warlike activities. The agency should be collecting and analyzing foreign intelligence, not presiding over a massive killing apparatus,” she said.

Aside from the military’s involvement in the CIA’s drone program, the documentary focuses on the bigger picture and the impact the use of drones has had on modern warfare. The documentary’s director, Tonje Hessen Schei, said that her objective in making the film was to get the public to discuss and analyze the issue.

“The US is setting a very dangerous precedent with their use of drones, and right now Europe is moving forward acquiring armed drones – so we are at an important turning point and I believe it is crucial that we establish strong international rules for the use of drones,” she told Netwars. She also called for a full, independent investigation into civilian deaths in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

The civilian deaths from US drone attacks in Pakistan have become a significant stumbling block in bilateral relations. Pakistan recently asked Washington to limit the amount of drone attacks in Pakistan as the government enters into negotiations with the Pakistani Taliban.

[Prem]

Johann, I would bet that the secessionist voices would increase the moment the population increase causes a sectarian crisis, which may be triggered because of a resource crisis (as you slightly hinted in one of your previous posts). Until then, yes TTP, Sindhis, Pakjabis and everyone would like to define themselves as Bakistanis and the rest as a Murtad who need to be made into a bull-cutlet. It may look like something that has a semblance of stability at the moment, but its a ticking timebomb covered with human scum waiting to explode. Like I said before, 100 feet titanium walls with automatic killer drones. Thats the way to go.

Not Drones but MMGs and Shilkas in straight mode every 1000 feet at Attari and Rajasthan border. Poaqrabbits are somewhere between210-240 Mill now and growing 3.4 to 3.7% a year with no sign of slowing down in near future. The trailor will start in 2035 and exciting movie by 2045. 90% of Paki with real skewed sex ratio will be without Food ,Water,Electricity, Education (whats that),information and real deficit in mental and physical capacity at large. Paki islamic society is murderously unique.They dont live for their children but spend their life concentrating on finding ways to kill other people's children,especially of Kaffirs.

[SSridhar]

. . .There was a story posted here, written by a Punjabi journo who was WKK before she went to Bakistan and then realized that the elites there hated Hindus with vigor.

I don't know who it was. But we know of Qurratulain Hyder, one of the greatest Urdu writers of the 20th century. She migrated to Pakistan, felt suffocated and re-migrated to India. She had this to say: “Islam! Islam has had a rough ride here. If the Pakistani team begins to lose at cricket, Islam falls into danger. Every problem in the world is ultimately reduced to this word Islam. Other Muslim countries resent the fact that the sole contractors of Islam are these people from Pakistan. Everything is being upholstered with narrow-mindedness. Music, art, civilisation, learning and literature, they are all being viewed from the perspective of the Mullah . Islam, which was like a rising river whose majestic flow had been augmented by so many tributaries to turn it into a cascading force, has been reduced to a muddy stream which is being enclosed from all four sides with high walls.”

Then there was Josh Malihabadi, another great Urdu litterateur of the 20th century and who had won the Padma Bhushan in c. 1954 from the Indian Government, was lured by President Iskander Mirza of Pakistan, but had to come back to India dejected after Ayub Khan deposed Iskander Mirza and Malihabadi was branded as an Indian agent.

[Agnimitra]

abhijitm, LokeshC, Johann & shiv ji,

Teddy Roosevelt uvacha, "The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the state because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."

Bakistanis of great wealth also have an extra-peculiar obligation to their quasi-state, because the Bakistani quasi-state is a peculiar kind of state. It is first and last a foil state, created by certain Islamist and Anglo-Saxon interests. Its raisin dieter is to act as a pivot for trans-national levers to work against Eurasian players like India, Russia, Iran, China - AND to shift the center of gravity of the Ummah's political power out of the Middle Eastern Master Races Urheimat. Such a foil state must always preserve a certain liminal position w.r.t. statehood in order to have plausible deniability. It must entertain a certain amount of internal chaos in order to fulfill its raisin dieter - which is to host agents of external chaos.

