Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 25 Feb 2010 11:44

D Roy wrote:And while some of us do get carried away about Weegurs and their rights , do we really want to see an "independent" Turkestan.

Especially one that is run by proto-Talibs and is under the financial control of the Goras and has long lost ethnic affinity to Turkey. ... because that country has routinely being supplying weapons to the Pakis and some neo-ottoman wet dreams have surfaced as well. ... In my opinion turkey resembles to a great extent our very own Pukistan with its ethnic divergences yet broad religious "similarities". and both after all see themselves as the "dethroned" children of the Ottoman and Mughal empires.

Apt comparison indeed. The misplaced sympathy for weeghurs is based on the same flawed strategy that motivated US to intervene in Af'stan with the belief that religious radicalism of the RoP kind can some how be controlled and used for political purposes and can be unwound at will when the objectives are achieved.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 25 Feb 2010 11:50

ramana sir.

The Haqqanis hail from the Zadran qaum (tribe), who are mostly based in Paktia and Khost provinces
in the east of Afghanistan. Zadran is sub-tribe of bigger ghilzai tribe.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 25 Feb 2010 12:04

Pak offers captured Taliban to Afghanistan

ISLAMABAD—Pakistan offered to hand over a detained senior Taliban leader to Afghan authorities, as officials from the two nations discussed broadening their cooperation in fighting the insurgency.

Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik said after a meeting here with his Afghan counterpart, Mohammed Hanif Atmar, that Islamabad was expecting a formal request from Kabul to extradite Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, the Afghan Taliban's operations chief.

"When we receive a formal request from the Afghan government, we will honor it," Mr. Malik said Wednesday.

Pakistan should hand over some people to India too. Many requests have been made in the past.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 25 Feb 2010 12:33

Mullahs, go to google and type this:
"Why is there"

Note the first auto suggestion:
"Why is there a dead pakistani on my couch"

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 25 Feb 2010 12:38

Clinton asks US to approve USD 3.2 bn aid to Pak

Identifying Pakistan as a frontline State along with Afghanistan and Iraq, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Thursday asked American lawmakers to approve the Obama Administration's proposal of USD 3.2 billion civil and military aid to Islamabad for the fiscal year 2011.

"In Pakistan, our request includes USD 3.2 billion to combat extremism, promote economic development, strengthen democratic institutions, and build a long-term relationship with the Pakistani people," Clinton said in her testimony before a key Congressional panel.

Appreciating the recent steps taken by President Asif Ali Zardari government, Clinton said Obama Administration has committed some large signature energy projects, because part of their economic challenge is keeping the power on and keeping those factories humming.

"I've ordered a redirection of our aid so that we produce results that are in line with the needs and aspirations of the Pakistani people. I think we should explore additional opportunities that might increase more trade, remove more barriers," she said, adding the Pakistanis have to do more as well.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Feb 2010 12:39

D Roy wrote:
exactly the reasons why the Chinese will never "kill off" TSP but continue to foster it.

That's exactly the point.

They will - If they can trust us. And that trust can ultimately come out of economics.

Economics will show that India and China have a convergence with no real divergence.
.....
China will be very foolish if it continues to be the second choice to a rentier whore which is increasingly becoming a full time mistress of the Goras.

If they have not understood this already, we must impress it upon them. May be the Japanese can help too.

Good points, D Roy.

But the problem is that, just like the Pakis, the MMS regime is also a rentier whore of western elites. The BJP is no messiah either.

Sad to say, it was the Communist Party of China that saved our asses at Copenhagen - the good doctor MMS and his sidekick Jairam Ramesh were bent on screwing SDREs as much as they could possibly get away with.

In fact, the situation today is very similar to the situation in the 1950's. Nehru and Krishna Menon were very much slaves of the west, even going so far as to provide services to the CIA for mounting covert operations in Tibet. That eventually led to the conflict of 1962. Not that I am excusing the conduct of the Chinese, which was also quite blame-worthy.

As one never tires of saying, the solution to myriad problems begins with putting in place a trustworthy voting mechanism.

As regards Turkey you write:

Its good that we have a turkey thread now, because that country has routinely being supplying weapons to the Pakis and some neo-ottoman wet dreams have surfaced as well. The new non-elected Foreign minister has some dangerous ideas and I suspect Gora collusion in it.

