Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

[chetak]

Some on the Babur's bridge would have been hallaled, for sure.

Chetak, why ? OTOH, they are heroes in Pakistan's eyes. They challenged an Indian warship and that too from the behinds and slowed down to face the Indian ship's response. But, the cowardly Hindus chose to remain silent. A nice retribution for the bombing of the Karachi harbour in 1971. I am sure the commander of the ship would get an award soon, probably Nishan-e-Imtiaz.

SSridhar ji,

There is no maardanghi involved in endangering the safety of the ship and the crew. Bravado at sea has severe limits during peace time.

No Navy or captain will see it as heroism, IMVHO. The press may have put a different spin on it later. Fata abduls will obviously have a different take on things.

There was a very bad miscalculation from the Babur's bridge. They had a providential escape. The Babur probably did not respond to helm inputs as expected because her bow was in the very turbulent waters of the wake of our ship at that extremely close distance. The paki captain did not anticipate this probably due to inexperience or rush of blood.

Either way he was squarely at fault, and would have been held responsible either in a paki court martial or an international maritime court of law, where undoubtedly the matter would have landed up had a real collision actually taken place.

The Babur slowed because the pakis frantically reversed their engines by going full or emergency astern to avert the collision. They did not have ANY other option.

The bow of the Babur plowing into our ship and her spinning propellers would have been catastrophic, to say the least.

Ramming a man of war in international waters would have been seen as an act of war.
Even our dhotiwallas would have had to take serious notice and react accordingly.

[Suppiah]

GOI WKKs go beyond just sitting with popcorn and watching events in TSP unfold while consciously avoiding action, or even chanakianly pretending to be friends--at the core, they are actually sincere in wishing Pakistan well,

I used to think that way too in many ways still do think so. But recent events have led to some doubts..

MMS and other WKKs with power to do something (let us ignore the noise from powerless WKKs who beat their breasts and wail) seem to be making a lot of noise but basically holding tight to well known positions. Forget about adding 2 or 3 more items to the list traded thru' Cashmere borders, most likely items no one wants or uses...what else did HRK or for that matter Unkil / TSP pressure achieve? As Economist once sarcastically put it, India and Thailand agree to free trade on snow mobiles.

That does not make the WKKs any less dangerous in terms of FUTURE potential to sell out, and I am not in the business of issuing them certificates of patriotism or good conduct, but purely going by past events, that sell out has not happened.

Unless you are so mean that spending a few Re on chai biskoot is considered enormous cost on our economy.

Yes they wish TSP well in the sense that they do not hate TSP for being bearded or Pakis just as Unkil does not hate them for merely being so - (in that vein, it is only the PRC public that hates beards simply for being beards, that is before Xinjiang really erupts..) but then you don't expect them to be hard core BRF types ....the added bonus is of course, one or two more votes from the 'vote bank' who would have anyway voted them. That realisation too is creeping which is why Digvijay types are kept under tight leash.

But real meat thrown on table for Pakbaric dogs to eat and claim victory - no that is not happening.

[Suppiah]

Far from being a strategic depth, Afghan is a place where Pakbaric jehadi pigs go and become slaves...

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/04/sixteen- ... -free.html

[ArmenT]

Frankly, I think the Indian vessel was put at risk in letting the Paki ship get so close. You never know if their ship was on a soosai mission or not. I hope that the IN put procedures in place so that the captain speedily gets permission to fire from New Delhi babus, if such an incident happens again.

Similar thing happened with the USS Cole. Per the rules of engagement that the Cole was then operating under, the sailors couldn't get permission to fire on the boat that was approaching them. One of the sailors on board, who was wounded by the explosion, was pretty critical about the procedures, because he actually had the boat covered by a heavy machine gun, but couldn't get the OK because they hadn't been fired upon yet. And he was ordered to turn away the gun by a senior officer even *after* the explosion, because the senior officer pointed out that their ROE forbade using the gun and he was looking at a court-martial if he opened fire! Right after the incident, USN changed their rules of engagement and streamlined their process. I think IN should follow suit and make it easier for the captain to get the OK.

[Sri]

Najma Sethi Gives a balanced account of the 4 wars.

http://pakistanherald.com/Program/Aapas ... arooq-7673

[anjan]

..and hence the comparison between Indian WKKs and US/China policies towards Pakistan is preposterous and ridiculous.

