Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jul 2010 19:36

More spy vs spy rants from Ahmed Quraishi:

http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=3506

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jul 2010 19:39

why is there a fan in that room? the air-con doesn't work?

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Jul 2010 19:48

X Posted from the “Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism” thread

Looks like the the Karzai administrations overtures to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is over and it is back to Afghanistan calling the spade of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s fomenting terrorism in Afghanistan, a spade.

Afghanistan’s National Security Adviser Dafdar Rangin Spanta:

Afghanistan urges Pakistan to target terror groups

By Lynne O'Donnell (AFP) – 8 hours ago ...............................

Spanta told AFP on Monday that Afghanistan had "tremendous evidence" that Pakistani authorities allowed Al-Qaeda and other terror organisations to operate on the country's soil and had presented it to Islamabad "many times".

Islamabad had failed to act against the groups based in Pakistan's tribal areas on the Afghan border, he told AFP.

"My expectation is that Pakistan after nine years -- because theoretically Pakistan is part of the anti-terror alliance -- they have to begin to take some serious measures against terrorism," he said.

"They have to hand over the leadership of the terrorist groups, they have to give a list of the people they have arrested and are holding in the detention centres in Pakistan.

"We have evidence that the terrorists from Pakistan are involved in daily attacks against our people and international 'jihadi' groups are active here. They have their base and sanctuaries behind our border and this is a serious problem.

"We have to address the menace of terrorism," Spanta said..........................

"It is not a particular secret that the terrorists have sanctuaries in Pakistan, that they have training centres, that they have the possibility to come to Afghanistan, attack us and go back," said Spanta.

Read it all:

AFP via Google

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 06 Jul 2010 19:49

I wanted to share my thoughts on ajit_tr ji's posting positive news on pakistan and the reactions from some senior members on the forum. I dont agree with the some members who said that this thread is only to post terror related news from pakistan. I was always under the impression that we could post what ever news that is relevant to pakistan on this thread. Except the comical ones which go to the bojitiv thread so that we keep this one focussed on serious discussion.

First thing we should realize is that nothing in the world is black & white in between black and white there are least minimum 254 shades of gray which are used to paint a picture. If we start filling color into the picture then the multiply the B&W image by three and if you want to potray a motion picture (chain of events) then multiply by 20 frames for every second of footage. Now if you want 3D the number goes up. If you want high definition the number goes up again. (sorry for OT but wanted to paint a picture of how complex things can get). So painting pakistan as just a bad lands is depriving ourselves of the reality. If we decide to ignore part of picture we are only harming ourselves and our ability to make informed choices.

So I would support ajit_tr ji in posting positive news. If there is another thread specifically for that ( no pun please I know about bojitiv thread and love it) we can use it. The idea should always be to be fully informed of all facts and not look at things with blinkers on. Same applies to WKK though I do not necessarily agree with them I feel most WKK's have met more pakis individually than all of us BRFites combined so they have a valid comment on the subject it necessarily might not be correct but it is still valid since there is some degree of effort that has been put into it.

Again we need to realize that deaf & dumb forum is not the pulse of pakistan. Most people are expats of half assed cab drivers and mullas who are in west only thanks to sheer good luck or petro dollars. Since these people do not really deserve to be in the countries they are in. They tend to be thankless to their hosts and always conspiring against the hand that feeds them. Most educated pakis I have met at my workplace and I admit here really handful have been pretty Ok folks nothing good or bad about them. Except they tend to wear their religion always on their sleeves so at drop of hat will mention their religious guidelines to any one they are talking to. Other than that except for a big US flag pinned in their cube they are pretty much like any SDRE rather more crazy about movies and cricket than least me.

As some one pointed just now most of these paki expats want to move to malaysia indonesia turkey or timbaktoo but never in their wild dream they want to move to paki lands. But these are the 1st people to say nuke india and get nuked to resident pakis to protect their H&D

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 06 Jul 2010 19:50

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=249195

KARACHI: Pakistan’s cricket chief Ijaz Butt returned home from Singapore after attending an important International Crickt Council (ICC) moot where the issue of resuming bilateral Pakistan-India series came under serious discussion.

Sources said on Monday that Butt had a detailed meeting with ICC’s new president Sharad Pawar in Singapore and managed to garner his support for the revival of Pakistan-India series ‘as soon as possible’.

