Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 2012

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 29 Mar 2012 14:38

Satya_anveshi wrote:India controlling the fan of puki mosquito laden room is the best strategic leverage for India to gain. We all know macchar man ko kya bana deta hai.

When civvies control power, we should execute war of thousand CBMs strategy. When jernails control power, we should execute war of thousand threats strategy.

Satya san, while what you say makes sense theoretically, it presupposes that our leaders have the b@lls to push through and execute threats across the border. Otherwise, we are the losers.

Satya_anveshi wrote:Pukis are undergoing transformation. Balance is too heavily tilted in favor of jernails. As you imply, civilians don't control foreign policy because they have nothing to show. Once they have something to *show* and *talk* about then they can exercise some leverage over jernails in front of aam janata.

Again, I'm not trying to nitpick but this argument assumes that the puki civvies WILL do something. They are equal if not worse than our politicians when it comes to corruption. Actually, I have a friend who recently retired from the PakArmy and if you listen to the stories he has to say regarding the corruption in the army as well as the defence forces, your argument simply gets blown out of the water.

If only upto me, I will rather give some power totally muft just so people can switch on their TVs to watch the dismal state of their nation via NEWS and then power goes kaput.

Wouldn't you rather it be supplied to villages? Or if we have so much money to throw around, perhaps we can build better roads or pour money into our nuke program. Don't see why power should be given away only for it to be used to aid terrorism in India.

Whatever and Whenever pukis try asking western nations, India should make an annoucement that we could give it easily and west can think of giving something different. Even better if we can make an annoucement before Pakis are about to demand something to western nations. Paki junta will think why our leaders begging things to firangs when padosi wants to give. Their wish is our command to make an annoucement..This will be a huge gain for aman ki ayesha program.

No no no!! I like your strategic thinking, but you have to understand, Indians will never get the respect westerners do. For some reason, people with white skin are seen and treated with reverence! Having brown skin doesn't qualify you for the same respect as the white guy even if you wield the same weapon. Perhaps it is because of years of subjugation of the east. Whatever it is, this mentality can be seen everywhere. Heck, even when I was in studying in my business school, If 2 Indians were talking, and a 2rd white guy comes, both Indians attempt to talk to this person (they crave his attention) and ignore one another. Its subtle but if you observe closely, you can see it in daily life. Its sad but true.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 29 Mar 2012 14:40

guys, chillax. No power from India will go to pak. Period. This talk is meant to be just talk.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 15:10

Vina ji, i don't know why but they don't want anything to do with splitting it up. See Bharat karnad's view on it, he suggests that they don't want more pakistans. But once Karachi and balochistan go, you are right if we can retain strong influence in Karachi, pakjab will have to play ball. Sindh also has a big extremist production centre. I mean balochistan is ripe for a revolution as is Sindh. But we want to stabilise it via this power agreement and others.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2012 17:17

One of the thoughts that occurred to me was that if India supplies power to Pakistan, then the Ordnance factories and Uranium centrifuges in Pakistan will get more power. But as far as I know - the "strategeric" industries of Pakistan are getting plenty of power. It's not as if Paki arms industries are suffering from lack of power. The power there is goes to them. It is mango Apdul who swelters. So technically any power from India would ease Abdul's sweaty backside.

A brief Googal tells me that Shitland produces 20-25000 MW annually. So giving them 5000 MW (over how much time?) would make a significant contribution to Pakistan's non military economy at the expense of dependnce on India. the latter is not going to go down well with Pakhanastanis

But remember that as long as India is offering Pakistan huge amounts of electricity, Pakistan's arguments for Nuclear reactors from non proliferators looks weak. Proliferators like China may still want to chip in - but whether they continue that is a different issue.

