Indian Railways Thread

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Sachin
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Sachin »

Suraj wrote:suvod, so far, all of these have been announced by the Rail Minister Suresh Prabhu:
* No emphasis made on new trains
I am a eager to reach back home to see the journos and intellectuals crying out on TV that they have been "betrayed". S.Prabhu has said that the plans for new trains is still getting worked upon, and news trains etc. may get announced during the current budget session. I don't know if this is also a indiscreet ask from the opposition parties to allow BJP to push its reforms bills etc.

On the personal front, I wish to see how many new railway line projects have got sanctioned. Kerala had demanded two, both of them at least looks to me to financially unviable. The IR also has launched "special purpose vehicle" which allows states to contribute financially to projects which would exclusively benefit them. Karnataka may go for such a scheme for Bangalore suburban transport.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by pankajs »

Fare hike of even 0.0000001 % would have immediately drawn a cry of "Anti-poor" and disrupted the Rajya Sabha for the rest of the session. I was hoping that such a hike is NOT part of the budget and I am relieved. Opposition will oppose as a matter of policy but the GOI should not hand them any easy issues.

The fare hike, if warranted, can be always be done as soon as the budget session is over and all parliamentary agenda is finished.
Last edited by pankajs on 26 Feb 2015 13:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Kashi »

pankajs wrote:The fare hike, if warranted, can be announced as soon as the budget session is over and all parliamentary agenda is done.
Fare hike IS warranted and may likely be announced post-budget session.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

Lack of a fare hike wasn't necessarily a sop. The railways saved Rs.12000-15000 crore ($2-2.5 billion) from the lower price of diesel. Their 6000 route km electrification plan for the year will also cut hydrocarbon prices as a variable affecting their budget, in favour of more stable electricity tariffs supported by rapidly increasing electricity output. Unlike motor vehicle owners who received over 15% price cuts in petrol and diesel at the pump in recent months, rail ticket prices have remained unchanged. All that excess income now gets ploughed back aggressively into capital investment, with freight rates being increased, generating additional income. I think the Railway Minister and his department have done an excellent job of kicking off a virtuous investment cycle in the railways: save the balance between lower costs and flat prices based on past higher fuel costs, cut variable costs of fuel further through electrification, increase capacity to support freight, simultaneously increase freight rates.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Kashi »

Suraj wrote:Lack of a fare hike wasn't necessarily a sop. The railways saved Rs.12000-15000 crore ($2-2.5 billion) from the lower price of diesel. Their 6000 route km electrification plan for the year will also cut hydrocarbon prices as a variable affecting their budget, in favour of more stable electricity tariffs supported by rapidly increasing electricity output. Unlike motor vehicle owners who received over 15% price cuts in petrol and diesel at the pump in recent months, rail ticket prices have remained unchanged. All that excess income now gets ploughed back aggressively into capital investment, with freight rates being increased, generating additional income. I think the Railway Minister and his department have done an excellent job of kicking off a virtuous investment cycle in the railways.
That's correct. It's a budget focussed more on fundamentals and less on populism. Do remember that despite the lower fuel prices, rail fares were increased last after after a long time and it was recognised that this was the first of many to come.

As far as electrification goes, Railways have also increased the freight on coal, which means that the thermal power plants will see a rise in their input costs and thus, the electricity tariff for the Railways will also go up. A trifle increase in passenger fares would have offset some of these.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by suvod »

Agree with you, Suraj and Kashi, that this was, more or less, the right kind of rail budget required at this time. Govt has chosen prudence over populism, a welcome change after all these years of "new trains to Bihar and WB" budgets.

On the subject of passenger fares, though everyone realizes that passenger fares are subsidized by freight, it will be difficult (from a popular sentiment perspective) to justify increases w/o visible improvements in facilities.