“It was agreed between Butt and Pawar that all out efforts will be made to revive the Pakistan-India series as soon as possible,” a well-placed source told ‘The News’. According to sources, Pawar’s support is a direct result of a compromise reached between the cricket boards of Pakistan and India over the issue of John Howard’s nomination for ICC vice-president. (How Pawar can do this without node from PM , did he really do it or is it just an as*hole speaking) Pakistan sided with the Asian bloc led by India by voting against the former Australian prime minister.

“Now that Pakistan has done it’s side of the deal, the Indians will have to agree to a bilateral series against Pakistan sooner than later,” said the source. However, it is highly unlikely that the series will take place any time this year since both Pakistan and India are tied up with too many international commitments.

“It is expected that the series will be held on neutral soil after April next year,” said the source. As ICC president Pawar, who has a lot of clout in India, has also promised Butt that he will help revive international cricket in Pakistan.

Pakistan have not hosted any international matches since March 2009 when Sri Lankan cricketers came under a terrorist attack in Lahore. Pawar has also promised to ensure that Pakistan’s Twenty20 champions are allowed to feature in the 2011 Champions League. Pakistan were not invited for the inaugural Champions League last year and were also kept out of this year’s spectacle in South Africa.

prediction of cRams coming true?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jul 2010 19:54

chaanakya wrote:http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=249195

KARACHI: Pakistan’s cricket chief Ijaz Butt returned home from Singapore after attending an important International Crickt Council (ICC) moot where the issue of resuming bilateral Pakistan-India series came under serious discussion.

Sources said on Monday that Butt had a detailed meeting with ICC’s new president Sharad Pawar in Singapore and managed to garner his support for the revival of Pakistan-India series ‘as soon as possible’.

“It was agreed between Butt and Pawar that all out efforts will be made to revive the Pakistan-India series as soon as possible,” a well-placed source told ‘The News’. According to sources, Pawar’s support is a direct result of a compromise reached between the cricket boards of Pakistan and India over the issue of John Howard’s nomination for ICC vice-president. (How Pawar can do this without node from PM , did he really do it or is it just an as*hole speaking) Pakistan sided with the Asian bloc led by India by voting against the former Australian prime minister.

“Now that Pakistan has done it’s side of the deal, the Indians will have to agree to a bilateral series against Pakistan sooner than later,” said the source. However, it is highly unlikely that the series will take place any time this year since both Pakistan and India are tied up with too many international commitments.

“It is expected that the series will be held on neutral soil after April next year,” said the source. As ICC president Pawar, who has a lot of clout in India, has also promised Butt that he will help revive international cricket in Pakistan.

Pakistan have not hosted any international matches since March 2009 when Sri Lankan cricketers came under a terrorist attack in Lahore. Pawar has also promised to ensure that Pakistan’s Twenty20 champions are allowed to feature in the 2011 Champions League. Pakistan were not invited for the inaugural Champions League last year and were also kept out of this year’s spectacle in South Africa.
prediction of cRams coming true?

The new president is digging a rather large grave for himself.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Jul 2010 19:56

Suppiah wrote:Has Chankyanism worked? Tall mountain going slow on nuke deal to the pukes...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 135167.cms

I wonder, what does China have to gain from this deal?
I think their main purpose out of this was to embarrass the US and the western nations and to prove that the NSG was impotent, and that they wanted to do an = = with the US, so that they are elevated to the same stratosphere as the US.

That having been done, I really wonder what are the chinese aiming to get out of building two civilian reactors and that too under IAEA supervision and 100% financed by china?
Pakistan is already running up a huge debt with China. These reactors don't proliferate to Pakistan and beyond. Pakistan can't ever hope to pay for these two even. Even without building these two reactors Pak-cheeni dosti will be tarrel than mountains and deepel than oceans.

Unless pakistan has finally infected the chinese with their jihad virus, and xinjiang is boiling and the Pakistanis have the keys to that. The more the Chinese get involved with the Pakistanis, the more dependence that they create within Pakistan (Like the Gawadar-western China road/rail link) the more china will be susceptible to Pakistan's shenigians.

India objecting to this is along these lines. It is really funny to see pakistan fighting and defending a crummy two 650 MW reactor plan. Compare this with the nearly two dozen, much larger reactors planned and building in India in addition to the already existing two dozen odd reactors.

