Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Mar. 29, 2011

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 May 2011 06:37

Nandu wrote:jr^2, a little below that he blandly adds that India is a Hindu country. So, it is all secular TSP vs. Hindu India.

Actually the "secular" West has been guilty of foisting this on a bunch of naive Indians who are equally guilty of not being able to figure out what they want to be.

Attitudes to India are governed by a "Have you stopped beating your wife algorithm. For those who don't know - if you say "Yes" to that question it proves that you used to be a wife beater. If you say "no" - it means you still beat your wife. Yau are guilty either way.

India is faced with the question "Are you a Hindu country?" Anyone who says "Yes" is told "Ah then you believe in caste and discriminate against other humans, you burn your brides and hate Muslims". If you say "No we are secular" then you are not allowed to show any sign of being Hindu - because being Hindu is like beating your wife. You were Hindus, but now you are secular. In fact Pakistanis have successfully managed to insert this meme on a west that was ready to accept such a meme. Indians have to either deny being Hindu and reject being Hindu to be considered secular. On the other hand "secular" in the west is merely a separation of church from state affairs. You can be Christian and secular. Similarly Muslims can be "secular" as long a they do not openly use sharia like KSA. To be Hindu is like following sharia in KSA. Alien and exclusivist religious practices.

This is something that Indians are not going to get past easily. In the first place indians should IMO stop objecting to India being called Hindu country. India does not really have to prove its secular credentials to anyone - but it is wrong to try and live down a Hindu ethos or history.

In other words If someone says "India is Hindu" - i would say "yes"

If someone says "Pakistan is secular" - I would say ROTFL

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 May 2011 06:49

Ms. Nirupama Rao is in Paris and Gilani cuts short his trip

Did Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani cut short his planned four-day trip to Paris because his hosts suggested that the presence in the French capital of India's Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao might create an embarrassing situation for them and him?

During his 36-hour stay (reduced by half without any explanations), Mr. Gilani tried hard to convince the media and the French establishment that the entire world, not just Pakistan, was to blame for the intelligence failure over Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad. That he did not succeed would be an understatement. His remarks were deemed facetious and off-hand by certain editorialists, who scathingly commented on the Prime Minister's inability to confront facts squarely.

The French establishment too has been jittery about Mr. Gilani's trip, keeping it as quiet as possible. Officially, no meeting was scheduled with French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet. But the latter did make an unscheduled call on Mr. Gilani at his hotel on Wednesday. France is keen to sell military hardware to Pakistan, but now is a very bad time indeed. In contrast to the €450-million military hardware deal being negotiated with Pakistan, India is a much bigger and more lucrative market for France.

The French will not want to do anything to upset or anger India — especially now with the French Rafale combat aircraft making it to India's final short list of the multi-billion dollar combat fighter deal two — hoping to notch up its very first sale abroad. All told, the French are hoping to sell civil nuclear technology and military hardware totalling over €20 billion. Pakistan is hardly in the same league.

“One of Pakistan's concerns is over the role India will play in Afghanistan, and diplomatic efforts are being directed at convincing the NATO coalition that New Delhi's presence in Islamabad's backyard is a stumbling block to peace. Islamabad has probably struck a deal with Washington by handing over Osama, saying: you have reached your objectives, now withdraw and let us handle Afghanistan. Will the western withdrawal from Afghanistan affect the Pakistani state's attitude to terrorism and proxy outfits? That is difficult to say,” writer, journalist and commentator, Frederic Pons, said in a talk show.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 May 2011 06:55

arun wrote:
shiv wrote:{Snipped}.............. PAK PERFIDY WILL HAVE NO ENDURING IMPACT ON ITS TIES WITH US ............ {Snipped}

11.History is going to repeat itself now after the death of OBL at Abbotabad. One or two senior officers of the Army and the ISI will be identified by the US as responsible for the collusion. The US will ask for their heads. Pakistan will happily offer their heads.

12. The State-to-State relations will be back to their sickening normalcy. The pamperiong of Pakistan will resume. The exercise to feed and fatten the Pakistani Army and intelligence will resume.
The groundwork is being laid by the US for the rehabilitation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Michele Flournoy, the top policy aide to US Defense Secretary Robert Gates chimes in:

Pentagon: No Firm Evidence of Pakistani Complicity

Yet more confirmation that B. Raman is indeed correct in pointing out that the US needs very little to convince itself that support for global Islamic Terrorism notwithstanding, there is an overwhelming need to reward the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The immediate past, besides Michele Flournoys comment yesterday, clearly points in that direction. .

