India-US Relations : News and Discussion

[KLNMurthy]

Dunno but Democrats seem to come with a lot of baggage and a supercilious attitude. Obama's ref to religion etc was unnecessary. Would he do so after being treated with such graciousness by his western partners?
Somehow the bumbling Bush types were better. They at least wore their hearts on their sleeve or so it seemed. As versus this two steps forward one step backward tango Obama indulges in

The religious freedom reference grated, but we need not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Also, IMO the Hindu side has done a bad job of framing the ghar walasi debate even for itself, allowing its enemies to frame it as an attack on religious liberty, when it is the exact opposite of that. As another BRFite insightfully noted, it appears that the West largely takes its cue from the sentiments that it sees coming out of India, so Obama's statement can also be understood with that in mind.

Time and again I see this: we do an at best indifferent job of communication and propaganda but expect others to understand us by doing their own thinking, on the right dharmic lines. The world doesnt work like that.

[KLNMurthy]

KLN Murthy, the west sponsors folks in India who put out the messages they want, and turns around and cites those reports as being cause for concern. Lets not be naive here. The Hindu side can frame the ghar wapsi debate any which way it wants, but it is the enemy and will be treated as such. No amount of grovelling or explanations from them will work. Ultimately, its Indias weakness that we have to put up with the pomposity of Obamas who cant even address race issues in their own country, but seek to hector others. But it will change.

Does the West consist of supermen while we poor SDRE yindoos are hapless childlike targets only?

Is "grovelling explanation" the only means you can think of for influencing the narrative?

Begging your pardon, I couldn't have constructed a better example than your post to show why we keep losing the propaganda war.

It is a serious grownup business and we need to learn how to go about it.

[sivab]

Devirupa Mitra @DevirupaM · 31m 31 minutes ago

#JUSTIN: Foreign secretary Sujatha Singh has apparently resigned,clearing decks for appointmnt of S Jaishankar, who was to retire on Jan 31.

Hindustan Times @htTweets · 44m 44 minutes ago

#Breaking Indian ambassador to US S Jaishankar to be next foreign secretary

[schinnas]

KLNMurthy-hi:
Fully agreed. For a start, many in west are just not aware of the excesses committed by Xtian missionaries in India. How they use inducements and coersion to convert, how the helpless villagers converted at a vulnerable point in their life are asked to walk on Hindu images of God, how false propoganda is mounted on India's cultural and traditional icons. Exposing these with hidden cameras, detailed exposes in sympathetic media and social media and creating a big media rukus would have put EJs in the defensive.

We are not good in doing such PR war.

[sanjaykumar]

Can we see hidden camera interviews of meretricious missionaries' minions in the Indian media first, to educate Indians including Christians?

[SaiK]

what about archaic references of snake charming and caste system and the idea of India itself represented in the history text books of khaan 6th grade socials?

[Tuvaluan]

Obama's reference to religious freedom in India is the same old horsesh!t trotted out by the USCIRF year after year, where they object to the right of any country to ban religious conversions. India should go ahead and do just that -- I used to be against this, but clearly religious conversion is used to subvert the unity of India going by the behavior of all the converts in terms of their hateful and vicious attitudes to the majority community today.

[sanjaykumar]

USCRIF? Let it first deal with them Saudis and Chinese. It is meant more for the bible thumpers anyway.

In 15 years time the US might well have an Office for Freedom from Religion. Don't sweat it.

[Manny]

= ..... attitudes to the majority community today.

I cannot stress this enough.

Quote "

Never forget: The Muslims and Christians are the world's two largest Goliaths!

India's minorities are the Sikhs, Jains, Parsies, the non converted tribals and the Jews! Muslims and christians are not minorities anywhere. An Indian Catholic who part of an organization that goes to Vatican with brotherhood of all Catholics from around the world... How is he a minority? for that matter a Christian like Manu Josepsh writes an editorial for the NYTimes having a sympathetic ears of the christians from the world..how is he a minority? How is a Muslim who goes on Haj and who has a universal brotherhood of Muslims from around the world a minority?

The question we have to ask is..would we be so concerned if half the population becomes Sikh or Jains? the answer is IMO is NO! Cause Sikhs and Jains may worship another deity..but they don't become anti Hindus. They don't collude even passively with foreigners against India or Hindus Interest.

So its really not about Hindus converting to another faith.

The issue at large is, Hindus becoming enemies of their own fellow Indians.. This is the concern.