To who's benefit? We're all seeing terror attacks being planned and executed(even the tallel fliends) and some of us are actually not paying money for it.

Supply routes are now same as securing the borders of a country ? The Korengal offensive was a part of core Afghan strategy "Target,Train and Transfer" and never "securing" Afghanistan's border "sovereignty".

Yes. Extraordinarily silly to imagine that people actually try and stop or stem the flow of incoming men and material while fighting an insurgency. Spare me the "Target train.. " BS. If Woodward is to be believed even the US military doesn't believe it. And as I recall it was an Obama message as part of the tamping down of forces and the Korengal outpost closed shortly thereafter. So what are you talking about? It's a counter insurgency op. Plain and Simple.

Even the security of supply logistics is not covered by the US military, if so, ever inch of the long route between Karachi to Kandahar would have to be secured by the US. So 140 thousand NATO troops are fighting a bitter war,holding on to cities/towns/villages in Afghanistan, training the Afghan forces and also making sure Afghanistan's non-existent borders are secure? wow!

Who said anything about NATO troops and supply line security? That's the protection racket Pakistan is running.

Yes, an armed force securing the border to contain and choke an insurgency. What a novel concept. Unheard of. Oh look maybe not so much? Defenses aim to stop militants at Afghan border

At any rate you're obfuscating and this is a distraction. The original point was that the terrain makes completely stopping infiltrators impossible. Even for the great Khan and friends.

I have seen those attacks that haven't been stopped, and there is one too many for comfort.

Sure. Who's arguing that. The objection was to "Rah Rah! USA!" look at how khan can stop stuff while incompetent Indians can't. I pointed out that there are factors more important than sheer national greatness of the US that protect it and make India more vulnerable. Like terrain, territorial contiguity and proximity. Are you disputing this?

Your question was my original answer! US shows the money,gets a service,much cheaper and less painful than going on another war. How on earth is Arundhoti doing India's bidding ? And how is this WKK ==US/China ? No, the "==" between WKKs and others wasn't limited to the "great Khan", it was great Khan and Chinese policies towards Pak.

The "service" in this case is that your troops get water and oil and all the other small things that grease the machine of war. Suzy costs nothing and obtains nothing as far as I can see.

[abhishek_sharma]

MMS and other WKKs with power to do something (let us ignore the noise from powerless WKKs who beat their breasts and wail) seem to be making a lot of noise but basically holding tight to well known positions.

Not true if you believe the reports on back channel negotiations.

[rohitvats]

Is he losing it? A divison is about 18,000 troops. Or is he insulting his corps commandus!

Status of their equivalent to SFC has same status as a regular Corps in PA.

[sum]

Frankly, I think the Indian vessel was put at risk in letting the Paki ship get so close. You never know if their ship was on a soosai mission or not. I hope that the IN put procedures in place so that the captain speedily gets permission to fire from New Delhi babus, if such an incident happens again.

Good point....All Paki machines should be assumed to be soosai bombers unless proven otherwise!

Never know if the Pakis will use one of their ships/tanks/xxx as a suicide thing to cause damage to a bigger Indian vessel and then claim that it was captained by a non-state actor and so, they cant help it.

[rajanb]

Mort:

4. In my opinion, the US-Pakistan relationship with the White House can also be made less relevant should US-India trade go over $100 billion, or become a top 5 US trading partner, over the next few years. There is money to be made by the corporations who have tremendous political leverage with a US president from any political party. Its a double edged sword because these corporations will also screw India economically, but they will ensure Pakistan is relegated to the dust bin of history.

I would think that in these times of economic stress for the US, we should go so far as to dangle this carrot of a $100B trade, and extract our pound of flesh vis a vis American policy. Rather than hand it to them on a platter. Our money should translate not only to helping them but to helping us too. Rather than hope that US Corporations would use political leverage!

[shiv]

Frankly, I think the Indian vessel was put at risk in letting the Paki ship get so close. You never know if their ship was on a soosai mission or not. I hope that the IN put procedures in place so that the captain speedily gets permission to fire from New Delhi babus, if such an incident happens again.