This really is sage advise for the Chinese. Limit involvement and exchanges with Pakistan. Keep the involvement to the extent that the ISI keeps the jihadis out of Xinjiang. Any more interaction can be bad for China's health.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Jul 2010 19:56

Kamran Shafi in The Dawn
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... g-coup-670

What sort of beast is this whose hunger for innocent blood is seemingly insatiable? Who unthinkingly blows himself up taking tens of innocent bystanders with him? What sort of twisted thinking do his handlers and exploiters have that they are so empty of even an iota of kindness and compassion that they cause the killing and maiming of fathers and sons, brothers and husbands, mothers and daughters, sisters and wives of other human beings?

And then we are told that they should be brought to the negotiating table. Are these the sort of people who will listen to reason? Is this beast to be trusted, especially when you speak to him from a position of confirmed weakness? To negotiate what? The terms of surrender of the state? How much more harm must come to the people of Pakistan before those who matter realise that what is going on is a planned takeover of the state by the barbarians?

Note that Indians could equally well ask the same questions about the powers-that-be in Pakistan, namely, "What sort of beast is this whose hunger for innocent blood is seemingly insatiable?" and "And then we are told that they should be brought to the negotiating table. Are these the sort of people who will listen to reason?"

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 Jul 2010 19:58

A_Gupta wrote:
Jaspreet wrote:
Otherwise any newbie who comes here will see nothing but fanaticism, or Hindutva, or jingoism or all three depending upon what they want to see.
+1
+1
+1
+1
....

Those who have an open mind, who are ready to read and observe, just the first post of this thread is enough material. But those who deliberately want to push an agenda, will ignore all of it and label it under "every country has its problems, even India has them". Make a thousand focused threads for them, they won't see what they don't want to.
And what is this crap about Hindutva people come up with from time to time? where is Hindutva in TSP thread?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Jul 2010 20:02

Pakistanis arrested in Zimbabwe said not be terrorists.
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 53250.html

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Jul 2010 20:03

archan wrote: And what is this crap about Hindutva people come up with from time to time? where is Hindutva in TSP thread?

Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 Jul 2010 20:07

A_Gupta wrote:
archan wrote: And what is this crap about Hindutva people come up with from time to time? where is Hindutva in TSP thread?
Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.

Not too long ago I was what you call "general public". No one introduced me to BRF and back then we used to have threads like Islamism. BRF neither turned me into a Hindutvawadi, nor into a Muslim hater. We are not born BRFites you see. One who is open is open, one who is not will find excuses. Anyway, we will need to move this discussion elsewhere, a temporary thread perhaps.

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 06 Jul 2010 20:48

-- moving to Af-Pak thread for relevance --

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2010 20:49

A_Gupta wrote:
archan wrote: And what is this crap about Hindutva people come up with from time to time? where is Hindutva in TSP thread?
Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.

If a 'general public person' from India feels repelled at BRF for whatever reason, he/she should be sent to the deaf and dumb forum. There you see, either a mushroom cloud or some Hindu child's body parts flowing in all directions or Pakistan's flags flying on the Red Fort on every single page. And of course there is then the language used on that forum, which is certainly not Lakhnawi Urdu! May be the 'general public person' can then appreciate the civility on BRF.

As far as I know,
there are NO mushroom clouds drawn on BRF,
there are NO Pakistani body parts flying in all four directions on BRF,
and if there are any Indian Flags flying in Karachi or Gwadar, they have been put there by Pakistanis themselves.

If the 'general public person' wants to know why BRF is BRF, there are threads on Terrorism

a) List of victims of Terrorist attacks in India
b) Mumbai Terrorist Attack-News stories and timeline
c) Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010
d) Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism
e) The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

There are threads on History

f) A look back at the partition
g) Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story
h) Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah
i) Pakiban- Origins, Composition, Tactics and Leadership
j) ISI-History and Discussions
k) Pashtun Civil War

There are threads on Pakistani Attitude towards others

l) Oppression of minorities in Pakistan
m) Baluchistan: The Story of Another Pakistan Military Genocide

There are threads on how India deals with Pakistan

n) Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh
o) S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?
p) A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest
q) Managing Pakistan's failure

There are threads on the bositive side of Pakistan

r) Bakistan: Emirate of New-clear Inquilabi States-Bojitiv Newj

and then there are 100,000 versions of TSP Thread with 40 x 72 x 100,000 posts on Pakistaniyat!

