Indian Military Aviation

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 22:38

chackojoseph wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Which is why they are called DDM!!! did they even do a CURSORY check of how much would a JSF cost? NO. even the cost for US DOD is wahy more than $65M, today (today's $s, today inflation levels and today order #s) all these numbers CAN MOVE only in the wrong direction. I don't want to beat a dead horse. Incidentally I see no mention of JSF or MMRCA by Sec Clinton in any forum.
Sorry, the news is not DDM. If they said 'Lockheed claims,' then its Lockhedd which said it.

CJ, I have a LockMart presentation (can't share) which CLEARLY STATES the cost for the CTOL F-35A (the cheapest variant)

F35-A approx $148.5M per aircraft.

, wonder how LM would have stated a cost which is almost 35% of this? In the same presentation, there is a visual which talks about the POSSIBLE reduction in Per Unit costs which tends towards $65M (by today's $ value) by 2022 if all current assumptions are satisfied. As per 2011 cost model, the per unit cost SHOULD be around $170M and is around the $200M mark (based on the reduced # of units produced) and expected to reach the $150M mark by 2015 onlee.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 22:44

Guys, the cost I quoted is for US DOD and other Primary partners, these countries have already sunk in billions into the project and ARE WAITING to get their investment pay-back. so expect a good markup on the plane when/if sold to non partner countries like India.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Jul 2011 23:09

Shrinivasan wrote:...
CJ, I have a LockMart presentation (can't share) which CLEARLY STATES the cost for the CTOL F-35A (the cheapest variant)
F35-A approx $148.5M per aircraft.
, wonder how LM would have stated a cost which is almost 35% of this? In the same presentation, there is a visual which talks about the POSSIBLE reduction in Per Unit costs which tends towards $65M (by today's $ value) by 2022 if all current assumptions are satisfied. As per 2011 cost model, the per unit cost SHOULD be around $170M and is around the $200M mark (based on the reduced # of units produced) and expected to reach the $150M mark by 2015 onlee.

Those are the actual prices of the initial low rate production units. By the end of the decade it will still be the most produced fighter aircraft and the prices will drop.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Jul 2011 23:15

narayana wrote:Vignesh garu,i didnt say that india will use Hawks to deliver nukes,i only said that there was some opposition in britain on sale of AC as they can be used to deliver nukes,and the region is already armed and highly volatile

Narayanaji,
I am not saying that you are saying. It i was just saying that you might have got it mixed up with the sale of Jaguars. English is country where people are very much into military aviation, hence my doubt. That is all.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Jul 2011 23:28

Kartik wrote: whom was that directed at?

Regretably at the guy who quoted this

Why isn't there an alternative to the MiG-29 upgrade? Use them till their life runs out (which given the original Fulcrum's low TTL of 3000 hours would'nt take much more than a decade for the entire fleet) and divert the saved money ($18 million each unit) towards buying some 20 odd Tejas Mk1 and 50 Tejas Mk2s instead. It may not pay for the entire purchase but at least 70-75% of the total cost of such a Tejas buy.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 20 Jul 2011 23:48

Shrinivasan wrote:Sorry, the context was different. It was quoted by a DDM based on BAE's commitment and British policy regarding INDONESIA. here is the complete text
A military spokesman did not rule out the Hawks being used to attack suspected rebel positions. "Sure. They could well be used [in a direct attack role] if we wanted to," said Lieutenant Colonel Firdaus Kormano. "But we haven't decided to do that yet."
A Foreign Office spokeswoman said Britain had not received any reports of Hawks being used offensively, but would "obviously take [any reports] extremely seriously".
"Senior members of the Indonesian government and the military have repeatedly promised that British-supplied equipment would not be used offensively or in violation of human rights anywhere in Indonesia," the spokeswoman said, warning that future export licenses could come under threat if the reports were substantiated.

Indonesia had a human rights issue with East Timor, Aceh, etc and therefore the potential reluctance of some countries to sell them combat jets, the fear being that these jets would be used against civilian populations.

The UK has never been shy of selling combat jets to India, as we know from Typhoon, Jaguar, Sea Harrier, Gnat, Hunter, Vampire, etc etc. If India chooses to use Hawk for combat operations, that is up to India.