Similar thing happened with the USS Cole. Per the rules of engagement that the Cole was then operating under, the sailors couldn't get permission to fire on the boat that was approaching them. One of the sailors on board, who was wounded by the explosion, was pretty critical about the procedures, because he actually had the boat covered by a heavy machine gun, but couldn't get the OK because they hadn't been fired upon yet. And he was ordered to turn away the gun by a senior officer even *after* the explosion, because the senior officer pointed out that their ROE forbade using the gun and he was looking at a court-martial if he opened fire! Right after the incident, USN changed their rules of engagement and streamlined their process. I think IN should follow suit and make it easier for the captain to get the OK.

Good point. That Baber should have been sunk.

[sum]

Tajikistan bans Muslim youths from praying in mosques

Tajik President Imomali Rakhmon has banned youths from praying in mosques and churches, prompting a local Muslim leader to call the move a gruesome gift for the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Rakhmon, in power since 1992, signed the bill on parental responsibility on Wednesday. He has said tough measures are needed to stop the spread of religious fundamentalism in his country of 7.5 million people, 98 per cent of whom are Muslim.

All people under 18, except those studying at religious schools, are banned from worshipping in the Central Asian nation's mosques, churches or other religious sites, said the law which came into force on Thursday.

How is all this related to Pak?

Rakhmon, who enjoys vast powers in the poorest of the former Soviet states, last year brought many Tajik students home from religious schools abroad and clamped down on a growing trend for Islamic dress.

Spider sense days most of the students were from Pak

[SSridhar]

There is no maardanghi involved in endangering the safety of the ship and the crew. Bravado at sea has severe limits during peace time. . . . The paki captain did not anticipate this probably due to inexperience or rush of blood.

Either way he was squarely at fault, and would have been held responsible either in a paki court martial . . .

Chetak ji, what you say are all for normal nation-states. A more-sensible commander would not have undertaken a perilous manouevere either due to inexperience (which I doubt in this case) or rush of blood. What is the loss of a frigate, a few lives or retaliation from a more powerful nation when demonstrating the Pakistani bravado ? For a nation that speaks casually of nuking India, how do all these matter ? For the armed forces who consider Islamist jihadi terrroists as part and parcel of themselves, do International Laws and conventions hold any threat ? How many times in the 70s and 80s have we seen Indian planes being hijacked to Pakistan, its passengers put to great risk, the hijackers being welcomed by Pakistani leaders (in one instance ZAB boarded the plane and congratulated the hijackers before they blew up the plane) and safely allowed to stay in Pakistan ? Then, what about all the wars and terrorism it inflicted on us and the rest of the world ? What about the Wal-mart of nuclear and missile proliferation brazenly undertaken by the Army and political leaders ? Pakistan may think that if it can survive and escape serious retribution for all these, it can also survive the collision with an enemy warship. What remains etched in my memory is the swagger with which the then COAS, Musharraf, tested a new Italian revolver with his boss, the then PM of Pakistan, standing just next to him in 1999. Such arrogance & nonchalance.

[Pratyush]

Frankly, I think the Indian vessel was put at risk in letting the Paki ship get so close. You never know if their ship was on a soosai mission or not. I hope that the IN put procedures in place so that the captain speedily gets permission to fire from New Delhi babus, if such an incident happens again.

Similar thing happened with the USS Cole. Per the rules of engagement that the Cole was then operating under, the sailors couldn't get permission to fire on the boat that was approaching them. One of the sailors on board, who was wounded by the explosion, was pretty critical about the procedures, because he actually had the boat covered by a heavy machine gun, but couldn't get the OK because they hadn't been fired upon yet. And he was ordered to turn away the gun by a senior officer even *after* the explosion, because the senior officer pointed out that their ROE forbade using the gun and he was looking at a court-martial if he opened fire! Right after the incident, USN changed their rules of engagement and streamlined their process. I think IN should follow suit and make it easier for the captain to get the OK.

In international waters, the only option available to the IN Ship was to take evasive action. Sure the Jingo heart asks for harder action against the PNS. But any hostile action by the INS would have been an act of war.

My reading of the event is that the PNS wanted to provoke the INS into doing some thing in the heat of the moment. The INS had the option of shooting a Torpedo / Missileat the PNS. But that would have been an act of war.

The other option available to the IN is to have one of the choppers buzz the bridge of the PNS. Day in and day out. Some thing that makes the life of the PN misirable.