Every time Pakistan asks for a nuclear reactor, India can up its offer from 5000, to 7500 to 10,000 megawatts for the "poor people of South Asia"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2012 17:36

Shonu wrote: but you have to understand, Indians will never get the respect westerners do. For some reason, people with white skin are seen and treated with reverence! Having brown skin doesn't qualify you for the same respect as the white guy even if you wield the same weapon. Perhaps it is because of years of subjugation of the east. Whatever it is, this mentality can be seen everywhere. Heck, even when I was in studying in my business school, If 2 Indians were talking, and a 2rd white guy comes, both Indians attempt to talk to this person (they crave his attention) and ignore one another. Its subtle but if you observe closely, you can see it in daily life. Its sad but true.

Shonu these are astute and accurate observations and you might know that I have an entire thread running for documenting this. I mean no insult, but I can't help noticing that the argument you have used here is one that is a circular one "built up" over and above the edifice of a sense of inferiority that blackies feel. Your argument basically says "It is no use offering Pakistan things to wean them away from white people because Pakistanis automatically respect fair skin and will not respect your brown skin"

The problem I have with that attitude is that you are in essence saying "You too are black//brown and you should not even try because it ain't gonna work". Without realizing it, you are actually supporting a brown people's actions are inferior argument and suggesting that it should not even be tried and are predicting its failure. I find this type of argument being used a lot (not just in this case) and I see the argument as a philosophical excuse not to work or do anything to upset the current world order "because it won't work based on the fact that brownies will only listen to whiteys and will not listen to you if you are brown". That is a self-referential argument and I think it should not be used.

Brown listens only to white--> therefore it is no use doing something because it is bound to fail--> because brown will listen only to white. You are discouraging action based on an assumption of inevitable brown failure on the argument that brown will always listen to white, not brown. But that is not an argument for not trying is it? Why rule oneself out? Ruling oneself out is itself an acceptance of inability/inferiority. I have seen people on the forum demand that this sense of inability and inferiority inferiority be accepted as a fundamental handicap.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 29 Mar 2012 18:58

Shiv san, you are right. I never thought about it that way but I guess I was propagating it instead of trying to stamp it out. Interesting ! extremely.

I wish to see India and Indians be seen as projecting power in all its forms. I wonder if I will live to see that day.

Added later - Could you please direct me to the thread you mentioned? Thanks

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Mar 2012 19:02

shyamd wrote:Vina ji, i don't know why but they don't want anything to do with splitting it up. See Bharat karnad's view on it, he suggests that they don't want more pakistans. But once Karachi and balochistan go, you are right if we can retain strong influence in Karachi, pakjab will have to play ball. Sindh also has a big extremist production centre. I mean balochistan is ripe for a revolution as is Sindh. But we want to stabilise it via this power agreement and others.

Because the demographics, politics and economics do not support the idea of splits or mergers with India. Balochistan is a waste land, will not be able to support itself as an independent nation. It has to be dependent on India or Persia, if not a third outsider. Sindhis are a minority in Sindh. This place has been taken over by Punjabis, Balochs, Pathans and Mohajirs. The core reason why the Jiye Sindh movement petered out was a change in demographics. Not to mention, Sindh and Punjab economies are married at the hip. you cannot severe one without hurting the other. The "settled" Pathans in the plains of west Indus are some of the most virulent of Kaafir haters. Do not expect much sympathy from them. Lastly, even if access to the Sea is denied, one has to remember it is Pakjab that is the bread basket of that country. It is Pakjab that is the industrial base. It is pakjab that is the base of the elites and the WKK. Without Pakjab there is no Pakistan. Without Pakjab the other regions are at best like an Afghanistan. Not self sufficient and hence never stable. Indian polity does not have the capabilities to absorb large muslim populations, so a merger is out. For all the above reasons, Delhi does not wish a partition of TSP.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 29 Mar 2012 19:16

When it comes to Pakis, no amount of help from India i.e. providing them electricity or complex medical procedures for their citizens etc is going to conduce any sense of thank-fullness in them towards India. The amount of hate that has been inculcated in their heads since birth against Indians will overwhelm any amount of help we give to them. IMHO you can't kill Paki hate towards India with kindness. I also think that such is the Paki hate towards india that Pakis are willing to do anything that Christian US or Jew Israel tell them if US or Israel tell them that they will help Pakistan to annihilate India. What I am trying to say here is for Pakis, their hate for Kaffirs of Hindustan reigns supreme as compared to their hate of anyone or anything else. They are willing to go out of existence even if it means causing considerable loss to India. How do we tackle such hate? I understand what Shiv saar says of increasing Paki dependency on India by various reason he has mentioned in the past. It remains to be seen what will prevail i.e. their sense of hate towards India or their economic dependency (if it ever happens) on India.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Mar 2012 20:14

shyamd wrote: Lol first thing it is mutual gain. We sell them electricity, get gas via TAPI IPI.

