Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 06 Nov 2014 21:42

Something is really Foxtrot Uniform with Naval safety since past couple of years. A while back we had INS Kora incident.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Nov 2014 22:57

SagarAg wrote:Something is really Foxtrot Uniform with Naval safety since past couple of years. A while back we had INS Kora incident.

Shouldn't we have a ritual resignation now?? another seppuku??

Foxtrot Uniform should be in all caps.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 06 Nov 2014 23:57

All three services are suffering badly from Coterie Culture.

In a bid to show performance to superiors, CO's push men & material too hard, and worse, deliberately overlook material condition or maintenance.

CO's also coming straight from staff jobs and spending less & less time at sea exacerbates matters.

Unfortunately staff billets are considered to propel career growth, but does not do the service any good.

All three services have officer shortages in the field, but all staff postings are 100% filled.

India has more Admirals than Capital Ships. And New Delhi has the highest density of Admirals.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Nov 2014 00:13

INS Prahaar of 22 Missile Vessel squadron came under the command of Flag Office Maharashtra & Gujarat.

After extensive exercises off Goa all through the day, the ship was ordered to "sail independently" late that night. The CO decided to sail for Bombay. Given that the crew was exhausted after the exercises, they could've berthed that night at Goa.

Worse, the CO & officers chose to retire, and leave the bridge in command of the juniormost officer on the ship.

In the shipping channel, when two ships are on collision course, the rule is to turn to starboard, that the SCI ship did. The kid on the bridge of Prahaar panicked and ordered a turn to port thinking his speed will outrun the larger merchantman.

Visually, merchantman look clumsy, but their bulk deceives their speed, that is significant, and the subsequent momentum (mass x velocity) is immense.

Unfortunately, the Prahaar ended up climbing the bow of MV Rajeev Gandhi that correctly turned to starboard.

It was wrecked like a pup run over by a truck. The merchantman did not suffer significant damage.

As the court martial showed, in a busy shipping channel, it was dereliction of duty by the CO.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Nov 2014 00:18

Coterie culture is just a manifestation of class divide ; the RIMCians have this RIMCO club going on so someone who is in a staff posting from RIMC makes sure that his buddies get good postings (hotline routes to NHQ are busy mostly for seeking a good posting ). Then there is always a tussle between shipmen and aviators , Vice Admiral Sinha too fell to such nonsense despite an enviable resume. Then we have NDA entrants having their own group and finally the permanent commission ones vs the SSC ones from what I know latter are the most exploited bunch in the Navy , they work harder too for they need to fight it out to get a permanent commission.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Nov 2014 00:25

negi wrote:Coterie culture is just a manifestation of class divide ; the RIMCians have this RIMCO club going on so someone who is in a staff posting from RIMC makes sure that his buddies get good postings (hotline routes to NHQ are busy mostly for seeking a good posting ). Then there is always a tussle between shipmen and aviators , Vice Admiral Sinha too fell to such nonsense despite an enviable resume. Then we have NDA entrants having their own group and finally the permanent commission ones vs the SSC ones from what I know latter are the most exploited bunch in the Navy , they work harder too for they need to fight it out to get a permanent commission.

You forgot the Naval Academy types aka the Direct entries.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Nov 2014 01:04

http://indiannavy.nic.in/naval-fleet/to ... ry-vessels

These are no bigger than fishing boats.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Nov 2014 02:57

You know those silly journalist(s) who came up with the line "HSL opened it up but didn't know how to put it together again" should be given the lamppost treatment. MEanwhile, HSL should get the P75I production numbers or atleast for retrofitting DRDO-AIP into all the bicchhus

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Nov 2014 07:38

What was HSL doing for 7 years, for a refit too? The hard truth is that maintenance is a dirty word and has been for a v.long time.Aeons ago a sr.naval offr.spoke to me about the maint.crisis in the EC.The Andamans tragedy/fiasco happened shortly afterwards.The 3 services have been suffering for a decade for want of replacement of obsolete eqpt.The UPA did a great job of destroying our defence capability by simply doing nothing.30 yr old rust buckets like the TRV, MIGs,subs, etc.will simply fall apart due to old age like the human body.A great shame about the loss of life.It is apalling tha little vessels like this aren't replaced in time.It also is a black mark for the IN's safety stds.if a vessel just flounders at sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Nov 2014 07:59

I guess there was some overlap cover story created for the russian experts to come and direct the Kilo refit when infact most of them were helping on the Arihant. in the MMS speech the day arihant was launched he mentioned thanks to the 200 russians present in the ceremony. 200 is a huge number.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Nov 2014 08:30

Singha wrote:I guess there was some overlap cover story created for the russian experts to come and direct the Kilo refit when infact most of them were helping on the Arihant. in the MMS speech the day arihant was launched he mentioned thanks to the 200 russians present in the ceremony. 200 is a huge number.

probable but not necessarily plausible. Ruskies, like the israelis, habitually move in large contingents, maybe it's better for billing.

