Indian Police Reform

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Dec 2008 19:03

Sanjay,
There is a CCTV footage from outside the train station which reveals a police in white shirt(might be off-duty or in mufti) firing with a pistol at the terrorists as they came out of the station. the terrorists fire a burst at him and he is hit in his upper body and falls down. he is not wearing any protective gear not even a helmet.
this policeman must be sashank shinde going by press reports. two police constables with .303 rifles and wearing helmets then drag his body to safety. from the look at the videos it seems he died as soon being hit.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Dec 2008 03:35

I agree. That's why I want to see if we can track down and debunk that Mumbai Mirror report.

I understand that there were 6 armed policemen at CST. I don't know if this includes those who had weapons in the weapons' room.

We know at least 3-4 engaged the terrorists.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Dec 2008 19:22

Was reading "Freedom at midnight" and came across the fact that the British left their legacy onto the Indian police in the form of the "Watchers Bureau" with every CID in India. It consisted of an extensive network of beggars, salesmen, shopkeepers etc and was a very potent weapon for the police.

Do we have this bureau even today, albeit in a different name or have we completely disbanded it?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 06 Dec 2008 19:38

Sachin garu>> I remember those days, when RSU , Naxals were hunted down like wild boar and law restored, later the UCLA etc wanted Rajan case as model for covering up the crimes ( REC Suratkal)

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 07 Dec 2008 00:33

I think that we should replace all .303 and even SLRs of Police with A-7s and INSAS at the rate of 100,000 per annum and give a pandu a training of atleast 30 days every two years in their use.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Dec 2008 06:41

Raj, I disagree.

Rifles are not appropriate armament for a civil police force. However I agree that every armed police battalion and every district armed reserve and even the India Reserve Battalions should be fully equipped with INSAS and LMGs.

The 9mm carbines should be phased out of all military and CPMF use and given to the police after being thoroughly serviced and a 9 mm pistol standardised for constables and officers alike. These can be augmented by a limited stock of INSAS or MINSAS carbines at the station along with pump action shotguns. This should be a very adequate armament for an urban police force.

Giving isolated and very small police posts in the hinterland INSAS rifles when such posts are completely indefensible is a recipe for disaster. Better to arm those cops with pistols, carbines and shotguns. Adequate for self protection but not so lucrative for a Naxal attack shopping for weapons !

The priority however to me is to get every armed police battalion and IRB and even the CISF combat effective for the war against Naxalites.

Sum, I expect the organization is still there. India's police criminal intelligence network is pretty effective. It is the fact that politicians interfere and pressure that results in efforts being wasted.

Also - apparently at CST of the 34 RPF personnel there, 6 were armed but none of them in the passenger area ! No RPF constable was armed on that night. One - Jillu Yadav - grabbed a rifle from a frozen GRP policeman and returned fire - being hit in the process.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 07 Dec 2008 10:08

Sanjay wrote:Raj, I disagree.

Rifles are not appropriate armament for a civil police force. However I agree that every armed police battalion and every district armed reserve and even the India Reserve Battalions should be fully equipped with INSAS and LMGs.

The 9mm carbines should be phased out of all military and CPMF use and given to the police after being thoroughly serviced and a 9 mm pistol standardised for constables and officers alike. These can be augmented by a limited stock of INSAS or MINSAS carbines at the station along with pump action shotguns. This should be a very adequate armament for an urban police force.

Giving isolated and very small police posts in the hinterland INSAS rifles when such posts are completely indefensible is a recipe for disaster. Better to arm those cops with pistols, carbines and shotguns. Adequate for self protection but not so lucrative for a Naxal attack shopping for weapons !

Also - apparently at CST of the 34 RPF personnel there, 6 were armed but none of them in the passenger area ! No RPF constable was armed on that night. One - Jillu Yadav - grabbed a rifle from a frozen GRP policeman and returned fire - being hit in the process.

Kindly note I am saying replace .303 with INSAS. If you are giving a rifle to a cop than you are acknowleding that rifle is required, so replace a useless rifle with a better rifle. There are around 500,000 bolt action rifles in circulation, all of which should be replaced.

Also 9mm caliber is extremely inadequate. It may be counter intuitive but pistol is way more difficult to master and is many times more inaccurate than light rifle like insas. pistol has only one point of contact with body i.e. hand of shooter, while rifle has 3 points of contact and 4th if the barrel / magzine has ledge/ground support. Due to slow speed of 9mm bullet, inaccuracy and its rainbow trajectory, blunt shape etc it is only good for 10m range. For penetratiing thick clothes, magzine bandoier and even BPJs assault rifles are required.

