MRCA News and Discussion

kit · Post by **kit** » 24 Jul 2010 18:00

Politics and Business is alike .. i wont be surprised if GOI decides on an american bird despite all about EUMA et all !

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 24 Jul 2010 20:09

British PM to push for EF on India visit..

Defence deals are on top of the agenda as British Prime Minister David Cameron visits India next week, more so because of Britain slashing defence spending and looking for increased exports.

British Trade and Industry spokesman Adam Thomas said at the air show: “We see huge opportunities from emerging markets. We have a global market share of close to 20 percent and we have been bringing delegates from as many countries as possible to Farnborough.”

Cameron will have in mind the fact that one of the competitors for the MMRCA deal is the Eurotyphoon fighter, manufactured by EADS, a consortium of which BAE is a partner.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 01307.html

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 25 Jul 2010 02:53

Suddenly after 1947, the brits discovered India again!

can anyone say if silent eagle has better RCS than Super hornet?

johnny_m wrote:The F 15 later variants are still better than the Typhoon in many aspects including A2G. In fact one could argue that in the current global climate strike missions take precedence, which may be the reason why the Saudis are going for more F 15s now. They have so much money and can order more Typhoons in the future if they want.

Other than cheaper bombs, I don't see how it is much better! Unless u can tell us, brother!
There were also reports that they were pursuing the follow-on order for typhhoons! If it goes through, typhoons has better a chance at MMRCA! but the down side is Pak would get to study the aircraft closely!

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 25 Jul 2010 03:24

shukla wrote:British PM to push for EF on India visit..

they are sending the wrong guy to push for it.

ideally it should be the german PM.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 25 Jul 2010 15:06

Beautiful A2A Shots of the Gripen

Gripen NG & Meteor

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 15:28

Austin wrote:Shiv i remember reading the interview of designer of Russian Zvezda bureau long time back ,where he claimed the ejection mechanism of K-36 were microprocessor controlled and the seat would just fly away ( some kind of intelligent controlled trajectory/program built in ) from the falling aircraft no matter the speed or altitude of the aircraft and would keep the pilots away from falling on the fireball.

Austin the K 36 is supposed to be a great seat - but is Russki sales pitch to claim that it can save anyone any time. The laws of physics state that this will be impossible in certain types of eject situations..

In fact those pictures of the crashing F-18 tell me that the pilot has not just been lucky - he has shown great skill an timing

That plane is rolling. The seat has ejected him up out of the cockpit and in the split second after that the aircraft has already rolled bit and the cockpit is oriented 90 degrees to the vertical. But the seat itself is already going sideways and up - luckily for the pilot. Another split second later the plane would have rolled into the "cockpit pointing down" direction at which time the ejection would have fired the pilot towards the ground and not given the chute enough altitude to open, killing the pilot.

So even the K 36 would not save anyone if he had to eject from an upside down plane that is very low above the ground.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 21:03

I think a similar scenario happened with an F-14 approaching a carrier in the early 90s, the co pilot ejected early, but the pilot ejected headfirst into the water and was killed instantly.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jul 2010 21:10

^ Shiv ji Russian pilots have been involved in violent accidents and ejected safely from a even lower altitudes.

The fore section was completely sheared both pilots survived. (2:52 onwards)

This from extremely altitude with AC pointing nose down pilot survived.

[youtube]FlSXQ2M2LBw&feature=related[/youtube]

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2010 22:14

Shiv I agree it could be a sales pitch but that came from Zvezda Chief who made that claim.

But looking at the success rate of K-36 , the ejection seat seems more reliable than the plane.

Negi that Mig-29 crash is the one thats etched in my mind another one is the MKI low level crash at Paris.

Note the MKI is almost upside down when the pilot ejects at at low level altitude perhaps few 10 meters but the ejection seat just moves in the opposite direction avoiding a direct hot on ground while ejecting , perhaps that proves the Zvezda chief claim

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 26 Jul 2010 02:27

Vishal Jolapara wrote:SAAB Gripen NG

Not sure if this is the correct thread to post this photo in but, in the background are 6 PAF F-16's parked at Lajes enroute Red Flag 2010 - July 14, 2010.