The McClathy wire service is reporting that even as the US was planning the Abbotabad raid to bag Osama Bin Laden, the Obama Administration provided certification to the US Congress that Pakistan had shown a "sustained commitment" to ending its support for Islamic militants thereby opening the flood gates for yet more hand outs .

Grid your loins for the Obama Administration’s version of the Nixon Administrations “Let’s not squeeze Yahya” policy:

U.S. Pakistan policy sets low bar for aid requirements

By JONATHAN S. LANDAY
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON-In March, the Obama administration certified to Congress that Pakistan had shown a "sustained commitment" to ending its support for Islamic militants. Two days later, the top U.S. military officer accused Pakistan's premier spy agency of supporting Afghanistan's deadliest insurgent group.

At the same time, U.S. officials were in the final stages of planning the raid that killed Osama bin Laden on Monday, didn't know if Pakistani officials were helping to hide the al-Qaida leader in a military town near their capital.

Despite the contradictions, the certification was granted, removing a key hurdle for Congress to approve $1.5 billion in new U.S. military aid to Islamabad and showing yet again the lengths to which the Obama administration has bent over backward to keep its policy toward Pakistan on track. ………………………

Kansas City Star

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 May 2011 07:49

For those who are familiar with the movie "Interview with a Vampire"

For some reason Pakistan reminds me of Claudia especially in the scene where Lestat finds out that Claudia is keeping deformed dead bodies of grown up women in her bed bacause she so badly wants to be them. Lestat is horrified with her behaviour and Claudia is indignent and angry with Lestat for creating her.

Escaping to New Orleans proper, Louis feeds off a plague-ridden young girl one night, no more than four or five years old, whom he finds next to the corpse of her mother. Louis begins to think of leaving Lestat and going his own way. Fearing that, Lestat then turns the girl into a vampire "daughter" for them, to give Louis a reason to stay. She is then given the name "Claudia".

Initially, Louis is horrified that Lestat has turned a child into a vampire, but instantly cares for Claudia tenderly and dotingly. Claudia takes to killing people easily, but over time begins to hate Lestat as she realizes she can never grow up; although her mind matures into that of an intelligent, assertive woman, her body remains that of a five-year-old girl

As the years pass, Claudia becomes increasingly dissatisfied with being constantly “dressed as a doll” by her two fathers, and her frustration leads her to kill a mother and daughter and leave them to rot in the kitchens of the townhouse. When her deed is discovered by Lestat, she flies into a rage and informs the two that she has been damned to a body never able to grow old, that she wants to be a grown woman and will never have that chance, and that she hates them both more than she ever thought possible.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 06 May 2011 07:55

A while ago Shivji had mentioned in this forum about challenging the Arabs to either accept Islam is the problem or else accept that Pakistan is the problem.
Post May 1st I think this strategy is working well. I talked to couple of Arabs and both agreed that TSP has brought a very bad name to the average muslims and Islam by hiding OBL and thru its terrorist activities. OBL was past his sell by date in Arab land. By and large we have not seen violent protests on OBL's 72sation in Arab land. But you do see protests for perestroika in the middle east recently.
It is time to show the Arabs the true face of TSP (to those who don't know it yet)

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 May 2011 08:13

It's Friday!!

Six killed in Quetta blast

At least six people have been killed and several others injured in a powerful blast and firing at Barori road, Geo News reported.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 May 2011 08:19

Anantha wrote:A while ago Shivji had mentioned in this forum about challenging the Arabs to either accept Islam is the problem or else accept that Pakistan is the problem.
Post May 1st I think this strategy is working well. I talked to couple of Arabs and both agreed that TSP has brought a very bad name to the average muslims and Islam by hiding OBL and thru its terrorist activities. OBL was past his sell by date in Arab land. By and large we have not seen violent protests on OBL's 72sation in Arab land. But you do see protests for perestroika in the middle east recently.
It is time to show the Arabs the true face of TSP (to those who don't know it yet)

True - but I was saying in in the context of an Indian Muslims support for Pakistan as well as Arabs, Indonesians etc. The other thing that i have taken pains to point out is the nonsense that was spouted post-9-11 and still comes from Paki sources (swallowed in toto and occasionally posted on here) is that "islam is the fastest expanding religion"

This is complete nonsense of course - with the current era being an unprecedented era in history when Islam has never before had such a losuy reputation. For any Islamophobia in the past, the status of the prophet remained sacrosanct and most people who criticised Muslims and Islam would not say anything about the Prophet. That has changed now and accusations abound and are made at the drop of a hat. More people in te world are willing to eb critical of Islam and Muslims than ever before.