Tell a Hindu about the divinity of Jesus..the Hindu would accept Jesus and place a photo of Jesus or a cross next to his other Pantheon of Hindu deities he prays to. cause a Hindu by nature is accommodating and actually wonderful. .But the evangelical pastor is not contended that the Hindu respects Jesus ...but now demands that this Hindu reject all other deities to the exclusion of Jesus...

This is the poison pill of evangelical christianity. And this Poison Pill (The Nicene creed) cannot be introduced under the guise of "Secularism"

India should give no quarters to this predatory hate.

[Shreeman]

^^^ FMS.

ps -- re. russia, language barrier and lack of promotion of russia unlike the dozens of US libraries and centers. Russia also never "invited" indian workers. Cut out the professionals and relatives and Rusdia will come our on top in travel.

Commerce is different, but food export should rise, defense import/export should rise. Russian trade wont go down. But it wont be comparable to US simply because of services and BPO. $10-15B is not miniscule for india. Not $100B, but not small either.

Russia centres

https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

"Cut out the professionals and relatives and Rusdia will come our on top in travel."

Cut out the cold, the unfriendly natives who mistake you for the people from the Caucasus/Roma and the general suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant, and Russia might make it into the top 10.

They want to sell us arms and stakes in oilfields. They only want to import food now because the Ruble has collapsed against the Euro and USD.

I can't understand this affection for Russia especially when it is not reciprocated.

Not aimed at you Shreeman, just a reaction.

Cosmo,

Hate is everwhere. Get used to it if you are brown.

The russians too flip indian people off by swimming naked. Even if it is a closed beach. It is difficult to imagine talking only arms/oilfields, when nuclear reactors too ought to have be pointed out. The bartering of food for arms. The transfer of technologies without any "regimes". Or the trade in rupees/rubles. There were never any hard currency issues until the indians/russians tried to become westernized 89 onward. You can point out weapons, but do also note how India paid for them. And why they had to buy them.

I dont think there is a basis for Russians systematically hating Indians. I have only ever met expats and they have shown more knowledge, understanding, and interest in old India than even bollywood pasand americans. There are entire states in the american south that are poor choices for an indian. And any absolute racism in Russia === KKK types.

Trade with Russia was and is still not the big public priority for India. Nor are people contacts. There is no point in showing russian center links, they were not glamorized. And the language barrier was brought up ahead of a hindi speaker being warned of TN (and told to speak English only, and keep a low profile!).

This is not the thread for glorifying russian contributions to India. Or the USSR. Or the USA. Until the chinese took over manufacturing, there was no place for acknowledging them either. Nor did Indian public know maruti==pak suzuki.

The indian governments of the time shaped everything, from UK style TV licenses to number of cars produced. The lack of integration with either Russia or USA was the non-aligned choice. Rakesh Shatma is forgotten. Kalpana chawla has a satellite named after her.

No, we generally dont acknowledge the ways the US has helped and hurt either. No one taks of 62, 65, 71, 74, 79, 98 now. India could have brought up 71 style fleet-streaming into the bay, no? No one talks Bhopal either.

On a white people basis the farther west you go, the more hate for a brown person there is. Canada is cold. Cold is not the reason. Government indifference is.

Lets move on with the business of this thread, this tangent has no future.

[Karan M]

KLN Murthy, the west sponsors folks in India who put out the messages they want, and turns around and cites those reports as being cause for concern. Lets not be naive here. The Hindu side can frame the ghar wapsi debate any which way it wants, but it is the enemy and will be treated as such. No amount of grovelling or explanations from them will work. Ultimately, its Indias weakness that we have to put up with the pomposity of Obamas who cant even address race issues in their own country, but seek to hector others. But it will change.

Does the West consist of supermen while we poor SDRE yindoos are hapless childlike targets only?

Is "grovelling explanation" the only means you can think of for influencing the narrative?

Begging your pardon, I couldn't have constructed a better example than your post to show why we keep losing the propaganda war.

It is a serious grownup business and we need to learn how to go about it.

language issues much? grovelling or explanations. not "grovelling explanations". in short, both have been tried & have limited outcomes.