Thanks for finding these pictures and posting them. I didn't realize that the pukis went to red flag until now.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Jul 2010 07:00

To all those allaying fears about CSMOA and LSA agreement with the US, fear NOT, the DESI LAWYERS are the ones writing up the agreement on behalf of the SHERKHAN!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2010 07:37

Austin wrote: Note the MKI is almost upside down

No saar it is not upside down. It is banked to the left - 90 degrees or less.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2010 07:43

negi wrote:^ Shiv ji Russian pilots have been involved in violent accidents and ejected safely from a even lower altitudes.

Negi garu all parachutes require a minimum altitude to billow and fill with air. Anything less than that is dangerous. So, although it is possible to eject safely from zero altitude that is dependent entirely on the rocket motor carrying the seat up to a required altitude (maybe as little as 50 feet) so the chute can fill with air and slow the descent.

When an aircraft is at (say) 50 feet high and upside down the seat gets fired straight down. The pilot is toast.

Another dangerous situation a plane that is accelerating down and the pilot ejects very low . If the downward acceleration is so high that it counters the upward acceleration of the seat - the seat may fail to gain the required altitude and the pilot may have injuries

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2010 08:25

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote: Note the MKI is almost upside down
No saar it is not upside down. It is banked to the left - 90 degrees or less.

Shiv it appears when the pilots eject atleast the first at 0:47 its upside down at the same time the aircraft is flying and then banks left 90* in the next 2 seconds , but during ejection it appears to be it almost upside down.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 26 Jul 2010 09:56

Luxtor wrote:Thanks for finding these pictures and posting them. I didn't realize that the pukis went to red flag until now.

You're welcome, more here ► http://nycaviation.com/forum/las-vegas- ... 20059.html

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 26 Jul 2010 10:24

^^^^^
Posting Paki forum links is an absolute no no. BR should not be used to give them traffic.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 26 Jul 2010 12:23

^ Sure thing Neeraj

Wasnt aware of any such rules

Anyways, one can just google Red Flag 2010

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2010 12:45

Russia's MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements - arms exporter

"The requirements of the tender are quite rigid, but we have already held three evaluation tests, and we believe we have offered an aircraft which entirely corresponds to the tender requirements," Kornyev said.

Russia's Mig-35 Fulcrum-F is a highly maneuverable single seat multirole air superiority fighter, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F).The plane was first officially presented during the Aero India 2007 air show.

"Of course, the buyers will make the final decision. We are sure that we will participate in this tender until the end, and we hope we will win," Kornyev added.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 26 Jul 2010 14:26

My view is that the American pitch is very strong and the F/A-18SH is likely to win. Finally the politics is going to choose the fighter. So, here is my analysis http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... angle.html
All the latest news reports suggest that IAF evaluation on the 6 MMRCA competitor will be out soon with the deal being signed within a year after that. One competitor out 4 short listed fighters will be selected for the contract. Now we all know that ultimately the decision will be taken with politics in mind. PM Manmohan Singh himself once said in pretext to MMRCA that the winner of the contract will be the one who's country will have maximum to offer. This really does puts out Gripen's chances to win the contract considering the fact that Sweden doesn't have anything to offer to India apart from the fighter itself.
The Congress Party of India wants India to be a permanent member of UNSC which will give it a serious advantage over its political rivals in the country. All members of UNSC support India for this except the USA and China. Communist China with its egoistic ambition will never support India. Russia has been a long standing supporter of India in all matters and India definitely wants to hold on to this and hence there was report which suggested that India will try to please Russia but its unlikely to give a order of 126 fighter jets to Russia's MiG-35. But it will buy a smaller number (50-60) of these jets to maintain IAF's numbers and make Russia happy. Same goes with France which India has some level of dislike for its military supplies to Pakistan. French competitor, the Rafael is closely matched with American F/A-18SH but it is more expensive than it. France it likely to receive $2.5 Billion* contract to upgrade IAF's Mirage-2000's, this offer was selected over Israel's cheaper offer. India also used this offer to end Pakistan's efforts to acquire similar systems from France for its JF-17 fighter aircraft.
The other aircraft along with Sweden's Gripen that has very less political attraction is Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon. Its extremely expensive and its sponsor countries are no longer inclined to buy it which mean that it will remain very expensive. Plus UK its primary backer will not withdraw its support for UNSC seat even if its Typhoon is not selected. That now leave just the F-16IN and F/A-18 SH both of which are of American origin. USA has long not supported India for the permanent seat but the relations are improving everyday. US sees India as a important ally in Af-Pak situation and against the Chinese and so does India. Multiple contracts were given to USA and USA was the one which got India into the NSG. American stance on the UNSC seat is also changing dramatically with positive comments from American diplomats and envoys. Hence India will try hard to please America by giving the contract to American competitors mostly Boeing's F/A-18 SH instead of the F-16 which is already in PAF's inventory. Hence I conclude that F/A-18SH is the strongest contender to win the contract.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jul 2010 18:11