I am looking forward to the IN getting supersonic jets in fleet air arm. The PN if they decide to get close to an IN carrier. The Mig can always do a supersonic run on the bridge of the PNS. Breaking Glass and giving them head aches and telling the Bakies that there is not a damm thing they can do about it.

[SSridhar]

Frankly, I think the Indian vessel was put at risk in letting the Paki ship get so close. You never know if their ship was on a soosai mission or not. . . . I think IN should follow suit and make it easier for the captain to get the OK.

Good point. That Baber should have been sunk.

Yes. IN & GoI must review even their peacetime RoE vis-a-vis Pakistan after this incident.

[Singha]

the godavari accelerated pretty fast though...are steam turbine plants able to ramp up that quickly?
my layman's idea was a ship like P17 with 2 diesel and 2 gas turbine are able to activate the gas turbines quickly for high speed runs.

[rajpa]

godavari should have taken a fast u-turn and splashed barber like a surf kid with a ferrari ah the fun we sdres miss..!!!

[Philip]

The sickening jihadi manner in which the PN beardies behaved indicates their lack of professionalism,excellent for the IN,as during any crisis,their hot-headedness and lack of clear and calm thought will prove diastrous for them! The Babar was behaving as if it was a "suicide" bumboat instead of a professionally handled warship.Kudos to the skipper of the INS Godavari for resonding with such alacrity to the situ.

[SSridhar]

PRC plays down differences with TSP and praises Pakistan for support

Apparently, the GUBO with Pasha in the last couple of days has been pleasing to the PLA Generals. The Langley GUBO two weeks earlier made it a smooth affair for the taller friends.

[rajanb]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MH05Df04.html

Latest update on the tit for tat between ISI and the CIA.

And in the short term, the Paquis seem to be winning.

[gakakkad]

[youtube]hHANL26gVlc&NR=1[/youtube]

[A_Gupta]

Sadananda Dhume on Leiven and Reidel
http://www.aei.org/article/103952

[Ambar]

To who's benefit? We're all seeing terror attacks being planned and executed(even the tallel fliends) and some of us are actually not paying money for it.

The uncorking of jihadi genie inside Pakistan post 9/11,endless drone attacks with or without Pak permission,2000+ intrusions into Pak by US Spec forces,Raymond David affair,Chinese pressure on Pakis after Chinese hookers( no less!) were attacked that led to Lal Masjid, and coining of the word 'GUBO' on brf while referring to Pakis being Pakis for the way it deals with its masters are all that has been achieved by our WKKs,yes,i think i see your point!

The likes of Arundati Roy/Angana Chatterji/Javed Naqwi/Kuldeep Nayar etc don't look at Pakistan as an entity that could/is hurting Indian interests, but they see it the other way around as India's sole existence being a bane to Pakistan's survival. US/Chinese policies towards Pakistan is to rent a mercenary state to help them achieve their limited goals. Does this renter power always behave well ? No,it doesn't, but is it enough to let go off it and seek some other avenues ? Possibly in future but not while US still has over 100 thousand troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

Yes. Extraordinarily silly to imagine that people actually try and stop or stem the flow of incoming men and material while fighting an insurgency. Spare me the "Target train.. " BS. If Woodward is to be believed even the US military doesn't believe it. And as I recall it was an Obama message as part of the tamping down of forces and the Korengal outpost closed shortly thereafter. So what are you talking about? It's a counter insurgency op. Plain and Simple.

Either you are purposefully being naive or extremely stupid! The Korengal offensive was to disrupt one of the 7 core "hubs" of Taliban in Kunar,especially the senior taliban militants who routinely used the route to supply heavy logistics inside Afg. It was not to sanitize and protect the border to maintain Afghanistan's "soverignity"! India's task is to protect our borders , the task of US in Afghanistan is to disrupt the logistics route of its enemies in a hostile nation.

If "Target,Train and Transfer" are BS, then pray tell us what is the ultimate goal of US in Afg ? Unless you believe in "1 trillion$ worth mines in Afg" theory being peddled by the Pentagon to keep US populace interested in an extremely unpopular war,i see no reasons not to believe Woodward.

Who said anything about NATO troops and supply line security? That's the protection racket Pakistan is running.

oh well..