If any potential customer is suspected of potentially using the jets to shoot at civilians, expect opposition to the sale: thats just world politics.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Jul 2011 23:51

abhik wrote: Those are the actual prices of the initial low rate production units. By the end of the decade it will still be the most produced fighter aircraft and the prices will drop.

Abhikji,
Have you ever heard of Americal trying to sell anyone the F117A stealth fighter?? Nope because it was a game changer. Uncle Sam may well produce hundreds of JSF's but only an insignificant few will be for sale to non NATO/CENTO/SEATO countries. The cost of R&D will be amortized here and any further sale would be to bring up profits. This plane will not be available for commercial sales for another 15 years and by the time it hits the shelfs it'll have been old. Pretty much in line with the F16IN. A rather good aircraft, but its just doesn't have the required punch. For countries like Pakistan, its God sent but for countries like India, it'll be a curse.
Just My Opinion.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 20 Jul 2011 23:57

Talking about Hawks in IAF service, does anyone know what the white coloured pod is on the outer pylon in the picture below:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... aeHawk.jpg

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jul 2011 00:01

I believe it is a training pod to hold bombs....but I could be wrong. Look closely under the pod and you will see the latches that holds them.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jul 2011 00:07

yep, pod for holding practice bombs, BR IAF site has some snaps.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 21 Jul 2011 00:08

Its used to carry 25Kg Training bombs.. i forget its tech name.. Something like Universal Training Munitions carrier.. Not remembering it now..
Added Later: Damn Rakeshji and RahulDa beat me to it..

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 21 Jul 2011 00:10

Rakesh wrote:I believe it is a training pod to hold bombs....but I could be wrong. Look closely under the pod and you will see the latches that holds them.

Many thanks: makes sense.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Jul 2011 04:21

India's first military chopper pilot passes away

NEW DELHI: Air Commodore (retd) S.K. Majumdar, the first Indian military pilot to fly a helicopter in 1954, died at the army's research and referral hospital here Wednesday. He was 84.

Majumdar, who was born in 1927 and commissioned into the Royal Indian Air Force in 1948, had pioneered military chopper flying in India.

He had retired from the Indian Air Force (IAF) in 1977 after 29 years of service, according to the Rotary Wing Society of India (RWSI), which had honoured him with the 'Sikorsky Pioneering Award' in 2004 for his work in the field of helicopter aviation in India.

During his IAF service, he achieved many firsts - flying a helicopter, an S-55 Sikorsky, in 1954, first helicopter qualified flying instructor, first to do an amphibious operation, founder of helicopter training unit of the IAF, and first roof-top landing in 1959, the RWSI said in a release.

He was also a pioneer in mountain terrain operations and evolved concepts of mountain flying in erstwhile North East Frontier Area (NEFA) or the present day Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Nagaland, Jammu and Kashmir.

He had also achieved the enviable record of accident-free flying, the RWSI said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2011 05:47

eklavya wrote:Talking about Hawks in IAF service, does anyone know what the white coloured pod is on the outer pylon in the picture below:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... aeHawk.jpg

Pod for practice bombs. A similar one has been seen on LCA videos for bomb release testing.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:45

abhik wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:...
CJ, I have a LockMart presentation (can't share) which CLEARLY STATES the cost for the CTOL F-35A (the cheapest variant)
F35-A approx $148.5M per aircraft., wonder how LM would have stated a cost which is almost 35% of this? In the same presentation, there is a visual which talks about the POSSIBLE reduction in Per Unit costs which tends towards $65M (by today's $ value) by 2022 if all current assumptions are satisfied. As per 2011 cost model, the per unit cost SHOULD be around $170M and is around the $200M mark (based on the reduced # of units produced) and expected to reach the $150M mark by 2015 onlee.
Those are the actual prices of the initial low rate production units. By the end of the decade it will still be the most produced fighter aircraft and the prices will drop.

That part was also covered, see the bolded portion above!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:47

Bala Vignesh wrote:Uncle Sam may well produce hundreds of JSF's but only an insignificant few will be for sale to non NATO/CENTO/SEATO countries. The cost of R&D will be amortized here and any further sale would be to bring up profits. This plane will not be available for commercial sales for another 15 years and by the time it hits the shelfs it'll have been old.