Shiv ji there is no argument about points you make about the scenario where seat ejection altitude is too and little forward speed for parachute to get deployed or the case the AC is inverted. I don't think even Zvezda bureau have/will make such claims.

Those videos however do show that even in early 90's Zvezda seats had some form of intelligence which enabled them to orient the seat upwards soon after the ejection over a wide ejection envelope (don't know if Austin was pointing to this). The second video shows ejection below an altitude of 100ft with AC descending rapidly nose down.

To be fair to Zvezda they can claim to be more TFTA than anyone in this business.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/eject.htm

Engineers and scientists from the Air Force Research Laboratory's (AFRL) Human Effectiveness Directorate and the US Navy's Air and Surface Warfare Centers first evaluated the K-36D ejection seat in 1993 as part of a foreign equipment comparative testing program sponsored by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Tests were conducted using Russian test facilities including a windblast facility, a vertical ejection tower, a rocket-propelled sled, and a MiG-25 aircraft. The K-36D seat was ejected from the rocket sled at speeds as high as 730 KEAS and from the MiG-25 at speeds up to Mach 2.5 and altitudes up to 56,000 ft. Additional tests were then conducted at the Holloman AFB NM sled track to demonstrate performance at low speed and adverse attitudes. This program, which included 17 successive, successful tests, demonstrated that the performance of the K-36D seat at these test conditions was superior to ejection seats used in US aircraft.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jul 2010 20:57

Luxtor wrote:About this CAF F-18 crash... It looks like the pilot was demonstrating a low and slow pass capability, for what reason, I don't know, it doesn't seem to have any practical use in combat for this flight mode. But when he was demonstrating this and he wanted to push the throttle back up to speed up, the two engines didn't respond quickly enough, especially the right engine since the the aircraft banked right just before nose diving. He was at a very high angle of attack too so airflow into the intakes might not have been adequate. It looked like this was an older generation F-18, not the super hornet, so the intakes are smaller and are not slanted. Maybe he thought he could imitate the Su-30MKI and do a Cobra.

In any case, I'm glad he ejected safely.

did you read an accident report or are you just speculating based on 1 picture ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 Jul 2010 23:37

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Jul 2010 12:40

$10 bn combat jet deal eyes strategic 'leverage'

A senior air force officer told Mail Today: "We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment." However, before negotiations on these aspects are addressed, a few steps need to be taken first.

some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer. Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.

The US is definitely at the top of the list when it comes down to strategic leverage. 'The senior IAF officials quote' clearly points to the US...

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jul 2010 12:49

Surely L1 is not the appropriate method for a tender of this nature. It is a method primarily used to avoid corrupt practices and distance favoratism by bribing but projects where quality is of utmost importance surely needs a different appraoch.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 27 Jul 2010 13:39

It's going to be the F-18 guys. The overall goodies that uncle sam can provide cant be matched by anyone else. We should start an F-18 v/s F-16 thread as thats what the superhornets are going to face.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jul 2010 13:51

Well I think L1 and F-18 cant go hand in hand , they need to figure out what they need cheapest aircraft or strategic deals

May be F-16IN as lowest bidder and ENR /Technology Deal could work out ..JMT

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 27 Jul 2010 16:40

"We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment."

of the bidders, both Russia and France can provide these just as well as the US
The EU (UK+Germany with some help from Italy) can also put something together. That leaves the Swedes out of the loop

so, its not a no-brainer that the US will be in the lead

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 27 Jul 2010 16:53

I dont know why, but i have this funny feeling that the f-16 will emerge as the dark horse in this deal- I mean, lets look at it.