Knob? What knob? They hold a knob as much as a hostage negotiator paying off the kidnapper holds a knob. That supply route to US troops in Afg. and the +X dollahs fuel costs coming over CAR ... that's how the Pakis have the US by the short and curlies

Sure. Who's arguing that. The objection was to "Rah Rah! USA!" look at how khan can stop stuff while incompetent Indians can't. I pointed out that there are factors more important than sheer national greatness of the US that protect it and make India more vulnerable. Like terrain, territorial contiguity and proximity. Are you disputing this?

Funny how you keep bringing up oceans,mountains and "rah rah! USA!" into discussion just to support the ridiculous pisskology "Indian WKK == US/Chinese policy" ! Sure! The "rah rah! USA!" routinely picks up dinghies to coke submarines from oceans,stops dozens of plots prematurely,loses 2 govt officials to a Paki gunman, hunts him down to a dirty motel in Pakistan after 3 yrs and brings him to justice,masterminds of those who knocked the buildings either dead or in prison ,2 countries bombed to dust,yeah,its all the dang oceans! Cruel joke that we just allowed a 1000 tonne freighter to sail a month in the ocean and drift effortlessly for 5 days in our waters before spotting it. yep, its just the oceans and we would all be good and secure. Now which is the other landlocked little country surrounded hostile neighbors? Dare i say it, as we can do no wrong it is just the evil but weak unkil and pandas and that missing ocean that keeps us from stopping folks blowing up our cities!

And since this pisskology has nothing to do with current events in Pakistan, i request we take this to the "off-topic thread".

[Kashi]

Najma Sethi Gives a balanced account of the 4 wars.

http://pakistanherald.com/Program/Aapas ... arooq-7673

Balanced account my a*se. Just listen to his account of Kargil War- "Siachen was always under the control of Pakistan. We used to vacate those heights in winter and India took advantage and captured our territory. We decided to return the favour in Kargil- starting in November, December 1998".

[shiv]

Who is saying US is tough? Please make your points without reference to any members whom you cant identify.

You wanted names?

Here you go. Here is a comparison that focuses on US drug enforcement successes in the Pakistan discussion thread basically leading to a comparison between India and the USA where the USA is held up as competent and powerful and India weak and impotent. Classic rah rah rah America.

The "rah rah! USA!" routinely picks up dinghies to coke submarines from oceans,stops dozens of plots prematurely,loses 2 govt officials to a Paki gunman, hunts him down to a dirty motel in Pakistan after 3 yrs and brings him to justice,masterminds of those who knocked the buildings either dead or in prison ,2 countries bombed to dust,yeah,its all the dang oceans! Cruel joke that we just allowed a 1000 tonne freighter to sail a month in the ocean and drift effortlessly for 5 days in our waters before spotting it. yep, its just the oceans and we would all be good and secure. Now which is the other landlocked little country surrounded hostile neighbors?

This is what I am saying is being constantly missed - when we have people who get angry and upset if the US is shown to be as weak as WKKs and need to do a write up to show the superiority of USof A (rah rah) over India.As if India would gain from mollycoddling and paying protection money to Pakistan like the USA

Note also the other sentence below. The anger of cognitive dissonance since you want to know who needs pisking. This is what is called "getting personal" in my dictionary.

Either you are purposefully being naive or extremely stupid!

[A_Gupta]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MH05Df04.html

Latest update on the tit for tat between ISI and the CIA.

And in the short term, the Paquis seem to be winning.

A fundamental fact of Paqui piskology is that in the short term, the Paquis are winning. Always! Which is why they do the things they do. They are on an ever-winning path to perdition.

[Lalmohan]

Najma Sethi Gives a balanced account of the 4 wars.

http://pakistanherald.com/Program/Aapas ... arooq-7673

Balanced account my a*se. Just listen to his account of Kargil War- "Siachen was always under the control of Pakistan. We used to vacate those heights in winter and India took advantage and captured our territory. We decided to return the favour in Kargil- starting in November, December 1998".

no journalist in pukesland can write without CHaap from ISI HQ, they've admitted it themselves
no need for us to take anything they write seriously

[shiv]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MH05Df04.html

Latest update on the tit for tat between ISI and the CIA.

And in the short term, the Paquis seem to be winning.

A fundamental fact of Paqui piskology is that in the short term, the Paquis are winning. Always! Which is why they do the things they do. They are on an ever-winning path to perdition.