So it is about mutual gain. Can you explain why Russia cuts off gas supply to Eastern Europe during winter months. The logic of mutual gain does not apply there. You may want to argue that Pakis are more concerned about economic matters than Russians.

They are perfectly rational when they did 26/11, so your argument doesn't actually hold ground.

So planning and executing 26/11 was a rational act from Pakistan's point of view. Why? Because they had disagreements with America. They also had internal divisions. Fighting a war with India (or bleeding India) was a better option than confronting these problems. Given this payoff structure/matrix of Kayani & Co, we should strengthen them. 26/11 was the child of a great "tactician". This "rational tactician" should not be confused with "ultra fundoo nutjobs". The latter hate India.

Secondly, once we start trading with Pakis, their preference order (or payoff matrix) would change completely. They will never have any disagreement with America. They will always be internally united. There will be no need to unite the country against India anymore. Given these magical powers of electricity, I think we should also sell it to US and China. You know we might become the permanent member of security council.

You won some barren land on the west and you won a few mountains in Kashmir

Do you want to say "not a blade of grass grows there"?

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 29 Mar 2012 20:26

shiv wrote:
RCase wrote: Ummah leader country, KSA warmly welcomes Indian PM and rolls out the red carpet, whereas Pak President visit is surreptitious.

Watch wannabe Araps, who are unwelcome in the Gulf states.
Don't say that.

Do you disrespect the path that leads from your front door to the street? Do you crap on your front doormat? It has a purpose. Pakistan is strategically located.

Pakistan is needed. Pakistan khappay. The roads leading to Iran and Afghanistan and beyond from India will require the young and dynamic population of Pakistan to protect and maintain. 40% of Pakistanis are under 15. Imagine the Infotech power of these children designing smart traffic intersections (cops in green clothes and stop-go signs) on the Amritsar-Kabul road and algorithms to monitor traffic and disruptions on the highway/railway line (proud men wearing the crescent moon on a green hat with binoculars and bicycle). Better than Greenpiss onlee.

Waah Shiv Saar. Kya Khoob Kaha.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 29 Mar 2012 20:40

RCase wrote:How long will it take for the sense of entitlement to take over regarding bijli with whines emanating from the land of pure - The banias from Hindustan are stealing 'our' bijli from our waters and selling it back to us?

But of course !! check from 31:10, lots of

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 21:04

Abhishek_sharma, and let them cut it off. If Karzai is still there he has cash to invest in ANA/ANP via TAPI. They will factor in cut off, as you saw IPI , iran said they will send gas via ship if pak cuts it off. So don't assume this wasn't factored in.
We sell them petrol etc, they can pay more for it if they want to cancel it. They can try and sell their goods elsewhere or purchase goods from elsewhere. People do react to lower living standards. BTW, as we debate PoK state govt workers are on strike as they are refusing to pay taxes used to fund jihad against India.

The size of our economy should ensure that trade balance is on our side anyway. This is another thing TSPA are worried about, their business interests could get affected. Even if we cut it off, Paki traders will lose.

26/11 is about getting back afpak and keeping US happy, uniting the country. Well, lets say even if this electricity and MFN thing goes through, it will be the civvies driving it with US pressure - so let them fight it out and do a coup on each other as they have already tried. If it doesnt work, oh well EU and the west are giving us better trade deals because of the peace policy (or at least trying!). So we benefit either way.

Next, yes there will still be hatred toward India but economics will take care of the rest.