Pakistan has single handedly managed to sully the reputation of islam to its lowest ebb in centuries. If Pakistan is right, then Islam is the problem. How would we kafirs know if this is right or not unless other people who call themselves Muslim decide whether Pakistanis are correct or whether Islam is correct? If Pakistan represents Islam then Islam is a religion of murderous liars who take joy in the killing of innocents. Witness their actions wrt Mumbai 26/11 if any more proof was needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QehgTIOmkmQ

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 May 2011 08:22

shiv wrote:India is faced with the question "Are you a Hindu country?"

And that, my Banglorean friend, for many Hindus in India is an embarassing question, fed on decades of NCERT-approved books on Indian history and social studies. For many Indians (in India and outside) this tantamounts to be a collective accusation on their tolerance of others. For them, you can not be a Hindu and a secularist at the same time. For once, try answering that question with a confident "Yes, I am!". Nothing more. No clarification or qualification. Nine times out ten, the response I have received in the US from the questioner is "That's cool."

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 May 2011 08:37

Screen shot of News Week's website.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 May 2011 08:40

Pakistan’s rogue army runs a shattered state
By Aatish Taseer (Remember him?)

FT opinion. Posting in full. Otherwise one needs an account to read it online.

The veil has been lifted. The truth revealed is so awful that one is tempted to look away, but we must not. For the first time since the war on terror began, we now have the clearest view of our enemy’s other face. And it is not that of a bearded jihadi but of a serving officer in the Pakistani army.

Let us be clear about what happened last week: Osama bin Laden was not just found living in Abbottabad, there out of some inverse logic of his own. He was found in this garrison town because he was the guest of the army. And now the charges against this army and its agencies are manifold.

They range from duplicity in Afghanistan, both aiding the Americans and their adversaries, to a rich trade in nuclear technology with the world’s worst countries, to – as senior members of the Indian establishment have claimed – helping to plan and execute the 2008 attacks in Mumbai. Pakistan’s neighbours – India and Afghanistan – are hoarse in the throat from repeating that it is the Pakistani army that is the source of jihad in south Asia.

Yet for all these charges against it, this army has thrived in the ever-smaller gap between perception and reality. This is why bin Laden’s death in Abbottabad is significant: it represents the moment when perception and reality become one. And what a frightening reality it is: a vast and nuclear-armed military exposed for not just being the enemy of peace in south Asia but probably the ultimate sponsor and protector of terrorism against the west.

The ramifications are grim. The response in India and Afghanistan has been open outrage, and a feeling of vindication leagued with some considerable anxiety at how Pakistan will respond to the looming US withdrawal of troops. In America too, which because of its close military ties to Pakistan needs to move cautiously, a diplomatic frost of a sort is setting in. Yet in Pakistan, the army is menacingly silent, and the civilian government (which I sense was in the dark about bin Laden) is squirming.

The danger is of an army shamed and distrusted abroad while increasingly more destructive at home. Already it has done more harm to its people than to any outside force. The country was founded as an impractical utopia for India’s Muslims in 1947. When this proved to be essentially nihilistic, making it a place that defined itself by not being India, the expectations on which Pakistan was founded fell away, and the army moved in. It led the country into a series of ruinous wars with India, undermined civilian government and entrenched itself in economic life – becoming bread-maker and property dealer, and consuming a fourth of the national budget each year.

Even as the country steadily collapsed, Pakistan’s army flourished. It became like a kind of Praetorian Guard for whose parasitical growth the Islamic republic’s aspirations were ransomed. Then in the 1980s, to keep alive an enmity for India, a hateful Islamic ideology was spread among the people of Pakistan.

Pakistan’s army has left the country today more adrift than any other in the Muslim world. Terrorism is just one part of the problem; there is on the ground an unimaginable level of fear and anarchy. The place is full of gangs, kidnappings, parricides, rapes and murders. It is as if the whole fabric of society has come apart.