Arun read the language of this report that you have posted, and then the one below that

The breakdown of Pakistan-US military and intelligence ties is more worrisome for the US, which is anxious to reach a settlement in Afghanistan before withdrawing US-led forces from the war-stricken country. US Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Admiral Mike Mullen stated on July 25 that Pakistan-US military-to-military ties were at a "very difficult" crossroads, and that a path to progress on that front was not yet clear.

Mullen said at a press briefing in Washington: "We are in a very difficult time right now in our military-to-military relations. Despite the strain, I don't think that we are close to severing those ties. I hope the two nations would soon find a way to recalibrate those ties.

Now this one from China
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 321242.ece

China on Wednesday sought to play down reports of differences with Pakistan in the wake of recent violence in Xinjiang, announcing it planned to step up anti-terrorism cooperation with the country.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry in a statement also praised Pakistan’s efforts in combating terrorism, two days after the regional government in Xinjiang blamed a group of extremists, reportedly trained in terror camps in Pakistan, for attacks in Kashgar over the weekend that left more than 20 people dead.

Funny isn't it? These powerful nations get kicked by Pakistan and they end up praising their relationship or desperately trying to keep the relationship going. I think it is constantly ignored on here that the relationship maintained with Pakistan is one in which Pakistan will not be punished, it will be praised and mollycoddled.

This is the true nature of relationship between the US/China and Pakistan - far more akin to WWKism++ that that of a slave master relationship that it is conveniently touted to be when a specious contrast with India needs to be drawn. We are basically lying to each other in this regard and not paying attention to exactly what the Chinese and Americans are actually doing. There seems to be a degree of delusional belief that "powerful and strong willed nations" like the USA and China have pinned Pakistan down while a weak India dithers. We cannot hope to even understand how Pakistan relates to its sponsors if we collectively choose to lie to ourselves that Pakistan is being handled with an iron fist by China and the US. It is not. It is being pampered and sucked up to.

[archan]

shiv,
If you take the responsibility to correct every opinion posted here, more power to you. However, my interest is in maintaining decorum so I cannot let you do anything which another user is not allowed to. So please, no bringing in any other member's location, citizenship, loyalty etc. into debates. You are knowledgeable enough to not need to go that route.

[shiv]

shiv,
If you take the responsibility to correct every opinion posted here, more power to you. However, my interest is in maintaining decorum so I cannot let you do anything which another user is not allowed to. So please, no bringing in any other member's location, citizenship, loyalty etc. into debates. You are knowledgeable enough to not need to go that route.

Archan I understand.

[anupmisra]

Tajikistan bans Muslim youths from praying in mosques

Tajik President Imomali Rakhmon has banned youths from praying in mosques and churches, prompting a local Muslim leader to call the move a gruesome gift for the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Rakhmon, in power since 1992, signed the bill on parental responsibility on Wednesday. He has said tough measures are needed to stop the spread of religious fundamentalism in his country of 7.5 million people, 98 per cent of whom are Muslim. All people under 18, except those studying at religious schools, are banned from worshipping in the Central Asian nation's mosques, churches or other religious sites, said the law which came into force on Thursday.

Time for he local al-keeda urf al paki returned tajik commander to issue the following cookie cutter demand:

"My Muslim brothers in Tajikistan, we failed to follow the tenets of our faith, and instead supported our enemies — who enforced Anti-Islamic Laws upon us, raped our women, violated the sanctity of our homes, invaded our land, and stole our wealth. Preparing to fight these Communists is an obligation upon every Muslim."

[anupmisra]

PRC plays down differences with TSP and praises Pakistan for support
Apparently, the GUBO with Pasha in the last couple of days has been pleasing to the PLA Generals.

Sridhar, I have a nasty feeling that as part of GUBO, the pakis have now give PLA the right to enter at will and engage the ETIM and Uighur in paki land. Joint ops, of course. hence, the feel good statement from the Chinese.

[anupmisra]

Watch this space. This is bound to snowball into a big one.

That Pakistan Nuclear Expert May Be a Lowly Accountant

A self-proclaimed defector from Pakistan's nuclear weapons program is not a scientist at all, but a low-paid accountant for a company that makes bathroom tiles, a director of the company said yesterday.