The kilo refit has been on going for quite sometime and started out as a private initiative of the HSL.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Nov 2014 09:13

vaibhav.n wrote:AFAIK, aren't S-70 their previous gen models? I thought the latest were the Romeo & Sierra variants. Then why are we then going for these hand me downs?

use some sensible terms at least. Hand-me-downs mean used airframes. Sikorsky won't be supplying any used airframes to the IN but rather new-builds.

And the reason for the MH-60R 'Romeo' not being offered was the IN's requirement for the NMRH to be capable of firing anti-ship missiles. Whereas the S-70B can fire the Penguin anti-ship missile.

in addition, the MH-60R was offered through the FMS route, which circumvented the competition and that was not considered acceptable.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Nov 2014 09:31

Kartik wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:AFAIK, aren't S-70 their previous gen models? I thought the latest were the Romeo & Sierra variants. Then why are we then going for these hand me downs?
use some sensible terms at least. Hand-me-downs mean used airframes. Sikorsky won't be supplying any used airframes to the IN but rather new-builds.

And the reason for the MH-60R 'Romeo' not being offered was the IN's requirement for the NMRH to be capable of firing anti-ship missiles. Whereas the S-70B can fire the Penguin anti-ship missile.

in addition, the MH-60R was offered through the FMS route, which circumvented the competition and that was not considered acceptable.

Sikorsky has three "current" Seahawks variants:

MH-60R Helicopter - Premier multi mission maritime helicopter (replacing legacy SH-60B and SH-60F) ["...the MH-60R aircraft enables modern navies worldwide to benefit from future decades of military interoperability with the U.S. Navy."]
MH-60S Helicopter - The ultimate maritime work horse (VERTREP, CSAR, AMCM, ASUW)
S-70B Helicopter - Proven technology, international maritime support ["...The weapons management system has a flexible open architecture capable of integrating indigenous weapons and mission equipment."]

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Nov 2014 15:20

Sindhukirti is a classic case of IN+HSL taking a chance, and when it didn't work out, the Russians demanding their pound of flesh. Nothing more, nothing less.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Nov 2014 04:12

Eye on China, India and US set to ramp up joint naval drills

NEW DELHI: India and the US are set to deepen and broaden their bilateral military exercises to include more warfare components involving nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. They would also invite more countries to join the Malabar exercises as the two nations share concerns about the growing Chinese naval presence in the Indian Ocean.

Both the Indian and US navies have been warily watching the growing Chinese naval presence in the Indian Ocean, especially its submarine manoeuvres. In the recent weeks, India conveyed its displeasure to the Sri Lankan government at least twice over its decision to permit Chinese submarines to dock in its ports.

According to dependable sources, India and US officials have had detailed discussions, including at the Defence Policy Group meeting in Washington DC, on stepping up the bilateral naval exercises. The decision involves a series of steps, starting with increasing the nuclear submarine and aircraft carrier warfare components.

The two sides are also looking at adding both army and air force components to the traditionally naval exercise.

Sources said the two sides are looking at inviting more countries, thus expanding them mostly into trilateral exercises. In July 2014, India and the US invited Japan to the exercises held in north-western Pacific. Malabar has featured Australia and Singapore, besides Japan, in 2007.

Through most of the UPA tenure, especially under defence minister AK Antony, Malabar exercises off Indian coast have mostly been bilateral affairs, in an effort not to raises Chinese hackles.

However, under the new regime in New Delhi there is a noticeable shift in the strategic posturing, especially vis-a-vis China. In Washington DC in October, the joint statement issued by Narendra Modi and Barack Obama had referred to the situation in South China Sea. It was the first time that the two sides had so explicitly referred to the issue in an Indo-US joint statement.