My suggestion is to have 'A short primer on Pakistan' attached on every TSP Thread First Post, perhaps in pdf format. And another 'List of Pakistan-related Acronyms'. Those who are open and eager, for them this would suffice. One can have further links at the start of the TSP page, as is the case now, which provides some further reading suggestions. More threads are an overkill!

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 06 Jul 2010 21:05

chaanakya wrote:http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=249195

“It was agreed between Butt and Pawar that all out efforts will be made to revive the Pakistan-India series as soon as possible,” a well-placed source told ‘The News’. According to sources, Pawar’s support is a direct result of a compromise reached between the cricket boards of Pakistan and India over the issue of John Howard’s nomination for ICC vice-president. (How Pawar can do this without node from PM , did he really do it or is it just an as*hole speaking) Pakistan sided with the Asian bloc led by India by voting against the former Australian prime minister.

Here is what Porkis read from the report.
1. India was instrumental in rejection of Howard candidature. => Speed's reaction blaming Ijaz Butt is wrong.
2. India asked Pakistan's help to get his nomination rejected. => India comes crawling back to Pakistan.
3. Pakistan helped India to get its desire fulfilled. => We helped in the spirit of Asian Block. We are one.
4. Pakistan in return asked India for resumption of Indo-Pak series. => Pakistan demanded India resume sporting ties. India agreed.

This is a clear cut H&D issue for the porkis.

Now the truth:
1. India welcomed Howard candidature. India was never against his name. SL, SA & Zim had issues.
2. Speed blamed Ijaz Butt for the last minute change of votes (Porki vote and BL vote)
3. India joined in the spirit of Asian bloc.

Speaking of a deal to reject Howard, India does not gain much from the rejection of Howard Candidature. I think India did not cut a deal with Pak on the issue of Howard. Porkis can make a statement any way they want to sooth their H&D.

Either way, India and Pak will not play until 2012 for the schedule has been decided.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Jul 2010 21:09

A_Gupta wrote: Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.

General public are for the most part apathetic to India TSP issues. General public, at least those who watch English news channels, get their news from Bakara and Rajdeep. Thus, for them, more than dissing BRF as a "Hinduthva outlet" as you claim, they sure don't have the wherewithal to understand the complexities of TSP Pakijabis beyond what they have been fed. And such folks are too busy with their livlehoods, Bollywood/Tollywood etc, cricket, etc to give a rat's behind for what is happening to their country. And the vast general public are busy with making ends meet, caste, you name it.

As I was telling Archan several posts ago, forget the general public person, I have encountered super successful NRIs, successful in the sense of moolah they earned, technical/business achievements etc. But when it comes to TSP, they resemble a typical ignorant parvenu. Having no clue about TSP, been brainwashed by as I said, US media or DDM, they will come up with crap like, I know all, India TSP will be a garden of Eden but for extremists on both sides, TSP has LET, India has RSS/Shiv Sena etc. And you give a forceful counter argument highlighting the true nature of Pakijabis, and that becomes Hinduthva talk. So you get the picture. Such arrogant neophytes, will be themselves see the light when they spend enough time understanding TSP, and after their initial I know all arrognace dissipates (either that or they find some other avocation to feel good).

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 06 Jul 2010 21:22

CRamS wrote: General public are for the most part apathetic to India TSP issues.

Do you think 26/11 was a turning point for the Indian general public? I think it was enough of a shock that it got under even the incredibly thick skins of the Indian elite as well as aam admi.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jul 2010 21:27

Gagan wrote:
Suppiah wrote:Has Chankyanism worked? Tall mountain going slow on nuke deal to the pukes...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 135167.cms
I wonder, what does China have to gain from this deal?......

This really is sage advise for the Chinese. Limit involvement and exchanges with Pakistan. Keep the involvement to the extent that the ISI keeps the jihadis out of Xinjiang. Any more interaction can be bad for China's health.

Taller than mountain is a past master in the art of creating sitting ducks that can later be offered for slaughter...same as its butt-hole licking Pakbarian subsidiary. In fact it is hard to say who is master and who is the student in this matter. If Pakbarians arrest (and then quietly release) jihadis whenever someone big from US visits, PRC does that with Falungong/political prisoners who get released (and then quietly arrested again) ...

So this reactor could be a sitting duck created mainly for slaughter - whether MMS demands it or the west demands it...

It is important we dont pay too high a price for this particular duck to be offered as duck rice because it frankly does not matter if Pakbarians go for expensive nuke power that needs 400% security against their own purified citizens at equally enormous cost, all without any benefit to its weapons program...

