Artillery Discussion Thread

[rohitvats]

^^^Thanks.

[vic]

I think we should go in for semi automated 155mm howitzer like Russian 2A36. It will be 1/10th the price of an automated foreign maal and we can pre- position these guns. Instead of 2500-4000 howitzers we can spread out and store 25,000 to 50,000 howitzers.

[Pratyush]

^^^

Who are you planning to fight with 25000 to 50000 guns. Hmmm... the ROW put together.

PS: Does any one know if the IA has indeed released the GSQR. The basis of which the guns will be procured.

[Surya]

we can spread out and store 25,000 to 50,000 howitzers

[Singha]

we generally have lots of people available unlike the threadbare nato armies that cannot properly put up a couple of fully manned divisions.
crew fatigue could be an issue, but high levels of automation should not be mandatory unless it comes at a reasonable price. if 15,000 extra trained arty corps people can help, why not train them up and accept X = archer-- rather than archer. as a bonus they can also x-train on other eqpt and function as a massive reserve capacity. PLA 2nd arty is said to be very well manned indeed.

north korea is probably a good example which has stuffed a ugly but effective arty piece under every rock and threatens to unleash a hailstorm of fire if someone crossed the DMZ

[Kakarat]

India, Russia sign agreement for producing Smerch rockets

NEW DELHI: India and Russia have signed an agreement for producing the 80 km-range Smerch rockets at ordnance factories here.

"Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) signed an MoU for a joint venture with Russian Rosoboronexport and Splav 'Spa' to manufacture five versions of Smerch rockets based on the transfer of technology from Russia," the Defence Ministry said in a release here.

More than two regiments of the Smerch rockets have been in service in the Army after their induction about six years ago.

"Smerch rockets are technologically superior having a range of 70-80 kms. After indigenizing the technology of Smerch rockets, OFB will attain new heights in manufacturing of advanced rocket system," the Ministry said.

It said the MoU approved by Defence Minister A K Antony was signed by the three sides yesterday.

Over the years, Russia has emerged as the largest supplier of weapons to the Indian armed forces.

The two sides have been discussing the local production of Smerch missiles for a long time now and it is believed that OFB, Ambajhari will be the manufacturing agency.

OFB Ambajhari is also involved in manufacturing a major chunk of the rockets of the Pinaka Multi-barrel Rocket Launchers (MBRLs).

OFB is also working on local production of 155mm 39 calibre Bofors artillery howitzers.

[Kartik]

India, Russia sign agreement for producing Smerch rockets

NEW DELHI: India and Russia have signed an agreement for producing the 80 km-range Smerch rockets at ordnance factories here.

"Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) signed an MoU for a joint venture with Russian Rosoboronexport and Splav 'Spa' to manufacture five versions of Smerch rockets based on the transfer of technology from Russia," the Defence Ministry said in a release here.

More than two regiments of the Smerch rockets have been in service in the Army after their induction about six years ago.

This article is a little unclear..are the OFB only looking to produce more Smerch 'rockets' to add to and replace inventory or the entire Smerch systems to equip new regiments in addition to the existing 2?

[vic]

Attempt to kill, delay, reduce orders of Pinaka and Prahaar

[Kartik]

Attempt to kill, delay, reduce orders of Pinaka and Prahaar

If it only lets OFB replenish stocks of Smerch rockets, then it will not kill Pinaka or Prahaar. But if it indeed is to produce entire Smerch systems (which I somehow doubt, otherwise this would've been a far bigger news item with a lot of cost associated with it), then yes, one might worry about what it would do to additional orders of the Pinaka specifically.

[Samay]

Another aspect is that it will boost the numbers while Pinaka is added on its own rate of production . Also a pickup truck is used differently than a car.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Otherwise, exactly where are RFPs posted online? Is there a central GoI web portal to all government tenders?

Tenders

-Ankit

^^^^ Thanks Ankit!

[rohitvats]

Attempt to kill, delay, reduce orders of Pinaka and Prahaar

If it only lets OFB replenish stocks of Smerch rockets, then it will not kill Pinaka or Prahaar. But if it indeed is to produce entire Smerch systems (which I somehow doubt, otherwise this would've been a far bigger news item with a lot of cost associated with it), then yes, one might worry about what it would do to additional orders of the Pinaka specifically.