We know they want to fight in Afpak and get taleban back to power. we'll do what we have to do to make sure they have 2 borders to fight.

Wait and see the game plan.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 21:27

ShauryaT, absolutely. We don't want to have to pick up the tab and pay for the mess. I agree: Re-integration - no thank you.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2012 21:42

Jhujar wrote:I thought i saw the Tweety Bird. Gooffy Gillani Maange Bijli Orr Paani

India offers Pak 5,000MW electricity

Are the chairs free?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Mar 2012 21:54

shyamd wrote:ShauryaT, absolutely. We don't want to have to pick up the tab and pay for the mess. I agree: Re-integration - no thank you.

But, pay we surely will. One way or the other. TSP is our mess. In a co-option strategy, we will pay for tolerating the TSP non sense for a long time. We will be subject to the whims and facies of TSP politics for a long time. We will be "dependent" - even if managed, on access to the Asian land mass. So, no it is not free and maybe we will actually pay more. co-option is only the second best strategy, IMO. It makes sense, only because Delhi has made so many mistakes and is so utterly out of order that even for co-option, the second best strategy, we would have to pray for a lot of stars to align.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 29 Mar 2012 21:57

We have offerings. Pukis just need to arrange for payment. We don't mind if they pay with their own resources or from Unkil's aid dollars or even if Unkil pays on behalf of them. We don't mind selling so long the price is right for us.
To make easy I propose we also extend this payment gateway to select paki nationalized banks so they can buy INRs from $$s and pay in INRs.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 22:26

ShauryaT wrote:But, pay we surely will. One way or the other. TSP is our mess. In a co-option strategy, we will pay for tolerating the TSP non sense for a long time. We will be subject to the whims and facies of TSP politics for a long time. We will be "dependent" - even if managed, on access to the Asian land mass. So, no it is not free and maybe we will actually pay more. co-option is only the second best strategy, IMO. It makes sense, only because Delhi has made so many mistakes and is so utterly out of order that even for co-option, the second best strategy, we would have to pray for a lot of stars to align.

Iran has been our access to the north for decades now without much trouble. Yes we cant choose our neighbours but we do have to come to some sort of understanding and resolve it in some way or another..

What is the best strategy?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Mar 2012 22:56

shyamd wrote: What is the best strategy?

It is a moot point now. The answer also depends on the decade, the question is framed in. For today, my best strategy does not have any appetite in New Delhi. It revolves around a devolution of the Durand line to create two stable self sufficient states of a larger Afghanistan with Khyber Pakthunwala and Baluchistan to provide sea access to it and the rest of Pakjab and Sind as a separate state, with India getting its part of POK back. But this will take decades of preparation and the use of hard power and non conventional force, subterfuge and the ability to risk cards on the line, something I have no hope from Delhi for.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2012 23:01

One thing is TSP becomes emboldened that their strategy is working whenever India offers to deal with them. They become even more recalcitrant.

Let them resolve their contradictions and have a hands off approach till then. Yes Its India's mess and India should let them fester.

Its not yet time to engage them.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 23:05

ShauryaT. But if this happens TSP splits? And we are back to re-integration and all that? Doesnt FATA survive off handouts from slummabad? Is it economically viable? Baloch has the resources of minerals and also gas/oil so could be very much viable i suppose. Balochistan causes headaches for Iran and they are going to collaborate on Balochistan with TSP.

the Skeletons are being put in place for the day, hence why all this wheat, biscuits, roads rail etc are heading direct for pakthun areas.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Mar 2012 23:05

We should supply Pakistan the first 100 KW per year free of charge to show our 'brotherliness'. For the rest of the promised amount take good money from them. Best if they sell us all of their crops to pay for the bijli and petrol.

Lets forget TAPI IPI!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Mar 2012 23:22

shyamd wrote:ShauryaT. But if this happens TSP splits? And we are back to re-integration and all that? Doesnt FATA survive off handouts from slummabad? Is it economically viable? Baloch has the resources of minerals and also gas/oil so could be very much viable i suppose. Balochistan causes headaches for Iran and they are going to collaborate on Balochistan with TSP.

the Skeletons are being put in place for the day, hence why all this wheat, biscuits, roads rail etc are heading direct for pakthun areas.