There has also been, since Benazir Bhutto’s assassination, a campaign to silence dissent in Pakistan. Earlier this year, my father, the governor of Punjab, was killed by his own guard. The act was put down to the actions of a single man. But later that week there were vast demonstrations of support for my father’s killer – rallies of 40,000 and more – and leading them was Lashkar-e-Taiba, a group created and nurtured by the Pakistani army, which is loath to put it out of business because of its special hatred of India. Its leader, Hafez Saeed, was also the man conducting prayers for bin Laden this week.

There is such a climate of fear and violence in Pakistan at the moment that only a fraction of what happens gets reported. Moments before I sat down to write this article, a Pakistani friend called. Over the course of our conversation, she asked me if I had considered why a mutual acquaintance, someone normally brave and outspoken, had been silent of late. I said I did not know; perhaps they were frightened. In fact, a relative had been kidnapped, and the kidnappers warned that without their future silence, the boy was as good as dead.

This then is the background of bin Laden’s death: a shattered country, traumatised and steeped in blood, with a rogue army falling piecemeal into the hands of jihad. After my father’s assassination, I had begun to feel that the birth of this new terrorist state would not be defined by anything so distinct as a takeover or a revolution but by an infiltration so deep that it would soon be impossible to know where Pakistan began and where terrorism ended. This latest news of the army’s guest in Abbottabad suggests the new state is already at hand.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 May 2011 08:54

The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 May 2011 09:11

This is what Fulbright-Nehru Scholars write about us.

Note the dry land/river in Pakistan.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 May 2011 09:24

^^ Perhaps a good reply would be that India is a Hindu country in the same sense as US is a Christian country or France is a Catholic country. That should put things in perspective for them.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 06 May 2011 09:24

ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.

Ramanna ji,
Is it only because of the population or the History and Civilization of the Land with the West?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 May 2011 09:25

Samudragupta wrote:
ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.
Ramanna ji,
Is it only because of the population or the History and Civilization of the Land with the West?

Everybidy behaves like a hindu and this is like for 100 years before.
By changing the constitution the people dont change

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 06 May 2011 09:27

Dipanker wrote:^^ Perhaps a good reply would be that India is a Hindu country in the same sense as US is a Christian country or France is a Catholic country. That should put things in perspective for them.

I don't think this is the correct correlation because at the end of the day, all the ideologies that u have reported is an imported one for the native societies...but nobody imported Hindu in this land...actually i don't see any comparable situtaion in any country!!!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 May 2011 09:30

Indian tough talkers subvert Manmohan’s agenda

: Pak

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... ak/786638/

Bashir even questioned whether the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks could be described as “an intelligence failure or
security failure on the part of India.”

In New Delhi, South Block chose not to react officially but maintained that Pakistan will now have to “walk the talk” on the anti-terror crackdown. South Block sources acknowledged that the US-style military operation was not an option

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 06 May 2011 09:33

ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.

That is true they are amused when I tell them that yes we have Christmas and new year vacations as well as vacations for eid and other hindu, sikh, buddhism, parsi festivals. It's true that most average American's although well read and educated are not well versed with other cultures.

Europeans and even Russians on the other hand are more in tune with ground realities. This being my personal opinion, your mileage may vary

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 06 May 2011 09:36

shiv wrote:Indians have to either deny being Hindu and reject being Hindu to be considered secular. On the other hand "secular" in the west is merely a separation of church from state affairs.

OT, but couldn't let this go uncontested.

There's no such straitjacket in secular India. I report to work office on tuesdays with kesari tilak; someone else adorns their forehead with naama everyday and another one wears a headscarf. Neither Indian society, nor Indian workplaces, armed forces and educational institutions prevent open display of religious symbols or even prayers, ceremonies. This differs from western secularism (eg France) where all the above is banned. I'd be surprised if anyone is prevented from practice of their religion in India on account of "being considered secular" ? I'll even take anecdotes as evidence if you have faced such a situation.

Indian secularism is same as west in the other respect ie. it aims to separate religion from state. Eg. a judge prays to his ishtadev and reports to work, even quotes his own scriptures in the judgement, but the religious beliefs of the litigants bear no affect on his judgement. Eg. Public works invariably start with invocation of Lord Vighneshwara, but use of that public utility is open to all.

That sir, is what sets our system apart.