The Bakistani elites only need to ensure that this internal chaos remains between certain threshold limits - neither too much nor too little. At this point of time, Bakistan wants to expand its domain to include Afghanistan, which means it must take over and inject Afghanistan with its special mix of new order and further chaos (continuous jihadi inquilab). Therefore, in anticipation of this, the levels of chaos within Bakistan have gone up. IF this generated chaos does not find its intended outlet to overwhelm Afghanistan, then it would burst the upper threshold within Bakistan's current domain, and would lead to a dwindling spiral. But if it can find an outlet in post-2014 Afghanistan and also Kashmir, Syria and elsewhere, then it is not a problem. The Bakistani liminal quasi-statehood will endure and its men of great wealth will be doing a good job of fulfilling their special obligations to it, under Saudi and Anglo-Saxon auspices.

In the meantime, both, the Saudis and Anglos are at special pains to explain to others, especially Indians, that this quasi-state cannot and must not be subjected to external pressures of shastra, shaastra and shuddhi (i.e., if they go counter to its raisin dieter), because it now has nukes, and we are in a brave new era.

[Agnimitra]

Added to above post: "...to shift the center of gravity of the Ummah's political power out of the Middle Eastern Master Races Urheimat."

The way Islamist Bakis see their area's current situation is through the eyes of Islam's history - They see Bakistan as a latter-day shadow of Jahiliyyah Arabia at the time of the Prophet's advent. There, the two martial sets of tribes on Arabia's shoulders were also at war with one another, just like the Pakjabis and Pashtuns are today. Etc. Advent of the Mahdi must be round the corner. Mind you, even Baluchistan has been under a Mahdavi spell. So while Bakistan's disparate and warring tribes may not be really reverent towards a state machinery per se, they see themselves through a certain lens, and so their expectant cohesion amid centrifugal chaos must be appreciated from that psychological angle.

[ramana]

Agnimitra,
Refer to Wilfrid Scawen Blunt" Future of Islam".

[jash_p]

Pakistan's long awaited 3G, 4G auction draws disappointing bids

Quote:

ISLAMABAD : A dismal response in this week’s auction for next-generation cellphone spectrum licences means cash-strapped Pakistan will struggle to fund its budget this year, finance and IT ministry officials and telecom industry executives told Reuters.


Quote:

officials say there has been scant interest in Monday’s bidding process and estimate Pakistan will raise no more than $850 million.


Quote:

“The finance minister (Ishaq Dar) is very angry, so much so that he wants to call off the auction if we are so embarrassingly off target,”

Cheers Image

Why do Pakis need kuffar things like 3G-4G technology ? they have kuran and Islam which gives every thing even more than 10000000000000000000000------------------------------Gs. !!!!!!!!!!!!

[member_22733]

. . .There was a story posted here, written by a Punjabi journo who was WKK before she went to Bakistan and then realized that the elites there hated Hindus with vigor.

I don't know who it was. But we know of Qurratulain Hyder, one of the greatest Urdu writers of the 20th century. She migrated to Pakistan, felt suffocated and re-migrated to India. She had this to say: “Islam! Islam has had a rough ride here. If the Pakistani team begins to lose at cricket, Islam falls into danger. Every problem in the world is ultimately reduced to this word Islam. Other Muslim countries resent the fact that the sole contractors of Islam are these people from Pakistan. Everything is being upholstered with narrow-mindedness. Music, art, civilisation, learning and literature, they are all being viewed from the perspective of the Mullah . Islam, which was like a rising river whose majestic flow had been augmented by so many tributaries to turn it into a cascading force, has been reduced to a muddy stream which is being enclosed from all four sides with high walls.”

Then there was Josh Malihabadi, another great Urdu litterateur of the 20th century and who had won the Padma Bhushan in c. 1954 from the Indian Government, was lured by President Iskander Mirza of Pakistan, but had to come back to India dejected after Ayub Khan deposed Iskander Mirza and Malihabadi was branded as an Indian agent.

Wow, you truly are an encyclopedia

I was talking about Seema Goswami (could not remember her name at the time I wrote that post) and here is the article outlining her experience:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news-feed ... 83154.aspx

[Anujan]

Railway minister trying to cover his mush from the TFTAs

Given Gen. RAWheel's recent statement of "Protecting the army's Echandee at all costs", I am guessing the khakis are preparing to make a "statement" to the civvies... the poor railway minister is just asking for it.. For his sake, I hope he downhill skied in private atleast..

Look at the comments to the article: Mush is such a patriot!! He has fought so many wars!! etc etc.