Kartik - we have grand total of three Smerch Regiments in IA and last I checked, there were no further orders nor has army shown any inclination to buy more. Pinaka induction is set at 2 x regiments per year for the current plan. Prahaar induction timeline is not clear...to me, this looks like agreement for rockets of Smerch system.

[vic]

When Pinaka was being tested the nearest MBRL we had was Grad with Range of 20km and Accuracy of 4% of range. OFB manufactured Rockets had accuracy of 8% of range. But with Pinaka Army insisted on 40km range and 1% accuracy. Now Pinaka has range of 38-42km and accuracy of 1% of the range. Inspite thereof the orders are stuck at 2 Regiments. Russians who were unwilling to part with Smerch Tech suddenly want to groom another era of screw driver (TATRA type) technology transfer. Prahaar way more effective than Smerch is getting no orders. Pinaka is going through the same troubles as Arjun vs T-90, Nag trials compared to easy love for Kraspanol etc.

[member_23629]

When Pinaka was being tested the nearest MBRL we had was Grad with Range of 20km and Accuracy of 4% of range. OFB manufactured Rockets had accuracy of 8% of range. But with Pinaka Army insisted on 40km range and 1% accuracy. Now Pinaka has range of 38-42km and accuracy of 1% of the range. Inspite thereof the orders are stuck at 2 Regiments. Russians who were unwilling to part with Smerch Tech suddenly want to groom another era of screw driver (TATRA type) technology transfer. Prahaar way more effective than Smerch is getting no orders. Pinaka is going through the same troubles as Arjun vs T-90, Nag trials compared to easy love for Kraspanol etc.

The army generals have to be given some lessons in self-reliance and how no army can become great and truly powerful by buying its arms from foreigners who can shut off the tap anytime. The generals have an attitude problem. It is for the defence ministry to drill some sense into them.

[rohitvats]

When Pinaka was being tested the nearest MBRL we had was Grad with Range of 20km and Accuracy of 4% of range. OFB manufactured Rockets had accuracy of 8% of range. But with Pinaka Army insisted on 40km range and 1% accuracy. Now Pinaka has range of 38-42km and accuracy of 1% of the range. Inspite thereof the orders are stuck at 2 Regiments. Russians who were unwilling to part with Smerch Tech suddenly want to groom another era of screw driver (TATRA type) technology transfer. Prahaar way more effective than Smerch is getting no orders. Pinaka is going through the same troubles as Arjun vs T-90, Nag trials compared to easy love for Kraspanol etc.

Why don't you do some research before going off on a tangent and posting ill-informed rant? <EDITED>

Are you saying that Army should have asked for same specifications for Pinaka (inducted in 2008) as that of BM-21 GRAD - which was developed in 60s? And that by asking for 1% accuracy Army was after some unobtanium? What kind of logic is this? And do you know how many Regiments of BM-21 we have in IA?

As for 2 x regiments per annum for Pinaka - what logic do you have for army to order more regiments? What is the equipment scale planned by IA in terms of Rocket Regiment that you 'KNOW' for sure to make accusation about army making piddly orders for Pinaka?

And what is the the status of Prahaar? Has DRDO said that the missile is ready and in position to become operational? Do you know for sure the status of development cycle of Prahaar Missile? Can you share some literature on the subject matter? And finally, Care to show me the enthusiasm or otherwise of army as far as this missile is concerned?

[member_20453]

Pinaka production is fast and steady, Smerch orders is not a bad thing since Prahaar has a higher range Smerch meets the sweet spot requirement of upto 90 km. Smerch rockets also come in different warhead types. Prahaar was tested once so far, still quite a few tests away from being inducted or ordered. In it's final config it should be able to fire different tyopes of warheads in savlo mode from a launcher with six missiles. I think if they speed things up, these tests can be done by end of next years to have a large order.