In any case, India DOES NOT manufacturer any good 9mm carbine. Less said about sterling is better. So in current anti-terrorist role 9mm carbines are too limited. INSAS 5.56mm are good light weapons suitable for anti-terrorist roles and off course A-7 (AK version) 7.62mm can be used are probably better for CT/COIN/Police

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 07 Dec 2008 15:32

The issue of equipping Police with modern arms is not afflicted with Corruption neither it is too costly (i.e. budget issues). The equipment like weapons, ammo and BPJ will come from OFB or PSUs, so no corruption issues. While the center subsidizes the cost of such equipement from 50-80%, which means Bombay Police or the whole nation Police can re-armed by spending just 1% to 5% of their annual budget. The real reason is INDIFFERENCE-RED TAPE-DISINTEREST-CHALTA HAI

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Dec 2008 16:20

Raj Malhotra wrote:INSAS 5.56mm are good light weapons suitable for anti-terrorist roles or off course A-7 (AK version) 7.62mm can be used.

Delhi being a high security zone it is very normal to see INSAS, Sterling, AK, A-7, SLR on cops.

Any guesses why OFB still manufactures SLR?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2008 10:37

In view of terrorism becoming the major challenge to India should this thread linger in this forum or move to the Strat forum. Its not for Mil forum as Police is not a military unit.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2008 10:49

X-posted...

VikramS wrote:A lot of food for thought, especially since there is talk about POTA etc. I was surprised by the last line about police casualties. Also John Snow, what do you feel about getting transferred 27 times in 9 years?

http://suchetadalal.com/blog/?p=30

I am posting a message from Ashish Gupta, sent to me by a top senior revenue service officer. It has already been forwarded to a few hundred people, so I assume there is nothing confidential about it.

Gupta, like my other police friends expresses great anguish about the death of Ashok Kamte in the terror attacks on Mumbai in November. It is a rare man who evokes such respect and admiration from his fellow officers… Kamte’s demise is truly a loss and it is a bigger tragedy that many of us have got to know about this brave, sincere but low profile officer only after he is no more with us.

But I post this, not as a tribute to Ashok Kamte – I expect my police friends to take the trouble to write about him rather than merely talk about their feelings.
I am posting Gupta’s message because he is currently posted in the PMO and writes movingly about force and the need to understand the circumstances in which they work.

I agree with Gupta when he says the police force is hated (or at least distrusted by the ordinary person today). They are seen as people who will fix anything for a price. And why not, they would think. If the going rate for a constable’s job is Rs two lakhs and each transfer, especially to lucrative postings costs a lot of money, why would they waste time protecting the people?

They are running an enterprise and the government job and uniform is just a license or permit. It is also a job with astonishing powers over ordinary people. Look at how the police routinely pump “the accused” with chemicals called the ‘truth serum’? If these chemicals (which are known to leave lasting damage on the brain) really worked, why don’t we know who killed Arushi Talwar? Shockingly, the Indian media is so happy to grab leaks of so-called confessions of people pumped with this serum that they don’t ask questions. The police also play a big role in corrupting the lower judiciary and the kick-backs from various magistrates courts go several layers up their hierarchy. Postings at courts depend on their ability to keep the food chain thriving. That is one reason why cases go on forever.

The police clearly need to wake up to some internal cleaning – while we the people fight to get them better equipment and training. Will they please prove to us that better resources will be used for public good and not against the public? We have no signs of that as yet!

The same goes for the government’s revenue agencies and India’s bureaucracy. The revenue agencies are mostly venal and spineless and have no compunction jailing honest people, cooking up and fabricating a case and using the extremely corrupt lower judiciary to create a nice network of illegal ‘wealth creation’. I have seen this first hand.
IAS officers have actively supported their political bosses in delaying infrastructure development and tinkering with policy for corrupt gains. They have also helped the neta class to pre-empt over half the security force and resources for VVIP protection.

Where are the honest officers when this is happening right at the next table or the next cabin? They bury their heads and pretend not to see or hear. Nobody, but nobody, stands up to object to wrongdoing. At best, they quit the system. I am sure some of you will say that the same applies to the media. Well, yes it does and the media suffers the same credibility crisis. Things will change if we on the inside demand accountability from those who are within our own fraternity, even if it makes us unpopular. But how many of us have the courage to do that?

Fortunately, this time Mumbai has sent a clear and unequivocal message that they are not interested in they sympathy of politicians. It took over a week before the neta-class got the message. Until then, several politicians had put their foot in their mouth. Now they are staying away.

