The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
War is still on in the diplomatic domain. India sending teams to brief senior leaders in key countries.
We are always in this mindset of owing an explanation for what we have done in our supreme national interest to people who don't care about India, hoping that "someday" it will pay off and they will change their minds.
Heard the shampoo boy is being drafted to lead these delegations.
Cyrano wrote: ↑16 May 2025 23:11
We are always in this mindset of owing an explanation for what we have done in our supreme national interest to people who don't care about India, hoping that "someday" it will pay off and they will change their minds.
Very true! Nehru might have been long dead, but Nehruvianism is still alive in our bureaucrats and diplomats. These idiots go to international forums and talk in Oxford dictionary english & they live in the delusion that people are on their side.
RIGHT NOW our diplomats should be busy highlighting the Balochistan issue in all the forums where we have a presence and preparing the ground for the Independence of Balochistan. Break-up of Pakistan is simply Operation Sindoor by other means.
During Operation Sindoor, Pakistan has concentrated it's fire power on J&K to give opportunity to the separatists to attack our armed forces. We should have also used Op Sindoor to blast Pak army and PAF bases in Balochistan, so that the BLA could get some relief/ support. Today if we don't support the Balochs in their darkest hour, they will never forget it and maybe even turn against us!
Meanwhile the Pakistanis have established an interesting playbook after Balakot and Op Sindoor: deny all losses and claim a victory using photoshop. This means that the next time (and there will be a next time) around, we can skip the niceties and directly wipe out their fighters/ AWACS/ AD infrastructure/ air bases and whatever else before taking out the non-uniformed terrorists. After the precedent established, they cannot admit to any loss/ damage and will claim they shot down the entire IAF, complete with photoshopped evidence. The Western/ Chinese media will, as usual, support their claims and their junta will again be satisfied with a resounding victory. I think both sides will be happy with the outcome.
There is barely anything in (lefty) international press... some other typical anti-Indian stories abound. Hence GoI should not shy away from proper thrashing. No one is going to give medals/trophies to India from abroad. People are more worried about illegal migration and local crimes. And it is spring/summer so most people are looking forward to lounging in the sun!
vonkabra wrote: ↑17 May 2025 14:10
Meanwhile the Pakistanis have established an interesting playbook after Balakot and Op Sindoor: deny all losses and claim a victory using photoshop.
This is very well known to readers of this forum and is not a new behavior. One thing about Pakistan is that it always was Pakistan.
Pakistan had a "Hezbollah victory" in 65 - The rule of the game is that even if the entire pious army gets decimated, if one pious surviving guy with both arms, one leg, one eye gone shouts AoA!! It means that the pure have won and the kafirs have lost.
Many people have had Hezbollah victories. Pakistan in 65, Kargil and Parakram. Pakistan also had a Hezbollah victory in the Baglihar dam dispute, where the arbitrator ruled in favor of India but conceded a minor point to the Pakistanis about some arcane technical issue which India offered in the first place -- essentially means that the one legged, one eyed Pakistani delegation could should AoA!! and claim victory. Afghans won a Hezbollah victory against USSR and ofcourse Hezbollah against Israel recently (after which I was inspired to name this rule as the "Hezbollah victory rule").
It essentially means that there is a tiny string by which H&D is still hanging. Reminds me of what ramanaji posted about the importance of H&D in tribal societies: one way of denying a Hezbollah victory is to dent the H&D in a conspicuous, telling and transparent manner. Rounding up 93,000 people, taking a picture of the signing ceremony and commemorating that day like in '71 is one way.
The flip side of it is the "Argumentative SDRE" defeat. Which means much introspection, hand wringing, debate and blame game to essentially cast a victory as a defeat. Like the SDREs in Kargil -- it was a HUGE intelligence failure, lots of soldiers died, India got a nose bloodied, cashmere was internationalized, coffin scam, krasnopol didnt work, INSAS magazines cracked etc etc and so the SDREs lost. The fact that NLI got wiped out (and had to be mollified by incorporating this into PA), Pakistan got a dictator for 8 years directly & a huge purge of the Jernails because of this, BB probably got killed because of threatening to investigate it & Nawaz had to soil his shalwar and rush to Unkil does not count.
We came dangerously to a "Argumentative SDRE" defeat in '71 too - because Sam Bahadur did not mobilize fast.
Anujan wrote: ↑17 May 2025 20:52
This is very well known to readers of this forum and is not a new behavior. One thing about Pakistan is that it always was Pakistan.