I'm quite encouraged by the minister's statements - he's clear that cleaning up and improving the IR is a long-term project. It'll need large-scale structural reform in the areas of organization structure, sourcing strategies as well as massive investments in operations (coach/rakes, tracks, comm., etc.).

As I mentioned earlier also, reforming Indian Railways is a massive opportunity for any central govt to prove itself and also market that success. It has complete control over its finances as well as operations, and on the customer side, it touches almost everyone's lives. Sorry for bringing in politics, but just couldn't resist.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by pankajs »

Couple of observation on the presser of the Railway ministry.

1. Should have been have organized and not every one shouting questions at the same time.
2. Question need to be answered to the point. Media need sound bites and are not going to read document or put effort to understand the logic, etc. E.g. The question on Urea fare hike should have been concise and to the point "No hike in price to farmers. The hike will be borne by the subsidy". Instead someone tried to explain the logic behind the move, revamping of the slab system, etc and failed.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

Two things I am interested in. Modernization of key railway stations in PPP mode including commercial exploitation of railway land around these stations and modern rolling stock. Has there been any announcement on these?
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by hanumadu »

What is the time frame for increase in the speed of the trains in the 9 corridors to 160-200 kmph? I think this and cleanliness will be the most noticeable things for the passengers (voters)
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by hanumadu »

Rail Budget 2015: No fare hike, no new trains, but more investment
It also includes expansion of railways' capacity substantially and modernise infrastructure (increasing daily passenger carrying capacity from 21 million to 30 million; increase track length by 20 per cent from 1,14,000 kms to 1,38,000 kms; growth of annual freight carrying capacity from 1 billion to 1.5 billion tonnes).
That's a 50 % increase in passenger capacity and freight capacity and a 21% increase in track length in just 5 years.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by chilarai »

is the budget available for download anywhere ? Track doubling in itself should lead to lot of saving in time. Would love to see the New Bongaigaon - Guwahati section double tracked. In 1994 this 190km or so section used to take 5 hrs , and last year it took me 6 hrs ( mainly due to the increase in number of trains and thus the painful crossings of 30 minutes at a time even ! )
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SBajwa »

The TV journos are the most illiterates one's I have seen. They do not compare the fare prices with rest of the world but only speed, cleanliness, etc. They do not know that in USA Railway travel costs almost same as Air.

IMHO., They need to do this

1. Put big dustbins on both ends of each Coach.
2. Employ at least 1 person for three coaches in charge of checking tickets, cleanliness and security (make sure to close the doors) and report any hooliganism to Railway Police (should have rights to enforce fines on the hooligans).
3. Increase the platform ticket price so that platforms can be cleaned.
4. Put some security company in charge of security at the railway stations.
5. and so forth.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Comer »

Little things like increasing the ratio of reservation for senior citizens for the lower berths, redesigning the ladder to climb to the upper berth etc go a long way. I like the design of Chennai Central where there is no need of any climbing stairs and every platform is accessible from the entrances themselves. Not sure how easy it is to redesign several major stations to similar design.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by RamaY »

^ The platform ticket concept should go. Its a colonial hangover to kick beggars who seek shade from elements.

Instead make railway stations as malls/economic centers. Separate general platform section (limited space) from the general train station area (open to public).
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SaiK »

some of these are a must imho for new coach designs

- eram scientific based toilets with drdo bio-digesters
- handicap friendly stations, doors, entries, exits, steps, coaches, etc.
- solar roof tops with gel batteries for lighting and fans
- cctv and integrated security system in all coaches
- mmw radars and IRST for the engine driver with 2-4 mile ranged track detection & collision avoidance
- apps and devices on each coach for ticket scanning and automatic checking [no TT required]. TT will be notified of passengers not scanned by the system 5 min before start. automatic passenger counting system
- wifi on demand,
- automatic door unlock system when train on motion

for IR
- dedicated ISRO satellites to network
- fiber optics along track as additional backup and bandwidth. railway fiber optic networks
- BARC AThWR reactors dedicated only for railway power
- multiple eram toilets on the station
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Uttam »

Three cheers to the railway budget. A truly visionary budget. This level of infrastructure spending will create ample opportunity for the private sector to participate and have a significant domino effect on the economy. Increasing speed of trains will make train travel more convenient. Increased track length, more electrification, track conversion, all these will go long way in improving service. This rail budget is more focused on improved service rather than freebees, which is the need of the hour if railways wants to compete against air travel.