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Jul 2010 21:40

I think we should start a faithfreedom style site for Pakistan. As long as it is serious, and well written, I think it will be successful.

In this forum most of the things we say are preaching to the choir.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Jul 2010 21:49

A_Gupta wrote:
archan wrote: And what is this crap about Hindutva people come up with from time to time? where is Hindutva in TSP thread?
Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.

if you and jaspreet ji, both senior and well respected postors feel like that why don't you simply report the stuff ? this once in a blue moon pot shots serve no real constructive purpose.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2010 21:55

Carl_T wrote:In this forum most of the things we say are preaching to the choir.

That is not entirely true. There are always new comers. BRF is well indexed by Search Engine Spiders. Many find their way here. Some write here while others just lurk.

My thinking has been transformed by BRF. I presume yours too has been influenced to some extent.

Important is that the site is interesting and members trigger and partake actively in discussions and keep it intelligent, and to some extent humorous as well. BRF is doing that.

I think, if the members start on some course of political correctness for the sake of the WKKs, it will be wrong. For the WKKs , BRF is pure p0rnography. Why wouldn't they like it?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jul 2010 22:02

RajeshA wrote:
If a 'general public person' from India feels repelled at BRF for whatever reason, he/she should be sent to the deaf and dumb forum. There you see, either a mushroom cloud or some Hindu child's body parts flowing in all directions or Pakistan's flags flying on the Red Fort on every single page. And of course there is then the language used on that forum, which is certainly not Lakhnawi Urdu! May be the 'general public person' can then appreciate the civility on BRF.

As far as I know,
there are NO mushroom clouds drawn on BRF,
there are NO Pakistani body parts flying in all four directions on BRF,
and if there are any Indian Flags flying in Karachi or Gwadar, they have been put there by Pakistanis themselves.

If the 'general public person' wants to know why BRF is BRF, there are threads on Terrorism
a) List of victims of Terrorist attacks in India

b) Mumbai Terrorist Attack-News stories and timeline

c) Pune Bomb Blast - 13 Feb 2010

d) Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism

e) The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co
There are threads on History

f) A look back at the partition

g) Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

h) Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

i) Pakiban- Origins, Composition, Tactics and Leadership

j) ISI-History and Discussions

k) Pashtun Civil War
There are threads on Pakistani Attitude towards others

l) Oppression of minorities in Pakistan

m) Baluchistan: The Story of Another Pakistan Military Genocide
There are threads on how India deals with Pakistan

n) Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

o) S-e-S Redux: Copenhagen?

p) A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

q) Managing Pakistan's failure
There are threads on the bositive side of Pakistan

r) Bakistan: Emirate of New-clear Inquilabi States-Bojitiv Newj
and then there are 100,000 versions of TSP Thread with 40 x 72 x 100,000 posts on Pakistaniyat!

My suggestion is to have 'A short primer on Pakistan' attached on every TSP Thread First Post, perhaps in pdf format. And another 'List of Pakistan-related Acronyms'. Those who are open and eager, for them this would suffice. One can have further links at the start of the TSP page, as is the case now, which provides some further reading suggestions. More threads are an overkill!

I like this mapping og the various threads to TSP related issues. Maybe we can have pdfof this mapping in the first post.

Also trying to win over WKKs or psecs is not an easy task as they have a predetermined stance. No amount of arguing with them will win them over.
We can only present the data and let it speak for itself.

At same time we need more outlets to spread our views and I like Carl_T's suggestion to have more outlets. I have encouraged SSridhar to update a blog on "Understanding Pakistan". We still need more sites.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 06 Jul 2010 22:52

That was nice article posted by RVaidya ji. Master stroke by pashtuns to take the war where it matters. AOA!

The two attacks on the minority worship places and the resultant reaction or lack thereof by paki govt, media, intelligencia and people have not only re-exposed the critical fault line in paki society but also have bought it to the surface. Don't be surprised if there are one or more follow-on attacks like this.