You are not quite correct as regards Turkey. Many of the Turkish military elites, including founder Ataturk, have been drawn from the Donmeh crypto-Jewish community. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh) The common Turks are trying to establish democracy, and sometimes the pendulum may swing too far to the other side, towards religious extremism. But India should continue supporting democracy in Turkey.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Feb 2010 12:58

Just like India should continue to support democracy in Pakistan

.

However the AKP's rise shows there is a Turkey beyond the supposedly ultra secular Kemalists and Army.

In fact if you believe our WKK types most of Pakistan is secular to and wants "Aman" Chain and Shanti. To stretch a point unlike Turkey, Pakistan has never really elected an "Islamist" Party to a majority

He he.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2010 13:53

This is gradually turning into a Indo-China discussion but anyway to reply to D Roys comment, for forseeable future China and India will continue to export products/services to west and that be their primary source of instant wealth. And hence compete. Same goes for oil wealth, mineral rights and so on....India is a more domesticated economy unlike PRC but that does not, at least not yet, makes our economies complimentary...

Both PRC and India have their work cut out to impress each other on their strategic priorities and get the other to play ball. It is NOT India's baby any more than it is China's. China has tried this TSP line and the results speak for themselves. It is up to them to undo the damage.

Asking Japs to convince China about India is somewhat like asking Mullah Omar to convince Obama on how nice George Bush is...

Let us also be VERY WARY of this "Unkil is out to wreck Indo-China friendship" line being peddled by MKB, Stalinists, Chindu et al and not repeat is without enough caveats. What they want us to believe is that China is a saint and has done no harm, whereas all wrong is on our part. The day PRC becomes a democracy where rule of law, ethics and public opinion matters, yes, we can think along those lines, not now..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2010 13:56

Rudradev wrote: Given this, the last thing they will do is abandon the one source of leverage they have against us.

It all boils down to cost benefit analysis. They have tried this line for years now, with known results. Costs are mounting...benefits are increasingly dubious.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2010 14:02

D Roy wrote:To stretch a point unlike Turkey, Pakistan has never really elected an "Islamist" Party to a majority

He he.

There is boric acid and there is sulphuric acid, both are acids...there is Pakbarian Islamic parties and there is Turkish AKP. Actually from a objective scale, PPP/PML are much more Islamic than AKP can ever hope to be...

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 25 Feb 2010 14:40

Actually,

There is more complimentarity than one would think. Take the steel sector for instance- we export loads of iron ore to china and we do not do it for the love of god. when people get all swarmy about iron ore exports to china they forget that we get something in return that is as crucial to our own steel sector- met coke.
Now neither the chinese will get iron ore at the prices that they get from us from anyone else and nor will we get met coke cheaper elsewhere.

As far as the worldwide competition for resources is concerned, it applies to all other countries including the US. It so happens that the US has already cornered all the best fruit and it is the leftovers ( except Iran) that India and China are seemingly locked in a battle for.

In my opinion, as a person who watches the commodity sector closely , there can be a middle ground and the competition for resources is actually a global business.

As far as Japan is concerned the new dispensation has already sending out feelers of the sort I am indicating. Japan is China's number one investor and will soon be India's number one investor as well.
China already oversells to the west and this situation is bound to get corrected as the goras try to get their economies out of thwe recession. I predict a revival of domestic american manufacturing in the not so distant future. it'll be high cost but it will be thrust down the throat of the american consumer for national interest.

Finally turning to turkey,'

The Pak army was till not so long ago seen as a set of whiskey swilling sandhurst educated types before Zia came in. from what we have seen in the last twenty years the pull of Islam is very difficult to resist for some people and sooner or later Jihadist tendencies start developing in a critical mass. If the AKP is not out of power of soon, it will humble the turk army and a revanchist islamist indoctrination may begin. Basically combine angst about "oppression of the faithful" with oh the glory days of the caliphate.

especially if turkey falls into economic problems.Ultimately Islamism is the ultimate expression of upward mobility for many people in the Islamic world. they counter the modernized elite by showing their piety. sooner or later the turkish military will have a critical mass of soldiers and officers who are from these backgrounds and social strata.