[rohitvats]

When Pinaka was being tested the nearest MBRL we had was Grad with Range of 20km and Accuracy of 4% of range. OFB manufactured Rockets had accuracy of 8% of range. But with Pinaka Army insisted on 40km range and 1% accuracy. Now Pinaka has range of 38-42km and accuracy of 1% of the range. Inspite thereof the orders are stuck at 2 Regiments. Russians who were unwilling to part with Smerch Tech suddenly want to groom another era of screw driver (TATRA type) technology transfer. Prahaar way more effective than Smerch is getting no orders. Pinaka is going through the same troubles as Arjun vs T-90, Nag trials compared to easy love for Kraspanol etc.

The army generals have to be given some lessons in self-reliance and how no army can become great and truly powerful by buying its arms from foreigners who can shut off the tap anytime. The generals have an attitude problem. It is for the defence ministry to drill some sense into them.

So, one guy makes a nonsensical post and you use that to make another completely flippant remark on the Services? Did you bother to check the correctness of the post you were quoting before becoming the keyboard ninja? Why don't you put some research of your own before posting and let others also benefit than making inane post like the above? I have asked some questions to the poster whose post you quoted - how about doing research on the same and let us gain from the insight.

[member_20453]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYnBmxjf ... re=related

Smerch is certainly a bad ass weapon

[rohitvats]

Pinaka production is fast and steady, Smerch orders is not a bad thing since Prahaar has a higher range Smerch meets the sweet spot requirement of upto 90 km. Smerch rockets also come in different warhead types. Prahaar was tested once so far, still quite a few tests away from being inducted or ordered. In it's final config it should be able to fire different tyopes of warheads in savlo mode from a launcher with six missiles. I think if they speed things up, these tests can be done by end of next years to have a large order.

Except for the range part - there is no comparison between Smerch and Pinaka. And Smerch came in at a time when there was no other alternative. IA has not been very appreciative of MBRL systems as were obtained earlier. The number of regiments we have of BM-21 is a testimony to that - this when coming from USSR, they were bound to be very cheap. I don't think IA ever liked the 'spray-and-pray' approach of BM-21 type of systems.

IA warmed up to MBRL system with Pinaka and over the current defense plan (2012-2017), the total number of regiments should rise to more that 15. Plus, we have research going on to extend the range of Pinaka and more accuracy+warheads.The way I see it - Smerch type of long range MBRLs will be complemented with Pinaka-2 with higher range reaching Smerch level. While Pinaka will continue to be the mainstay in 40kms bracket.

Prahaar on the other hand is going to be a proper missile - with higher accuracy and more strategic roles. There is a reason IA calls its regiments equipped with BM-21/Smerch/Pinaka as Rocket Regiments and Brahmos equipped regiments as Missile Regiments - and Prahaar will be with Missile Regiments.

[vic]

Re Admins:-

Somehow it seems that personal attacks By rohitvats on who-so-ever disagrees with his views is ok. why?

[P Chitkara]

Doesn't look like IA is cold towards pinaka. Nor do I see them jumping for increasing the smerch numbers.
---OT-Alert ON---
I don't feel it is a personal attack, blunt way of asking questions maybe. The questions are valid though.

OTOH it is a forum and people have the liberty of expressing their thoughts that may or may not be backed with facts. Isn't that the purpose of any forum??

Just my two cents.
---OT-Alert OFF---

[Singh]

Re Admins:-

Somehow it seems that personal attacks By rohitvats on who-so-ever disagrees with his views is ok. why?

Rohit bhai,
Am for one really glad with your post there.
Am getting sick n tired of ppl just accussing the services with made-up-bullshit.
At times even worse than DDM ranting!!!!

[member_22906]

+1

[rohitvats]

Re Admins:-

Somehow it seems that personal attacks By rohitvats on who-so-ever disagrees with his views is ok. why?

Vic, I have edited my post.

However, the questions remain. If you have genuine answers to them, please use them to substantiate your views.

[abrahavt]

I agree completely. Too many arm chair generals on this forum who think they know better than the real generals. They hide behind their computers and make ignorant and unsubstantiated comments about the armed forces. Wish some of them would get off their butts and actually serve for a year or two so that they know what it is like to put your life on the line for your country.