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 06 May 2011 10:06

X posted from Bin Laden thread. Exposes Pakistan's duplicity.
PBS Frontline Video: Fighting for Bin Laden.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1908468892

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 May 2011 11:20

From the Edit in The Hindu, "India-Pakistan: Unique Opportunity"

. . . this is India's chance to persuade the people of Pakistan that it is not the mortal enemy that it has been made out to be by their security establishment. It implies a whole hearted engagement, {which means we should throw more goodies at Pakistan and receive more terrorism in return} not just with the government but also with the people of Pakistan on all issues that trouble bilateral relations. Such engagement will also pave the way towards justice for the victims of the Mumbai attacks.

What day dreaming !

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 06 May 2011 11:22

ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.

So be it.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 06 May 2011 11:45

Here is a link to a program where Nadeem Malik is speaking with Ex Air Chief Sadat.

http://pakistanherald.com/Program/Islam ... Malik-6776

Sadat comes across as a grounded Ex fauji, and discusses possibility of Indian kamandu attack in a much more mature manner less the rehtoric. Futher he also agrees whether F solahs weren't able to engage the US helis because they might have been fixed. After much brovado and grand standing this is a good analisys from 2 mature guys.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 May 2011 11:50

Guys, read that article by Aatish Taseer. It is an extremely powerful one, and so well phrased that I wouldn't change a single word. It will have a massive impact on the minds of Westerners, especially the type of people who read FT - and even more on those who care to read deeper into his background. See this passage, for instance:

"Yet for all these charges against it, this army has thrived in the ever-smaller gap between perception and reality. This is why bin Laden’s death in Abbottabad is significant: it represents the moment when perception and reality become one. And what a frightening reality it is: a vast and nuclear-armed military exposed for not just being the enemy of peace in south Asia but probably the ultimate sponsor and protector of terrorism against the west. "

A classic. Beautifully, and simply encapsulates the problem.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 May 2011 11:58

JE Menon wrote: And what a frightening reality it is: a vast and nuclear-armed military exposed for not just being the enemy of peace in south Asia but probably the ultimate sponsor and protector of terrorism against the west. "

This quote is a somewhat unreal since OBL was a western supported person for a long time. Pakistan was just doing service by keeping him for the services he had done. Uncle is a dejected party after 911 but they have common memories of the past.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 May 2011 12:15

Kayani must be having sleepless nights. Domestic pressure -> trying to divert this by attack on LoC.
Taleban pressure -> kayani will ask mullah omar to bail him out and tell his forces to stand down. I doubt omar will do anything.
International embarrasment -> Kayani is defeating this by blackmailing US. Relelase of those photo's was planned.

See ex ISI guy Durrani's comments. He said they knew at some level, the army chief was in his office and knew that US was in position. So to put an end to the conflicting events, pak is blackmailing the US by releasing these pictures of dead paki's with no weapons.
So it looks like US killed these guys in cold blood. Makes you question who these guys were and a host of other things.

There are 2 lines pakistan has. For domestic consumption: we didn't know about the operation, as selling out OBL would cause talebans to launch war.
For international consumption: Of course we knew about the operation, we were a part of it!

All this means is more international embarrasment and domesitically kayani is screwed.

Let see if US will back off. But anyway, kiling of OBL is a part of handing over power in the ME to the muslim brotherhood.

So what is kayani's game plan to regain some pride?
Start a war with India to divert domestic attention - hence why you had an RPG attack on the LoC. MMS pllayed his card right - reiterated peace.
Kayani will use more LoC strikes or terror. If I was in the home ministry I would be on alert.

Apparently western intel believes pak was onboard, but not clear on what level. I think this is part of US guaranteeing Pak interest in afghanistan and kiling OBL means Obama's afghan mission accomplished. Pak wil get taleban to the table to negotiate.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 06 May 2011 12:18

^^^
I dont understand the "Killed in cold blood" concept at all. 3 Pakis in a house filled with guns. Probably wired with explosives and booby traps. Probably wearing vests too. I would shoot all military aged men. That is what the SEALs did.

It is remarkable that the remaining 975 wimmens and childrens in the compound had no scratches on them. Except for one motorma who got one on her leg and another who got dispatched. All in all a pretty precise operation I would say.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 May 2011 12:51

>>This quote is a somewhat unreal since OBL was a western supported person for a long time. Pakistan was just doing service by keeping him for the services he had done. Uncle is a dejected party after 911 but they have common memories of the past.