But the real back breaking attacks in Punjab will be after that. With the duplicity exposed, pakjabis will have hard time seeking support from everyone. The chaos and division will then be music for pashtuns and may give them either some peace or satisfaction of their kind. May allah bless pashtuns in their effort.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jul 2010 23:01

CIA, Pakistan Locked in Aggressive Spy Battles
U.S. Tries to Probe Pakistani Nuke Program while Maintaining Anti-Terror Ties; Pakistan Allegedly Uses Double-Agent Schemes

AP)

A Pakistani man approached CIA officers in Islamabad last year, offering to give up secrets of his country's closely guarded nuclear program. To prove he was a trustworthy source, he claimed he had spent nuclear fuel rods. But the CIA had its doubts. Before long, the suspicious officers had concluded that Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, was trying to run a double agent against them. CIA officers alerted their Pakistani counterparts. Pakistan promised to look into the matter and, with neither side acknowledging the man was a double agent, the affair came to a polite, quiet end.the incident, recounted by former U.S. officials, underscores the schizophrenic relationship with one of America's most crucial counterterrorism allies. Publicly, officials credit Pakistani collaboration with helping kill and capture numerous al Qaeda and Taliban leaders. Privately, that relationship is often marked by mistrust as the two countries wage an aggressive spy battle against each other. The CIA has repeatedly tried to penetrate the ISI and learn more about Pakistan's nuclear program; and the ISI has mounted its own operations to gather intelligence on the CIA's counterterrorism activities in the tribal lands and figure out what the CIA knows about the nuclear program. Bumping up against the ISI is a way of life for the CIA in Pakistan, the agency's command center for recruiting spies in the country's lawless tribal regions. Officers there also coordinate Predator drone airstrikes, the CIA's most successful and lethal counterterrorism program. The armed, unmanned planes take off from a base inside Pakistani Baluchistan known as "Rhine

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/ ... 0616.shtml

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Jul 2010 23:04

Satya_anveshi wrote:That was nice article posted by RVaidya ji. Master stroke by pashtuns to take the war where it matters. AOA!

Which one? I must have missed it.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 06 Jul 2010 23:08

CRamS wrote:Which one? I must have missed it.

R Vaidya wrote:If this has been posted earlier apologies.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010070644 ... +Review%29
Attacks In Lahore: Buildup To Secession?
By Siddharth Ramana

James B · Post by **James B** » 06 Jul 2010 23:20

ramana wrote:A new thread on TSP FAQs is a good thing. Hope those who are making suggestions here contribute to that thread. Till then can we please have this thread for its regular programming?

Yes TSP FAQs is a good idea, as we can do a good job of referencing and indexing information about Pakistan and Pakistaniyat at one place. We can start a thread on TSP, where all important FAQs should be posted in the first post and BRFites with wealth information on Pakistan (both current and historical) will contribute with answers and references wherever possible. This way we can compile all the information on TSP at one place in an organized fashion. Each FAQ will get a number and members contributing to the particular FAQ will quote it. Then we can keep updating the answer to each and every FAQ progressively till such time we feel that it is easily understandable and appealing to newbies.

I can make a guidelines on how to go about with the FAQs compilation and then we can tweak around with suggestions and comments on them. Once we have guidelines in place we can open a new thread on TSP FAQs. Till then, I think, we can use this thread.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2010 00:39

SSridhar garu,

you have mail.

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 07 Jul 2010 00:51

-Deleted- Duplicate

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 07 Jul 2010 00:52

Apologies if posted earlier. A good article from Praveen Swami

The Lashkar cadre are responding. This March, they paraded with posters illustrated with images of the burning Taj Mahal Hotel, bearing slogans promising to “liberate Kashmir, Pakistan's lifeline, from the enemy,” bring about the “freedom of the Muslims of Gujarat, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad and the rest of India,” and to save “Pakistan's parched waters” from Indian dams. Instead of acting on these objectives, though, the Lashkar has been forced to bide its time

We have always known wetdream no one and three are always related. I hope GOI is cognizant of this aspect becoming more vocal for recruiting canon fodder in Jihadi caves.

Praveen Swami also uses the word jihadist sometimes in this article. What does this neologism, as I have not formally read it thus far

, mean? Any guru?

http://thehindu.com/opinion/lead/articl ... epage=true

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 07 Jul 2010 01:01

CIA and Pakistan locked in aggressive spy battles

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 07 Jul 2010 01:54

The terrorist speaks, but why so late

Asked who was behind last week's suicide bombing of the Data Darbar shrine in Lahore that killed 45 people, Saeed replied, "I think there should be a proper investigation against India and its allies, who are avowed enemies of Pakistan."