[member_22539]

^^While I agree that we should refrain from beating up on our Armed Forces just because some of us have a whiny attitude, there are instances like the Arjun that are UNFORGIVABLE by any standards. So, I for one am unwilling to treat the Army (in particular) as a holy cow and certainly not some of its generals who appear dirtier by the day with all the corruption allegations (true or false I really don't know).

[rohitvats]

^^While I agree that we should refrain from beating up on our Armed Forces just because some of us have a whiny attitude, there are instances like the Arjun that are UNFORGIVABLE by any standards. So, I for one am unwilling to treat the Army (in particular) as a holy cow and certainly not some of its generals who appear dirtier by the day with all the corruption allegations (true or false I really don't know).

Please feel free to bash the generals and the Services but do ensure that you've concrete reasons for your arguments. The Arjun fiasco cannot be extrapolated in every instance where you 'FEEL' like bashing the Services or Army, in this case. I don't think we are here to discuss and express our 'feelings'....there is a whine thread for that. The idea is to be objective in your assertions and back them up with some research.

[member_22539]

^^Indeed I agree, but neither should we treat it as a holy cow, thats all that I meant.

[vic]

There is systematic attempt to Use abusive language when ever there is any criticism. In fact your post does not have any information except saying - you civilians don't know anything. I have made my post based on data points therein, you are welcome to rebut it.

Improved Pinaka is aiming at range of 60km makes it a threat to future orders of Smerch. This is how Arjun was killed in 1990s Repeatedly failing kraspanol gets orders for 3000 rounds, how much for Nag? Flag waving and patriotism is sometimes last refuge of scoundrels.

[rohitvats]

There is systematic attempt to Use abusive language when ever there is any criticism. In fact your post does not have any information except saying - you civilians don't know anything. I have made my post based on data points therein, you are welcome to rebut it.

Improved Pinaka is aiming at range of 60km makes it a threat to future orders of Smerch. This is how Arjun was killed in 1990s Repeatedly failing kraspanol gets orders for 3000 rounds, how much for Nag?

Flag waving and patriotism is sometimes last refuge of scoundrels.

The above actually applies to you, my dear friend. You're trying to hide your rant and ignorance behind hints of conspiracy theory and how 'Mother India' is being robbed of opportunities by foreign maal loving generals.

You have supplied no data point in your post but the usual rant bereft of any logic or reasoning. And as for the civilian versus army thing..well, what can one say....

First things first - how is a 60kms range system a threat to 90kms range Smerch? Has it occurred to your genius self that may be, IA is looking at 40-60-90 kms kind of arrangement? There are grand total of 3 x Smerch Regiments in the IA - and we have has them since late 2000s. Has there been any indication since that IA is looking for more Smerch units? And is DRDO developing a 60kms version in isolation or, is the same based on requirement and interest of the army?

The fact of the matter is that IA loves Pinaka System. IA has had grand total of 5 x BM-21 GRAD Regiments in its inventory for a long time..this when they came cheap from ex-USSR and army could have populated all the formations with such a system. The reason being that IA was never happy with 'spray-and-pay' aspect of these type of systems. IA warmed up to Pinaka because it offered various warhead and sub-ammunition possibilities. There is more to MBRLs in our case than as a simple area saturation weapon.

Ditto the case for Smerch - it allows the IA to target assets deep from the FEBA with the help of smart munitions. So, by the end of this defense plan, IA will have more Rocket Regiments equipped with Pinaka systems that it had for so many decades.

And in all this debate, care to shed light on one small aspect - HOW IS MOD ENTERING INTO MOU WITH RUSSIA A CONSPIRACY BY THE ARMY?

Bringing in Krasnopol or Arjun in every argument shows your intellectual bankruptcy rather than add anything to debate at hand.

[member_20317]

rohitvats – “HOW IS MOD ENTERING INTO MOU WITH RUSSIA A CONSPIRACY BY THE ARMY?”

Vic ji, you need to pay a little more attention to the money making aspects of the whole enterprise. The perception premium on Mr. Anthony, whether justified or not, is there for a reason. Sad thing about Artillery in Indian context is that it is a cheaper weapon system and logically should have been bulked up. Unfortunately this very reason works for our opponents too. That brings in politicking. Repeated rounds of the same thing are enough of an indication that some active procedural sabotage is being attempted and the news of this sabotage is not getting out for a number of reasons.