Read what Ashish Gupta (CSE 1987 IITK and an IPS officer - he’s at the PMO now) has to say. I sympathise with him, but lets see some internal clean up too.
---------------

Dear friends,

As I write to my batchmates of business school, I grieve the death of my batch mate of IPS – Ashok Kamte in the terror attack in Mumbai. Kamte was a very bold, professional, sincere cop who was also a National level weightlifter – very brave and handsome. I grieve his death. But the reason I write to all of you is this -

Another Terror attack in Mumbai and I expect the same stereotype stand from the political parties, same response from the media and the same anguish and feeling of helplessness from the public. Rightly so, they ask, what is the Government doing about it? The opposition parties will exploit the situation to say that the Government has been soft on terror, should invoke POTA like legislation to curb terror, should hang Afzal Guru, etc. If legislations stop terror attacks then Maharashtra should have been safe – it has MCOCA in place (MCOCA has all the ingredients of POTA). Even Delhi has DCOCA, but the terror strikes happened here too. If deterrent strong action of hanging terrorists is an answer, then Punjab terrorism should have being put to an end after hanging the assassins of Indira Gandhi. But it did not. While legislations and awarding deterrent punishments are very essential in our fight against terror, then are by no means
sufficient to put an end to terror.

The public at large rightfully ask – if US could stop terror attacks after 9/11, why can’t our security system do the same here?

Friends, we will continue to have such attacks till we as a nation and as a society do not decide to invest in the police of the country. We expect a first-world police reaction from a third-world police. You will be surprised to know that even today many of our police stations do not have vehicles. As for connectivity amongst police stations, while police stations (PS) have radio communication sets (RT sets), in some States the PS do not have an extra battery to keep the sets working – this means that they switch open their RT sets every two hours to check if there is any event of any consequence! This is when even the poor in our country can afford mobile sets! We still have weapons that are outdated. We have no centralized database to check on identity of person detained.

This implies that if I detain a suspicious person in Delhi and he says that he belongs to some village Begumangalam in district Nalgonda in AP, I have no way to immediately verify his identity - unlike the US where a centralized databank will let you check his antecedents in a matter of few seconds. While there is about 1 policeman for every 300 people in US, in India we have one policeman for every 1000 people – and mind you the cop of US is supported with technology, communication and cyber connectivity and vehicles, which increases his capabilities manifolds.

Cases take decades to get conviction, unlike the US where it is disposed off in a months time. What will a criminal be afraid of if he is not punished? Police leaders are hardly kept in their places of postings for a significant time so that they can improve situations – I, for example, have been transferred 27 times in 9 years of active policing in UP!!! Political insulation from professional work does not exist. We always talk of Intelligence failure – but what infrastructure we have there is a matter of concern. There are many more issues of manpower, equipment, infrastructure and the like. But we as a society are not bothered – or is it that human life, and more so a life of a policeman, is too cheap? Or is it that we are not aware of the deficiencies in our security systems?

Each political party will make use of another terror attack as an opportunity to malign the other and claim that it will improve security situation when it comes back to power. As if POTA or hanging Afzal Guru will! The reaction of the Government is also on the same lines – will legislate a strong anti-terror law, will create a federal agency, will bring in police reforms, etc. Haven’t we heard the Governments in power repeat the same after each terror attack, but still nothing happens. All political parties, whether in power or outside, are the same. They misuse the police system to meet their selfish ends. Unfortunately these terror attacks are only ‘action events’ for the media to keep people hooked on to the TVs. But hardly we have informed and consistent discussions in media to improve the security situation.

Friends, the reason I write this mail is because I feel that you all need to make yourself aware of the realities of the police. Police is hated, to say the least. But because it is hated, you don’t keep yourself away from the malaise and refuse to raise a voice to improve it. Police impacts you on a day-to-day basis – your sense of security and dignity depends upon that. But why do we, educated people, not raise enough hue and cry so that the political parties are forced to change the policing system and hence improve your security? Friends, please become aware of the realities of policing and beware of rhetoric of political parties – the solutions they offer are superficial and will not improve security situation. You can’t build an edifice of security organisation with a weak and hollow foundation.

Excuse me for my outburst and discontinuous thoughts – I kept writing what ever came to my mind. But please make yourself aware and let others know where the lacunae lie and build public opinion so that security systems improve. Else please be prepared for mindless killings and falling policemen (by the way, did you know that the number of policemen who have died in the line of duty over the last 10 years is more than the total Army personnel who were killed in all the wars together since 1947? We lose almost 3 policemen per day!!).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Dec 2008 11:03

what would be a good choice for CQB weapons for the city/state police QR teams that are being formed around India ?
MP-5 or the micro tavor i.e the zittara ? MSMC perhaps ?

it would be nice if they choose weapons based on commonality so that the forces can train and if needed operate together.
cross-training would become really difficult if each dept decides to go its own way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2008 11:24

I prefer the tavor based ones as they have proven track record and stopping power.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Dec 2008 02:23

Ramana, the Tavor standard variant is an assault rifle with excessive stopping power and range for urban CT ops by police. For an army - yes.

For the police, the 5.56 * 30mm MINSAS might be a preferred option. Moreover, let's think about marksmanship training as well. For an elite force such as the NSG, fine a combination of the latest weapons is quite understandable. For cops, I believe simplicity is the key.

