IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Apr 2016 22:23

Austin wrote:He also keeps saying we will complete the negotiation soon. LoL

Even if the negotiations were going nowhere, he'd still probably have to say that. The MoD would much prefer the French to walk away on their own, rather than be sent home by the MoD (given that the contract originated in the PMO). Simplest way to do that is to keep the deal in limbo.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 10 Apr 2016 22:25

But if people want to get high on the obvious, pvt sector will do this, public will do that, we will send it as kits for 3 years, after which .......................... fine. Up to you. Like someone said "Very original". May be he should have asked, who is going to cut the ribbon? Complete the picture.

Point being, here is what seems to be a informational moment for India (IMVVHO) and all we can post is from yester years. I do not know about others, but this - even if it does not come through - is a major deviation from MOD thinking.

Didn't Philip sir face protest from a few members on saying the same thing, albeit in another way?

Actually, not about yesteryers, there are some very successful programs going on in production. Here is one from another thread:
viewtopic.php?p=2001547#p2001547
The 'informal moment' could be therefore, what good is industrial revolution if the country can't produce home grown weapons. The Chinese do it, the Pakis even get entire F-16s and 'transfer' of 1000 Hellfire missiles! Much can be learnt well from our own experience, and produce as many as needed for strategic goals as we can.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Apr 2016 22:27

brar_w wrote:Well if they were still around they could have always been sent an invitation to join the Lockheed-Boeing-MOD open house

Yeah and then LM, Boeing and Dassault could all 'jointly' meet the 'top defence ministry officials'. More the merrier.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Apr 2016 22:34

“I don’t fix timelines but I am definitely interested in finishing it (Rafale fighter deal) as early as possible,” Manohar Parrikar

India wants to close the multi-billion dollar deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation as early as possible, defence minister Manohar Parrikar told DefenceAviationPost.com.

“I don’t fix timelines but I am definitely interested in finishing it as early as possible,” Parrikar said on crucial deal that will significantly improve the operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force.

Parrikar, however, said that price was an important issue. “Price is equally important. While I want the aircraft I will definitely be interested in the right price,” he said. The minister said the law ministry’s objections were being “attended to”.

The deal, sources said, is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore. India and France had signed a Memorandum of Understanding over the purchase of 36 Rafale jets during the visit of French President Francois Hollande to India in January this year. The deliveries of the nuclear-capable multi-role Rafale jets are likely to begin in 2019. “The discussions are in the final phase of price negotiations,” said an official.

The defence ministry under Parrikar has proved to be a tough negotiator bringing the cost by a significant margin.

Parrikar had earlier said he was a “tough negotiator” and wanted the “best price” for Rafale fighter jets from France. “I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation,” Parrikar had been quoted as saying.

At least 15 per cent of the total payment will have to be made immediately, if and when the deal is signed.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Apr 2016 22:44

Viv S wrote:
brar_w wrote:Well if they were still around they could have always been sent an invitation to join the Lockheed-Boeing-MOD open house
Yeah and then LM, Boeing and Dassault could all 'jointly' meet the 'top defence ministry officials'. More the merrier.

Babu's seem to have their hands full

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO5ANTqVZ7c

ldev wrote:Well, Carter has arrived in Goa.

Pictures

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Apr 2016 23:06

visited Mangueshi Temple

Oh, then done deal.

Our HQ.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2016 23:54

I spotted an interesting titbit in the last F mag issue. Sing Air Show news.The Chinese have been forced to pay IPR moolah to the Russians for a long list of mil eqpt including naval Flankers,missiles,naval MBU rocket launchers,etc.No export of these items too.That may be why the SU-35 has been allowed for export.Therefore Pak will not be able to get cutting edge Ru eqpt from China without Ru consent.Thus the JF-17 will be the PAF's "roti" for quite some time.Explains why F-16 acquisitions are so vital.An Indian govt. would be asinine to reward the Yanquis with a massive order of aircraft to the nation that supports Pak's terror against India and provides it with aircraft to attack us with!