People who make money have every intention and capability of hiding their deals in a deluge of paper. Army is not as autonomous as it is made out to be.


rohitvats ji, about the “40-60-90 kms kind of arrangement”. I had heard of a BM21 range extension or upgrade being held out as an option. Does that mean no rockets in 20 km range. What would be your take on such shorter ranged rockets.

[vic]

So you are not happy with Kraspanol, Arjun, Nag? Then what about Adarsh, TATRA, Air defense Gun, 120mm mortars, anti material guns? You attack any criticism of imports as rants & whinning, and refuse to deal with specifics. Yes, I cannot produce a stamped affidavit of Army Chief that bribes are involved but that does not mean open source facts cannot be discusssed. Army doctrine always changes to like imported products. Down with Smerch and Prahaar jindabad!

Flag waving=scoundrel theory only applies to you, as you are the one trying to stifle debate by name calling. You are one saying that we cannot debate evident attraction to imports as Army Brass knows all.

[Surya]

vic


Has rohit not jumped on the Army for Arjun -

So if there was a case of corruption for Smersh why would he not jump on it??

except most of us feel there isn't - and for now Pinaka and Smersh are not in same category

now you may want to extrapolate Tatra to everything but some of prefer to be more nuanced.

at same time you cannot expect to go unchallenged.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> rohitvats ji, about the “40-60-90 kms kind of arrangement”. I had heard of a BM21 range extension or upgrade being held out as an option. Does that mean no rockets in 20 km range. What would be your take on such shorter ranged rockets.

You can drop the 'ji' part...rohitvats is quite all right.

Coming to the Rocket Regiments...well, I've head news of DRDO having enhanced the range of BM-21 system with new rockets which brings them into 30+kms range category. As I said before, I don't think IA is big fan of this short-range system (though, I am for sheer bad-ass value)...and the same is evident from the fact that IA never attempted (AFAIK) to increase the number of BM-21 in service.

From what I believe, IA does not see MBRL systems as a means to break up massed infantry attacks with very heavy volume of fire...IMO, it sees them as force multipliers to hit deep in the rear with smart munitions which give maximum bang for the buck. However, we did see the video of GRAD System mounted on TATA Vehicles...I hope we see 1 x regiment per division...but that is just a wet dream of a jingo

[rohitvats]

So you are not happy with Kraspanol, Arjun, Nag? Then what about Adarsh, TATRA, Air defense Gun, 120mm mortars, anti material guns? You attack any criticism of imports as rants & whinning, and refuse to deal with specifics. Yes, I cannot produce a stamped affidavit of Army Chief that bribes are involved but that does not mean open source facts cannot be discusssed. Army doctrine always changes to like imported products. Down with Smerch and Prahaar jindabad!

Flag waving=scoundrel theory only applies to you, as you are the one trying to stifle debate by name calling. You are one saying that we cannot debate evident attraction to imports as Army Brass knows all.

Please point out one post of mine where I have 'attacked' criticism of imports for the heck of it? Did you see any such 'attack' when you posted excerpts from the CAG Report about the AD Gun? And you know why - because prime facie, there was a case of army nnot knowing what it wanted and wasting exchequers money.

Dude, unlike you, I don't live in a single dimension...there are many things wrong with Indian defense management system (including procurement) and IA/Services have their fair share of blame. But that does not mean you put every thing that ails the domestic MIC at their doorstep. Sorry, but no can do. If I can thrash arguments against Arjun with facts and logic, I can do that against unnecessary and flippant remarks against services...and I will do that.

All you do is post 'hand wave' kind of arguments? How is Arjun or Krasnopol episode relevant to discussion about Pinaka and an MOU signed by MOD for Smerch rockets? The funny thing is -the deal is for rockets and not the system...that rockets for the system will be made by OFB for 3 x Smerch Regiments that we have. So, how is that a threat for Pinaka? Or, are you saying that we should have continued to import rockets for Smerch from Russia and this arrangement some how would have not threatened the Pinaka System?

Are you even sure you know what you're talking about?

[John]

Prahaar way more effective than Smerch is getting no orders. Pinaka is going through the same troubles as Arjun vs T-90, Nag trials compared to easy love for Kraspanol etc.

