Intelligence & National Security Discussion

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 05 Aug 2010 21:05

Austin wrote:
Surya wrote:how many requests for terrorism or anything else made by India has been entertained??? Please enlighten this abdul
Barring Pakistan who does not seem to care about any request , the ROW has been co-operating at least if we tend to believe the official statement.

It seems we SDRE’s are genetically wired for neurobehavioral developmental disorder (ADHD). Canadasthan (home of RIM) slept for 25 years on Kanishka. If you ask me B.C. on west coast is base camp for khali-stanee

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Aug 2010 22:19

Does not matter little or more network , it just proves only few countries are making fuss

it does my friend - it proves that the others (who have a security need) have their own quiet arrangement.

Does not look like and RIM has denied that it has made special arrangement with any one.

It is fascinating that you would take the statement of RIM at face value over the requirements of security needs.

Barring Pakistan who does not seem to care about any request , the ROW has been co-operating at least if we tend to believe the official statement.

Others have answered it - over the years be it Khalistan or anything else - it has been the usual stonewalling. imagine if we need records withn 24 hours
it will never happen

You can probably count on your finger tips the countries that are making noise compared to those where RIM is operating

If timbuktu does notcare does it mean we should not?/ Are timbuktu's needs the same as ours??

All mechanism should exist within the judicial law of the country , just few months back they were happily tapping into mobile phone , thankfully it got exposed or else they would have continued their dirty tricks in the name of national security.

That is a seperate argument and can be an issue whether we force RIM to deal withus or not. Why you insist on tying this to RIM is beyond me.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Aug 2010 22:34

pandyan

TFTA Countries that have BB but are not making fuss already have a mechanism to tap into the messages. The funny thing is how did government allow this service in the first place without resolving these details.

good point which is why I do not believe the bull crap RIM gives us. Same reason why US telecom execs do not want to be dragged in to say under oath that they are not sharing info.
There are quiet agreements inplace

RIM would gets its ass kicked out if the US cannot read it as needed.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Aug 2010 23:10

Baj

It seems we SDRE’s are genetically wired for neurobehavioral developmental disorder (ADHD).

nah just a couple of us here - its all explained by the argumentaive Indian

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 05 Aug 2010 23:47

Interesting story on the interplay between the Bombay underworld and India's intelligence agencies:

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/ ... Rajan.html

The Chhota Rajan empire is on a shaky ground. Already grappling with his health woes and a lot of his aides being arrested, killed or simply changing groups, Rajan is now faced with the prospect of losing his biggest protecting hand – the intelligence agencies – which have decided to sideline him.

And the blow has hit Rajan where it hurts the most, because some in the Intelligence Bureau are now wooing Rajan’s former-ally-turned nemesis Bharat Nepali because of his increasing power and usefulness.

If the IB indeed puts its full weight behind Nepali, the already waning Rajan reign may be wiped out in the next few years, and Nepali may well replace him. An officer with the security establishment said, “Rajan is certainly not happy with IB’s growing affinity towards Nepali. He is saying that he always stood by the agency whenever it needed his help, and now that his influence has taken a slight beating, he is being deserted.”

Rajan and his men, particularly Farid Tanashah and Vicky Malhotra, have for long been propped up by the Indian intelligence to neutralise Dawood Ibrahim’s network. When Dawood’s men made an attempt on Rajan’s life in Bangkok in 2002, the Indian intelligence agencies helped him escape. Tanashah was made to stay in Karachi for several months towards the end of 1990s to kill Dawood. After the 2003 Parliament attack, it was Tanashah who helped agencies nab a key suspect who was shot at after he was let-off by the court.

The development has taken place in the past eight to nine months when Nepali split from his former boss Rajan, sometime around December 2009. He took along with him two of the most influential and widely-networked Rajan aides, Santosh Shetty and Vijay Shetty.

A Crime Branch officer said, “The Shetty duo, operating from Singapore-Bangkok, have a wide network of narcotics trade in South Asia and are loaded with money. Riding on this money, Nepali has been able to influence Rajan’s network and wean away many of his men. It’s also a rich resource for procuring weapons and conducting shootouts.”