The move to deepen and broaden the Malabar exercises flow from Modi's declared strategic vision, especially reflected in the joint statement.

The move comes even as the government is warily looking at the growing Chinese submarine activities in the region. It has for sometimes been uncomfortable about Chinese sending its submarines as part of their anti-piracy patrols. When INS Vikramaditya was sailing from Russia starting November 2013, a Chinese submarine was in Indian Ocean observing the carrier. At one point of time, the Chinese officially informed New Delhi about the presence of its submarine in Indian Ocean, though it said it was for anti-piracy operations.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 08 Nov 2014 10:25

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11h 11 hours ago

NMRL air independent propulsion (AIP) update #1: Is a new generation phosphoric acid fuel cell.

NMRL AIP update #2: Has a power rating of over 250 kilowatt.
NMRL AIP update #3: Will extend submarine endurance by around 14 days.
NMRL AIP update #4: Operates at a few degrees above ambient temperature.
NMRL AIP update #5: Hydrogen is produced on-board.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Nov 2014 10:59

Indian MoD opts for Seahawk in navy's MRH tender

sumits · Post by **sumits** » 08 Nov 2014 11:08

Any specific reason why DRDO is persuing Phosphoric acid fuel cell instead of better alternatives?

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Nov 2014 11:37

The S70B also comes with Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD), which has been removed in the MH-60R variants.
Somehow the IN is attaching a great deal of importance to MAD for sub-hunting, as compared to USN.
We opted to have the same with our P-8I's as well, whereas the USN doesn't have the same with their P-8As.

Will · Post by **Will** » 08 Nov 2014 17:00

Anything to do with the IN mostly operating in tropical waters?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 Nov 2014 17:02

sumits_mail wrote:Any specific reason why DRDO is persuing Phosphoric acid fuel cell instead of better alternatives?

More resistant to carbon monoxide, thus gives a greater flexibility on hydrogen generation.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 08 Nov 2014 21:29

Shishir Gupta ‏@sisir_gupta 13h13 hours ago
PMO wants independent inquiry into IN TRV 72 sinking off Vizag. Evidence points to cracked hull & poor maintenance.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2014 07:05

Media reports say that seals on the prop.shafts failed and the engine romm was flooded leading to the disaster.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2014 09:44

I have a feeling high level heads are going to roll for this.

atleast it will shine the light on all the aeging 'small crafts' who are lost amidst the hoopla of principal combatants.

Namo should reduce the number of admirals in delhi to <=3.

send the rest to sea those can still hack it and pension off the rest. kill the staff desk culture

in USN (the strongest and best at the navy thing) there have been multiple cases where senior admirals and captains have been relieved of command when their ships failed inspection let alone run aground. the commander of a CVN in japan was among those in that bucket.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2014 09:59

Singha wrote:I have a feeling high level heads are going to roll for this.

atleast it will shine the light on all the aeging 'small crafts' who are lost amidst the hoopla of principal combatants.

Namo should reduce the number of admirals in delhi to <=3.

send the rest to sea those can still hack it and pension off the rest. kill the staff desk culture

in USN (the strongest and best at the navy thing) there have been multiple cases where senior admirals and captains have been relieved of command when their ships failed inspection let alone run aground. the commander of a CVN in japan was among those in that bucket.

IN too has been decisive to relive captains of their command post inquiry if faulted for.

There is no point in emulating US or any body here . For its fleet size , range and depth IN man power is lowest and teeth to tail ratio is best.

IN is forced to operate these old ships because in past 10 years the previous GOI didnt take much initiative to replace 30 years old ships and subs at the pace it should have and now they have to do with what they have in best possible way they can.

90's was lost decade for the navy and 2000 the modernisation pace was slow with IN receiving just 13 % of Defence Budget for most part , If NAMO can increase the pace of modernisation of IN thats the best thing could have happened to the Navy in decades and increase IN share in Defence Budget to more decent 25 %

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Nov 2014 10:33

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:I have a feeling high level heads are going to roll for this.

atleast it will shine the light on all the aeging 'small crafts' who are lost amidst the hoopla of principal combatants.

Namo should reduce the number of admirals in delhi to <=3.

send the rest to sea those can still hack it and pension off the rest. kill the staff desk culture

in USN (the strongest and best at the navy thing) there have been multiple cases where senior admirals and captains have been relieved of command when their ships failed inspection let alone run aground. the commander of a CVN in japan was among those in that bucket.
IN too has been decisive to relive captains of their command post inquiry if faulted for.