Not sure how you can compare it to Smerch considering latter is 300 mm missile vs 420 mm missile completly different classes' if we had developed something like Astros III i would have agreed with you.

Fact that it is been more than a year and we have yet to see more tests of Prahaar indicates DRDO has run into issues or once again moving in its snail pace, i don't know how IA or any service would order a missile which was tested once. Even Brahmos which was based on proven Russian missile didn't get order from the Navy (India and Russia) only years after the initial tests.

[Karan M]

Fact that it is been more than a year and we have yet to see more tests of Prahaar indicates DRDO has run into issues or once again moving in its snail pace, i don't know how IA or any service would order a missile which was tested once. Even Brahmos which was based on proven Russian missile didn't get order from the Navy (India and Russia) only years after the initial tests.

It would help if you actually did some research on the procurement process or the genesis of the Prahaar.

First, lets take the technical aspect. Prahaar is basically a repackaged AAD, a missile which has been tested several times as part of Program AD and as such is fairly mature. To the extent that the BMD-Phase 1 program can now be set up. Per se, the missile works and works well.

So your speculation that either DRDO has run into difficulties with the missile or that it is moving at a snail's pace thanks to developer issues is wrong.

Second, as regards program status and further testing of Prahaar, the status is that the Army is yet to announce a formal intent for Prahaar.

Only after a LOI is issued, with clear expectations set, can DRDO formally work on making the Prahaar into what the Army wants.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/pr ... uring.html

As of now, we are waiting for a Letter of Intent (LoI) from the Army,” sources said.
Once the Army gives the LoI, the missile will have to undergo 10-12 trials to fine tune its effectiveness with

The way things work, DRDO can do TD (technology development) as they did with the Prahaar demo, but it cannot begin work on a full mission mode project without a firm ASR/GSQR/NSR from the services, with a LOI attached, to develop the system.

In the past, DRDO has developed systems on its own, only to be castigated by the CAG for not following procedures. As matter of fact, even completing "launched" projects which were subsequently dropped by services (e.g. several Army projects where Army changed GSQR and then preferred imports) has been attacked by CAG.

So Prahaar cannot proceed until as a mission-mode project unless the Army places a formal LOI. At best, DRDO can do 1-2 more tests as part of its authorized TD budgetary allocation.

And to issue a formal LOI, IA arty have to figure out how to employ the system, where it will sit in the matrix and then put realistic requirements (the last is usually a big challenge for the IA which tends to cherrypick best of class features from multiple systems). Once that is done, we will see Prahaar go ahead.

Coming to the issue which sparked off this "debate", the rockets for Smerch deal is not directly linked to Prahaar. The Smerch is a potent system but has been saddled with the usual difficulties we face whenever we inducted items from Russia that faced disruption due to Soviet Union breakdown.

Making its critical ammunition locally and indigenizing assemblies (with or without Russian help) is essential to its long term service.

By the way, India had originally sought a license to make the Smerch in India. It was denied while the TOT for T-90S etc went through (of course we later learnt they had held back on gun barrels and armor plate). Its probably a good thing in retrospect since it opened up an opportunity for local development, though now the Russians may well try to swing the deal again.

Right now, theres a Pinaka MK-2 in development with some 50% boost over the original range of 30-40 km, taking the MK-2 to some 60 km. And there is the Prahaar at 150 km, we really don't have a Smerch equivalent system (~90 km or thereabouts). Cost effectiveness is also a key criteria. So could cost effective production of local rockets lead to new Smerch raisings. We don't know that yet.

An important point raised by Rohitvats is where exactly does the Army see these MBRL/rocket and missile regiments fit in.
Even today, the Army is often forced to repackage earlier formations into new ones since it has a tough time asking for and getting new authorizations for new formations/raisings. While new raisings can be done by taking experienced soldiers from earlier formations, you do need an overall cap increase.

Which is probably one of the reasons, the Army has been trying to focus on getting its guntube artillery fixed as well, and not just trade one for the other (by changing units from Guntubes to MBRLs) since each has its specific pros and cons.