Pakistan Army, Mush and I have won the same number of wars. Just like how I and Lenardo di caprio have same number of Oscars.

[ramana]

LokeshC, Read Q Hyder's book "Aag ka Dariya". She used to have column in Deccan Chronicle before it was bought by Congress supporters.

[shiv]

I will take up three points that Johann made that are typical of the "current comfortable" western view of how all is well in Pakistan and no one needs to worry:

1. That Pakistan's human development index is the same as that of Bangladesh.

• If you dig deeper into how statistics are collected in Pakistan, you find that no full census has been conducted since the late 1990s and even today no go areas like parts of Baluchistan and FATA are simply not included in human development statistics When you cant get accurate population statistics you cannot get accurate human development statistics, You can only predict that if population increases faster than economic growth and if there is great income disparity HDI will get worse, That is what I said. Pakistan statistics are limited to what people can get out of Punjab and Sindh. Furthermore HDI is not a one time photograph. It is a moving picture. Bangladesh was worse than Pakistan. It is equal now. That says that Pakistan has deteriorated or failed to improve as even Bangladesh has done

2. Pakistan works on a system of"patronage".

• Actually patronage exists all over. Patronage per se does not mean things are good - it means things are bad. I once got a paper published in a so called 'Top" journal from the UK simply because of patronage (received by a Brit co author who then got his name first pn the paper). The AAP in India and Janaagraha are both reactions to the feudal patronage system that allows family dynasties to rule. Patronage bypasses democratic systems, In fact Pakistan is loved by the US and the west simply because patronage and paying off a general or chief of staff and his family allows them to get things done.

3. the sub nationalities of Pakistan are not an issue.

• If you exclude sub nationalities from the reckoning and speak only of Punjab and Sindh then sub nationalities are not an issue. if you exclude Baluchistan, huge parts of NWFP then oh yes Pakistan is fine. A bit of terrorism, a bit of patronage, a bit of ethnic cleansing, a bit of illiteracy, a little bit of polio, a bit of sharia, some terrorist training camps, a bit of borrowing, a bit of begging, a bit of lying and obfuscation and hey yes you have a functioning nation state called Pakistan.
  
  I have been warning people on BRF precisely to recognise how a series of little bluffs from Pakistan, supported by western media lead to the impression that almost all is well exactly as Johann is at pains to point out

[shiv]

Bakistanis of great wealth also have an extra-peculiar obligation to their quasi-state, because the Bakistani quasi-state is a peculiar kind of state. It is first and last a foil state, created by certain Islamist and Anglo-Saxon interests. Its raisin dieter is to act as a pivot for trans-national levers to work against Eurasian players like India, Russia, Iran, China - AND to shift the center of gravity of the Ummah's political power out of the Middle Eastern Master Races Urheimat. Such a foil state must always preserve a certain liminal position w.r.t. statehood in order to have plausible deniability. It must entertain a certain amount of internal chaos in order to fulfill its raisin dieter - which is to host agents of external chaos.

The Bakistani elites only need to ensure that this internal chaos remains between certain threshold limits - neither too much nor too little.

Yes it is a quasi state created clearly as a foil state.

But let me point out some facts that have come to light over the past 6 plus decades.

Neither India nor Pakistan had (before or after 1947) the characteristics that were thought to be necessary for the formation of a successful nation-state.

From Google we have this definition of nation state:

a sovereign state of which most of the citizens or subjects are united also by factors which define a nation, such as language or common descent.

This is why Churchill described India as being as much of a nation as the equator, a statement picked up enthusiastically by Bakis. On the Other hand Pakistan itself was though to be a great example of a nation sate because of the unifying features of Islam, a bluff that the west believed.

From Wiki:

Pakistan, even being an ethnically diverse country and officially a federation, is regarded as a nation state[32] due to its ideological basis on which it was given independence from British India as a separate nation rather than as part of a unified India. Different ethnic groups in Pakistan are strongly bonded by their common Muslim identity, common cultural and social values, common historical heritage, a national Lingua franca (Urdu) and joint political, strategic and economic interests

The elephant in the room, or perhaps I should say the Ganesha in the room is Hinduism. India's glue is, whether anyone accepts it or not, Hinduism. Without the unifying all accepting all excusing features of Hindu culture - you have multiple ethincities and linguistic groups in India with no common cause. India stayed together because Hindus agreed to stay together despite their not necessarily loving each other. They agreed not to rip each other apart and agreed to let others survive. Pakistan separated from India and then divided even further because Muslims of different ethnicities did not agree to stay together. .