John Kerry pleaded with the Taliban (ISI proxies) while in Kabul to cooperate with an Afghan national govt.Their answerMissiles fired into Kabul.Are the Yanquis brainless?The problem is Pakistan.Take out Pakistan,dismember it and half the global problems will be solved.Instead they are nourishing the" eviltude".Praise be to Dubya for coining that word!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 01:46

Philip wrote:I spotted an interesting titbit in the last F mag issue. Sing Air Show news.The Chinese have been forced to pay IPR moolah to the Russians for a long list of mil eqpt including naval Flankers,missiles,naval MBU rocket launchers,etc.No export of these items too. That may be why the SU-35 has been allowed for export.Therefore Pak will not be able to get cutting edge Ru eqpt from China without Ru consent.

-1 for logic. Big difference between China conceding to pay royalties on Russian-origin equipment and accepting a Russian veto on its arms exports.

Not that the Russians would have any objections to Chinese exports in the first place, unless it impinges upon their own sales.

Case in point:

Russia-Pakistan Deal May Lead to More Sales

ISLAMABAD — A deal for Pakistan to directly import Russian engines for the JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter will improve the program and may lead to more Russian-made parts for the aircraft, analysts say.

News broke over the weekend that Pakistan would directly import the Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia rather than via China, which reportedly also supports the deal.

Kaiser Tufail, an analyst and former air commodore, said he believes the deal is significant on cost and political grounds.

"I think a direct deal with Russia for supply of the engines basically removes the Chinese middleman, resulting in cheaper procurement cost. It is also reflective of a thaw in what has been a frosty relationship with Russia over the past several decades," he said.

Considering the JF-17 is a Sino-Pakistani project, Tufail said: "China's approval of direct procurement from Russia is also significant, and can be seen as trilateral cooperation between the three countries, in which Pakistan enjoys a pivotal position."

Pakistan to stick with RD-93 engine for JF-17, say PAF officials

PAC representatives added that the next step is to establish a full-scale servicing and overhaul facility for the RD-93 at their plant in Kamra.

"What does this tell you?" asked one programme officer rhetorically. "If the situation was as it has been portrayed at times - that we are just utilising the RD-93 as a temporary solution until the Chinese can 'save' us with their own new engine - then we would not be expending the resources to set up this overhaul base. For us, changing to another engine would not make any sense and would be disruptive and cause a huge expense for the JF-17 programme.".

And just FYI, deliveries of the RD-93 began in 2002, long before we started buying from the US.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 11 Apr 2016 07:38

nirav wrote:What exactly qualifies as offsets ?

If the French figure of 8 Billion USD is accepted, they are obligated to plough back 4 Billion USD back in desh.
30% on Income by desi companies would be taxed.

Net effect @ 50 % offset is 4 Billion USD less Tax income from offset amount being ploughed back ..
Net effect wise per unit comes out to ~ 100 - 110 Million for the jet in flyaway condition + associated weaponry

With the russian deals, we dont have 50% offsets ..

No only the import or forex outgo component qualifies for offsets

Say for eg
If 2 billion out of 8 billion goes into facilities being setup at air base and the materials eg cement bricks etc are all sourced locally then
The amount on which offsets are calculated is 8-2 = 6 billion

Then if many parts are sourced locally over the life cycle say about 1 billion then the offsets base amount comes down by 1 billion to 5 billion

So actual offsets value will be 2.5 billion

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 11 Apr 2016 07:59

vishvak wrote:
Gyan wrote:IAF has presented our RM with two super costly choice of Rafale And T-50. I say, kill both, go for LCA and Su-30MKI while developing UCAV and AMCA for stealth role.
What is it that Rafale or F/A-18 do have each and PAK-FA/FGFA does not have?