Sir,
You are missing the point. Earlier, at least, there were some repercussions from such 'victories': Ayub Khan got deposed by Yahya Khan after 1965, Yahya Khan made way for Bhutto after 1971 and Nawaz tried to remove Musharraf after Kargil (and ended up getting replaced himself). Currently, though, there are only self-congratulations. The main lesson to be drawn from all this is that now they are shying away from admitting any losses at all while still claiming victory through photoshop backed claims. This means that in the next round, we can wipe out whatever they have in the air or on the ground even before attacking the terror outfits. Since they have established such a 'no-loss' precedent, any future Army or Air Chief admitting to losses will immediately be sacked (if not worse)...
As per Indian Army Tweet Pakistan did indeed fire Shaheen -1 which was intercepted, only then we started going at their Airbases big time and International players moved to save Pakistan's Ass.
One key aspect that has come to the fore is the 'IRNSS' system and its utility during the op. There was possible GPS denial (US sats) and heavy Jamming 100 in key sectors. I am sure the accurate hits we got with our mijjiles was due to the presence of the IRNSS and its phenomenal coverage across these areas.
We have experienced the GPS denial issues during Op-Parakram. Maybe, just maybe, Porkistan was dependent on BeiDou if the US GPS was denied. Did this also act towards helping in Op Sindoor?
Nikhil_Naya wrote: ↑19 May 2025 15:29
All IAF has to do is arrange for an elephant walk with all Rafales in two airbases...that will be the ultimate power show!
No need, Pakis will claim something else, let them do elephant walk with F16, J10 or JF 17, Saab Erieye, but they won't. Naysayers will be Naysayers, truth is truth. Every one wants info on how we did it, let them keep guessing
Nikhil_Naya wrote: ↑19 May 2025 15:29
All IAF has to do is arrange for an elephant walk with all Rafales in two airbases...that will be the ultimate power show!
Or
The IAF can show a photo of a Lakshya target drone painted with the caption 'PAF Fooler'
More and more it's looks like IAF fooled Pakis to release HQ9 , HQ 16 missiles and J10 to fire at Banshee drones, IAF is keeping quiet to see if Pakis will continue with this stupidity if the conflict continues.
Based on information from various sources, the officials said at least 64 Pakistani military personnel were killed and 96 injured by the Chinar Corps during the retaliatory strikes in the second week of May.
"The message was clear "our retaliation follows a 1:3 ratio, meaning the Indian Army will strike three times as hard for every Pakistani ceasefire violation," a top Chinar Corps official said.
Say what you will, all of the satellite photos, podcasts or news articles is just not satisfying as those bombing clips. All the hand-wringing over the years on these very forums have been answered by Allah Talah . Have been watching these on repeat mode.
Indian kids taking selfies with the glorious Indian Air Defence taking down drones.
If the war was won by TSP after downing Rafales and bombing Indian airbases then the fizzlya chief should be promoted, right? Why phor is TSPA's chief Asim Munir getting promoted for covering in a dark and narrow bunker like a SDRE, hainji?
My blogpost on Op Sindhoor. I have linked the videos of AM Bedi (with his permission) and Tom Cooper. The intent is to give a larger geopolitical perspective around this Operation and take it to a larger audience.
Deansji
A question and an observations; and i wanted to check with you if this rings any bell.
Observation: DJT is not as dumb as people especially the Dumbocrats and the looney leftys wants us to believe. There seem to be method to his madness.
And now the question:
Is he internationally trying to bring down BRICS nations one by one??
Because if you remember one os his first utterances was to warn BRICS about currency and stop flirting with the idea of replacing the mighty dollar.
A tribute to the unknown gunmen, silently doing their job in Pakistan. In my latest blogpost.
Some excerpts from the Blog of Deans,
Thus, in addition to the 19 believed killed by `unknown gunmen’ till 11 Nov 23 (previous blogpost), another 14 (possibly 15) have been killed till 21 May 25. As in the past, none of the assassins have been traced and no one has claimed responsibility. These men have been shot in all provinces of Pakistan (in the previous round, they were also killed in Nepal and Afghanistan).
Interestingly the killing of Saifullah Khalid and what I think is an assassination attempt on Amir Hamza, happened after Operation Sindhoor when the ISI would have provided maximum security to the surviving leadership of terror groups.