Very valid point, this is not grasped by our Lifafa DDM as well as our Khan Crazed public.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2011 16:50

as many of you know, the area behind HAL airport has long housed CABS, NAL and IAF facilities. well I passed by it today and there was a HUGE facility titled DRDO System Integration and Test facility, built to quite tfta standards like sheet glass in the lobby front (itvity style)

investments have definitely poured in methinks. not sure what systems it tests and nor do I want to know. just the shakinah effect is enough.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Jul 2011 21:08

abhik wrote:...
CJ, I have a LockMart presentation (can't share) which CLEARLY STATES the cost for the CTOL F-35A (the cheapest variant)
F35-A approx $148.5M per aircraft.
, wonder how LM would have stated a cost which is almost 35% of this? In the same presentation, there is a visual which talks about the POSSIBLE reduction in Per Unit costs which tends towards $65M (by today's $ value) by 2022 if all current assumptions are satisfied. As per 2011 cost model, the per unit cost SHOULD be around $170M and is around the $200M mark (based on the reduced # of units produced) and expected to reach the $150M mark by 2015 onlee.

Those are the actual prices of the initial low rate production units. By the end of the decade it will still be the most produced fighter aircraft and the prices will drop.[/quote]

We will have to see what they mean by "basic."

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 10:06

Singha wrote:as many of you know, the area behind HAL airport has long housed CABS, NAL and IAF facilities. well I passed by it today and there was a HUGE facility titled DRDO System Integration and Test facility, built to quite tfta standards like sheet glass in the lobby front (itvity style).

Jingos heart would be thrilled if you can post a small Tasveer. My apartment is on the other side of Belandur lake. unfortunately I am struck in Khanland away from BLR

. you lucky guys in BLR!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2011 10:20

chackojoseph wrote: We will have to see what they mean by "basic."

Wings and engine will be there.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jul 2011 10:30

chackojoseph wrote: We will have to see what they mean by "basic."

Chackoetta,
The EW suite will be pretty toned down, along with the weapons package, for sure. Plus it may not contain the maintenance package and have us running around and spending more on spares..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2011 10:38

Something smells of quid pro but no quo.

India to buy ‘more’ than 16 C 17 airlifters

The Indian Government has just cleared the deal for 10 C 17s for $ 4.1 billion, and together with another six aircraft, the deal would be around $ 6.5 billion, inclusive of the 30 percent offset clause. The US Government, and the Congress, have already cleared the deal under the government-to-government Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme, and it would be sealed once the Indian Government signs the agreement and the US Government issues what is called the LoA, or Letter of Acceptance, possibly by mid-June to sell the aircraft to India.

Reliable sources however say that IAF could opt for eight more aircraft, in which case the deal for C 17s could touch a total of $ 10 billion.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jul 2011 11:09

^is it just me, or does it sound like a 1-1 replacement plan for the IL76's in our fleet???

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 12:19

Bala Vignesh wrote:^is it just me, or does it sound like a 1-1 replacement plan for the IL76's in our fleet???

It looks so... IAF has around 20 IL76. Just 2 days back there was a news that NSG were ready to deploy from Delhi on a special IL-76 aircraft... Maybe couple have been seconded for this. IAF would use the IL76s till C-17s are in place and then relegate them to some support roles as long as they have some juice in them. Also they might be stored in a boneyard to have a ready source of hard-to-get parts to keep the IL78s MIRs and A-50 AWACS purring along.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 12:23

Bala Vignesh wrote:^is it just me, or does it sound like a 1-1 replacement plan for the IL76's in our fleet???

Bala, Didn't our IL-76s undergo a refit recently (and emerged with a new paint coat!!!), I think they still have plenty of juice in them. Already some of the older air-frames had their MLU (where the tail gun was removed)... they will soldier on for many more year (easily 10+) and be used to support Indian army with strategic Airlift and to support C-17s missions. We should also have an option to lease couple of C-5s to move heavy gear to the North-East or other remote parts (Ex: Moving couple of Prahaar and Brahmos TELs to the North-East or moving a complete Agni-III TEL to Leh)

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Jul 2011 12:31

Shrinivasan wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:^is it just me, or does it sound like a 1-1 replacement plan for the IL76's in our fleet???
It looks so... IAF has around 20 IL76. Just 2 days back there was a news that NSG were ready to deploy from Delhi on a special IL-76 aircraft... Maybe couple have been seconded for this. IAF would use the IL76s till C-17s are in place and then relegate them to some support roles as long as they have some juice in them. Also they might be stored in a boneyard to have a ready source of hard-to-get parts to keep the IL78s MIRs and A-50 AWACS purring along.