Iftikhar Khan Chaudhry, who is seeking asylum in the United States, told a number of reporters on Wednesday that he had been at an April meeting -- weeks before India and Pakistan set off dueling nuclear tests -- at which Pakistani military leaders had decided to launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack against New Delhi within 48 hours.

Mr. Khan, at a series of news conferences at the office of his lawyer, Michael J. Wildes, said he was ready to provide the United States with sensitive, secret information about Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, including details about the presence of Chinese and Iranian scientists.

Mr. Sheikh said that Mr. Khan had worked for the company between August 1993 and November 1997. He had a bachelor's degree in business practices, Mr. Sheikh said, and made about $120 a month.

Ahmad Kamal, the Pakistani representative to the United Nations said in a telephone interview that the authorities had been able to track down Mr. Khan's identity through the correct family address on the identification card he had produced -- which the official said was a forgery -- and through his photograph. Lahori Logic

Mr. Wildes, the lawyer who had arranged Mr. Khan's many interviews, said, ''We expected this kind of response from the Pakistani Government. My client has up-to-date, accurate and specific details on the nuclear missile program and other intimate details concerning their nuclear weapons,'' Mr. Wildes maintained.

The American Government appeared dubious about Mr. Khan's claims.

Gee! Another paki nooklear shinetisht punching way above his weight. What is it about these Pie-in-the-sky pakis?

[habal]

This is the true nature of relationship between the US/China and Pakistan - far more akin to WWKism++ that that of a slave master relationship that it is conveniently touted to be when a specious contrast with India needs to be drawn. We are basically lying to each others in this regard and not paying attention to exactly what teh Chinese and Americans are actually doing

WKKs are replicating at individual level what US & China are doing at a global level. Pakistan is a false entity with a fake identity, anyone who engages with a false, superficial individual and wants to gain from him/her knows that the only way is to praise them to high heavens and cater to their whims & fancies. This is what US, China & WKKs are all doing here, the only difference lies in the relative degree the three are going about performing this art.

If you get tough with a superficial, fake, pseudo individual then that relationship is going for a toss unless there are others who are prepared to deal with the individual even worse, then through some management you can portray yourself as the best amongst the worse choices on plate. This blow hot blow cold by US and coochie coos by China should be seen in this light. None wants to loose their position as benefactor of Pakistan, the fake, pseudo and artificial entity. The WKKs are also exactly in same boat, while they are not capable of delivering geo-strategic largesse to the Pakis, they make themselves useful by telling Pakis what they like to hear most. Benefits that they accrue through this behaviour is only marginal as compared to what petty services Pakis perform for US & Chinese largesse/cash/goodies. But what cannot be ignored is that the WKKs are in competition with US, China.

[ramana]

Mort Walker,

Another leg is the US Congress and TSP. There is a group in US Congress which supports TSP no matter what.

The corporations are not a real option.

For many years I was fooled by the Gorver Cleveland dictum "Business of America, is Business!"

After the 2008 finanical meltdown, I realised it always was "Business of America, is Politics!"

The politicians control all aspects of business due to their legislative powers vested in them by the people. They will appear to succumb to business interests but in reality its the business interests that are beholden to them as they have to feed the political machine/troll to advance themselves.

Its in political interests to appear to succumb to business interests as that diverts public attention from the real problem.

[SSridhar]

Sridhar, I have a nasty feeling that as part of GUBO, the pakis have now given PLA the right to enter at will and engage the ETIM and Uighur in paki land. Joint ops, of course. hence, the feel good statement from the Chinese.

Anup, for sixty years now, Pakistan gave liberal access to the Americans which culminated eventually in the domination by the US of its airspace, ports and air strips and bases after 9/11. Apart from such accesses, the Americans directly intervened in political and military processes in Pakistan at will and set the course that Pakistan took. The American intelligence was roaming at will within Pakistan. Of course, all for a stiff price and at the cost of India too.

As the Pakistanis climb down from the American bandwagon and get into the Chinese bandwagon, similar concessions will have to be extended to the Chinese too. It is my feeling that the Chinese may not interfere so blatantly in all aspects of Pakistani lives and screw them up as the Americans have done so over the decades.

[Lalmohan]

china i think will not hesitate to punish pakistan if its objectives are not met

[RamaY]

Lalmullah, per Shivji not even mighty PRC can punish/control TSP.