In the past few months, some of the key men who worked for Rajan have switched camps as Nepali is paying more money. “Key among them are UP don Rajesh Yadav and Kala Ghoda shootout accused Zafar Khan. The duo, sitting in UP, provided all the weapons and men for shootouts carried out on Rajan’s orders anywhere in the country. While Rajan still has some support in UP, the going has certainly become difficult now,” said the Crime Branch officer.

What also worked in Nepali’s favour was some sensational shootouts he carried out shortly after the split. In the first week of February, Nepali got Jamim Shah, a TV entrepreneur in Nepal and a close Dawood aide killed. It was rumoured that Nepali had been helped in this operation by the Indian intelligence agencies. He followed it up with the murder of lawyer Shahid Azmi the same month, in a deliberate attempt to establish himself as ‘patriotic don’ replacement.

He delivered a severe blow to Rajan with the June murder of Tanashah, the don’s most capable aide. “These shootouts not only raised Nepali’s stature in the underworld, it also made him look like a man who could handle big operations in India and abroad. This not only gravitated several Rajan men towards him, but also certain elements in the IB,” said the officer.

To make matters worse, Rajan has been keeping ill health and most of his men have split to form small gangs. “All these small elements like Ravi Pujari, Hemant Pujari and Bunty Pandey used to once work for Rajan. Now, he was left with few people like Malhotra, D K Rao and Tanashah. While the last name is dead, the first two will have to work hard to build fresh networks because of prolonged incarceration,” the officer said.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 06 Aug 2010 03:40

China to counter India's Military Advantages in Arunachal Pradesh

"For a long term, Indian troops have taken the form of “war of attrition” in the South Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) area to counteract the PLA army stationed there, solely relying on their geographic edge and advantages in transportation.

"However, with the rapid rise of China’s national strength as well as its transporting capacities of important combat readiness materials, could India still afford the “War of Attrition” with China? "

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2010 04:10

with the Canadian Govt and Hillary clinton wading into this - does anyone still doubt these countries did not have their backroom deals in place.

when we barely get access post crime let alone pre crime?/ Eh hillary

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 Aug 2010 04:11

pandyan wrote:The funny thing is how did government allow this service in the first place without resolving these details.

RIM might have upgraded their tech recently.

The Free BSD Institute have some black boxes sitting all over the network in massa. IIRC, they also jumped up and down when some tech stack change happened a few years back.

Austin wrote: Barring a few countries none of them have been making much fuss and RIM/BB has been working well and intel agency have approved the same.

Lets hope they resolve this issue within our judicial system without invading unnecessarily into individual privacy in the name of national security.

For *any* serious intel agency around the world, a judicial system is a quaint anachronistic thing to be circumvented.
One can only pray they treat it like a deaf granny (India and West Oirope) than a pride-parade tranny (US) or a tethered gimp (pakis).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2010 11:01

Surya wrote:it does my friend - it proves that the others (who have a security need) have their own quiet arrangement.

My friend If the arrangement was quite then we should have done it quietly as well what is the point of giving big media publicity through selective leaks and making it a fight between GOI vs RIM.

If you believe RIM there are no such arrangement specifically granted to any country and thats their official statement.

I can always speculate that x country got a better deal or RIM is lying

It is fascinating that you would take the statement of RIM at face value over the requirements of security needs.

Every damn country on this earth have security needs and have some or the other concerns about terrorism.

If RIM is lying then let the GOI take it to Indian Court and sue it , let every one know who is the culprit here.

Others have answered it - over the years be it Khalistan or anything else - it has been the usual stonewalling. imagine if we need records withn 24 hours it will never happen

I am sure Khalistan will find 101 way to communicate and BB is not their last becon of hope. We had great terrorist strike and loss of life when BB never exisited in India.

If we need data on real time basis then let some court of India validate these request and put it to RIM and then let RIM refuse it , we will come to know who is the real problem.

If court takes time then let fix the issue , I think right now after the fiasco of random tapping , any tapping has to authorised by secretary ( HM ) .