They are flying and ready for induction

Pakfa is atleast 5 years away from serial production

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 11 Apr 2016 10:21

While Rafale is out of our budget, (or Eurofighter) for that matter, love for F-16 or F-18 is understood. What happens to lower marks given to F-16 or F-18 during MMRCA trials? What has changed in last 5-7 years which makes these two qualify on 700+ parameters? It is interesting to see that MII for F-16/F-18 is so important that we would not want latest bit more expensive F-35? To me, F-16 seems bit out of picture since IAF wouldn't want a plane which your adversary has with lots of better understanding. Plus F-16 is single engined and no commonality exists with other program/strategy such as F-18 has with LCA (F414 engine) or possible Naval acquisition. Last but not least, India has clearly set its eyes on Su30 MKI as air superiority fighter in past plus PAKFA/FGFA to come in future (not to forget AMCA).

So, ideally F-16 should be out of the race for our MMRCA thing and should only be used to lower the Boeing F-18 price. And since our MMRCA needs still hold, F-18 with affordable budget + MII makes sense.

Now, what technology transfer are we looking at from F-18 MII? Is it jig/rig, precise machine tooling/production engineering/metallurgies involved OR engine (the F414 ordered for LCA are already under MII?), radar or any weapons TOT we are actually looking for? I recall those days when we used to specifically mention what TOT we are talking about when MMRCA bids were being submitted and cautioning each other not to fall for vague terms as TOT.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Apr 2016 12:29

+$ for logic.Russia has plugged the loopholes that allowed China toreverse engineer and export without permission.Now even China will have to pay royalty or other compensation for their own needs.Engines for Pak's fighters are a response to our buying billions of US eqpt.But the fighter is modest in the extreme not a Flankrr clone.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Apr 2016 13:51

While Rafale is out of our budget, (or Eurofighter) for that matter, love for F-16 or F-18 is understood. What happens to lower marks given to F-16 or F-18 during MMRCA trials? What has changed in last 5-7 years which makes these two qualify on 700+ parameters?

The capability demanded under the MMRCA was clearly deemed unaffordable, or simply non-negotiatlbe given that it no longer exists as a preferred means to move ahead, the MOD and Dassault having moved to a much smaller, simpler yet quite expensive Government to Government Deal. As I had mentioned, there were multiple components, capability, cost, transfer of technology and licensed production and if these carry over you will need to look at them in totality to deem affordability. As far as technical capabilities, the OEM's have had time to refine their submissions. As mentioned, the F-18E/F can come with a higher thrust engine that can take care of a lot of performance. It was available back then but not evaluated, perhaps Boeing and GE can share more data and perhaps a lower-risk option can be shared given that the DTTI now provides a framework for co-development. Who knows. However do note that acquisition is about cost v capability trades. If you are getting 90% of the capability at 70% of the price, you are in a good place. Most acquisition programs around the world would love to play in that trade space.

It is interesting to see that MII for F-16/F-18 is so important that we would not want latest bit more expensive F-35?

Again, the MMRCA and this new deal appear to be about - Capability, - TOT, - Make In India. While the F-35 is clearly ahead of the teens in capability, the other 2 likely components of a potential MII deal may favor the other two.

Now, what technology transfer are we looking at from F-18 MII? Is it jig/rig, precise machine tooling/production engineering/metallurgies involved OR engine (the F414 ordered for LCA are already under MII?), radar or any weapons TOT we are actually looking for? I recall those days when we used to specifically mention what TOT we are talking about when MMRCA bids were being submitted and cautioning each other not to fall for vague terms as TOT.

No official solicitation has been sent to the open market to seek proposals. Therefore, it is too early to speculate what the MOD wants in terms of MII. However, given the earlier position some form of key TOT an of course maximum production in India would/should be high on the list.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 11 Apr 2016 15:47

Viv S wrote:The French negotiating team arrived in New Delhi on March 29.

Anyone know if they're still around, watching Parrikar & Carter on TV discussing F-16s & SHs, from their hotel rooms? Or have they already left for home without finalizing an agreement?

The latter us more likely

Otherwise rafale lobby would have been ehurbant right now

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Apr 2016 15:55

One lesson that should be learnt from this MMRCA fiasco is that when selecting a new foreign type India should allow future aircraft (i.e. aircraft still in R&D phase) to be included in the competition. That is by the time India gets around to finally signing for one 20 years would have gone by and what was in R&D at the start would have been FOC by the end of it. No point letting legacy aircraft in the mix at the start because by two-decades later they would be old tech.