Actually your defense of Obamas behavior by saying that he didnt know what he was doing and pinning it on local failure (ghar wapsi not fancily explained onlee) is an exact example of the narrative issue.

my point is even if we were to be super sophisticated about the ghar wapsi issue (and locked down the narrative on our side), it would still be spun the other way.

cut to the chase, can you admit the fact that the US and other powers use indian agencies to create a narrative which they adopt? your claim that "we are not hapless children onlee" ignores the fact that the west has had 60+ years to create their centers of influence in india & also pump in huge amounts of money dwarfing what even our allocations for ministries are, for conversion and subversion.

hey, dont take my word for it. what was undone could be redone too
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/oba ... odi-policy

Here you are, blaming ghar wapsi, lack of sophistication and similar stuff for the behavior of those who dominate narrative & ensure a single minded agenda is maintained.

wouldnt you agree this claim is as flawed as, hey if i started wearing better clothes and making salutes instead of tired dhotis and doing a pranam, i would be better understood. the guy who will kowtow to some arab wearing a flowing dress is doing so because latter has oil. not because of any culture, or understanding.

Instead of acknowledgwhat we are up against & changing the grounds on which the battle is fought (see pankajs's post about that) you claim we should be engaging in some "serious grownup business" by engaging in a fight where of course the rulebook and the entire narrative is being framed by the other side.

we should do our own thing & give a fig for what Obama, NYT etc think & start being ruthless about our interests. i am inclined to believe given Modis record he has no qualms in understanding whom he is dealing with & majboori main gadhe ko.. and all that. but we are under no compulsion to sugercoat the reality of obamas obnoxious behavior after he was being treated like a grade A dignitary.

that part is what i contested. you claimed they were influenced by what local groups say to make their ignorant comments. hardly, they are mendacious, and sponsor these groups to further their agenda.

if it was a PRC guy doing the same, we would have excoriated his statements.

what makes Ombaba any different? same standards.

we are a developing country and US has el power, so we have to take it on the chin. but, hey, some amount of latitude in calling it what it is, thats ok too.

[Karan M]

KLNMurthy-hi:
Fully agreed. For a start, many in west are just not aware of the excesses committed by Xtian missionaries in India. How they use inducements and coersion to convert, how the helpless villagers converted at a vulnerable point in their life are asked to walk on Hindu images of God, how false propoganda is mounted on India's cultural and traditional icons. Exposing these with hidden cameras, detailed exposes in sympathetic media and social media and creating a big media rukus would have put EJs in the defensive.

We are not good in doing such PR war.

are sir, by all means do the PR war. all i am saying is its a war. not an issue of ignorance. the "other side" considers it a conflict and are using every trick in the book.

[Karan M]

Ultimately, its Indias weakness that we have to put up with the pomposity of Obamas who cant even address race issues in their own country, but seek to hector others. But it will change.


That's a bit unfair. Obama is acutely aware that White people's dogs live better in California than most Blacks do in the country. They have health care, good nutrition, can live out their expected life span, are not subject to controversial public executions etc. It seems only NYT reporters are naive of the facts at home.

Now most White liberals do know this, however any scociety has an inertia and it will take time to change course. The fact that they elected Obama is one of the most significant events in Euro/Judeo-Christian history. One can't deny them that.

If I may ask, Jews were heavily involved in the civil rights movement of the 1960s, where are Indians in the US, in Ferguson, in Florida?

hardly unfair. just stating it as things are. if Obama can't do diddly about his own people in his own country, his hectoring other folks on much less is hypocrisy of the highest order & just shows he is behaving like a boor. behaving ignobly with the folks who invite him and behave with utmost decorum.

must be how civilized folks behave in the west. gandhi's remarks and all.

Americans can do what they do in ferguson or otherwise. if you feel so strongly about it, being a North American and all make your way down there and holler away. but as things stand, pot kettle dark and all that for Obama and co.

[member_22733]

The religious "tolerance" BS was an insult of the highest order. It was almost like a parting shot by someone who lost an argument. There was no need for it.

There are so many problems in the US that show just how much "southward" it has gone (literally), and the man has the audacity to lecture us with that snarky confidence.

[SaiK]

India is already religiously tolerant society.. the BS (bijnej sense) is for the invading religious mindsets to take the tolerance route is the message to be read, interpreted and broadcasted. If one has done nothing wrong, one should not fear of wrong doing. If you are struggling with this, then this is bad for indic ethos.

[ramana]

KLNM, Thanks. Now let me say my views:

- NaMO has bought two years at the minimum.
- By getting the US President (note I didn't say Obama) to be the chief guest at RDay he has defused the Anglo-Saxon West's antipathy towards India.
All the rest are small steps.