If timbuktu does notcare does it mean we should not?/ Are timbuktu's needs the same as ours??

Yes with the ray of hope that we are to the world and the last beacon of all thing that is right and just that we are , care to check in how many countries RIM operate and how many are making a fuss , wiki tells me 91 countries operate RIM .

http://www.blackberry.com/support/count ... lity.shtml

That is a seperate argument and can be an issue whether we force RIM to deal withus or not. Why you insist on tying this to RIM is beyond me.

This is not a seperate argument but part of it , not many months ago these agency were randomly tapping phone without any valid authorisation and who knows with what motive. It was only when parliament created an uproar that GOI decided to take some steps and put in a mechanism , just goes on to show how these agency can behave if checks are not in place and monitored.

The issue of RIM is the same they want to tap into real time data communications , as long as these are backed up by authorisation by court/HM secretary it is a very valid point and accepted.

But a misuse by agency would also mean they would snoop into corporate communication so far protected and could act as information provider to corporate rivals or could dance according to the wishes of political masters and the motive to me seems to that.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Aug 2010 12:27

Only 2 BlackBerry services cause of security worry

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Only- ... rry/656773

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 06 Aug 2010 12:41

Austin wrote:FACTBOX-BlackBerry security explained

As per that link even in US they need a valid court order to tap into BB

What kind of access does the U.S. government enjoy?

A. U.S. authorities can seek a court order to tap BlackBerry traffic, giving them access to messages sent over the network. Officials with Research in Motion declined to talk about how they provide such access. It is possible that the government provides such requests directly to RIM's customers.
That is the right procedure , random and indiscriminate tapping should be prevented be it BB or any thing , as long as RIM complies with Indian Court order to tap is a valid request and should be complied.

I think they just say that publically.

Behind the scenes, they will hand over anything the US govt wants and the kitchen sink with or without a court order.

Yahoo and Google likewise agreed to hand over anything the US govt asks for.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Aug 2010 13:17

VinodTK wrote:China to counter India's Military Advantages in Arunachal Pradesh

"For a long term, Indian troops have taken the form of “war of attrition” in the South Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) area to counteract the PLA army stationed there, solely relying on their geographic edge and advantages in transportation.

"However, with the rapid rise of China’s national strength as well as its transporting capacities of important combat readiness materials, could India still afford the “War of Attrition” with China? "

This is like building strawman and knocking out the same yourself. So, India has advantage in transportation? I guess, everyone on Indian side has missed it completely...may be, Chinese can show us this advantage. But to be fair to the author, he/she could mean the relative location of bases from the LAC. For us, it is the climb from the Valley floor to LAC which is difficult.....the troops can be easily transported to the valley floor. The usefulness of Tibet railway to Chinesed can be seen in this context.

As for the "War of attrition"....the very nature of mountain warfare ensures that it will be a slugfest. Unless, the parties can add the vertical envelope element - either air assault or para drop. Plus the preponderance in artillery. The 1962 performace of PLA cannot be repeated. Another factor - geography (actually, The Factor). One can have XYZ number of troops but the geography will not allow one to acheive very high densities...the real estate to deploy those troops is limited....something like the Battle of Thermopylae.

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Aug 2010 13:42

RIM BB Saga - Explained

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Aug 2010 14:00

How are India's multipe threat - less action is viewed by Outside world...

"India has made these threats time and again and India's starting to sound like the boy that cried wolf, a little bit, because RIM continues to maintain service there and has talked to the government many times and come to resolutions over the course of time," said Restivo.

Link

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2010 19:00

If RIM is lying then let the GOI take it to Indian Court and sue it , let every one know who is the culprit here.

this is as brilliant on par with your Arjun should have to face global tendering process.

But we expect nothing less from you.

This is the sort of idiotic "argument for the sake of arguing' which allows companies to take our MOD to court for what is an internal order.

Who the eff is RIM that the GOI should go to court for?/ Its not an Indian entity.

Maybe next time you purchase something for your home you should discuss with me and get my permission??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2010 19:32

And you are back with your personal attack as expected from you

RIM may not be an Indian entity but they offer their services in India and they can be challenged in Indian court of law

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2010 20:41

Stop whining -

RIM is not having a business law issue. In such cases you go to court.