It is a split and a merge with Afghanistan, the Baluch lands provide sea access to this larger Afghanistan. An overwhelming Pakhtun majority will provide the social stability it needs. It solves the instability of Afghanistan and cuts TSP to size, without damaging its own capability of being a viable state. Pakjab and Sind together are eminently viable. Baluchistan may have some minerals et al, but it is a harsh land. The demographics, socio-economic base et al are awful. No industry to speak of. It is not self sufficient in food. An independent Baluchistan has no chance without strong external support and will always be threatened by TSP on the east and Iran on the west. This is what the Khan of Kalat realized. Its only chance is either with TSP, Iran or as part of its neighbors north.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 29 Mar 2012 23:45

Video shows - Paki Army supporting Afghan Taliban.
The checkpost looks a lot like Salala checkpost that was flattened by NATO attack helos last november.
NATO commanders must have seen such type of videos and determined they shall kill 2 birds with 1 stone i.e. Talib & TSPA.

Clicky

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 29 Mar 2012 23:49

ShauryaT thanks for the perspective. So just to clarify, is co option the best strategy for now?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 29 Mar 2012 23:50

shyamd wrote:ShauryaT thanks for the perspective. So just to clarify, is co option the best strategy for now?

I am resigned to it and pray it succeeds.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 30 Mar 2012 01:03

ShauryaT wrote:
shyamd wrote:ShauryaT thanks for the perspective. So just to clarify, is co option the best strategy for now?
I am resigned to it and pray it succeeds.

Shauryaji and shyam ji..... one simple pooch from this newbie....

what happens with all the co-option strategy if the khakis opt to do another 26/11 on us......

What will be GOI's answer then to us countrymen?? Will we be holding onto the co-option strategy then too??

Haven't we understood that the khakis hold all the cards when it comes to our 2 countries relationships and they can turn the fortunes really fast......

Wouldn't all this aman ki tamsha and piss process be back to square 1 then??

doesn't the GOI need to answer us citizens for the lives that have been lost all these while and is going to be lost even after all the bijli, petrol and whatnot more.....

Are our lives so worthless that our government throws away 167 people on 26/11 to these dogs and these loathsome creatures go scot-free after all they have done.....

really a pathetic strategy I guess.....

I think we are missing our KS ji and his strategic mind to take up the chance once again and cut this snake into as many pieces as possible and make them pay for whatever they have done to us.....

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2012 01:33

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2012/03/2 ... -of-sindh/

Before 1843, Sindh had, as a sovereign state, signed a treaty with the British Raj, allowing the latter’s ships to pass through the River Sindhu. The Raj, in return, had to pay taxes to the Sindh government. Karachi port and the Indus River had thus served as an important route for the British army in their war in Afghanistan

When the British left India creating separate states namely India and Pakistan, Sindh had joined Pakistan on conditions mentioned in the Lahore Resolution of 1940, the base document for the country’s creation. However, since the conditions were not fulfilled, Sindh argues, they have a moral and legitimate choice of withdrawing from being part of the Pakistani federation (also part of the said resolution). Pakistan celebrates the 23rd of March every year to commemorate the event.Mr. Syed was the first to move the resolution in favour of the newly proposed federation, Pakistan, in the Sindh Assembly for the first time; ironically enough, he pioneered the Sindhi separatist movement calling out for complete independence of Sindh soon after the proposed country was created.There have been many clashes with the Pakistani state, demonstrations and rallies in favour of an independent Sindh — the latest show of the Sindhi separatist sentiments on a large-scale public platform was on the very day of March 23 when hundreds of thousands of Sindhis from around the province gathered in Karachi and chanted the anti-Pakistan slogans:
“Na khappy, na khappy, Pakistan na khappy” (We say No to Pakistan) “
Sindhudesh muqaddar aa; Saeen G.M. Syed rehbar aa!” (Sindhudesh is our destiny; GM Syed is our leader)
“Sindh ghuray thee aazadi; Tokhy dyanni pavndi, aazadi!” (Sindh demands independence; you will have to free us.)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2012 01:35

Freedom March by JSQM for Independence of Sindh
The rally was so massive that it was sure to disturb the city’s normal traffic routes – major arteries witnessed sever traffic jams at the time the Freedom March rally passed through.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 30 Mar 2012 01:41

GopiD wrote: what happens with all the co-option strategy if the khakis opt to do another 26/11 on us......