There is no point in emulating US or any body here . For its fleet size , range and depth IN man power is lowest and teeth to tail ratio is best.

IN is forced to operate these old ships because in past 10 years the previous GOI didnt take much initiative to replace 30 years old ships and subs at the pace it should have and now they have to do with what they have in best possible way they can.

90's was lost decade for the navy and 2000 the modernisation pace was slow with IN receiving just 13 % of Defence Budget for most part , If NAMO can increase the pace of modernisation of IN thats the best thing could have happened to the Navy in decades and increase IN share in Defence Budget to more decent 25 %

Is there any calculations regarding cost for acquisitions/modernization versus manpower costs for the three services ..off hand it seems the Navy gets the most bang for the buck ?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Nov 2014 15:49

Singha wrote:send the rest to sea those can still hack it and pension off the rest. kill the staff desk culture [/b]

in USN (the strongest and best at the navy thing) there have been multiple cases where senior admirals and captains have been relieved of command when their ships failed inspection let alone run aground. the commander of a CVN in japan was among those in that bucket.

Does Navy have full control over the complete maintenance tail of a vessel? If it does not, then you will only end up firing captains with no improvement. However, a question still remains - should the captain refuse to sail under sub optimal conditions?

I agree that our minor vessels need attention too. Surprisingly there is no plan/tender to replace these ships.

Nice pics here in Livefist:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/11/ ... essel.html

The super-structure is markedly different from the other vessel of the class. Seems to be borrowed from a SDB.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Nov 2014 16:19

Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor 16m16 minutes ago
Navy chief Admiral RK Dhowan leaves for Visakhapatnam. Will review sunk vessel search ops, meet families of deceased sailor & 3 missing.

I am sure he will be questioned personally for an explaination.

member_28782 · Post by **member_28782** » 09 Nov 2014 16:47

Aditya G wrote:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/11/ ... essel.html

Has this question been asked/answered as to why there were 25 odd people on this boat? There are about 7 in one of the pics at that looks crowded for the boat this size.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 09 Nov 2014 16:57

There was mention somewhere about presence of scientists. Probably testing something new?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Nov 2014 16:59

RajG wrote:Has this question been asked/answered as to why there were 25 odd people on this boat? There are about 7 in one of the pics at that looks crowded for the boat this size.

She was retreiving torpedo prototypes fired from two major warships. A large number of the personnel were civvies from NSTL from Varunastra programme.

The sinking of this boat may have ramifications on the NSTL project as well I am afraid.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Nov 2014 17:04

Aditya G wrote:
RajG wrote:Has this question been asked/answered as to why there were 25 odd people on this boat? There are about 7 in one of the pics at that looks crowded for the boat this size.
She was retreiving torpedo prototypes fired from two major warships. A large number of the personnel were civvies from NSTL from Varunastra programme.

The sinking of this boat may have ramifications on the NSTL project as well I am afraid.

In a pinch and with a bit of jugad, any other vessel of comparative size can be jury rigged to recover torpedoes.

Of course, NSTL folks may not be so easily convinced to embark again.

member_28840 · Post by **member_28840** » 09 Nov 2014 19:23

I am very impressed with the SAR ops mounted by the IN. although the loss of life is tragic, it could have been much worse. A boat that size would have gone under pretty fast. if the engine room got flooded like the reports say, power would have been lost right at the onset making it difficult to even get an SOS out.

Considering the boat would have been loaded with civies, many of whom probably couldn't swim, the captain would have had to make a split second decision to abandon ship and he managed to organize it relatively well given the circumstances.

Even if the COI finds the captain guilty of negligence in maintaining his ship, i think he should still be commended for getting as many of the civies off as he could.

P.S. could the sinking have been an act of sabotage? the loss of that many scientist types would definitely benefit some of our "friendly" neighbors (much like the loss of top people in the Airavat programme did).

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Nov 2014 22:53

chetak wrote:In a pinch and with a bit of jugad, any other vessel of comparative size can be jury rigged to recover torpedoes...