If possible share in the WhatsApp groups with links attached. Mainstream media will not or don't have knowledgeable people to cover these news in a proper manner. Suraj (Forum moderator) writes in Swarajya magazine. If they can publish articles from the Blog of Deans with exclusive rights, it is win-win for everyone.
It started as a joke that Pakistan will do something against India after they repair their bases and stockpile AA ammo.
Now after a fake bus attack or whatever it was DGISPR called a press confrence and blamed it on India. Now NOTAM is issued on their airspace from their side till June 23. Lot of buzz around something unfolding after PSL's FINAL till June 10. If Pak does something stupid then we will get the chance to end it once and for all.
It was a surprise that India restricted the retaliatory strike on terror bases only and declaring operation over. It was a surprise again that Pakistan foolishly attacked all over the border on military and civilian targets. And it was a surprise again that India kept the second retaliation only to the barest minimum. So we can't rule out more surprises. Pakistan may be thinking that the next retaliation from India will be the minimum as earlier. If not now then in a few months Pak may get tempted again to do some terror or military strikes to shift the attention from a falling economy.
It started as a joke that Pakistan will do something against India after they repair their bases and stockpile AA ammo.
Now after a fake bus attack or whatever it was DGISPR called a press confrence and blamed it on India. Now NOTAM is issued on their airspace from their side till June 23. Lot of buzz around something unfolding after PSL's FINAL till June 10. If Pak does something stupid then we will get the chance to end it once and for all.
It was a surprise that India restricted the retaliatory strike on terror bases only and declaring operation over. It was a surprise again that Pakistan foolishly attacked all over the border on military and civilian targets. And it was a surprise again that India kept the second retaliation only to the barest minimum. So we can't rule out more surprises. Pakistan may be thinking that the next retaliation from India will be the minimum as earlier. If not now then in a few months Pak may get tempted again to do some terror or military strikes to shift the attention from a falling economy.
Everything is possible with the Pakis and so we need to be proactive. However the next attack will be one notch up the escalation ladder and hence some of the economic targets will come in play. India demonstrated the ability to flatten all of Pakistan if she wants and so that will come in play too. If we destroy their ports or power infrastructure, it will take decades for them to rebuild. As the Hon Def Min as said, we have only shown the trailer of the movie so far. If Pakis want to escalate they will see the full picture and at that time they cannot even run to Uncle, because that will not work. I am not sure if Pakis are that dumb to not smell the coffee. India was very particular not to touch the civilian assets. But all that will go out of window if Pakis show insincerity.
SRajesh wrote: ↑22 May 2025 10:54
Deansji
A question and an observations; and i wanted to check with you if this rings any bell.
Observation: DJT is not as dumb as people especially the Dumbocrats and the looney leftys wants us to believe. There seem to be method to his madness.
And now the question:
Is he internationally trying to bring down BRICS nations one by one??
Because if you remember one os his first utterances was to warn BRICS about currency and stop flirting with the idea of replacing the mighty dollar.
I would like to give DJT the benefit of doubt on his policies, but am struggling to make sense of any of them and so do Republican leaning experts.
I would normally credit the American people with more sense, but if their choice was between Biden/Harris and DJT I guess the voter can't be
blamed. I don't think Trump has a BRICS policy. He sees China as threat no 1 - as does his administration. We are not opposing him on the dollar, we
will probably come to a trade agreement, so he'll probably just leave us alone, while the rest of the world gets destabilized - which is probably a good outcome for us.
SDRE tendency keeps showing up every single time. From, 3-legged cheetah to kargil, Balakot to Sindoor.
After hunting down and shooting skinny diseased terrorists dogs at point blank range in the last 3-4 years
After negating silly drones in Sindoor.
After striking mid-point of runways with less than 3 meter meter precision
After taking down hangars and letting them know in absolute devastating terms ( really!!!...think of the helplessness and shame on Paki side )
After stunning performance of our air defence.
After completely showing the stick to PN and herding them into their bases ...like a dog in a cage corner with its tails tucked in between
Do Indians have any ego or what? This tendency to hand wring even after DGMO came crawling.
Have some ego and arrogance folks.
We are stamping our authority without saying we are stamping our authority.
The new red lines are here for Pakis are here. They dont have any further options any more. Pavlovian conditioning in play.
Our equipment have proven themselves and we are establishing ourselves with our weapons systems in the larger market. Chinese paper tigers have been exposed - unreliable, under performance and quality issues in all its glory. Imagine the subtle marketing of our systems that lies beneath the all party delegation visits to countries across the globe . All the materuial will be handed over the local defence experts for analysis.