They way the chinese are trying to get into the Indian markets shows their intent. In any case draining the swamp is a 20-30 year game. Plenty of time to crystallize the re-alignment that I am suggesting

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2010 14:50

I do agree that we can co-operate where we can with China and certainly avoid foolish over-reactions such as denying visas to Chinese workers, not buying from Huawei etc. In fact it is good because if their chimney's collapse it is their workers that get killed and they dont have to pay them compensation...May be along the way we find increased trust that builds momentum for further cooperation...intra Asian cooperation is the way to go if this century is to be Asian century at all.

I sincerely do hope Turkey stays different and not get a free ride on the slippery slope of Islamism that has ultimate destination KSA-type society. Anyway, if it does, it just another fanatic Islamic society to the long list, big news..but institutions like army have strong way of molding a person instead of getting mould by the recruits. For instance, same Abdul joining TSP army becomes a fanatic jehadi and if he joins Turkish army he becomes a Ilker Basbug...it is the institution...or at least I hope it is...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 15:43

The Punjab Nexus

Several MNAs, including former information minister Sherry Rehman, have raised in the National Assembly the issue of 'jihadi' groups operating in Punjab and the failure of the provincial government to act against them in any way. A point has been raised about the use of these groups for political advantage. The question regarding groups such as those based in southern Punjab has of course come up before. It is hard to say what the Punjab government's approach is or what policy is being pursued. But a few things are clear. We need to look at militancy as a whole, and not distinguish between the various strands that constitute it. That this has been done in the past is one reason why the problem is so acute today. The strategy needs to be changed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 16:51

India behind its own terror attacks: Rehman Malik

Pakistan on Thursday claimed “Indian networks” were behind the terror attacks in Mumbai and on the Samjhauta Express and Indian Parliament.

Without giving any evidence to substantiate the claims, Interior Minister Rehman Malik said a terrorist assault of the magnitude of the Mumbai attacks could not have been carried out without the backing of an “Indian network.”

“I had said very openly during a press conference that such a major terrorist incident like the Mumbai attacks could not have happened without the involvement of an Indian network,” he told reporters after appearing in the Lahore High Court in connection with the hearing of a case.

“There was (an Indian) network when the Samjhauta Express was (attacked in 2007)... There was also (an Indian) network involved in the attack on Indian Parliament (in 2001),” Mr. Malik said. “These are three networks that have been identified as existing in India,” he claimed without giving further details.

Mr. Malik referred to comments by Home Minister P. Chidambaram about Abu Jindal, a suspected Indian handler of the Mumbai attacks, to back his contention about the involvement of an “Indian network” in the incident. “Time proved me right when Chidambaram said that Abu Jindal was involved. That means there is a network,” he said.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 25 Feb 2010 17:20

CIA extends war on terror to Peshawar, Quetta in Pak
Close cooperation

"Successful missions sometimes end with American and Pakistani spies toasting one another with Johnnie Walker Blue Label whisky, a gift from the CIA," the report said.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Feb 2010 17:32

'This is Radio Pakistan from New Delhi'

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 18:13

India gives 3 dossiers to Pakistan and demands handing over prof. Hafeez Saeed

It would be interesting to see how the 'face reader' handled the situation.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Feb 2010 18:37

The Sify article on Pakistan: Clearly the authors are regular lurkers/ contributors here..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 18:39

Indeed, they are.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 18:56

Pak Foreign Secretary rejects dossier as a piece of literature

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2010 19:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 616258.cms

All weather friend and the paymasters of our Stalinist rapist goons repeats the common backhanded compliment - 'India and Pakistan are major countries in South Asia'

Wonder when our FM will get the b..s to start describing PRC as 'one of the countries in E.Asia'