Jingo Khusk hua!!!
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by vsunder »

Great Budget!! The Pune-Guntakal section electrification has to be completed as soon as possible. It is a trunk route for Chennai-Mumbai. Also Bangalore-Hyderabad is saturated on that single line. Scenic pictures and videos of trains snaking through Makalidurga aside, they need to straighten the tracks when they double line Bangalore-Hyderabad.
The single line is also partially electrified, so the doubling and electrification of this section should be done together.
Also Akola-Khandwa-Ratlam has to be re-gauged. It is the missing piece that once connected MG North with MG south. Re-gauging that section that has languished for ages will provide very quick travel time for people from Hyderabad to Jaipur etc and also movement of missile systems etc from Hyderabad area to the Western border
and broad gauge connection to Mhow onwards from Ratlam. Indore-Mhow( Mahar regimental center, Ambedkar was born here and also the location of many Army schools and establishments) a 21 km distance was finally re-gauged after 8 years.
The savings in time for Bangalore to Delhi trains will be at least 6 hours if Akola -Khandwa-Mhow is re-gauged. I understand there are issues with a tiger sanctuary here, but with all re-gauging projects an eye should be kept on straightening tracks for high speed rail in the future.
Last edited by vsunder on 27 Feb 2015 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

The amount of capital spending in the Railway Budget is astonishing. Just the spending this coming fiscal year has been increased to Rs.1,00,000cr, or ~$16 billion. Over the coming 4 years, spending will total Rs.8,56,720 crore, or approx $140 billion. This is subdivided into:
* Network decongestion and expansion (Rs.3,92,000 cr or $65 billion)
* Safety, rolling stock, station development (each >Rs.1,00,000 cr, or $16 billion each)
* High speed rail (Rs.65,000 cr, $11 billion)

The spending profile is very sensible. HSR gets the lower profile it deserves now. It can be built out far more effectively in the early 2020s on the back of straightened double-tracked electrified alignments built using the huge network decongestion and expansion spending in this 5 year period.

R Jaggi's article on the railway budget provides the data above, and is also an excellent read on the topic.

More breakdown here : Rail Minister outlines 4-year investment plan worth over Rs. 8.6 lakh cr
In his rail budget speech on Thursday, he said that the investment plan would set aside over Rs. 1.99 lakh crore for network decongestion (dedicated freight corridor, doubling of tracks, electrification and traffic facilities) and Rs. 1.93 lakh crore for network expansion, including electrification.

Investment on safety (track renewal, bridge works, ROB, RUB and Signalling & Telecom) would be to the tune of Rs. 1.27 lakh crore, while production and maintenance of locomotives, coaches and wagons have been earmarked Rs. 1.02 lakh crore over the four-year period.

Station redevelopment and logistics parks would receive an investment of Rs. one lakh crore, while high speed rail and elevated corridor would see investments worth Rs. 65,000 crore.