It is an issue deemed by the GOI as National security. That gives the Govt the right to regulate it.

If RIM was an Indian company it will have many more rights.

when you grasp this fundamental difference come back and argue

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 06 Aug 2010 20:49

The GoI is going about this is in a roundabout way. RIM cant function in isolation, it needs a wireless network to offer its services. GoI/TRAI should simply mandate that any third party services that Indian wireless operators provide must be open to legal intercept or face penalties on the Indian operators.

Problem will be solved quite quickly, the Indian operators will force RIM to open up or drop it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2010 20:57

T he way RIM conducts business stronger encryption and confidentality is its key selling point and if RIM feels giving away that to GOI can compromise or give a bad reputation to its name then it does affect its business and the way it does its business in any country.

RIM is free to challenge GOI writ and so is GOI free to challenge the way RIM goes about its business in India , its their right.

But since you have nothing much to show after loosing all your argument you have resorted to personal attacks and that is any way expected from you.

I had my say on this topic and I have nothing much to argue with a person who resorts to personal attacks let the admin decide on this.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 06 Aug 2010 20:58

I would agree with Austin if it was an Indian company but for outside companies why should we be playing nice when our companies get treated shabbily in other countries. Also for a foreign company, case of Dow Chemicals and Bhopal comes to mind - it did not quite turn out beneficial for India and its citizens. This is exactly the kind of move that GOI should make to let the companies know that they have no choice but to cooperate with GOI.... If the similar moves were (and is being) carried out by PRC we would applaud their guts..... They have successfully 'blackmailed' many a western companies for PRC gain... Just my two naya paisa.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2010 21:07

But since you have nothing much to show after loosing all your argument you have resorted to personal attacks and that is any way expected from you.

Awww you are judge jury and executioner in this case but you do not want the GOI who is authorised to be the judge jury and executioner:)

Let the folks who visit this thread decide who wins this argument.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 06 Aug 2010 21:42

BlackBerry network can be hacked, say experts http://ibnlive.in.com/news/blackberry-n ... =network18

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Aug 2010 03:10

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE6750Q720100806

The source said the two options to resolve the row were servers in Saudi Arabia or a patch which would allow the government access to data in cases affecting national security.

hmmm interesting if true

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2010 09:56

Old article
MI in India

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 07 Aug 2010 10:34

Toll free number for citizens of Gujarat coastal areas to inform police

AHMEDABAD: State police department has launched a toll-free number 1093 on Friday for the coastal areas to pass on the sensitive information regarding marine security. The control room officials will then pass on the message to district police officials and recently raised marine commando force.

According to senior state police officials, the helpline is available for all the coastal districts such as Bhavnagar, Amreli, Junagadh, Porbandar, Jamnagar, Kutch, Surat, Valsad, Navsari and others.

"The step is to provide a centralised command and information system for the force as quick actions can be taken and other agencies such as navy, coast guards and paramilitary forces can be roped in. We are finalising the location of the final marine task force, currently functioning from Mandvi. The information center will be in contact with senior officials across the districts," said a senior police official.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Aug 2010 15:14

ramana wrote:Old article
MI in India

Could any of the knowlegable gurus ( in this field) indicate if most of the recommendations the author has given in the article have taken place in these 15 years?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Aug 2010 19:52

Saudi Arabia and the makers of the BlackBerry smartphone have reached a deal on accessing users' data that will avert a ban on the phone's messenger service, a Saudi official said Saturday.