I was speculating impact to Varunastra programme due to loss of data, instruments and prototypes.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 09 Nov 2014 22:56

The stern seal is usually replaced every dry dock.
Most modern vessels will have a watertight compartment that is designed to flood on stern seal failure, without impacting the bouyancy of vessel.
However older vessels do not have this luxary.
There are many types of stern seals, considering this type of vessel (size/age) an educated guess would be that this was a sea water cooled stern seal.
Assuming the above, the seal is tightened such that a very slight leak of water inboard is always present, for lubrication and cooling. If an attempt made to adjust this seal is done incorrectly, there is a possibility of damaging same , with a loss of sealing.
There are many other possibilities, like the steel material that houses the seal might give way due do internal corrosion etc.
So above is just speculation.
However one fact does stand out, mantainance or lack there of.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 09 Nov 2014 23:21

Interestingly, official sources confirmed that seven scientists from Navy’s NSTL laboratory and members of Naval armaments inspection team were also on board when the mishap occurred. All of them were rescued.

http://www.samachar.com/Army-Depolitici ... aaggf.html

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Nov 2014 03:44

The pictures of that vessel make it look like Popeye's boat.

We have to get serious about kit. No more jugaad with baling wire and duck tape

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Nov 2014 03:47

RKumar wrote:Philippines eyes 2 frigates from India

Good to see India's prospect of exporting military hardware for first time. Salute to Indian Navy for taking the lead in developing indigenous systems. I hope Indian Army and Indian Air Force follow it.

MANILA, Philippines - The Philippines, which is beefing up its defense capability, is considering the procurement of naval frigates from India.

Philippine officials discussed this the other day with a visiting delegation from India led by External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid.

India has intensified its engagement with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations as part of its “Look East” policy in the past decade.

Khurshid, who met yesterday with Vice President Jejomar Binay, said the relationship between the two countries is “extremely important.”

“Now is the time to begin a new chapter,” Khurshid said yesterday over lunch with Filipino officials as he emphasized the two countries’ “shared aspirations and shared attitudes.”

The Philippines is eyeing the procurement of two frigates from India, a nuclear power with its own military shipbuilding capability.

India has built its own stealth-capable warship, which visited Manila several months ago. The Indians are developing their first aircraft carrier and will acquire one soon from Russia.

Like the Philippines, India has a territorial dispute with its neighbor China. Khurshid told The STAR yesterday that his government was pursuing engagement with the Chinese.

The other day, Khurshid and his delegation met separately with Foreign Affairs Secretary Albert del Rosario and Philippine security officials.

Khurshid, who proceeded to Manila from meetings in Brazil, leaves for Singapore today.

The Philippines is currently finalizing the procurement of fighter jets from South Korea.

Not connected with territorial row

The defense department maintained yesterday that the acquisition of fighter jets from South Korea has nothing to do with the territorial row in the West Philippine Sea.

“This has been planned even before the developments in the West Philippine Sea,” defense department spokesman Peter Galvez said in a phone interview.

Galvez was asked for a reaction after a Japanese paper reported on Monday that China had asked South Korea not to sell FA-50 jets to the country.

Galvez declined to comment on the report itself but said the military’s upgrade efforts are not related to the territorial row with China.

The defense department previously said that the lead-in fighter jets acquisition project would boost the territorial defense capabilities of the country.

Officials, however, stressed that the modernization program is not directed toward any country

They are broke and want us to gift them the ships

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Nov 2014 06:56

They are broke and want us to gift them the ships

India needs to work with there need. Barter, whatever. Get them two ships.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Nov 2014 06:57

Cosmo_R wrote:The pictures of that vessel make it look like Popeye's boat.

We have to get serious about kit. No more jugaad with baling wire and duck tape

lack of funding for IN 'tail assets' and all funds sucked up by 'teeth' due to paucity of funds.

I doubt the pondicherry class minesweepers can last a heavy deployment cycle in wartime without falling apart. duct tape and minimal use is probably what keeps them afloat dockside.

and in all wisdom the kangnam deal for MCM vessels is likely to be cancelled, square1 all over again.

the claws of middlemen is so deep, if we were to tender for 10 harbour tugs there would still be wheeling dealing for that.

reducing the number of MOD officials and Staff officials in all the 3 command HQs in Delhi is probably the first step. send them off on field postings or exile them to dhaula kuan golf club but drastically reduce the number of people and process involved in each deal. chain is only strong as weakest link. shorten and make tougher the chain.