An amount of Rs. 39,000 crore has been set aside for national projects providing connectivity to the Kashmir valley and the North-Eastern states, Rs. 12,500 crore for passenger amenities, Rs. 5,000 crore for IT and research and other issues a sum of Rs. 13,200 crore.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SaiK »

ToIlet, NDTV, CNN-IBN, Other regional channels of MK, Kangrez and commie ruled states must be banned by nationalistic people. Just shut off their TV, don't hit their websites nor talk about it.

however, FP seems to occasional throw some good articles like this:
http://www.firstpost.com/budget/railway ... 23393.html
Rail budget 2015: Prabhu's big spending push ends investment drought

Suresh Prabhu has produced a Rail Budget for 2015-16 that is designed to make the Indian Railways one of the key drivers of the India Growth Story over the five-year term of the Narendra Modi government. With the first year more or less gone, Prabhu has four years to deliver.
He is planning to do this by dramatically increasing investments in freight and passenger capacity, including safety and speed. He wants to expand passenger capacity by 43 percent to 30 million daily; increase track length by 20 percent; and boost freight handling capacity by 50 percent to 1.5 billion tonnes.
Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu. Image courtesy PIBRailway Minister Suresh Prabhu. Image courtesy PIB
It’s about making the Indian Railways a third larger in just one term of office of the NDA government.
Prabhu underlined his serious intent by proposing a sharp push-up in plan expenditure by 52 percent in 2015-16 to Rs 1,00,011 crore. The centre is footing 41.6 percent of this bill, internal profit generation will yield 17.8 percent. The rest will come from borrowings and unconventional sources, including equity contributions from states keen on enhancing their own rail infrastructure.
The higher investment requirements will be met – at least this year – not through an increase in passenger fares, but higher freight that was not really mentioned in Prabhu’s speech. The fine print suggests that Prabhu will be raising more freight revenues not through a general increase in goods carriage tariffs, but by subtly reclassifying cargo categories and distance slabs to generate more revenues from the same basic freight rates. Smart.
The breast-beating will begin later, when railway shippers realise whom these reclassifications will bite.
But the larger message of Prabhu’s rail budget speech is simple. It is a statement of intent by the Narendra Modi government that it will kickstart growth through higher public investment. Prabhu has delivered a part of that promise by raising his plan spends. Prabhu has delivered a slight increase in plan spends for 2014-15 as well – 0.5 percent more than budgeted at Rs 65,798 crore despite a half percentage point drop in gross traffic receipts at Rs 1,60,165 crore over budget estimates.
Despite this, Prabhu has produced a surplus of Rs 7,279 crore after increasing appropriations for the pension fund and depreciation, thanks to lower fuel prices and “better financial management.”
For 2015-16, Prabhu has proposed a significant increase of 16.7 percent in passenger traffic and an 85 million tonne hike in freight traffic, to generate gross traffic receipts of Rs 1,83,578 crore – up 15.3 percent from 2014-15.
Given that this year he may miss his freight traffic numbers (Prabhu had hit 73 percent of his revised target till December 2014), it is anybody’s guess whether Prabhu will be able to significantly improve on his performance next year, when freight rates will be higher for many users. But higher freight rates gave him higher revenues of 14 percent in 2014-15; next year should be no different, especially if the economy starts turning around.
But the real message of Prabhu’s message goes beyond the numbers. There are both political and economic signals emanating from it.
First, the Indian Railways plan to become more consumer-focused, both towards passengers and freight customers. This is apparent from the number of passenger amenities Prabhu announced, including better food, cleaner toilets, better safety and security, better stations, more coaches per train, etc. For freight customers, the promise is speed, better logistics handling capacity, freight rebates for areas with low loading potential, and a revamped private freight terminal policy, among other things.
Second, the railways will invest heavily to boost both their own revenues, and the country’s growth. The cycle of underinvestment in the railways is coming to an end. A four-year investment plan, co-terminous with the NDA government’s tenure till 2019, proposes investments of Rs 8,56,020 crore, the bulk of it for network decongestion and expansion (over Rs 3,92,000 crore between them), and significant investments in safety, rolling stock, and station redevelopment (all above Rs 1,00,000 crore each). High-speed rail and elevated corridor gets Rs 65,000 crore.
Third, resources will be generated for growth and investment both through support from the general budget, and new borrowings, especially from pension funds and insurance companies which have a longer-term horizon. Prabhu said that he expected more money to be raised through market borrowings, leveraging the balance-sheets of the railway production units (coach, wagon and engine building units, among others), and contributions by state governments to equity in projects where they are expected to partner with the railways.
Fourth, formal populism has been abandoned and reform and rejuvenation are the way forward. For what may be the first time ever, no new railway lines or trains were announced. The focus was entirely on upgrading existing infrastructure by increasing the carrying capacity of existing lines through gauge and track changes, doubling or quadrupling lines on key routes, increasing electrification, raising average train speeds, and completing projects that were in their final stages. Politicians may not appreciate this attention to detail, but management gurus would. Past, present and future investments are being made more productive.
Fifth, it is crystal clear that Modi has no thoughts about tinkering in any way with the ownership of the railways. There is no move to corporatise the railways, nor is there any major talk of privatising the core operations of train or wagon operations. At best, private partnerships will be invited in ancillary activities like station improvements, wagon purchases, and logistics.
Prabhu’s is a technocrat’s budget, driven by the need to push investments and set the finances of the organisation right over a medium-term timeframe and make the system self-financing. And yes, Modi wants the railways to be an important engine of growth.
ps: apologies Suraj, didn't see your link to this. I guess 'll leave it as is unless you think it is a violation.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SSundar »