Neela wrote: ↑25 May 2025 14:08
SDRE tendency keeps showing up every single time. From, 3-legged cheetah to kargil , Balakot to Sindoor.
...
Do Indians have any ego or what? This tendency to hand wring even after DGMO came crawling....
Excellent post. I have been thinking about this all along: Is there any limit to the cowardice and foolishness of SDREs?
Typical SDRE shivering-dhoti (TSS): "The robust debate is the mark of a healthy democracy".
Me: No, this kind of negativity in the middle of a war is the mark of a cowardly society that will lose the war. The Press / media have a right to ask for pictures/videos etc. of destroyed enemy planes, but once the govt. says "No, not in the middle of a war", they have no moral right to insist and clamor for "suboot". At that point, they go from being reasonable patriots to an enemy fifth column. And make no mistake, there are elements of the desi media that act as an enemy fifth column -- they are shameless about it.
There is a reason we have (or had) the reputation of being a "soft state" (which is a diplomatic euphemism for "a cowardly nation"), and that reason is our actual behavior under threat in the past (i.e. pre-BJP).
shyamd wrote: ↑11 May 2025 23:24
The war is not over and continues in different domains.
Diplomatic - India will list TSPA Gernails as terorrists using same laws that U.S. used to get Qasem Soleimani listed as terrorist
Covert war will continue.
After Action Reviews already underway and actions being taken.
National security planners are expecting revenge strikes soon and the plans for the next phase is being drawn up. Hectic activity underway.
Hope we stop playing catch up and start Pre-emptive strikes on military-terror assets for which we get even a whiff of hint of future terror attacks. Just hoping we do this transition sooner than latter.
BIG ALERT: BSF IG Jammu Shashank Anand: "We are getting many inputs regarding terrorists returning to their launchpads along LoC & IB."
PAK TEMPTING FATE AGAIN. INDIA MUST CONSIDER PRE-EMPTIVE ACTION.
GOLA BEFORE GOLI?
Last edited by ritesh on 27 May 2025 13:37, edited 3 times in total.
Neela wrote: ↑25 May 2025 14:08
SDRE tendency keeps showing up every single time. From, 3-legged cheetah to kargil , Balakot to Sindoor.
...
Do Indians have any ego or what? This tendency to hand wring even after DGMO came crawling....
Excellent post. I have been thinking about this all along: Is there any limit to the cowardice and foolishness of SDREs?
Typical SDRE shivering-dhoti (TSS): "The robust debate is the mark of a healthy democracy".
Me: No, this kind of negativity in the middle of a war is the mark of a cowardly society that will lose the war. The Press / media have a right to ask for pictures/videos etc. of destroyed enemy planes, but once the govt. says "No, not in the middle of a war", they have no moral right to insist and clamor for "suboot". At that point, they go from being reasonable patriots to an enemy fifth column. And make no mistake, there are elements of the desi media that act as an enemy fifth column -- they are shameless about it.
There is a reason we have (or had) the reputation of being a "soft state" (which is a diplomatic euphemism for "a cowardly nation"), and that reason is our actual behavior under threat in the past (i.e. pre-BJP).
I think it is also the work of .5 front to keep SDREs with a feeling of inferiority right from the day of Independence.
Mock drill tomorrow in 4 states bordering Pakistan, weeks after Op Sindoor.
..
Civil defence mock drills are set to begin again from Thursday, in four states bordering Pakistan - Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab as well as Jammu and Kashmir.
A controlled blackout of 15 minutes will also be observed from 8pm near vital areas, with the exception of essential emergency services such as hospitals, fire stations, and police stations.
He (Modi) also stated that it was no longer a proxy war by Pakistan as terrorists had been given state funerals, indicating that terrorism was a deliberate part of the country's military strategy.
Modi added, “You are already at war, and you will receive the response accordingly. We do not seek enmity with anyone. We want to live peacefully. We also want to progress so that we can contribute to the welfare of the world.”
1) I don't think Pakis will try anything stupid, though they are inbreds. What we *can* expect is a Godhra like, deep-inside-India kindle of Muslim-Hindu riots
2) If Pakis do try, it will be wonderful news. The IAF can finish what it started
3) The above being said, I hope we order desi gear in massive numbers in the upcoming "emergency procurement"
. Have been watching these on repeat mode.