Our task now is to come up with possible counter moves and ways to discern them.

Welcome to GDF....

[arshyam]

Obama's reference to religious freedom in India is the same old horsesh!t trotted out by the USCIRF year after year, where they object to the right of any country to ban religious conversions. India should go ahead and do just that -- I used to be against this, but clearly religious conversion is used to subvert the unity of India going by the behavior of all the converts in terms of their hateful and vicious attitudes to the majority community today.

Tuvaluan-ji, any action we take reg. conversions should be dictated by our requirements. IMHO, today's GoI is doing that, by squeezing the funding and implementing the existing law as-is. Soon, they may release the census data and realize that more needs to be done, and they may update/bring in new laws to tackle this menace.

My point is, we shouldn't do anything only in order to respond to Ombaba. What he said was not surprising, I, for one, was waiting to hear some sanctimonious BS like that, 'cos he is expected to do so. Even he didn't, we can be assured that the drain inspectors (or monkey inspectors these days) of NYT types would publish something on those lines. So we only have to be ready to talk back in the same coin by having a question placed by some humble reporter in a future press conf, and have Mr. Akbaruddin respond in his characteristic bluntness. Why take a bazooka to a knife-fight?

Finally, we must keep in mind that, after all this pappi-jhappi, the following facts exist:
1. Indian insurers will have to bear the cost of nuke accidents (#nothappy)
2. Ombaba is a democrat, so one cannot trust him. Ar Karan-ji put it, Repubs are at least open about their beliefs and therefore much better.
3. In spite of Modi's bonhomie with Ombaba, the person is different from the state, and the US SD is populated by John Kerry types, and who won't think twice about carrying on their unfriendly activities in India.
4. End of next year, the Dems will most likely be out of a job, and the US system replaces pretty much everybody in DC when the admin changes. So bonhomie with the person can only go so far.

[member_22733]

Thats right:

No one is questioning your right to worship Shiva at home, but what if somebody goes and installs a statue of Shiva in a mosque? Would it be right? Similarly, is it right to have churches in Tirupati and a mosque at Katra (Vaishno Devi) having no Muslim population. Obama reflected these concerns,” Jain said.

Obama's barb on religious freedom aimed at missionaries and Islamic clerics, thinks VHP

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 11488.aspx

Beautiful! Was VHP always like this? If not, kudos to them for starting the turn the tables on western morality errr ... chicanery.

[SaiK]

good.. that is exactly what should be reflected after my post!

[arshyam]

USCRIF? Let it first deal with them Saudis and Chinese. It is meant more for the bible thumpers anyway.

Whether it is meant for bible thumpers or not, our own media will give them a pedestal and excoriate our govt if this agency cooks up something. The global media will follow and point at Indian media to justify their scathing comments. If our media does not support such efforts, the NYT/WaPo types would step in to do the needful. See their portrayal of Godhra and the subsequent campaign against Modi. We can ignore them only at our peril. Strongly worded rebuttals with a large mirror to expose hypocrisy is the only credible response.

[MurthyB]

How Did Obama Play In India? We Ask 4 Villagers To Weigh In

What are your thoughts about President Obama?

Simpson: He is better than Mr. Bush, I think! I also salute him that he takes a stern stance on terrorism. I am confused why he is black when America is white .

Manju: I don't know who he is ... but I am happy that I know now after you told me.

Elizabeth: I have read about him in a newspaper. I think he is bringing America up and helping the black community in the country.

Alagarsamy: I'm not so much interested in the political affairs of America. I saw pictures of Obama during the Republic Day parade.

[pankajs]

India-US track 2 > Watch Shyam Saran forcefully put his views across in his opening remarks ... Watch him hit the climate change question out of the park. Something on the line ".. we don't have to catchup with US and China but the rest of the world has to catch up with us ..." What a line!! Given our per capita carbon emission he has nailed it!

President Obama’s Visit to India: A Leap Forward in the Bilateral Partnership?

[UlanBatori]

Alagarsamy: I'm not so much interested in the political affairs of America. I saw pictures of Obama during the Republic Day parade.

Finally! A Real Indian gets a voice on the 'mainstream media'.
+1,200,000,000!

[ramana]

Note its not on Indian media but NPR!!!!

[UlanBatori]

Prize-winning reply would be "Bomma Hu?"