Fifth, it is crystal clear that Modi has no thoughts about tinkering in any way with the ownership of the railways. There is no move to corporatise the railways, nor is there any major talk of privatising the core operations of train or wagon operations. At best, private partnerships will be invited in ancillary activities like station improvements, wagon purchases, and logistics.
Unfortunately, the PM cornered himself by assuring Railway Unions that he will not be looking to privatize any railway operations. It might have been prudent to allow private players to operate stations on a build-operate-transfer basis. It is not possible to realize the dreams about clean stations doubling as shiny malls unless private players do it. This could have put a lot more cash into the Railways' kitty for additional infrastructure.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

The budget talks about private participation in railway ancillary services:
Railway minister invokes investment through PPP route
Rolling out the red carpet for the private sector, Suresh Prabhu, in his maiden Railway Budget, amalgamated public welfare with private investment. While investment through public-private partnerships (PPP) was increased to Rs 5,781 crore, several schemes for improving efficiency of the Railways were kept under this head.

Though missing finer details were a dampener for some investors, the comforting fact was invigorated focus on private investment. "The Budget lacks in fine detail but promises a superior ride to everyone from passengers to private participants with a slew of measures aimed at improving operational efficiencies and invigorating the PPP model and nodal agencies," said Ravi Uppal, managing director and group CEO, Jindal Steel & Power.
There's no reason that cannot include private involvement in turning stations into multi-use malls following the Japanese model. The Railway Minister simply did the right thing by not making concrete declarations about the matter at such an early stage. But their overall focus indicates they want investment and efficient execution from whatever option that's available.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Picklu »

God speed Prabhuji on execution after delivering a solid infra oriented rail budget. Parallel can be drawn to a different budget by another technocrat under PVNR. What happened to that technocrat later shows the importance of PVNR and NaMo at the top.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SwamyG »

We do not need stations to be shinny malls. It has to provide the following:
1. Protective waiting area: From the elements of nature and beasts (including the human varieties).
2. Clean waiting area: Clean toilets, running waters ityadi keeps the environment clean and hygienic.
3. Convenient waiting area: Clean good food, potable water, basic time-pass entertainment, modern communication + business needs, wifi ityadi.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by prahaar »

SwamyG wrote:We do not need stations to be shinny malls. It has to provide the following:
1. Protective waiting area: From the elements of nature and beasts (including the human varieties).
2. Clean waiting area: Clean toilets, running waters ityadi keeps the environment clean and hygienic.
3. Convenient waiting area: Clean good food, potable water, basic time-pass entertainment, modern communication + business needs, wifi ityadi.
The malls are not necessarily for passengers. These are to finance the three bullets you listed. In metros, land is too expensive to be used ONLY to wait for a train. The passenger tickets can never finance the "land-rent".