the IAF already operates two twin engined platforms in the MKI and the Mig 29.

their original requirement was for more numbers of M2K- a single engined platform.

given that IAF would be looking at life cycle and operation costs, it is safe to assume that the eff-solah will be evaluated very closely by IAF. plus it is the most battle hardened and proven aircrat of the lot, has a very capable AESA radar in the block 60 and In versions and will go a long way in givin IAF good interoperability with Israel AF - yes, dont discount this important strategic aspect for any conflict that India is a part of in the near to mid term future.

surely the fact that Porkis operate them as well will not be a deterrent for IAF- of it were then that means that we are saying that all things being equal, porki pilots are better than ours!!!! that too when the F16 IN is a much superior bird to the block 15 that the porkis currently operate of the block 52s they will be getting.

having said that, i would love to see the EF in Indian colours, once its AESA is up and running.

P.S. my first post at BRF

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 27 Jul 2010 18:20

I remember some news boeing asking for a 40 % more thrust engine(F414
) for export for it's f_Sollah.If that the case , LCA would also have a nice engine.Obviously uncle will have some control over IAF as well.

Cheers

Prabhu.G

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Jul 2010 19:49

Nihat wrote:Surely L1 is not the appropriate method for a tender of this nature. It is a method primarily used to avoid corrupt practices and distance favoratism by bribing but projects where quality is of utmost importance surely needs a different appraoch.

The L1 L2 business could be only to squeeze the OEMs and make the prices more competent and may not decide the winner in the end.

steve · Post by **steve** » 27 Jul 2010 20:07

"We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment."

If that is the case then both F 16 and F 18 are out of the race now itself......... for under the US atomic Energy Law US cannot transfer Enriching and Reprocessing tech to any country. Not even to its closest countries like UK or Israel.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Jul 2010 21:09

prabhug wrote:I remember some news boeing asking for a 40 % more thrust engine(F414
) for export for it's f_Sollah.If that the case , LCA would also have a nice engine.Obviously uncle will have some control over IAF as well.

Cheers

Prabhu.G

Its F_athra, not F_sollah for Boeing. That issue of the F-414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) was discussed here several times earlier.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 27 Jul 2010 21:24

US Air Force to convert F-16s to drones, shoot them downhttp://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/0 ... -them-down
Why would India spend $10 billion and spend millions of dollars testing so many world class aircrafts and then go to 20 year old F16, though its a same old pig with new lipsticks (read AESA, higher-speed mission computer, a new display processor, three large colour LCD displays, advanced data transfer unit with a fibre-optic data transfer network)

Why don't Indians see it as insulting that they are being offered an fighter which is used as a target practice by US Air force ?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 27 Jul 2010 21:39

You are right, India should drop the F-16 from the tender and demand that the US offer the F-22.

Cristina Iliescu · Post by **Cristina Iliescu** » 28 Jul 2010 01:41

Carl_T wrote:You are right, India should drop the F-16 from the tender and demand that the US offer the F-22.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Jul 2010 05:39

steve wrote:
"We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment."
If that is the case then both F 16 and F 18 are out of the race now itself......... for under the US atomic Energy Law US cannot transfer Enriching and Reprocessing tech to any country. Not even to its closest countries like UK or Israel.

Thats the point matey.. try and use leverage from this deal to see what we can get and from who...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Jul 2010 05:50

David Cameron's push for the MMRCA deal.. seeks 'holistic' ties..

Business standard reports..
Towards a holistic relationship

The 126-fighter jet deal has political overtones and cameron is likely to push its case strongly with the Indian leadership. British prime minister David Cameron will miss Myanmar’s military ruler Than Shwe by a mere day during his visit to India, but both leaders have weapons on their minds: Trials for India’s 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, worth $12 billion, concluded earlier this month, and it is said the news is “good” for the Eurofighter Typhoon

more speculation that the EF did well in the trials..

In these testing times of recession, the award of the 126-fighter jet deal to any of these countries will not only significantly bump up its bottom line, it will also effectively send out a signal to the nation on which India wants to bestow her affection. That is why this deal has strong political overtones — and Cameron is unlikely to lose an opportunity to push its case with the Indian leadership.