That means TSP is the real powel behind the past supel-powels (USA and USSR - dividing and conquering them) and is behind the new supel-powels (USA and PRC, playing one against the other).

Piskology aside, I strongly believe that TSP can be destroyed completely and very easily even by a second-grade power like India (I am assuming only USA, Russia and PRC as first grade powers for the time being). It is a completely different matter if India or US or Russia or PRC would want to do that and for what reasons.

The existence of Pakistan is detrimental to Indian interests irrespective of what we think of TNT (TNT Correct - then they are our mortal enemies; TNT wrong - then they are aberration) . That is not the same with the other powers. So TSP will find support from one or the other external power, who see Bharat as their strategic competitor/adversary.

Then there is the myth that one of those external power will come to TSP rescue if/when Bharat moves to solve the Pakistan problem. Irrespective of what the prevailing world political environment, no power will be ready (in the past/present/future) to take on India militarily to protect TSP. In order to avoid such show down, the powers-to-be chose to create, sustain and encourage internal dissidence in Bharat-proper, which we call WKKism.

Then why doesn't the Bharatiya intellect realize its destiny and potential? Due to the interplay of the four internal-instruments as described at http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1141309

[CRamS]

MMS and other WKKs with power to do something (let us ignore the noise from powerless WKKs who beat their breasts and wail) seem to be making a lot of noise but basically holding tight to well known positions.

Come on boss, have you been taking the quack WKK medicine administered by the doc who is championing this latest fad on BR or what? .

First, lets just use our judjement based on facts. Inda has set aside no stoppage of TSP terror as a pre-condition for talks. India has also agreed that any TSP terror is not an impediment to continued talks. What does this tell you? Basically, at the very least, MMS's approach is that India will listen out to TSP's "concerns", and in return, TSP will hold back pigLeTs while talks go on. Occasionaly, TSP sends some reminders to MMS, lest he be undermined by "hardliners", about this agreement through low-level attacks like the recent Mumbai blasts, or Hafeez pig holding a rally in Lahore and repeating the usual TSP demands.

Having surrendered India's principled position and enetring into talks with the above ground situation, how can India not make concessions? It is downhill from there. I mean, the deck is stacked against India. You have TSP, its 3.5, and the KMs. Any non-concession from India will be painted as India's intransigence. Bottom line is that MMS's WKKism has undermined India's stance if not masked TSP's use of terror as an instrument of state policy, and it is held at the same equivalence as any real/imaginary grouse TSP has against India. And most tragically, by going along with this script, what has been overlooked is the real reason for TSP's perfidy: to undermine India's nationhood.

And for proof of this, I refer to you the MMS and terrorist Mush back channel diplomacy, which by the way many eminent Indian & western journalists and strategists have confimred: India's grand concession to TSP is joint love making in Srinagar through the specious "borders are irrelevant" MMS euphemism. Even the recent Geelani statement calling for self determination in POK points in the direction of this US/TSP scripted strategy.

[Neela]

To BENIS or not to BENIS ?

http://arabnews.com/opinion/columns/article481379.ece

Pakistan has missed countless opportunities due to its poor leadership. Former US President Richard Nixon’s efforts in changing relations with China (with the help of Pakistan), not least to contain a potential nuclear threat but also, by taking advantage of the adversarial Sino-Soviet relationship, to open up another front in the cold war with the Soviet Union, resulted in bilateral trade of at least $10 trillion and counting, and what Pakistan got in return was Soviet enmity — that is still biting Pakistan and has wrecked Pakistan's skull, a hostile neighbor like Afghanistan and an ungrateful Uncle Sam.

We should start sincere dialogue with India and seek Indian help to fight terrorism, especially in Afghanistan, and look at India as a potential market for our products. I am sure Indians would love to have a friendly neighbor like Pakistan. We should take full advantage of our deep-rooted relationship with China and Saudi Arabia, and find ways to include India in this triangle. We need a temporary separation from Uncle Sam, if not a full divorce as Uncle Sam is not in a position to help Pakistan economically or financially for the time being. Pakistan doesn't need any military help from the US either. Uncle Sam has a different agenda — the agenda that has already bankrupted the country's economy and is forcing it to default like England defaulted last century due to the wars it fought.