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jul/ ... -saeed.htm

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 07 Jul 2010 02:19

The terrorist speaks, but why so late
Quote:
Asked who was behind last week's suicide bombing of the Data Darbar shrine in Lahore that killed 45 people, Saeed replied, "I think there should be a proper investigation against India and its allies, who are avowed enemies of Pakistan."

The problem in Pakistan is that there is not much difference between what the aam abdul thinks and how dreaded terrorists think. Consider the key parts of a news report from last week:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_8

US blamed as shrine attack toll rises to 44
...People lash out at US, blaming its alliance with govt, presence in Afghanistan for spurring attacks...

Several other people interviewed blamed the Ahmadis. While others cast about for additional villains - though America’s hand was seen there, too.

Washington “is encouraging Indians and Jews to carry out attacks” in Pakistan, said Arifa Moen, 32, a teacher in the central city of Multan.

Terrorist big wig and Multan teacher are completely in sync...

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Jul 2010 02:20

shiv wrote:

Take a look back at that news item about some Paki passing out parade ...

Passing Out Parade is an old tradition of the Pakistan Navy officers. Whenever they see IN ships approaching the Karachi harbour, they pass out.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Jul 2010 02:28

The Lashkar cadre are responding. This March, they paraded with posters illustrated with images of the burning Taj Mahal Hotel, bearing slogans promising to “liberate Kashmir, Pakistan's lifeline, from the enemy,” bring about the “freedom of the Muslims of Gujarat, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad and the rest of India

Ahmedabad is separate from Gujarat

Tamil movie watchers will remember the dialog from Vadivelu "Dubai ??it must be near Erode or Tuticorin.."

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Jul 2010 02:35

Suppiah wrote:IMHO the article by this guy Sidharth Ramana is complete hogwash. The present crisis in TSP is only 10% secessionist. 90% Inner Pakistaniyat. The word secession itself appears only in the heading of the report and once after - in first paragraph. After that he rambles on about other info all known to anyone that reads the newspaper, without saying anything new.

"Secession" makes sense only when there is a *real nation* to secede FROM.

When a nation has an ethnocultural and political foundation for its own identity, one that is not completely dependent on its attitude towards an ideology, or towards other nations and peoples... then a subnational identity can emerge in terms of "secession", "self-determination" and all that.

Pakistan is not a real nation. There is no question of "self-determination" for any subgroup within Pakistan because the "self-determination" of Pakistan itself is on untenably shaky ground. That is why no political solution is possible whereby any group within Pakistan is offered some degree of "self-determination" or autonomy by the government. A group like the Baloch or Pashtuns, if given self-determination, would have a stronger basis for nationhood than the nation of Pakistan itself.

Every ethnic, social and economic group in Pakistan at some level recognize this fervently. They know that Pakistan is a rentier state presently being solicited to other nations by the Pakistan Army for revenue generation, consolidation of political power and ideological fulfillment.

In such a "nation", groups who in other countries would want to "secede", can become more ambitious. They can plan to take over the rentier apparatus for themselves, because that's all the "nation" is... a rentier apparatus.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2010 02:37

I agree the IPCS article on TTp misses the mark that the attack was dark green on apple green and thus sectarian and not secessionist.
Wonder why he wrote wrong stuff and got it published!

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 07 Jul 2010 02:47

Paki uvacha on AFSPA

New Delhi has outrightly denied discussing the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) with Pakistan during the foreign secretaries of India and Pakistan talks held on June 24-26, 2010, claiming that “AFSPA is internal act to us and Pakistan does not have any locus standi on it.”

Ah the sense of entitlement! Sometimes I feel if India does no talking to Pakis, they would just kill out of sheer frustration

Even the Supreme Court of India upheld the black law by its judgment given on November 27, 1997. These judges are regarded as racists and chauvinists like their political mentors.

Regarded racist by whom?

It is clearly a hate statement. That society is indeed FUBAR

AFSPA surprisingly is not enforced throughout India, but only in certain states declared as ‘disturbed areas’ like Nagaland, Assam, Manipur, Mizoram and Kashmir.

Lahori logic

. Because rest of India is not 'disturbed', depsite Paki wetdreams

All the mainstream Indian political parties, each trying to be more ‘patriotic’ than the other, agree not to repeal AFSPA, despite the fact that it is damaging India’s image in the international community.