It takes as long to design and build your own aircraft as it does to sign for an imported one! Let the lesson be learnt

Why not put good scientists, engineers and SMEs to work over those years than an army of bureaucrats?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 11 Apr 2016 16:30

Can someone educate me on why anyone would set up a new assembly line for 16 and 18 in India? It's not that they have an overfull order book for next 2 decades which they can't deliver from their existing facility. Unless it's about F35 production line, it makes no sense for them. But every report talks about the 16 and 18. So what's the deal?

If we think from US's perspective, they might be trying to actually sell the teens to us. They might be willing to setup a production line and some ToT ONLY if we buy some considerable amount of either of the two fighters. This offer could be similar to that of Su-30 MKI. Basically they might be looking at covering their opportunity cost that they lost in MMRCA. But apparently, DM has reportedly said that we don't want to buy their fighters. So IMO, this will start and end with chai-biscuit wonly.

OR is this tamasha meant to pressurize Frenches?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Apr 2016 16:54

brar_w wrote:

Pictures

The USS Blue Ridge is the flagship and the first modern C&C ship in the USN. It was launched in 1970!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfvstGuWsAANmo4.jpg

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 18:00

Philip wrote:+$ for logic.Russia has plugged the loopholes that allowed China toreverse engineer and export without permission.Now even China will have to pay royalty or other compensation for their own needs.Engines for Pak's fighters are a response to our buying billions of US eqpt.But the fighter is modest in the extreme not a Flankrr clone.

The deal to power the JF-17 (then FC-1) with the RD-93 was signed in the 90s. What 'billions of US eqpt' were we buying then? It would be more logical to frame our buying 'billions' from the US in response to Russia selling 'billions' to China (for its own use and for re-export).

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 11 Apr 2016 18:30

It makes perfect sense to sell less modern (although good enough) F16/F18 to India from US perspective.
1. Both the F-16/F-18 lines will be shutdown in near future since new F-35 has arrived for USA and its allies. Hence, evil Indians looking for MMRCA type ASQR fit the bill.
2. Boeing gets order if F-18 is chosen, hence for many years for ~ 100+ aircrafts, components, weapons will be ordered by India keeping jobs alive in US. (LM is busy churning out F-35).
3. Why should India get stealthier modern F-35 when Indians are at the most looking for a Mirage replacement, F-16/F-18 are good enough. Heck, Indians even won't be ready to sign 10 quintal CISMOA etc. papers. What is the need of Russkies 'Have-A-Dekko' at F-35?
4. With F-16 MII, its makes perfect sense for India and Pakistan to do Tu-Tu-Main-Main with similar aircraft's across the border.

Regarding, second question that is this Tamasha to pressurize French's. IMO, answer is NO, since India is sweating to part with hard earned cash for mere 36 Rafales. Hence, balance 90 (126-36) aircrafts have to be procured (Mk1A/Mk2/AMCA are far away) in a cheaper fashion. India is not looking for a Rafale production line anymore.

With lesser dependency on Russians (not wanting to dish our kidney while asking for spare parts), wanting improved availability of aircrafts (read Western) and establishing an environment of military aviation manufacturing, a production line setup for a relatively cheaper fully developed fighter, associated with cheaper weapon package from Khan Amreeka cannot hurt (I hope in wartime, Washington doesn't remotely switches off engines of our aircraft). Until few more squadrons of Su30MKI/Mig-29/LCA are ordered, this thing looks real to me.

kapilrdave wrote:Can someone educate me on why anyone would set up a new assembly line for 16 and 18 in India? It's not that they have an overfull order book for next 2 decades which they can't deliver from their existing facility. Unless it's about F35 production line, it makes no sense for them. But every report talks about the 16 and 18. So what's the deal?

If we think from US's perspective, they might be trying to actually sell the teens to us. They might be willing to setup a production line and some ToT ONLY if we buy some considerable amount of either of the two fighters. This offer could be similar to that of Su-30 MKI. Basically they might be looking at covering their opportunity cost that they lost in MMRCA. But apparently, DM has reportedly said that we don't want to buy their fighters. So IMO, this will start and end with chai-biscuit wonly.