So in Pakistan you have a conglomeration of states or nation states (based on the definition that nation state is a common ethnicity and language) and no glue because Islam has not worked as glue.

So going by the original (quoted by Churchill) definition of nation state - a single ethinicity and language defines a nation state.

Pakistan consists of four nation states - Punjab, Sindh, Pasthunistan (Pakhtunkhwa) and Baluchistan

Baluchis want out - they were absorbed into Pakistan later.

Pashtuns feel their nation is bigger and extends across the Durand line. The do not accept majority Punjabi hegemony

Sindh and Punjab are more stable and more nited - in very large part because only Sindh and Punjab share borders with the hated kafir India and that border is well defined. A well defined border is a requirement for a nation state.

Pakistan is four nation states. i would like to see a title for this thread that reflects this reality

[Prem]

China seeks guarantees for 21,690MW projects
| First meeting of Pak-China Economic Corridor Working Group held
Taller Hai Tuu, Deeper hai Tuu: Har Paki Ki Maa Ka Laala Hai Tuu

ISLAMABAD - Chinese National Energy Administration (NEA) has asked the government of Pakistan to give guarantees for 21,690MW power projects under China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.
Zhang Yuqing, vice-administer NEA, asked for guarantees on Tuesday during the first meeting of Energy Planning Working Group of China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) held at a local hotel( Brothel).
Yuqing during his presentation raised six points, including joint planning, planning working group, time schedule for the projects, planning guarantee mechanism in accordance with policy regularity law and mechanism, and intergovernmental agreement to guarantee execution of the projects.
The working group was co-chaired by Federal Minister for Water and Power Khawaja Muhammad Asif and Minister for Planning and Development Ahsan Iqbal along with Zhang Yuqing.
The secretary ministry for water and power during his presentation said that the energy plan with China was divided into three parts. In the first part, the projects of coal, wind, solar and hydel for generating about 7000MW energy will be initiated in September this year, which will be completed in the next three years. In the second part, the projects will be completed in five years while in the third phase the projects will be completed in seven years.Both parties discussed the organisational framework, basic concepts, main items, work programme and enabling mechanism for energy planning of CPEC. The ministry of water and power and China’s National Energy Administration agreed for fast-track implementation of the 21,690 MW power and related infrastructure projects under the CPEC.
During the discussion, it was agreed that both sides would jointly establish China-Pakistan Economic Corridor Energy Information Platform and provide timely, precise and complete data and information about the platform, and will also establish Energy Planning Expert Group.China would provide $6 million for operation of information platform. The ministry of water and power will ensure that data sharing should continue throughout the planning period from May 2014 to December 2014. It was agreed that 16 power projects including construction of transmission lines would be completed by 2017.It was also agreed that both sides would focus the study on power source and grid distribution, tariff mechanism, coal development and transportation, push forward the corridors energy infrastructure and interconnection and inter-working of power grids and establishment of major cooperation projects.The groundbreaking ceremony may be performed during the visit of the Chinese prime minister. He said that out of 25 projects, 16 were early harvest projects of 21690MW.

[svenkat]

Johanns posts make a lot of sense.Pakjab is stable.They have rivers,plains,canal systems,dams,food surplus,sunni faith,stable social system inherited from Hindu past.They have colonies as well-sindh,baltistan,balochisthan where pakjabi soldiers can exercise their blood lust.

They have support from the Anglo-Saxon christian racists who carved out pakistan in the first place and the support of Hans too.Remember pakistan is stable from a western view.The Westerners have an exactly similar view for the planet as well.They have their allies,lackeys,coolies,stooges,enemies,demons and prickly nationalists-those darn hindoos.

Nationalism/human rights is for the beautiful blonde people.Why should Pakjab be judged by those standards.The TFTA people in pakistan are doing well.

Let us not deny the lure of settled civilisation to the sarkari pakhtuns and hindko people in ancient Gandhara(peshawar) and Swat.The pakjabis are anyway rendering frontier justice(with aid of CIA) to the savages in the badlands.

Right now,theres no problem.