What will be GOI's answer then to us countrymen?? Will we be holding onto the co-option strategy then too??

Haven't we understood that the khakis hold all the cards when it comes to our 2 countries relationships and they can turn the fortunes really fast......

Wouldn't all this aman ki tamsha and piss process be back to square 1 then??.

co-option is not appeasement or the aman ki asha prayers. It does not mean we have no hard response options available to 26/11 type events. co-option take two to tango. Both have to forsake some things and come to a minimum level of understanding of what is achievable. TSP has to stop dreaming of mughalistan, India has to let go of Akhand Bharat. There are many, many more understanding at every level, that will have to work its way through. Hence, I have always said do not club BK's prescriptions with the one MMS is pursuing. They have two different approaches. Although SS Menon is no naive NSA. Hard response options should be on the table in a co-option strategy. It is not a free ride for anyone. It is a managed co-existence.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Mar 2012 02:09

No co-option.. one option is to take back POK, visibly with help of USA and Israel, thereby making pakis more Islamic.. tryst that pakistan has with destiny is Islam. We should do everything in place to make them more pious.

I won't spell out what "everything" is here, but everything, every action, every individual, which makes pakis hate and fear hindu-india more, should be done. tsp should become more pure. Purest should eliminate less pure. drawback is we will lose BD in this process.. But then we never had them either. There must be new BT like figures created to help them hate and fear India more. NM is next LKA, but there isn't anyone to fill the shoes of BT.

This will help in many ways. but most importantly, it will align the internal snakes of India properly in one side, ripe for bahraich 2.0 if played well. else Panipat 4.0..

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 30 Mar 2012 02:26

ShauryaT wrote:co-option is not appeasement or the aman ki asha prayers. It does not mean we have no hard response options available to 26/11 type events. co-option take two to tango. Both have to forsake some things and come to a minimum level of understanding of what is achievable. TSP has to stop dreaming of mughalistan, India has to let go of Akhand Bharat. There are many, many more understanding at every level, that will have to work its way through. Hence, I have always said do not club BK's prescriptions with the one MMS is pursuing. They have two different approaches. Although SS Menon is no naive NSA. Hard response options should be on the table in a co-option strategy. It is not a free ride for anyone. It is a managed co-existence.

Shauryaji.....let alone hard response, if we even try to have soft response, then the khakis will go to the streets of TSP portraying India as the aggressor.......what happens to the co-option strategy then??

Can we supply power, gas, petrol and financially incentivize a country which backstabs us by another 26/11? What justification will the government give for all these incentives to an enemy, to the people of India??

Or will the khakis let the pakis trade with us when we are the aggressors?? Wouldn't they try to unite all pakis behind them if we even squeak of a response?? I guess everything will be to square one then....won't it??

we have to remember one thing all the time that TSPA MAKES A LIVING OUT OF THIS ENMITY and it won't die down without a fight....(or many such fights)....

I am just trying to understand the thought process behind such a strategy Shauryaji.....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Mar 2012 02:45

This one single page of the TSP thread is a keeper - for a long long time I have not seen all the wonders of logic that the Hindu Indian - yes this always appears from the Hindu Indian brilliant minds - about the 1001 profound reasons as to why Paki society and its regime and its state and all that this enmeshed messy structure contains, should be helped to sustain itself and be preserved.