----------------------------------------

My comment specifically related to A1 stations. Surat/Indore/Banglore/Hyderabad/etc.
Last edited by prahaar on 27 Feb 2015 09:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Sachin »

SBajwa wrote:2. Employ at least 1 person for three coaches in charge of checking tickets, cleanliness and security (make sure to close the doors) and report any hooliganism to Railway Police (should have rights to enforce fines on the hooligans).
The current role of the TTE is exactly that, but perhaps excluding the cleanliness part. A TTE generally is in charge of 2-3 coaches, and ideally it is his job to ensure that coaches get locked up after the train departs each station. But he generally is all alone, and in many cases non-bonafide passengers gang up to target him.

RPF and RPSF are again a special case. As per their Act and rule books, RPF and RPSF is only to protect "railway property". They really are not very much bothered about crimes in trains or passenger safety. So for the normal "law & order" policing each state has its own "Government Railway Police" with men deputed from the local state police. And railways pay half their salary. My personal take would be to amend the laws in such a way that RPF and RPSF becoming the only police force dealing with security (of railways & passengers) in the country. GRP cadre should get reverted back to the state police. RPF too hires people from every state, so language issues etc. cannot be a problem. There are also"railway magistrates" in many towns/cities who hear cases exclusively for IR (mainly for illegal parking, ticket less travel etc.)
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Post by SwamyG »

I am not opposed to using stations for economic activities or for generating sustainable revenue. My point is that it does not have to be chi-chi and all shinning in glory types of mall.

#1 & #2 should be fully free.
#3 is where you could generate revenue.
Last edited by SwamyG on 27 Feb 2015 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by suvod »

This is a good start. But we should all recognize one issue. Long-term improvement in IR will need structural reforms in how IR is governed. As of now, with excessive centralization, there is no clear accountability for maintaining either trains or stations. As Bibek Debroy states in his series of articles, neither does the Station Master have complete authority over the station nor does the TTE / anybody on the train have full authority for resolving issues. All powers are concentrated at the Zone & Division levels and authority flows down in a departmental manner. So, stations & trains, which are the main interfaces with the consumer, are not governed as units but as a combination of multiple departments.

From the budget, and from some statements that Mr. Prabhu has made, it becomes apparent that the govt. acknowledges this issue. But will it be able to do anything to resolve this? I was watching a TV discussion last night, where the journalist Vivian Fernandez made a very pertinent observation. If history is anything to go by, this govt will face tremendous resistance from the IR babudom (the railway board and the zonal GMs) for any fundamental reform. Does Mr. Prabhu have the intent as well as werewithal to take up the fight?
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

SwamyG wrote:We do not need stations to be shinny malls. It has to provide the following:
1. Protective waiting area: From the elements of nature and beasts (including the human varieties).
2. Clean waiting area: Clean toilets, running waters ityadi keeps the environment clean and hygienic.
3. Convenient waiting area: Clean good food, potable water, basic time-pass entertainment, modern communication + business needs, wifi ityadi.
As prahaar explained this isn't merely cosmetic . The railways has undeveloped prime real estate that can generate massive rental income if they enable the creation and operation of such malls on their station property, giving them a huge amount of rental and royalty income as well as assured business.

The entrances of many Japanese stations don't even look like stations . Some like Shibuya station is pretty much several stories of prime commercial space and retail establishments, with a sanitized station area downstairs . IR similarly has a lot of undeveloped real estate around stations in many cities that it can exploit for a continuous stream of income and traffic.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SSundar »

Suraj wrote: The entrances of many Japanese stations don't even look like stations . Some like Shibuya station is pretty much several stories of prime commercial space and retail establishments, with a sanitized station area downstairs . IR similarly has a lot of undeveloped real estate around stations in many cities that it can exploit for a continuous stream of income and traffic.
That was my intention as well - the revenue from commercial activity on Railway property across the country could easily fund more infrastructure and technology build-up. Influx of private money into construction activity in all major stations will also be a good economic booster.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Prasad »