The agreement would involve placing a BlackBerry server inside Saudi Arabia to allow the government to monitor messages and allay official fears the service could be used for criminal purposes, the official said

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/blackberry_crackdown

where are the "we make no such deals " and other rubbish from RIM management

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 08 Aug 2010 06:45

BlackBerry playing hard to get: India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BlackBerr ... 83710.aspx

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 08 Aug 2010 10:19

abhishek_sharma wrote:BlackBerry playing hard to get: India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BlackBerr ... 83710.aspx

Check out the comments.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 08 Aug 2010 16:10

BlackBerry offers to give ‘metadata’

http://www.thehindu.com/business/compan ... 559322.ece

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Aug 2010 08:27

BlackBerry Security Stance Sows Anxiety

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/09/technology/09rim.html

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Aug 2010 08:39

BlackBerry may face ultimatum at next meet

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BlackBerr ... 84076.aspx

nits · Post by **nits** » 09 Aug 2010 23:47

Why is India wasting its time chasing BlackBerry? - Click...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Aug 2010 03:39

Hunt on for 'double agent' for army, LeT

Security agencies are on a lookout for a person, working as a 'source' for army intelligence and allegedly sharing information with them at the instance of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayiba terror outfit.

Investigations show that in certain cases, the person identified as Shabir Renzoo, had also duped the terror outfit and the army intelligence together to make a quick buck for himself, official sources said.

According to a report shared by security agencies with the Union home ministry, the Jammu and Kashmir police interrogated one person Javid alias Billa who said he had been taken by Renzoo to Delhi on April 25, 2010 where they were joined by another person Wahid Molvi.

The trio had a meeting with "some Army intelligence official", the sources quoted the report as saying.

The three along with the Army intelligence official left for Mumbai where Javid was sent to a "forward location" ostensibly to receive some consignment. However, he did not receive it and reached Srinagar in first week of May, the sources said.

Investigations have further found that Renzoo told Javid, Wahid and another man Muneer -- all residents of Batmaloo -- "that some explosive material has to be taken to Delhi keeping the Army intelligence official in picture," the sources said, adding while doing so, all the four were also in touch with Lashker operatives Wahid Kashmiri, Furqan and Ahmed across the border in Pakistan.

The in-depth investigation of this intelligence operation revealed that Renzoo made Lashker operatives believe that he could transfer explosive material to Delhi and conduct blasts there whereas, on the other hand he had kept Army intelligence also in picture to intercept the same consignment.

Renzoo is alleged to be making fast money this way and get ordinary Kashmiri youths trapped, the report said and added that "since the operation has inter-state ramifications and some people in Delhi especially businessmen are involved, the matter needs to be investigated."

The security agencies also want to question the army intelligence official, who was executing the operations with Renzoo.

The case came to light when an intelligence input was shared by the army about possible movement of terrorists in April. Based on some International Mobile Equipment Identity numbers and International Mobile Subscriber Identity numbers, police arrested Umar Zargar, a resident of Srinagar.
Zargar was alleged to be acting as a courier on behalf of Umair, a militant of Tehreek-ul-Mujahideen. His trail led to Renzoo and his "connections" in army intelligence.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Aug 2010 09:01

BlackBerry: Centre to meet telecom operators

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/10/stories ... 152000.htm

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Aug 2010 09:02

Last call for BlackBerry?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Last-call ... 84451.aspx

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Aug 2010 10:07

Now they want to stop all 3G Services In India as they don't have mechanism to tap it... Wonder what was GOI doing till now...

http://business.rediff.com/report/2010/ ... ls-dot.htm

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 10 Aug 2010 14:47

The reason why Blackberry has got caught up in this rift is that BB requires dedicated Blackberry Enterprise Server for messaging unlike iPhone or other smart phones. Would be good if RIM comes up with solution else it will be free run for Microsoft Exchange in India.

On the side note though comments by RIM CEO that 'no one understands how internet works in India' seems very ignorant.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2010 16:57

Wonder what are they going to do if some one uses Thuraya phones they cant tap that either , during 26/11 they had to depend on unkil for transcript when the jihad-is Abduls were using Thuraya.

The communication revolution that is taking place in the world is such that no intel agency how resourceful they might be will ever be able to keep up with tapping business

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Aug 2010 18:08

The communication revolution that is taking place in the world is such that no intel agency how resourceful they might be will ever be able to keep up with tapping business

Hence where technologically not feasible (at least in a given time), countries resort to other mechanism including going to the hubs of these technologies.

As long as these technologies come out of the labs of the powers to be - they will make sure they have a quiet mechanism to tracle it.

Its only us and others who will struggle,