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 25 Feb 2010 20:24

SSridhar wrote:Pak Foreign Secretary rejects dossier as a piece of literature

India's foreign policy advisors are very weak. I also believe that their views are very myopic and "Chalta hai" type without any vision or urgency. This is compounded by the fact that there is no pro-active strategy in any corner around these foreign policy buildings that is dedicated to coordination of intelligence activities from the deepest quarters of PoK, Baluchistan, Sindh or Pashtunistan/Pakjab. Why dont we invest heavily in intelligence gathering operation inside pakistan and give full signal to covert operation inside pakistan. If I were an Indian prime-minister, I would have ordered to blow the entire terrorists conference by multiple car-bomb attacks. I think there is not a single leader in India with balls to do something like what Israel did with Hamas leader. Benjamin Netanyahu is the leader with balls. Forget about doing it first, we dont even learn from others.
Living in constant fear of death chasing them will help these terorrists shits to realise what it means to live in fear. Alas...India still awaits that leader... I pity that a nation of 1.1 Billion people sits and watches the video of Terrorists conference ! I really cant believe that if we cant even figure out how to fight a propaganda war (forget about fighting it) how will we be able to fight a real war involving Pakistan and China...and perhaps win it.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Feb 2010 20:28

US wants resumption of talks: Hillary

So, all this dossier, which has been dismissed as a mere piece of paper, and the brave request to hand over Prof. Hafeez Saeed will cut no ice with Pakistan because both the US & China want resumption of talks. It will be interesting to see what would be the next steps for India. As usual, Pakistan would say that the ball is in India's court having already rejected the terror-related charges.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Feb 2010 20:35

“India has had one 26/11, we have had a 1000 Mumbais.”

Salman Bashir, Pak. Foreign Secy.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 25 Feb 2010 20:47

India names serving porki army p** in 26/11

Sen_K · Post by **Sen_K** » 25 Feb 2010 20:53

India supplies weapons to Porki terrorists: Bashir

Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir told reporters here that there was "clear evidence of (Indian) activities prejudicial to Pakistan's security being undertaken from foreign soil, including efforts at destabilization, supply of weapons to militants and terrorists".

"We have ample evidence, including photographic evidence, of these activities."

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Feb 2010 21:23

ashish raval wrote: I really cant believe that if we cant even figure out how to fight a propaganda war (forget about fighting it) how will we be able to fight a real war involving Pakistan and China...and perhaps win it.

Absolutely, no amount of Chankayan spin can earse the humilation piled on us by this terrorist state. And note, who the big winner is here. You guessed it, Unkil & his poodles. Now that TSP has scored a "victory" over SDREs with Unkil's help in pushing their proxy MMS to hold this tamasha, TSP has shown how maacho it is to its Abduls, and silently Kiyani and Co will ask how high when Unkil asks it to jump.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 25 Feb 2010 21:33

ArmenT wrote:Mullahs, go to google and type this:
"Why is there"

Note the first auto suggestion:
"Why is there a dead pakistani on my couch"

Even Paki jokes need Indian help.

The reference is to Sayid Jarrah, an Iraqi character played by Naveen Andrews. (Lost s5e2)

http://thetvlegion.com/lost-s5e2-the-lie/

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 25 Feb 2010 21:44

The failure of Republic of India to hold the line strong of no-talks-until-elimination-by-hook-or-crook-of-all-11/26-architects-in-Pakistan is the real national humiliation. No amount of Pakistani grand-standing or tantrums or threats compare to the absolute lack of the Indian initiative to go after a vengeanceful revenge. Truth in the absence of a strong will, and talk without any possibility of action, shall never triumph.

If Indian PM Morarji Desai dismantled action-network within Pakistan, PM Manmohan is further debilitating the state within and he is no Singh.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2010 21:44

amdavadi wrote:ramana sir.

The Haqqanis hail from the Zadran qaum (tribe), who are mostly based in Paktia and Khost provinces
in the east of Afghanistan. Zadran is sub-tribe of bigger ghilzai tribe.

Expect the Mullah Omar faction of Quetta Shura and the Haqqanis to merge as they consolidate ghilzai forces.

Afghanistan should take up the TSP offer of Mullah Barader and extricate him out of TSP.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 25 Feb 2010 21:48

Lost passport

I needed the visa to attend a joint programme of the Environmental Change Institute of Oxford University and Leadership in Environment and Development International in October. My passport has been missing since then

This indicates a loophole in the system of the UK Border Agency, a discriminatory treatment with Pakistanis , depriving them of opportunities of international significance .