This 'we should not aim to have chi-chi stations. We are sdre onlee. Plain old functional items are enough' thinking will not work. Aim for the stars and all that jazz.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Sachin »

In the mean while. 'The Hindu', on the sly tries to get an ex-Railway Minister's one sided opinion as some kind of expert analysis. But looks like The Hindu itself realises that the bluff was called this time, and has allowed too many comments praising the budget.
Dreams without a vision
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

I was expecting more concrete things on developing modern stations in PPP mode and rolling stock. It is going to be one year in May. They need at least three years to get something on the ground. Railways is one of the most visible faces of the govt. Chi-chi stations and rolling stock will earn them brownie points. Seems too slow to me.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by pankajs »

Suraj wrote:The amount of capital spending in the Railway Budget is astonishing. Just the spending this coming fiscal year has been increased to Rs.1,00,000cr, or ~$16 billion. Over the coming 4 years, spending will total Rs.8,56,720 crore, or approx $140 billion. This is subdivided into:
* Network decongestion and expansion (Rs.3,92,000 cr or $65 billion)
* Safety, rolling stock, station development (each > Rs.1,00,000 cr, or $16 billion each)
* High speed rail (Rs.65,000 cr, $11 billion)
That is a substantial spend.

Where is the 1,00,000 cr going to come from? The Railway minister did make some vague noise about bilateral/multilateral/PPP model for funding the 8 lakh crore overall plan but did not go into details and from whatever little commentary I have heard the document too is not very clear.

That I think is deliberate on the following counts
1. There are a troika of documents. A white paper followed by the railway budget document and there is supposed to be some document following that. IIRC, the last document is still awaited.
2. They are still to work out a new PPP model because the current one have not delivered results. Not just for railways but for other infrastructure projects too.
3. Anything resembling *private* money is going to be branded *privatization*, a *sellout* and *anti-poor*. The GOI is being very cautious wrt this session as was obvious again from todays speech in Lok sabha. Modi stressed that any provision that was *anti-poor* or was it *anti-farmer* wrt Land acq. act would be removed.

I expect clarity on the funding only after the budget session is over. How else but through private participation will the funding gap be met?
Last edited by pankajs on 27 Feb 2015 19:40, edited 2 times in total.
Supratik
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

Thats possible. I hope they start something right after this LS session. Railways is very visible to the aam admi and will have election benefits.
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Post by SwamyG »

Prasad wrote:This 'we should not aim to have chi-chi stations. We are sdre onlee. Plain old functional items are enough' thinking will not work. Aim for the stars and all that jazz.
Saar, in the long term when any business moves away from its core capacities and necessities; it accumulates liabilities and finally wisdom dawns and the businesses shed the extra baggage.

Chi-chi types could be a side-effect when the main goals are achieved. But that should not be the main goal. True, the World has changed in the 21st century; so I am not advocating stations like what they were in 1947. Modernization, some glass, some chrome are all nice and welcome. And I do not deny that the lands and other assets could be repurposed for profitable economic activities. I am not against profit or improving the stations.

What would be a great goal is that make each station self-sustainable, that is as much as possible, by in itself. For example, it could generate electricity (solar panels, wind mills) ityadi to power low energy requiring gadgets. Bulbs could be changed to consume less energy, the book stalls and canteens can be made spick-and-span.

Sometimes when going for the chi-chis we miss the main goal, so I was just reminding the main purpose of the station. People get so enamored with what is in Europe, America and China and end up missing the bus or boat.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by RamaY »

I think the PPP model can be used for station development. This model can be seen in Metro projects. For example the Hyderabad Metro project has some land given to L&T to develop as commercial centers especially in/around metro stations to cover majority of project cost.