OR is this tamasha meant to pressurize Frenches?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 18:59

kapilrdave wrote:Can someone educate me on why anyone would set up a new assembly line for 16 and 18 in India? It's not that they have an overfull order book for next 2 decades which they can't deliver from their existing facility. Unless it's about F35 production line, it makes no sense for them. But every report talks about the 16 and 18. So what's the deal?

As Bhaskar said, the LM & Boeing production lines are closing down. The facilities will be shuttered, the workforce laid off and the tooling scrapped. If they transfer all that to India, even at a nominal price, it'll still be a profitable venture for the OEM.

The line would remain in business for a little longer, building kits for assembly while the Indian workforce is in training. Their supplier network will continue to receive orders even after the production line has shifted to India. The company would continue to receive its cut of the profits from Indian sales and possibly win contract for future upgrades.

For illustration, take a look at the BAE M777 deal. The Raksha Mantri has managed to negotiate a fantastic Make-in-India deal, where partial production and full assembly will take place in India with equipment transferred to Mahindra from the US & UK, and yet 145 guns will cost about a $100 mil less than it would have to purchase off-the-shelf. And with the line based in India, they can continue to place follow-on orders (as well as service exports) without worrying about the status of the production line (read: C-17).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 19:43

brar_w wrote:
It is interesting to see that MII for F-16/F-18 is so important that we would not want latest bit more expensive F-35?
Again, the MMRCA and this new deal appear to be about - Capability, - TOT, - Make In India. While the F-35 is clearly ahead of the teens in capability, the other 2 likely components of a potential MII deal may favor the other two.

Thing is, India could obtain quite a bit of that from an F-35 purchase as well.

1. Capability: The F-35 is head-and-shoulders above the EF & Rafale, to say nothing of the F-16V & SH. And enables better (vs SH) inter-operability with Japan & Singapore.

2. Transfer of Technology: The South Korean requested 30 technologies as part of the offset agreement for the F-35 contract. The US govt cleared the transfer of 26 of them.

3. Make-in-India: The capital costs associated with the F-35 will no doubt be far larger, ~$650 mil for the assembly-cum-MRO facilities alone (extrapolating from the Nagoya & Cameri FACOs). As for the rest, they could practically manufacture the most of the airframe at TASL (fuselage, wings, tails, control surfaces etc), if they had to. Of course it would be far more economical to manufacture few items at a larger scale, but the point is, being a massive program there are plenty of opportunities to sustain the local industry.

The F-35 may cost more over the short term, its a far better prospect over the long term. For one, its scheduled to remain in service to 2070, so the upgrade prospects are better than the SH, and far better than the F-16. The line could remain functional for the next 20 years without causing worries about obsolescence (as happened with the Jaguar).

The line will also be able to generate business (both production & overhaul) from regional F-35 operators; South Korea, Singapore, Australia... maybe even Philippines & Vietnam over the long term. And low input costs coupled with TASL's efficiency & quality controls would give it a big edge while bidding for JPO contracts (assuming India eventually signs up as a participant). TASL has already garnered a substantial chunk of such business from the aerospace majors, and looks well poised to emerge as an (BAE/Dassault-type) national champion, and a private sector counterpart to HAL.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2016 19:53

I don’t fix timelines but I am definitely interested in finishing it (Rafale fighter deal) as early as possible,” Manohar Parrikar

April 10, 2016 Posted by Anupama Airy

India wants to close the multi-billion dollar deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation as early as possible, defence minister Manohar Parrikar told DefenceAviationPost.com.

“I don’t fix timelines but I am definitely interested in finishing it as early as possible,” Parrikar said on crucial deal that will significantly improve the operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force.

Parrikar, however, said that price was an important issue. “Price is equally important. While I want the aircraft I will definitely be interested in the right price,” he said. The minister said the law ministry’s objections were being “attended to”.