What is international community, Al Keeda or TTP? Thugs worried about India's image

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... ome--AFSPA

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2010 02:55

Airavat wrote:Rise of the poorer castes in Swat

Pakistan failed to provide the people of Swat the standard of governance that the erstwhile state did. Though the people of Swat stoically put up with everything else, what they could not fathom was the new justice system. Whereas in the Wali’s Swat, a case could be decided within weeks, under the new system it took years and even decades to reach its logical end. An elderly man in Mingora was spot on when he recently said, ‘If we don’t have enough food, we make do with what we have and survive. But no one can live without justice.’

It was this essential need of the people that Sufi Mohammad, the bigoted and ignorant founder of the Tehrik e Nifaz e Shariat e Mohammadi played upon. His mission was taken up by his son-in-law Fazalullah. A drop out from a seminary in Swabi, he became famous as Mullah Radio for his broadcasts on an illegal FM radio. His focus was on doing good which appealed to the masses. This person of no means was soon riding an SUV worth five million rupees. Presently he had an escort of, first two, and then four vehicles loaded with armed hoodlums.

Those who flocked under the banner of Fazalullah were known to the people of Swat as the Parachgan and the Naian – the Parachas and the Nais (barbers). The former are poor labourers who collect sand from the Swat River for the construction industry and the latter, as the name indicates, a rank considered to be the lowest among the working classes. Though they spoke Pashto and affected the Pakhtun mannerism and dress, neither caste was Pakhtun. They were therefore on the lowest rung of the social order.

They were fired not by Islamic zeal but by unremitting envy and hatred for those whom fortune had placed above them. And so they went into a frenzy of destroying the social order. The homes of the rich were bombed and their elders murdered. One informant in Swat said, "Those who once never dared look up to the windows of the homes of the rich, now swaggered into those same houses and took away young women to be 'married' to some talib or the other. This was organised rape, but no one raised a voice because the State of Pakistan had abandoned us."

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 07 Jul 2010 03:08

archan wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Try referring a general public person to BRF and see the usual reaction.
Not too long ago I was what you call "general public". No one introduced me to BRF and back then we used to have threads like Islamism. BRF neither turned me into a Hindutvawadi, nor into a Muslim hater. We are not born BRFites you see. One who is open is open, one who is not will find excuses. Anyway, we will need to move this discussion elsewhere, a temporary thread perhaps.

Archanullah,

I think Arun Gupta-ji has a point, though it's unfortunate that someone had to drag "Hindutva" into the picture to reinforce it. I myself am a dyed-in-the-wool Hindutvavadi and to me there is no distinction between that and nationalism. I have no time for those following an agenda to apply pejorative connotations to the term.

However, between people like yourself (with the intellectual honesty to be open-minded and the genuine curiosity to come to BRF on their own), and the pathological excuse-making WKKs (brainwashed by relentless, motivated propaganda from the Sardesai/Barkha/TOIlet media)... there exists a considerable middle ground.

There are lots and lots of Indians who are ambivalent about Pakistan... sometimes they feel a thrill of cricketing rivalry, at other times they put Pakistan in the back of their minds and are lulled by "Aman-ki-Asha" type nonsense, and only when something like 26/11 happens are they confronted with the full reality of what Pakistan is about. But what happens after the atrocity? There are a few weeks of sorrowful rage, followed by a few months of festering resentment at the GOI's impotent response; and finally, as the great wash of other priorities compels them to get on with their lives, these people end up forgetting about Pakistan and paying attention to other things. Ultimately their anger heals and they are ripe for "Aman-ki-Asha" type propaganda again. Until the next 26/11.

There is no consistency at a mass level, and therefore, no constituency within India which demands a consistent approach to the Pakistan problem at a governmental level. GOI policy towards Pakistan therefore turns out to be ad-hoc at best, or dictated by foreign interests at worst.

I honestly believe the great mass of Indians vacillates between favouring cricket/being ok with (if not fully supportive of) "Aman-ki-Asha", and the other extreme of rage provoked by incidents like Kargil, 26/11 and so on. It is the periods in between that matter. It is in those intervening periods when, feeling neither emotionally overwhelmed by "bhai-chara" WKK cr@p nor intensely angered by a fresh onslaught of Pakistani terrorism, Indians en masse have the capacity to think rationally and develop a well-founded, well-thought-out, logical attitude to the problem of Pakistan.

A consistent, mass-based foundation that takes a realistic attitude towards Pakistan and evolves realistic solutions to Pakistan is of great importance. Inculcating that is where a thread such as Arun Gupta-ji is suggesting, could have value.