That IL-76 was from the Aviation Research Center. NSG doesnt have dedicated aircraft, but now the DG, NSG can requisition any civilian aircraft.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jul 2011 13:07

Shrinivasji,
The C17 is the direct replacements for C5. And in any case most of C5 fleet is now in reserve with both the USAF and ANG units

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 13:09

Nikhil T wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:It looks so... IAF has around 20 IL76. Just 2 days back there was a news that NSG were ready to deploy from Delhi on a special IL-76 aircraft... Maybe couple have been seconded for this.
That IL-76 was from the Aviation Research Center. NSG doesnt have dedicated aircraft, but now the DG, NSG can requisition any civilian aircraft.

I agree that NSG does not have dedicated IL-76, I never claimed so, I said "seconded". I am not sure if it is an IAF IL-76 or an RAW/ARC IL-76.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 13:20

Bala Vignesh wrote:Shrinivasji, The C17 is the direct replacements for C5. And in any case most of C5 fleet is now in reserve with both the USAF and ANG units

I beg to disagree, C5s are part of the the Strategic Airlift command. USAF very much uses C-5s, but only to few AFBs in the world, from there the goods are trans-shipped in C17s or C130s.

The C-5M Super Galaxy is an upgraded version with new engines and modernized avionics designed to extend its service life beyond 2040.

Current C-5 Galaxy Inventory is as follows

Active: 33
Reserve: 45
ANG: 30[1]

Here is a recent news about C-5 Galaxy from Scotts AFB, IL (near where I live). http://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123256458. I saw couple of C-5s recently when I went to this area recently, hence my assertions.
Download this beauty of a picture for your viewing pleasures!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 750pix.jpg

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 13:25

Bala Vignesh wrote:The C17 is the direct replacements for C5. And in any case most of C5 fleet is now in reserve with both the USAF and ANG units

In 2010, I took my family to Scotts AFB for an Air Show and Open house. There we had a static display of a C5 and C-17. the C5 has a rear ramp and a nose cone that lifts up. This enabled us to just walk thru the C-5 like we were walking though a building corridor. I tired to measure by walking across the plane to be stopped at my tracks by a loving hand. The crew actually gets into the plane and climbs up a ladder to reach the pilot's controls. To drool over this.. download this TFTA picture... http://www.ng.mil/news/archives/2010/11 ... y-full.jpg of the C-5M Galaxy!!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2011 13:29

Shrinivasan wrote: I agree that NSG does not have dedicated IL-76, I never claimed so, I said "seconded". I am not sure if it is an IAF IL-76 or an RAW/ARC IL-76.

They are all the same

koti · Post by **koti** » 23 Jul 2011 13:37

I would like to know the capability of Hawks as fighter aircraft.
I would expect them to be atleast as good as early MIG-21's used for point defense.

IIRC they can be armed with Sidewinders. Can anyone list out the other supporting weapons from the platform, the relevant Avionics and general ability of the platform..?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Jul 2011 13:47

Chetakji,
I thought that the IAF birds and ARC birds were completely different and geared for different kind of missions..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2011 13:57

Bala Vignesh wrote:Chetakji,
I thought that the IAF birds and ARC birds were completely different and geared for different kind of missions..

Bala Vignesh ji,

Most times the markings are just painted out for the big birds used for "other" work (excluding the old Boeings).

The others also have specialized birds that are not in the IAF inventory.

Anuj A · Post by **Anuj A** » 23 Jul 2011 16:13

chetak wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:Chetakji,
I thought that the IAF birds and ARC birds were completely different and geared for different kind of missions..
Bala Vignesh ji,

Most times the markings are just painted out for the big birds used for "other" work (excluding the old Boeings).

The others also have specialized birds that are not in the IAF inventory.