The deal, sources said, is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore. India and France had signed a Memorandum of Understanding over the purchase of 36 Rafale jets during the visit of French President Francois Hollande to India in January this year. The deliveries of the nuclear-capable multi-role Rafale jets are likely to begin in 2019. “The discussions are in the final phase of price negotiations,” said an official.

The defence ministry under Parrikar has proved to be a tough negotiator bringing the cost by a significant margin.

Parrikar had earlier said he was a “tough negotiator” and wanted the “best price” for Rafale fighter jets from France. “I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation,” Parrikar had been quoted as saying.

At least 15 per cent of the total payment will have to be made immediately, if and when the deal is signed.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 19:58

Austin wrote:I don’t fix timelines but I am definitely interested in finishing it (Rafale fighter deal) as early as possible,” Manohar Parrikar

April 10, 2016

The government to government committee will be set up which will begin negotiations on the deal. The negotiations will start anytime in May and we have to conclude them as early as possible.

- Manohar Parrikar, 4 May 2015

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2016 20:14

As for the rest, they could practically manufacture the most of the airframe at TASL (fuselage, wings, tails, control surfaces etc), if they had to.

Are you sure? They could allow India to make the entire F-35 in India (forget the cost aspect).

On the DTTI/Jet engine front, find it very interesting that the progress has been reduced due to talks with GE. IF true, then it looks like that the US Gov has approved the transfer of certain techs that have normally been blocked.

Yeah, Parrikar has to keep the French in good spirits. Given that Modi approached the US - a year ago - on the possibility of MII for a Rafale alternative, I suspect the Rafale is still in play BUT only if the teens fail (read: transfer of certain techs that India has asked for).

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Apr 2016 20:22

now how about a F35 production line if the US is so inclined to partner India at a "strategic level" ? ..how come this is not seriously discussed but the F16 and 18 ?! .. or is the IAF more interested in the 16s or 18s than a F35 ? .. or the Indian government just decides it just needs another fighter line ( to hell with MMRCA trial findings on the suitability for the 16s or 18s ) and shove it on the IAF ? .. wish things were more clear ?!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2016 20:33

Some clarity.

India, US closer to signing logistic support agreement: Manohar Parrikar

PANAJI: India and the US are moving a step closer towards finalization of the long pending logistic support agreement (LAS) for peaceful purpose and the visit of US Secretary of Defence Ashton Carter to India will clear all aspects of the issue, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

In an interview, he told STOI that the LAS which has been in discussions for the last 12 years is expected to be signed in the next few weeks.

Carter is arriving in Goa on Sunday on an invitation by Parrikar as a follow up to his visit to the US a few months ago. Carter will also visit aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya at Karwar on Monday. The two leaders will later formally meet in Delhi.

Parrikar also said that India and the US are very close to finalizing transfer of technology under Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) for an aircraft carrier. Once the US agrees for technology transfer, they will become eligible to bid for manufacture of aircraft under the Make In India programme.

He said both manufacturers in the US and a few other competitors from Europe have the capability of offering a Naval variant for quick aircraft take off. The US and a few other countries have technology which provides for aircraft take off from Naval carriers within 40 seconds as against the present aircraft available with the Indian Navy which takes between three to four minutes for a take off.

Speaking more on the proposal for F/A-18 Super Hornets (Boeing) and on F-16s (Lockheed Martin) to be made in India, Parrikar said the US government has shared the presentation for the two proposals with the Ministry of Defence ahead of Carter's visit.

"Once these two proposals are scrutinized by our technical team, we may accept those proposals and then they would be eligible to bid for the Make in India jet fighters proposal," he added.

Parrikar said India has been evaluating other bidders such as SAAB from Sweden, Rafale multirole combat aircraft from France and Eurofighter Typhoon from the European consortium. He expressed the optimism that the Make in India jet fighter deal would be concluded by end of 2016 or early 2017.

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.

Parrikar said that he and Carter had developed a good equation because he (Carter) "is very open, frank and good natured and I somehow click with him". "The official talks will happen on April 12 in Delhi but during the time we spend in Goa together, he would be able to discuss some issues and informally come to conclusions on many other issues," the defence minister said. He added that informal meetings do help in building confidence with international leaders. Parrikar said that India wants good relations with the US but on an equal platform but "that does not mean we will sacrifice our independence or our relations with anyone else".