Paki move on 26/11 was surely rational. It takes a Hindu mind in profoundest of secret love and admiration for the brutality and viciousness with which the Paki Islamist mind can pull of explicitly sadistic attacks and torture on innocents - and that his own birth society cannot pull off without the deepest of guilt - to conclude that 26/11 was rational.

No wonder the same minds try to promote even greater tie-ups and "mutually" beneficial or even "military assistance" to protect despots who in turn protect vicious theologians who are all the time asking for elimination of the non-Muslim from their geo-political surroundings.

Rationality applied to Paki actions - implies that those brilliant and rational minds who apply it - have different concepts of utility than the remaining less brilliant minds like us. Rationality has become the buzzword - never properly understood unfortunately by the brilliant minds - but used nevertheless to cover up what they think is "valuable" or of "high utility". For them - preservation of the Paki state is of utmost importance - because even if they do admire Paki viciousness and freedom from guilt, they do not want Paki aam Muslim in close proximity. This is the reason that even after finding such peacefulness, genuine potential for behaving better when economic largesse is showerd on them through virtual jazyia [Malaysian, Indonesian and Saudi increase in jihadist mentality with increasing prosperity must be ignored] - these minds still do not convert.

Rationality ascribed to the Paki on 26/11 is the ultimate insult to the victims of that rationality and a supreme callousness that I have ever seen.

So now paying more jazyia to Pak should by the Paki rationality logic - connect higher utility and payoff to more 26/11's? After all if hitting Indian aaam or torturing captive victims with typical sexual undertones that drive almost every Islamist actions (and Paki Islamist actions in particular) on victims - yields guaranteed electricity or more economic flows, that keeps Paki aam discontent manageable for the Pakis state - rational-choice-theory suggests that Pakis should have ever increasingly sadistic repeats of 26/11!

And those who find going to war to finish off this sadism forever, "costly" or of "lower utility" because it will stop financial flows into India with which an ever decreasing proportion of total population can fly high in profits - or "costly" in human lives - find no problem in repeats of 26/11? Crocodile tears for the aam Indian life at the receiving end of Paki sadism and rationality?

Are we hearing Indian voice talking of Pakistan or are these already closet Pakistani minds masquerading as Indian voices?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 30 Mar 2012 03:15

brihaspati put it rather harshly but truly anyone looking for working definition of sophistry in service of a self-destructive agenda need look no further than the postings on this page. Distilled essence of a civilizational flaw.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 30 Mar 2012 03:33

GopiD wrote: we have to remember one thing all the time that TSPA MAKES A LIVING OUT OF THIS ENMITY and it won't die down without a fight....(or many such fights)....

I am just trying to understand the thought process behind such a strategy Shauryaji.....

I recognize the word "rational" is not popular on this board, when it comes to the TSPA. But, IMO they are a fairly rational bunch, who care for their lives the same way we do. When it comes to fight, they will run away to live another day - because they know, they will loose. They may live, but live a miserable existence, as hired guns for others, while their own society that feeds them rots. So yes, they have a choice, to live miserably or learn to live with a powerful India, which they can never defeat. If they continue to be pin pricks on the lines of 26/11, Delhi has so many response options on the table that even an inept PM of India could exercise them and put these guys in their place.

In an all out war, the best we can hope to achieve is give these guys a thrashing and maybe buy some peace for a decade or two but then what? Their idea of revenge for 1971, led them to support Khalistanis and the HM in Kashmir - in both cases they knew they could never wrest from India. A Musharraf started planning for revenge for Siachen, since 1982 to culminate in 1999 with Kargil. Again, a stupid plan that they hoped would succeed banking on the stupidity of Indian leaders. They were wrong. So, we can go back and forth this way. They can keep on dreaming. The result is 30K+ deaths in TSP in the last decade and we did not even do anything. All this for being hired guns and being stupid.

Fortunately, there are enough folks in TSP, who realize this now and desire a different trajectory. A trajectory of a negotiated half way house.

For those who say, let them stew in their own juices, I do not support such an unmanaged process. Remember TSP is our problem. We would rather fail controlling it than leave it uncontrolled and who knows, where its venom may fall.