[Prem]

Ice may melt as Nawaz accepts army’s invite to attend parade

Rona, Ganja Nahi Rona, Chahe Rawheel Samjhe Tumko Khilona

ISLAMABAD: The ongoing rift between the civilian government and military command may ease in the coming days following Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s reported plan to attend a cadets’ passing-out ceremony scheduled in the garrison city of Abbottabad, coming Saturday.
Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif is said to have formally requested Prime Minister Nawaz to chair the 128th Long Course passing-out ceremony at the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) on April 19. The request was sent in the form of an invitation card from the General Headquarters (GHQ) to the PM Secretariat sometime early last month. Sources in the PM Secretariat said the Secretariat had confirmed the premier’s participation in the event over a month ago. “The event was planned well in time. As per standard protocol, the armed forces, on behalf of their respective chiefs, invite the head of state or government, president or PM, to grace their respective important ceremonies. . Other related arrangements also require sufficient time, not less than a few weeks,” he said in an apparent attempt to downplay the event’s significance in the backdrop of ongoing turn of events. Reports are rife about unease within the rank and file of the security establishment regarding the way the government is handling Pervez Musharraf’s treason trial.
Following strong statements from two federal ministers, Khawaja Asif and Khawaja Saad Rafiq, in this context, some pro-establishment circles have recently demanded Asif’s resignation as defence minister. No official word from the PM Secretariat has come on this count amid assumptions that all was not well between the elected political leadership and the army command. According to a media report a meeting between Prime Minister Nawaz and Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif is expected to take place soon. The meeting will discuss the statements issued by the federal ministers, which has been creating tension between the government and the army, the channel quoted sources as saying. Sources further said that General Raheel Sharif will inform the premier about the growing concern and anxiety in military ranks due to the statements. It was further reported that the disputed statements were also discussed in the meeting of the corps commanders.

[Prem]

http://tribune.com.pk/story/695963/rest ... y-balance/

Restoring the civil-military balance

The Kargil episode and the Memogate affair are some of the classic examples that caused national embarrassment. Moreover, our foreign, defence and security policies continue to suffer as a consequence of this imbalance. Recently, a war of words between the civil and military leadership has rung alarm bells as friction between institutions could undermine our capacity in dealing with the TTP, or for that matter, with any militant organisation, whether based in Punjab, Sindh or Balochistan. Radical groups are known to cleverly exploit differences among institutions to their advantage.
Foreign powers, too, become sceptical when they see the gulf between the civil and military. India, Afghanistan and the US were never sure whether the army was supportive of the policies that the government professed.There are several other serious ongoing irritants. The saga of missing persons goes on while the prime minister is supposedly engaged in a reconciliation process with the Baloch nationalists. It is rumoured that TTP prisoners were released without taking the military into confidence. This may well not be true, but the apologetic and fraternal overtures extended to the TTP by the interior minister did deeply hurt the feelings of the rank and file of army, reflecting the disconnect. In Punjab, well-known radicals like Maulana Ludhyanvi, Hafiz Saeed and Maulana Azhar becoming a part of mainstream politics and their increasing influence are a source of concern. The level of government tolerance has reached a stage where individuals and groups that were blatantly involved in acts of terrorism and sectarian killings are being given respectability. Is there a realisation in the ruling elite how much the policy of appeasement affects national power and lowers prestige in the eyes of its own people and abroad? The question is whether this is happening with the concurrence of the civil and military leadership or that these policies have no ownership. Once the state surrenders the monopoly of violence and allows it to be outsourced, it loses its ability to protect its citizens. It is ironic that a state that has been using asymmetric forces to multiply its power is now facing a situation where the same forces are diminishing it. More importantly, how will the central policy of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to maintain good relations with our neighbours harmonise with its current approach of appeasement with most of these militant groups? Has the civil and military leadership seriously deliberated over these issues and will the new national policy on internal security be implemented to confront and combat these forces?The fissures in institutional relationships have compromised our ability to deal with neighbouring countries effectively. While dealing with India, granting it the Most-Favoured Nation status has been an on and off affair, giving the impression as if the army brass is not fully supportive of the peace process. Afghan President Hamid Karzai has also been blaming our army and intelligence services for being involved in destabilising his country. Surely, the Pakistani state is not interested in destabilising Afghanistan as it directly hurts its own interest, yet the perception is different.