On Carter's statement that the US is looking at India as part of their global agenda and not like Pakistan, Parrikar said that is the level which the country wants to achieve. Parrikar also said that he will push the US to put pressure on Pakistan to act against terrorism. "The terrorism issue, sharing intelligence and real time intelligence on terror would be discussed during his meeting with Carter," he said. Parrikar also said that the jet engine proposal from the US, and its transfer of technology is still yet to mature. "There are still some negotiations (on jet engine) required before we can go ahead," he added.

Carter, accompanied by Parrikar, will visit the Basilica of Bom Jesus at Old Goa and the Mangueshi temple on Sunday.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2016 20:35

NRao wrote:Are you sure? They could allow India to make the entire F-35 in India (forget the cost aspect).

Just the airframe (and some basic avionics). Its already made by a range of suppliers across the globe and then shipped to Fort Worth for assembly (eg. Turkey - centre fuselage & pylons, Israel - wing sets & HMDS, Italy - wing structures, UK - aft fuselage, horizontal tails & engine components, Netherlands - flaperons & bay doors, etc., Denmark - composite sections and so on).

Most of the critical mission systems (radar, EW suite, DAS, EOTS) will continue to be produced within the US (applies to the SH & F-16 as well). Although keep in mind, 15 years on, we still import quite a bit of this stuff for the HAL-built Su-30MKI as well.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Apr 2016 20:51

From NRao's link above:

Parrikar also said that India and the US are very close to finalizing transfer of technology under Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) for an aircraft carrier. Once the US agrees for technology transfer, they will become eligible to bid for manufacture of aircraft under the Make In India programme.

Interesting, so Parrikar is linking the Make in India proposal of Boeing/LM to transfer of carrier technology specially including EMAL under DTTI.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Apr 2016 21:42

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfvnE7WVAAABkjD.jpg

check his hands.. you get the idea

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2016 21:56

ldev wrote:From NRao's link above:

Parrikar also said that India and the US are very close to finalizing transfer of technology under Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) for an aircraft carrier. Once the US agrees for technology transfer, they will become eligible to bid for manufacture of aircraft under the Make In India programme.
Interesting, so Parrikar is linking the Make in India proposal of Boeing/LM to transfer of carrier technology specially including EMAL under DTTI.

Close but no cigar.

There are two MII efforts: the carrier (and related stuff) and the air craft. Their frameworks are the same: give us the tech we need and we will THEN allow you to participate. Neither is a closed system (only you can participate) or a zero sum game (only you can contribute). The entire process is driven by India, mainly for the benefit of India, BUT also for the benefit of the participants. Win-win.

So to that extent the article does mention two MIIs

For the carrier wrote: Parrikar also said that India and the US are very close to finalizing transfer of technology under Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) for an aircraft carrier. Once the US agrees for technology transfer, they will become eligible to bid for manufacture of aircraft {carrier} under the Make In India programme.

The author did not proof read properly. Followed by:

He said both manufacturers in the US and a few other competitors from Europe have the capability of offering a Naval variant for quick aircraft take off. The US and a few other countries have technology which provides for aircraft take off from Naval carriers within 40 seconds as against the present aircraft available with the Indian Navy which takes between three to four minutes for a take off.

For the air crafts wrote: Parrikar said India has been evaluating other bidders such as SAAB from Sweden, Rafale multirole combat aircraft from France and Eurofighter Typhoon from the European consortium. He expressed the optimism that the Make in India jet fighter deal would be concluded by end of 2016 or early 2017.

Having said all that, I suspect the US leads on the carrier front and perhaps has a leg up on the air craft front too.

However, I think the absolute key here is Modi's vision of trading to get what India needs, make it a business experience where ALL participants still make monies even after the deal is long done - export air crafts. Hawks, F-16, F-18, ........

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Apr 2016 22:01

^^
DDMits strikes again!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2016 22:06

Yatha praaja, thatha Raja.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2016 08:04

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.