[John]

It would help if you actually did some research on the procurement process or the genesis of the Prahaar.

First, lets take the technical aspect. Prahaar is basically a repackaged AAD, a missile which has been tested several times as part of Program AD and as such is fairly mature. To the extent that the BMD-Phase 1 program can now be set up. Per se, the missile works and works well.

I am well aware of Prahaar being repackaged AAD that doesn't mean it doesn't require any testing to prove missile works well since they used for completely different purpose and not to mention the components will be different , for example RAM which was repackaged Stinger went thru countless test fires before being funded by USN. True the project may be fine but for some one looking from outside lack of news always equates a project that is in peril. Communication is key.

The way things work, DRDO can do TD (technology development) as they did with the Prahaar demo, but it cannot begin work on a full mission mode project without a firm ASR/GSQR/NSR from the services, with a LOI attached, to develop the system.

Still DRDO needs to take initiative and push for more testing rather than just sit around waiting for Army to support a product almost immediately, we have seen numerous defense gov & private companies develop products on their own and aggressively push the products for years. Even NPO tested Onyk and funded the missile development on its own money, if NPO had simply abandoned testing do you think we would have ever funded Brahmos?

[Karan M]

I am well aware of Prahaar being repackaged AAD that doesn't mean it doesn't require any testing to prove missile works well since they used for completely different purpose and not to mention the components will be different , for example RAM which was repackaged Stinger went thru countless test fires before being funded by USN. True the project may be fine but for some one looking from outside lack of news always equates a project that is in peril. Communication is key.

The basic point is that this is a land deployed system whose basic configuration has been tested and validated. Hence technology challenges will not be as major as in a complete ab-initio development such as those faced by Astra where the entire airframe was redesigned. Next, the RAM example does not hold up exactly as it would have involved navalization, which is a huge stumbling block for most land/air based systems which face huge issues when it comes to packaging, stabilization, corrosion etc. leading to many systems having to be redeveloped or requalified.

They do plan 10-12 tests to optimize the current design to a final version, with all the new munitions etc. But the base missile configuration (aero/structure/propulsion/guidance) is fairly proven.
If they were developing an all new time, cost, possible challenges would have been far more.

True the project may be fine but for some one looking from outside lack of news always equates a project that is in peril. Communication is key.

Which leads to the other accusation that the organization is boasting. Its pretty interesting to see the dynamic in India. If PSUs or DRDO release regular updates, they are often attacked for blowing their own trumpet, which is often laid at the doorstep of their heads. Take the number of ad hominem attacks against Saraswat for instance.

While better communications will help, the fact is that a combination of immature media plus vested interests will seek to spin any news as a danger. The average Indian online still goes hysterical if one missile fails..and out come reports from Joshi et al as to how everything Indian is bad etc

Without a proper PR support, it does seem DRDO is just focusing on the basics - get the product right, test, validate, get buy-in, then publicize. Lessens the hype, and also the attacks on the programs thereafter if they face challenges.

Still DRDO needs to take initiative and push for more testing rather than just sit around waiting for Army to support a product almost immediately, we have seen numerous defense gov & private companies develop products on their own and aggressively push the products for years. Even NPO tested Onyk and funded the missile development on its own money, if NPO had simply abandoned testing do you think we would have ever funded Brahmos?

Being Govt funded, they have to follow rigorous rules which are enforced by oft brainless or rigid auditors. Take the recent fracas over DRDO funding a Hyderabad institute for radar technology research. One of the grounds the auditor objected on the grounds that since LRDE existed, there was no need to do so.

That public-private-academia collaboration is part and parcel of development was not considered.

Net, they will work on such programs, but they have had bad experiences in the past where they developed items and the Army did not take them, and resulted in tons of free publicity of the worst kind from CAG.

In such a clime, they will go by the path expected of them.
Even in the private sector though, its rare to develop a completely abinitio product of this cost level, without a firm LOI or customer interest. You need to at least have comparable systems which you can target/replace.

[Ravi Karumanchiri]

Interesting diversion from the ongoing discussion......

Behold a company of Canadians firing the BAE Systems M-777 (at the Taliban). Premium kit, soon to be inducted by India.
Pull out your stopwatch, click play and keep count.