[Tuvaluan]

Tuvaluan-ji, any action we take reg. conversions should be dictated by our requirements. IMHO, today's GoI is doing that, by squeezing the funding and implementing the existing law as-is. Soon, they may release the census data and realize that more needs to be done, and they may update/bring in new laws to tackle this menace.

arshyam-ji, Not reacting to what Obama said (actually, I have not bothered to listen to his speech or Mr.Modi's) but this whole "religious freedom" nonsense from the US is to allow americans or their proxies to come to India and screw with the unity of the local population by insulting local cultures and mores.

[member_22733]

How Did Obama Play In India? We Ask 4 Villagers To Weigh In

What are your thoughts about President Obama?

Simpson: He is better than Mr. Bush, I think! I also salute him that he takes a stern stance on terrorism. I am confused why he is black when America is white .

Manju: I don't know who he is ... but I am happy that I know now after you told me.

Elizabeth: I have read about him in a newspaper. I think he is bringing America up and helping the black community in the country.

Alagarsamy: I'm not so much interested in the political affairs of America. I saw pictures of Obama during the Republic Day parade.

Do note the name of the reporter and also the names of the interviewees. Note the EJ style comments from the west as well (Dravidian, Aryan bullsheet etc). TN is in a real risky spot.

[sanjaykumar]

On a white people basis the farther west you go, the more hate for a brown person there is. Canada is cold. Cold is not the reason. Government indifference is.



I don't think you realise the extent to which Canada has restructured itself over the last forty years. Political power at the federal level is still largely a white prerogative as is evident in the MPs and judgeships etc. But at the provincial and municipal levels of government, it is more representative. Again it was only 60 years ago Jewish and non-European immigrants were non-admissable. Jews could not get hospital appointments. Currently, Yellow and Brown medical staff are completely unremarkable. The streets are polite and safe for them.

I see whites want to fu(k sharp featured Ethiopians in Toronto, 30 years ago they were incidents of violence against non whites. So society evolves.

My own experience as well as that of the younger ones I interact with is that inter-ethnic relationships are not exceptional. I don't know if it is due to our particular skin tone and physiognomies or whether darker people will be rejected. I do know that while my ***** has been sought as a date by a local gal and is very acceptable to the girl's Italian mother, yet the mother is aghast at the idea of a Black being in the house. However they will get over such things just as I did.

[MurthyB]

How Did Obama Play In India? We Ask 4 Villagers To Weigh In

Do note the name of the reporter and also the names of the interviewees. Note the EJ style comments from the west as well (Dravidian, Aryan bullsheet etc). TN is in a real risky spot.

True, but ol' Simpson there still has yearnings for the old way of life:

Simpson: I would show him the famous Sriviliputur Aandal temple and give him the famous palcova sweets [a cake made with condensed milk] and Tirunelveli Halwa! [a flour/sugar/nut butter combo]

[schinnas]

Do note the name of the reporter and also the names of the interviewees. Note the EJ style comments from the west as well (Dravidian, Aryan bullsheet etc). TN is in a real risky spot.

The EJ style comments are by a Tamil NRI it seems who is fed on Dravidian theory by DMK type parties. That said, the reporter seems to have played some mischief by going after people of specific community to interview.

[Vayutuvan]

Note its not on Indian media but NPR!!!!

... and the names of the people interviewed. Conjecturally, 50% or of one religion and the other 50% from another with the assumption that names do represent their respective religions. No Muslim name, no Sikh name. Even if the interviews were to have been conducted in the state of Kerala, there is a pretty hefty Muslim population.

NPR is supposed to be liberal yet they do not bring all points of view to the fore.

PS: Looks like LokeshC has already noticed that. Otherwise I would have thought that I am a little too thin skinned.

[pankajs]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 047979.cms
India, US disagree over food security

GENEVA: Disagreements flared up between the US and India here today at the first informal meeting to find a permanent solution on public stockholding for food security in developing countries.

The G-33 countries led by India and including China want public stockholding for food security purposes to come under the "Green Box" -- domestic support for agriculture that causes minimal or no trade distortion.

[Cosmo_R]

@Shreeman

We will move on after this: No brown person after Alexander Pushkin has prospered in Russia. Many brown folk have prospered in the US including one BHO not to mention a slew of Indian Americans. Rahul Richard Verma may be Christian but he is brown no? Name one brown Russian to hold any important position ---ever. Look up the number of Indian Americans starting to permeate Capitol Hill as staffers, lobbyists, think tankers what have you.