If the MOD knows it has need for 300 Fighter in next 15 years , Why can they build more 200 Tejas Mk2/Mk3 and another 100 MKI/SuperMKI.

What better way to stream line logistics , use mostly Indian component and gradually indiginise it and the best bet for Money.

If they add another fighter be it of any type they would just make the logistics more complex and add unnecessary burden at the cost of Tejas/MKI.

Just buy 36 odd Rafale if it works out and built more Tejas variant and use maximum DRDO weapons/systems on this . We wont be running from OEM to OEM and spending might amount for future upgrades, the cost of M2K upgrade should give an answer how much such upgrade will cost

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 12 Apr 2016 08:46

Austin wrote:
Just buy 36 odd Rafale if it works out

Is it going to really work out for the Rafale? Every other day there is another story on price or offsets that are an obstacle.

The latest report dated April 10:

India's Rafale deal in trouble over offsets and cost

Alongside enduring price differences between India and France over the deal for 36 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), announced exactly 12 months ago, sharp differences have once again resurfaced over offsets.

Official sources said senior Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials are believed to have recently rejected Thales' offer of discharging a 'substantial' portion of the mandatory 50% offset requirement of the overall Rafale contract price by helping India develop three 'smart cities'.

Thales provides equipment and systems - including avionics - that account for around a third of each Rafale's total value.

In response to Thales' offer, the MoD maintained that such an indirect offset provision was not part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2013, under which the twin-engine Rafales were being acquired via an inter-governmental agreement (IGA).

Rafale is a dead duck. Not going to happen.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Apr 2016 08:59

300 fighters! MOSTLY for the iaf, which means expect a few for the navy. My guess is that the navy's next gen requirement will also be solved here. Shornet is looking stronger by the minute. no wonder saab is making noises about naval gripen.

Crazy French...It was their deal to lose.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Apr 2016 09:29

Cain Marko wrote:300 fighters! MOSTLY for the iaf, which means expect a few for the navy. My guess is that the navy's next gen requirement will also be solved here. Shornet is looking stronger by the minute. no wonder saab is making noises about naval gripen.

...

If that 300 import number ever becomes a reality, then that would be a step back for indigenous design efforts. That many quantities would mean no more LCAs, or even AMCA. Why would the IAF need AMCA when they will have brand new imported 4th-Gen aircraft coming fresh off licensed production line for another 15-years (or longer)? These planes would be around for another 40-years.

History repeating itself. Didn't the Jaguar purchase in the late 1970s kill off Indian designs?

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 12 Apr 2016 09:33

I guess there is some editorial mistake. With MMRCA 126 , it had an option of expanding to 190), 200 is a number which can be thought of. 200 actually seems to be the highest number for IAF, excluding possible 36 Rafales and couple of possible extra MKI squadrons. I don't understand 300 fighters unless we are talking about some textbook/reported requirement of 55 squadrons to tackle Pakistan+China.

PS - Phew!! Which airforce other than USAF or Chinese even talk about 300 fighter planes.I wish Everest was 10kms taller than what is from Kashmir to NE states.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Apr 2016 10:26

ldev wrote:
India's Rafale deal in trouble over offsets and cost

Official sources said senior Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials are believed to have recently rejected Thales' offer of discharging a 'substantial' portion of the mandatory 50% offset requirement of the overall Rafale contract price by helping India develop three 'smart cities'.
.

What What? Next they will offer ToT for building roads and gutters in Namma Bengaluru since we do not seem to have technology to build decent roads in Bengaluru ourselves. How dare you filthy SDREs dreamt of building ultra TFTA 4** gen (4++ is old and cliché now) Aircrafts, when you cannot even built decent roads and gutters in your Aerospace city?? Take this and be happy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2016 11:00

That Report from Janes is Rahul Bedi stuff , One need to have leap of faith to believe what he says.

MOD has already stated many times that all is agree except the price

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Apr 2016 11:12

300 fighters is almost an air force by itself ..but i guess they will be mostly replacements in the time frames they can come ?