Although I am not sure as to how much the discriminators will respond to this letter, I am sure that there is little interest at the UK Border Agency and British High Commissions and Embassies to search for lost or stolen passports like mine , yet I am making an effort to spread the word against it, as my passport has a valid US visa and can be used for any purpose. - My name is Khan and I am not a terrorist

There is a rumour that UK Border Agency has employed Indians in Abu Dhabi for the processing of passports and they are stealing passports of Pakistanis that have value, have valid visas and their stealing can deprive Pakistanis like me of an opportunity to attend international meetings and can deprive us of an opportunity to represent Pakistan at international forums.

I would appeal to the Prime Minister of Pakistan, the President of Pakistan, the Foreign Minister, the Ambassador of Pakistan to the United Kingdom to intervene and take up the situation with the UK Border Agency as to why there is this discrimination with Pakistan and Pakistanis.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Feb 2010 22:20

Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao and her Pakistani counterpart Salman Bashir before the start of bilateral talks in New Delhi. Photo: AP

munna · Post by **munna** » 25 Feb 2010 22:28

Acharya wrote:Indian Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao and her Pakistani counterpart Salman Bashir before the start of bilateral talks in New Delhi. Photo: AP

Err... but the TFT FS of Land-e-pure looks shorter than SDRE FS

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2010 22:29

And in a cheap ill fitting suit!

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Feb 2010 22:32

ramana wrote:Expect the Mullah Omar faction of Quetta Shura and the Haqqanis to merge as they consolidate ghilzai forces.

Logically that makes sense, but historically the Haqqanis, Omar and Hikmetyar never liked each other and could never coagulate together. Haqqanis have a fiefdom in the same sense as Gen. Dostum in Mazar, Ismail Khan in Herat etc. But Omar is more of a figurehead with the fiefdom part left for people like Baradar.

BTW, TSPA/ISI themselves likely want to keep Haqqanis and Omar apart because that has been their modus operandi - don't let a proxy become too strong because you might lose control of them.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Feb 2010 22:35

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but what is the logic of holding talks when both sides are publicly admitting that nothing is going to be gained from them? Are we just showing them that this is their last chance?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2010 22:46

^ Rangudu, Consolidation of Ghilzai forces is a must in this new order. All that ISI has to do is hand over or give US the coordinates of reluctant Talibs to US to do the needful. And then you have automatic consolidation.

Consolidation is needed as Barader, despite being a cheddi yar of Omar, but a Popalzai, was negotiating with Karzai regime. So if Ghilzais dont consolidate they will all be negated separately and thus ISI clout will be reduced.

I think Karzai regime should extricate Barader from TSP clutches. Its the best option to remove the Poplazais from the Taliban which becomes a factional force of disgruntled Ghilzais who might merge with the larger grouping of Ghilzais, east of Durand Line.

-------
Carl_T, Indian imperative to hold talks is :

- US pressure to provide relief - talking allows US to press TSP to do more as India is opbvously not a belligerent.
- India can show it has gone more than needed despite the Mumbai 26/11 attack yet gets hit with Pune

TSP imperative is to claim ascendency over India and having compelled them to the talks despite not doing anything that India wanted post 26/11. This plays to the jihadi gallery to show they can be trusted with being in power.

Its like the dipolmatic mission of Prince Ullukh (Shakuni's son) on behalf of the Kauravas to the Pandavas before the Mahabharata. Inconsequential but satisfying the Kaurava ego.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Feb 2010 22:48

BSF seizes 15 kg heroin at India-Pakistan border

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Feb 2010 22:49

ramana

I agree. But what I'm trying to say is not that the consolidation will not happen.

Rather, I bet that once TSPA realizes that a consolidation is happening, it will also see that its role will be reduced after any consolidation.

See TSPA is the classic bania in this scheme, ironically. It is the middleman and it will need to be seen as the only party that can bring Afghan factions together.

If Haqqani and Omar were to unite, they will each no longer be so dependent on ISI. Think about it.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Feb 2010 22:55

ramana wrote:
TSP imperative is to claim ascendency over India and having compelled them to the talks despite not doing anything that India wanted post 26/11. This plays to the jihadi gallery to show they can be trusted with being in power.

TSP govt has only one audience - it is the internal population. It has to survive. The TSP govt does not care what the external world thinks since it has got used to getting the money it wants.
Competing forces inside the military and the jihadi enforcers, forces the govt to grandstand over India.