The entire US west coast is nowhere near as racist as Moscow and I'm talking about the people from Kazakhstan etc. who are routinely tagged as terrorists.

The US has its faults and they are many. But FWIW, I would not trade being here for the Russian paradise. For us brownies, there is no freaking comparison between the US and Russia or Czechoslovakia, or Poland or Hungary.

[ramana]

Looks like those comments on 'religious freedom' were inserted to please the new Ambassador who wanted to please his staff that insisted on their crusade from earlier days of Modi bashing under Billary....

http://www.newsinsight.net/Engagingthep ... age=page-1

Editor’s Note: Observers are surprised by President Barack Obama’s foray into a sensitive subject like religion in his address to youth on the last day of his India tour. It is traced to the United States’ new ambassador to India, Richard Verma, who prompted its inclusion in the presidential speech likely at the instigation of US embassy staffers who were part of the earlier campaign against Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The government has taken this protocol deviation in stride.

No matter. It lead to the ironic situation where Obama hecotrs India about religious freedom and goes to visit Saudi Arabia where the media blurs out Michele Obama's face in TVC broadcast.

Maybe those staffers like to go to Riyadh?

They have done enough damage under the previous Ambassador by issuing those T visas and spiriting away people charged with crimes.

Not to mention politically incorrect things like well fed dogs...

[gandharva]

Looks like those comments on 'religious freedom' were inserted to please the new Ambassador who wanted to please his staff that insisted on their crusade from earlier days of Modi bashing under Billary....

Editor’s Note: Observers are surprised by President Barack Obama’s foray into a sensitive subject like religion in his address to youth on the last day of his India tour. It is traced to the United States’ new ambassador to India, Richard Verma, who prompted its inclusion in the presidential speech likely at the instigation of US embassy staffers who were part of the earlier campaign against Prime Minister Narendra Modi. The government has taken this protocol deviation in stride.

http://www.newsinsight.net/Engagingthep ... age=page-1

[ramana]

Man ki Baat interview with NaMo and Obama from TOI which is sourced from pib.

LINK

and

Source: http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=114987

[UlanBatori]

I am amazed that this was allowed to happen. Question is, why would BO do it.
The news item seems MUCH more like something "leaked" by Paco handlers to stab the new Amby in the back - remember he's brown. What better way to start off with the NaMO guvrmand than to be described as being a complete friggin' jackass from day 1? He has just made himself persona non grata at BJP HQ, and NaMO's office.

The Amby needs to fire the Paco gang left and right unless he IS such a jackass.

[member_28803]

abhi abhi kuch sutro se khabar mili hain ki BO carries with him a small statue of Lord Hanumanji.

If this is true doesn't it go against Saudi kanoon to be carrying kafir idols?

[member_22733]

The surprising thing about Dick Verma is, the man is not an appointee but an official. Quite a smart diplomatic move, Amir-khan akademy of faggy battam must be proud of such wonderful graduates. Just like taking a shotgun and shooting your foot off before starting on a long marathon.

[Shanmukh]

@Shreeman

We will move on after this: No brown person after Alexander Pushkin has prospered in Russia. Many brown folk have prospered in the US including one BHO not to mention a slew of Indian Americans. Rahul Richard Verma may be Christian but he is brown no? Name one brown Russian to hold any important position ---ever. Look up the number of Indian Americans starting to permeate Capitol Hill as staffers, lobbyists, think tankers what have you.

Who is brown according to you? Do the Tatars, Kazakhs & Kalmyks count? What about Georgians? Do a quick check on how many Causasian, Tatar, Kalmyk & Jewish deputies the first & second Duma had way back in the early 1900s, will you? Do the names Rashid Nurgaliev, Elvira Nabiullina, Roald Sagdeev, and Oka Gorodovikov mean anything to you? Do you know who the current deputy mayor of Moscow is? There were even plenty of Tatar Bolsheviks - one classic example is Mirsaid Sultan Galiyev (a complex character).

The entire US west coast is nowhere near as racist as Moscow and I'm talking about the people from Kazakhstan etc. who are routinely tagged as terrorists.

Can you cite your source for the `routine' tagging of people from Kazakhstan as `terrorists'?

The US has its faults and they are many. But FWIW, I would not trade being here for the Russian paradise. For us brownies, there is no freaking comparison between the US and Russia or Czechoslovakia, or Poland or Hungary.

You are free to choose to be anywhere and also indulge your Russophobic palate, but please speak for yourself and not for `us'.