- IR can lease the land in major railway stations for 40-50-99 yrs.
- Private firms develop these railway stations into a commercial-residential-centers with high-class amenities.
- Private firms can sponsor specific roots as advertisement for their firms. I hear this includes naming the services in their corporations name. For example there can be a "Reliance Express" for a HSR from Delhi to Mumbai and a 'Tata Express' between Delhi-Kolkata etc.,

We should aim for Chi-Chi stations. To understand its impact, one should look at the happiness when lower middle-class/poor kids/people get to use high-end infra in airports, malls etc., More than anyone, the they have a right to enjoy the fruits of "Bharatiya Resurgence".
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Supratik »

Exactly but I doubt even Tata-Ambani have the kind of money needed for HSR. It has to be govt to govt funding. We should concentrate more on upgrading the current railways.
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Post by RamaY »

Supratik wrote:Exactly but I doubt even Tata-Ambani have the kind of money needed for HSR. It has to be govt to govt funding. We should concentrate more on upgrading the current railways.
I don't think they will be asked to build HSR ground up. Key routes/train-services can be auctioned for private management & service only. This will be mainly passenger routes because that's where advertisement makes sense.

Major freight roots will be monetized and the annual proceedings will be used to attract Pension funds. For example assume a specific route (Say Delhi-Mumbai) brings Rs 10,000 Cr freight income ($1.5B) per year (current). This can be monetized (Rate 4% GoI covers FX risk, Duration 30Yrs) for ~$25B. This can be used to develop a 2500mile HSR (@$10M/mile for HSR). Delhi to Mumbai is 1439KM, that means they can develop a two lane HSR in this sector.

Same goes with India's top 50 train stations/junctions. Each state has the capital city and at least another major city. Monetize the commercial rental income (Rents). I posted earlier a case study on Secunderabad station which has nearly 1Sq.KM area that can attract nearly $1B investment into a single train station.

Rinse and repeat for major Infra routes.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by SaiK »

Prasad wrote:This 'we should not aim to have chi-chi stations. We are sdre onlee. Plain old functional items are enough' thinking will not work. Aim for the stars and all that jazz.
egg-jack-t-lee.
but, IR must have bare minimum facilities [no sdre/tfta.. reach for the stars here - ek maar do thukada]
- hygiene services [modern toilets, UV/RO treated water, modern kitchens]
- secure access [handicap friendly, cctv, security men, devices, checks, baggage scanners]
- quality maintenance [skilled team, paid well, top notch service,
- modern rails/coaches [redesigned, modern toilets la eram scientific, solar panels roof top for lighting and fan, advanced and integrated ticketing system, scanners, apps integrated, kitchen, bar, etc]
- facilities - continuous build/test/change/rectify

rest is all private
- services - outsource
- rented out land
- infrastructure rent/lease/BOT

railways
- double all lanes - one way traffic only
- HSR lanes minimum/electrified
- look towards dedicated electric power stations, home grown nukes
- connectivity and data grid via optic fiber
- dedicated IR satellite channel
- wife/tv services in each coach
..

sky is the limit. go for it... no staging, shagging.. we have no time left actually to catch up.
just screw and jail those people who misuse stations as toilet services. worst case, chop their manhood if needed./sorry behave first.
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Re: Indian Railways Thread

Post by Suraj »

I'm not sure what's so 'chi chi' about a multimodal transit and retail hub system being implemented around stations with private investment. It's simply a situation where commercial and traffic potential is maximized, as opposed to creating posh facilities as a speculative investment. This works most effectively for urban transit or suburban rail terminii . E.g. in Mumbai, the CST, Churchgate, Dadar, etc can all become hubs that challenge the world's biggest like Shinjuku, Ikebukuro and Shibuya. All those are glitzy yes, but that's just the retail area built out with private money. The railway part looks its age, but is just clean and efficiently maintained. There are probably Delhi Metro stations whose trackside area looks a little more modern.
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