As for B Ji's comment, the day, he can get article 370 removed, UCC implemented and a Ram Mandir built in India, is the day - I will consider support for his prescriptions of "all out war", to "finish off" the Paki sadism as a remote possibility. Till then, I will only pray he looks at the realities on the ground and learns to accept them. Anyone, who has ever compromised has been called a traitor by the die hards. so, that is par for the course.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Mar 2012 03:39

>> Fortunately, there are enough folks in TSP, who realize this now and desire a different trajectory.

Evidence?

If they continue to be pin pricks on the lines of 26/11, Delhi has so many response options on the table that even an inept PM of India could exercise them and put these guys in their place.

It is interesting to note that 26/11 was a "pin prick".

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Mar 2012 03:43

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> Fortunately, there are enough folks in TSP, who realize this now and desire a different trajectory.

Evidence?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1261681

The Silent Majority: Which forms the core of Pakistan and is the vanguard of liberalism and modernity. Though like the name suggests, it has never been seen or heard from, it can be effectively used to re-assure the terrified west (terrified presumably due to the extremists and columns about extremists pouring out of Pakistan)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Mar 2012 03:45

Pakis are thoroughly guided by Islamist tradition in both tactics and strategy. Nothing in material terms, economically or electrifyingly attractive - will ever deter their long term innate sadism in thought and aspirations. The theology is unique in freeing the follower of any guilt for having such desires and indulging in them -on the "outsider". They will take all that we give them materially - and still plan and acquire strength and resources to carry out their genocide on us.

War on Pak is not about revenge or buying peace - it is about obtaining soverignty over the land and its people, so that no third party has easy presence to use them against us. So that we have the means to eliminate the institutions and finish off the core that sustains jihad. Undermine and destroy every last vestiges of the brains that sustain the jihadi memes and know how to use the texts for the purpose.

Article 370 and other issues mentioned are intimately connected to the continuing existence of a free and independent separate Paki state. Once the Paki state is no more - 370 will happen very quickly. Very very quickly.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Mar 2012 03:57

TSP is our mess in many ways. It is our land and our people gone astray with active support from our frenemies.
It needs to be de toxified before absorbed.
Till then help but not at the cost of ourselves.
Help can be offered in such a way that we should not burn ourselves in the process.( No terrorism no 26/11 no bums etc etc)
Dont mind if we go extra mile to that extent.
The help should be such that it should reduce the dependence on the 3.5 friends.
It is a long shot. But only India can offer that help.
For this to occur, TSP should get into pangas with 3.5 friends.
now it is in luv-hate relations with unkil.
only unkil has the kind of power to checkmate or stymie India to a limited extent. India is engaging unkil in big way. unkil will not have the energy to continue in the same vein as it has done in the past.
We need to engage with tspians with switch on and off but not completely closed.
Lots of hot samosas and chai is ok with loud farts in the meanwhile.

3.5 friends can never be a long time ally of good will for tsp. They are there to checkmate the big elephant only. tspians are gloating over this help not realising they are going to sink into a septic tank filled with jeeehaadi scums.
Hoping for a vacuum bum exbloshun in tsp making them realise the above facts.

3.5 can never do a japan or korea or germany on tsp as there is no enemy for unkil in our region.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Mar 2012 04:04

Do the septic tank bacteria resent their septic environment? Do they recognize their septic tank is being hostile or difficult for them? Do the bacteria want to change the environment that they have developed themselves to thrive in?

Time and again we project our own likes and dislikes on others and model others by what we expect naturally of ourselves.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Mar 2012 04:09

brihaspati wrote:Do the septic tank bacteria resent their septic environment? Do they recognize their septic tank is being hostile or difficult for them? Do the bacteria want to change the environment that they have developed themselves to thrive in?

Time and again we project our own likes and dislikes on others and model others by what we expect naturally of ourselves.

tspians are gloating over this help not realising they are going to sink into a septic tank filled with jeeehaadi scums.Hoping for a vacuum bum exbloshun in tsp making them realise the above facts.