If the IL-76 are used for "other" work by RAW ARC are entirely different to IAF IL-76 then how can they be used to transport NSG as stated above? And is there payload subsequently less as a result of "other" equipment?

Can anyone actually explain the RAW ARC and what they do? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity around them. Are the IL-76 operated by ARC on part time deputation or have they been operated by ARC since inducted into IAF and are permanently on detachment to ARC? are they flown by IAF personell whilst in ARC service? What is their actual role in ARC service? Do they carry out survelience/electronic/SIGNET warfare (I thought Boeings and Israeli bjs were used for this)? Are they only operated in Delhi or are they used by ARC elsewhere in India? Are structural changes made to be utilised in ARC's roles, are they significantly customised- added anteni, etc?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Jul 2011 16:16

ARC is meant to do all of what you asked for,of course they will never tell you what type of aircraft they fly, when/where they fly, what mods they carry. Come on Anuj your questions are not naive they are pointed, no one, not at the least ARC will part with the info you are looking for either you are a phisher or you dont know how intel agencies work

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 23 Jul 2011 16:40

Anuj A wrote:

If the IL-76 are used for "other" work by RAW ARC are entirely different to IAF IL-76 then how can they be used to transport NSG as stated above? And is there payload subsequently less as a result of "other" equipment?

Can anyone actually explain the RAW ARC and what they do? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity around them. Are the IL-76 operated by ARC on part time deputation or have they been operated by ARC since inducted into IAF and are permanently on detachment to ARC? are they flown by IAF personell whilst in ARC service? What is their actual role in ARC service? Do they carry out survelience/electronic/SIGNET warfare (I thought Boeings and Israeli bjs were used for this)? Are they only operated in Delhi or are they used by ARC elsewhere in India? Are structural changes made to be utilised in ARC's roles, are they significantly customised- added anteni, etc?

If the IL-76 are used for "other" work by RAW ARC are entirely different to IAF IL-76

Where exactly and how did you get this from my post, saar?

BTW,

ARC / RAW aircraft often transit through Delhi. You could keep watch and buttonhole the pilots. They would be the best ones to clear all your doubts. These guys are always chatty and obliging.

You can easily spot them because of their resplendent uniforms.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 23:11

Anuj A wrote:If the IL-76 are used for "other" work by RAW ARC are entirely different to IAF IL-76 then how can they be used to transport NSG as stated above? And is there payload subsequently less as a result of "other" equipment?

Can anyone actually explain the RAW ARC and what they do? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity around them. Are the IL-76 operated by ARC on part time deputation or have they been operated by ARC since inducted into IAF and are permanently on detachment to ARC? are they flown by IAF personell whilst in ARC service? What is their actual role in ARC service? Do they carry out survelience/electronic/SIGNET warfare (I thought Boeings and Israeli bjs were used for this)? Are they only operated in Delhi or are they used by ARC elsewhere in India? Are structural changes made to be utilised in ARC's roles, are they significantly customised- added anteni, etc?

ARC info is not public domain knowledge, I don't think Gurus on the forum would educate you on this.. Ask Google uncle and educate yourself please. Wiki, BR Main Site etc have an abundance of information about ARC.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jul 2011 23:12

suryag wrote:ARC is meant to do all of what you asked for,of course they will never tell you what type of aircraft they fly, when/where they fly, what mods they carry. Come on Anuj your questions are not naive they are pointed, no one, not at the least ARC will part with the info you are looking for either you are a phisher or you dont know how intel agencies work

Agree with you 100%. people need to do their homework.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Jul 2011 23:39

koti wrote:I would like to know the capability of Hawks as fighter aircraft.
I would expect them to be atleast as good as early MIG-21's used for point defense.

IIRC they can be armed with Sidewinders. Can anyone list out the other supporting weapons from the platform, the relevant Avionics and general ability of the platform..?

Hawk was designed to be slow (sub sonic) with stable and forgiving flying characteristics which is ideal for trainers. These characteristics also make it good for close air support missions. It may be capable of having AA missiles in a combat config for self defense but it will not cut it in a fast-moving-turning dogfight (which is what point defense 'fighters' get involved in). They are nowhere near MiG-21s which were intentionally designed to be unstable and therefore more frisky in the sky. Even transport planes can have AA missiles.