There is little unreal about the quote. Note he says "not just being the enemy of peace in south Asia but probably the ultimate sponsor and protector of terrorism against the west.

OBL was Western and Saudi-supported, but indirectly (Omar Shaikh is a much better example of directly supported - he was an MI6 asset in Bosnia, for instance). OBL was one of a multitude of Arab mujahids who were present in Afghanistan towards the fag end of the anti-Soviet Jihad. Direct access to most of these were controlled by the ISI, which while acting on behalf and as a middleman, had its own particular agenda post-war which it was shaping through the distribution of the aid from the Americans, Saudis (and others).

Many American observers have acknowledged subsequently that this was a mistake, in hindsight. That is why post 9/11, the Americans made no bones about developing their own sources, own contact channels, own networks, and compartmentalised it (Raymond Davis was an important spoke in this wheel). What was not anticipated fully, and is only now dawning in toto, is the fact that Pakistan has its own agenda for the region, and indeed, the world. It is the late acceptance of that reality that has been the ground in which Pakistani inspired terrorism flourished, although that ground has been shrinking.

And still, even now, that reality is not sinking in fully, because of the bureacratic and ideological tension between classical balance of power politics and the global realities where diffusion of both power and information has rendered such old-world constructs far less predictable and fragile - because interests, and their interplay between nations, have become far more complex and fleeting - where countries have time to consider them at all, before responding to events. This is why we keep hearing about the lack of "evidence" that Pakistan knew about OBL's whereabouts in Islamabad. Undoubtedly, the US knows much more than it has released - and as Pakistan ties itself into knots of lies, competing power centres in the US administration will keep leaking whatever suits their own preferred path forward. Net net: none of this is going to be good for the Pakistani military establishment, going forward.

Now about the "just" part... Taseer is accurately stating that if it was just terrorism in "South Asia" (an usage, no doubt, that fits his personal background than the reality of terrorism), that would have been tolerable - more so before 9/11, and certainly less so now. And that, in turn, is because Western publics are now much better informed. That is why I said the article is a seminal one. It encapsulates the problem in a manner that these publics can swallow without much difficulty. Nor will it be that hard to digest.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 May 2011 12:55

rajithn wrote:
ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.
So be it.

and all these countries are christian fundamentalists with long histories of religious bigotry, intolerance and persecution of minorities, with only france being constitutionally secular as a cover up over centuries of bitter sectarian violence and anti-minority persecution

same to same onlee

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 May 2011 14:27

ManishH wrote:
shiv wrote:Indians have to either deny being Hindu and reject being Hindu to be considered secular. On the other hand "secular" in the west is merely a separation of church from state affairs.
OT, but couldn't let this go uncontested.

There's no such straitjacket in secular India. I report to work office on tuesdays with kesari tilak; someone else adorns their forehead with naama everyday and another one wears a headscarf. Neither Indian society, nor Indian workplaces, armed forces and educational institutions prevent open display of religious symbols or even prayers, ceremonies. This differs from western secularism (eg France) where all the above is banned. I'd be surprised if anyone is prevented from practice of their religion in India on account of "being considered secular" ? I'll even take anecdotes as evidence if you have faced such a situation.

Indian secularism is same as west in the other respect ie. it aims to separate religion from state. Eg. a judge prays to his ishtadev and reports to work, even quotes his own scriptures in the judgement, but the religious beliefs of the litigants bear no affect on his judgement. Eg. Public works invariably start with invocation of Lord Vighneshwara, but use of that public utility is open to all.

That sir, is what sets our system apart.

Not disputing you take on things - but the pressures that Indians face come in a situation where they are in a minority - usually abroad which Pakis have their great opportunity to show their secularism versus Hindu bigotry.