With Britain likely to post a mere 2.6 per cent growth rate this year, Cameron knows he’s got to kick-start the economy. Britain must live up to its reputation of being the world’s biggest shop-keeper by not only finding more creative ways of pursuing trade and inward investment, but also reorient foreign policy tools such as international aid.

British diplomats admit that British companies are willing to supply the full range of components that make up a nuclear plant, short of the nuclear reactor itself, such as turbines which go into the French Areva reactors; an MOU with L&T was signed in February for the manufacture of these turbines.

The message, said a well-placed British source, is that the UK is “much more open and communicative to India” after the passage of the India nuclear deal through the Nuclear Suppliers Group in 2008.

The British source pointed out that Cameron’s UK is focussed on areas like education, climate change and defence ties. India and the UK already have as many as 400 tie-ups in higher education, including the training of faculty, joint programmes and the building of research bases. “We are interested in educating India’s youth bulge, as it were,” he sa

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Jul 2010 08:46

Rajiv Gandhi (or was it IG) went ahead with the Westland helo deal that was much trumpted about in the yester years., the helo s ended up non serviceable rust buckets, later came the much vaunted Hawk deal , again with much fan fare about "TOT" till HAL started making complaints of how they were short changed on the TOT ! misplaced manuals, jigs .. and now another mega deal.. which is likely to go in a similar way !

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jul 2010 10:21

It was IG and on insistence of Mrs Tatcher , Congress made good money from kickbacks on that deal while most of chopper rusted and still does at Pawan Hans airport at Mumbai almost a daily sight for me.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jul 2010 11:56

So the US is planning to use its old F-16s as drones.Over a year ago,I suggested (ridiculed by some),that we convert many of our old aircraft like Gnats/Ajeets.MIG-21s,etc., into UCAVs,or even in a "kamikaze" role,as the Israelis were doing the same with old Chetak/All-3 naval helos,converting them into UCAVs to operate from our warships.This would give us an immediate large inventory of usable aircraft instead of "reinventing the wheel",designing a new flying machine that will take several yars to develop and arrive too late in the day.In a recent edition of VAYU,there was a beautiful pic of an HF-24 in a German museum,specially sent there upon the request of Dr.Kurt Tank's widow.The aircrft would hold its own with,many of the ones flying today if only it had more powerful engines.For stealth,radar absorbing paints could be used.This would be a very cost-effective way in which we could acquire a large number of force multipliers.I suppose that now that the US is going to do this with the F-16,we will follow their cue...hopefully!

As for the MMRCA deal,the major factor is now likely to be the political pressure that bears upon the GOI.There is going to be a huge tussle between the Europeans-combined forces, and the US.The Russians will of course play their role stealthily behind the scenes,as so many of our defence projects have Russian cooperation without which would be impossible for them to succeed.I have no doubt that the F-16 will be trashed first as it is inconceivable that the IAF would want to fly the same aircraft used by the enemy,which can always acquire countermeasures from the US.The Typhoon may be state of the art,but at what price? I feel that it is going to be the costliest of the lot and as we are already acquiring about 300 advanced Flankers,plus the 5th-gen fighter,our money could be better spent on another bird.It stands a chance only if it is close to the F-18SH's price.

To me the winner will most probably be one of these three,Gripen,MIG-35 and F-18.Russia simply cannot be ignored for obvious reasons.We may as is now being hinted buy some more Fulcrums (35s) to add to the upgraded MIG-29s,perhaps 40-60,but them there would be less money to go around for the final choice,which is where price factors in v.seriously.Make no mistake,price is the third key factor in the three "Cs" which will determine the winner, "capability,cost and clout",clout being the political pressure.There is also a fourth "C" that always remains beneath the surface,often called "commission"!
The colossal waste of money over the Commonwealth Games fiasco is demanding an accountability and redirection where the nation's funds are sent,especially in the days of rampant price increases and inflation and the spectre of the Naxal crisis,where the underpriviliged have been left out of the great Indian growth game,which is only now being studied with a view to redressing such greivances and reviewing national priorities.There are many other foreign defence acquisitions on the cards (transports,artillery,subs,missiles,etc.) as we are to spend upto $50 billion,perhaps even more,with those orders also demanding large funding.