My thoughts are encapsulated nicely by anpumisra's post

anupmisra wrote:
shiv wrote:India is faced with the question "Are you a Hindu country?"
And that, my Banglorean friend, for many Hindus in India is an embarassing question, fed on decades of NCERT-approved books on Indian history and social studies. For many Indians (in India and outside) this tantamounts to be a collective accusation on their tolerance of others. For them, you can not be a Hindu and a secularist at the same time.

in fact the things that you mention in your post are specifically mentioned by one Shri Omar Khalidi in a book entitled "Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India" - which I reviewed for BR

On page 103 Khalidi says: "More than one observer has noticed the appearance of Hindu temples and Hindu religious images in police stations to the exclusion of those of the minority faiths". It is not clear whether the author objects to Hindu icons in police stations, or whether he is objecting to the lack of non-Hindu religious icons. Khalidi himself says why there are few Muslims in many police forces, and under the circumstances, a police station manned largely by Hindus cannot be expected to set up icons for those who are not present. Khalidi makes no attempt to ask if police personnel of religious minorities are prevented from performing minor acts of religious significance in the few police stations that do have them, such as the wearing of a cross or observance of an afternoon prayer or religious fast.

OT here but I once got into a row on a mailing list when one guy (a Macaulay infected Indian who at that time was living abroad) mentioned the very things that you have written in your post as lack of secularism in India. For this guy the decorations and general good cheer and mistletoe in offices at Christmas was secular enough but appearing Hindu was not. Same as Khalidi.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 06 May 2011 14:47

shiv wrote:OT here but I once got into a row on a mailing list when one guy (a Macaulay infected Indian who at that time was living abroad) mentioned the very things that you have written in your post as lack of secularism in India. For this guy the decorations and general good cheer and mistletoe in offices at Christmas was secular enough but appearing Hindu was not. Same as Khalidi.

Well said Shivji.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 06 May 2011 15:22

Now, you gotta add honey to the mix.

Time to distinguish between friends and foes
By: Ashraf Mumtaz

Pakistan is forgetting Quranic saying that Christians and Jews are not friends of Muslims. Had it followed Allah’s directive, it would not have had to face the situations it is facing at the hands of US.

While the military leadership and the Foreign Office have taken right positions on the OBL issue, it’s about time the government started distancing itself from the so-called friend –US. It should get closer to time-tested China with whom Pakistan’s friendship is ‘deeper than sea, higher than Himalayas and sweeter than honey’.

link

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 May 2011 15:22

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 06 May 2011 15:39

US Drone strike in Datta Khel, North Waziristan, 13 people killed, 4 injured.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 06 May 2011 15:50

David Letterman on pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7BLsuYI ... re=related

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 May 2011 15:51

Samudragupta wrote:
ramana wrote:The French and Italians as far as I know refer to India as Hindu country. Many Americans also refer to India as Hindu. The perception is due to the majority population.
Ramanna ji,
Is it only because of the population or the History and Civilization of the Land with the West?

Althogh this is turning out to be out of topic, I think its mostly to do with the latter.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 May 2011 15:54

Kanishka wrote:
Anindya wrote:From http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/lawye ... ama-103525
we see yet more evidence that every institution of any significance in Pakistan has been deeply Islamized and supports terrorism in all forms. Here, folks from the Peshawar high court express their support for Osama.
How can anyone pray for a mass murderer??

He is not a mass murderer in the land of the pure

only in the rest of the world

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 06 May 2011 15:58

jrjrao wrote:link

Here's the clincher that reeks of "it was never us, it was always you" denial mode:

Who know that Osama Bin Laden was brought to Abbottabad through its agents to make his presence a pretext to pin the blame on Pakistan and take punitive action against it. History shows that the US – and similar other countries – can go to any extent to create a situation that serves their interests.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 May 2011 16:01

Stop this futile Pak bashing

From the link JNU to host first alumni meet

The following day, two seminars will be held. The first on “Politics in India: Today and Tomorrow” will be addressed by Prakash Karat of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), Digvijay Singh of Janata Dal (United) and D. P. Tripathi of the Nationalist Congress Party.

A panel discussion on “Crisis Economy” will be held on the penultimate day. Those participating in the dialogue will be former JNU Vice-Chancellor G. K. Chadha, CPI (M) leader Sitaram Yechury and Economic Times editor T. K. Arun. The last day will be marked by a cultural evening, contributory dinner and felicitation of the JNU alumni who have been honoured with Padma Awards at the Parthasarthy Open Air Theatre on the campus

Looking at the above 2 articles there seems to be huge link between Paki Love fests, top Congress leadership, CPI(M) and JNU alumuni, why cant we just some of these people go to Pakistan- rather than allowing Paki's to come to India for say 2 year stays together. 7 day stay they will come back alive, 2 year stay they will be treated as Kafirs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 May 2011 17:21

We have got the most gullible people on the planet to have our GoI structured this way.