Suggest also reading these:

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/de ... rorist.htm

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/11/stories ... 741000.htm

I still keep asking the question - why not simply embark on a two stage program to phase out all 9mm weapons from the army and CPMFs (replacing them with Tavor-type weapons) and issue the said weapons after an overhaul to the police plus a systematic overhaul of every firearm currently in the police inventory. Those same 0.303s could have taken out the terrorists at CST if they worked and the cops knew what to do.

For QRTs, right now the emphasis seems to be on AKs and MP-5s - not bad but training is the key. Although, I have my concerns about the Bangalore unit running around with SLRs.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Dec 2008 10:33

Sanjay wrote:For QRTs, right now the emphasis seems to be on AKs and MP-5s - not bad but training is the key. Although, I have my concerns about the Bangalore unit running around with SLRs.

As far as I know Bangalore Police do not have a commando type unit. My understanding is that even Karnataka Police do have an ANF (Anti-Naxal Force) which does the combing operations in naxal-hit areas. They do carry SLRs etc., and many of the members were once part of the STF setup to capture the brigand Veerappan.

Some units did a flag march in Bangalore recently, but from their uniforms they looked like the force was the Rapid Action Force which is a CPO. I guess only Tamil Nadu Police have a dedicated commando wing (and also a commando school). When a dreaded terrorist was holed up in Bangalore nearly 4 years back, it was the Tamil Nadu Police commandos who reached quickly and in a midnight operation "encountered" the lot.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2008 10:45

I think there is a need to examine the failure of command in the Mumbai Police. It looks like the top echelons folded or hid.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2008 12:03

Sanjay wrote:Ramana, the Tavor standard variant is an assault rifle with excessive stopping power and range for urban CT ops by police. For an army - yes.

For the police, the 5.56 * 30mm MINSAS might be a preferred option. Moreover, let's think about marksmanship training as well. For an elite force such as the NSG, fine a combination of the latest weapons is quite understandable. For cops, I believe simplicity is the key.
..................
For QRTs, right now the emphasis seems to be on AKs and MP-5s - not bad but training is the key. Although, I have my concerns about the Bangalore unit running around with SLRs.

sanjay, I wasn't talking about the Tavor standard variant but the micro-tavor.

it is a carbine/SMG type weapon(if you use the 9mm conversion kit) used by SF.

as an upside it is also produced by OFB as the zittara.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Dec 2008 13:23

ramana wrote:I think there is a need to examine the failure of command in the Mumbai Police. It looks like the top echelons folded or hid.

Looks like such an examination is taking place. Today's Hindu has the report under the title Top police officials under fire for errors of judgment
Excerpts...

Mumbai’s top police officials, highly placed government sources said, failed to take charge of the Police Control Room, the nerve centre of the city police’s overall command structure. Nor did they use the force’s wireless system to rally their men demoralised by the loss of several of officers, notably the heroic joint commissioner of police and chief of the Anti-Terrorism Squad, Hemant Karkare. Instead, one top official chose to station himself and two aides inside a bullet-proof vehicle parked at the National Centre for the Performing Arts Building near the Oberoi Hotel, thus cutting himself off from the broad flow of operations

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Dec 2008 17:17

I understood what you were saying Rahul. It's not that I don't understand your argument - there are many good points about the Tavor family. However, I am thinking in terms of having to teach a police force who are not exactly weapons literate or adaptable to use a bullpup weapon plus maintain it. Furthermore, I do not think we can lose sight of the cost factor. Too many MP-5s and carbines are around for us not to maximize their transfer to the civil police. Well maintained, those weapons can deal with almost anything.

Sachin, the Bangalore commando unit looks very much like the RAF except it has PASGT helmets and body armour. Believe me when I say it's running around with SLRs !

Ramana, every police force in the country has to look carefully at its high command. Looking at the Hindu report you referred to, the failure to deploy the SRPF in numbers and to rush teams and weapons to the local police was utterly inexcusable.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Dec 2008 17:25

Sanjay wrote:Sachin, the Bangalore commando unit looks very much like the RAF except it has PASGT helmets and body armour. Believe me when I say it's running around with SLRs !

Yes I have seen them at reasonably close quarters. They had SLRs, but my doubt was whether they were part of the Karnataka Police or part of the RAF which may be stationed in Bangalore.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2008 23:37

I think the unfortunate ambush of the ATS chiefs made them wary. Knowing Mumbai politics and underworld nexus they didnt know if it was accidental or delibrate.
By the way please post such insightful ideas in the Lessons learned thread too.

thanks, ramana

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 12 Dec 2008 23:57

ramana wrote:I think the unfortunate ambush of the ATS chiefs made them wary. Knowing Mumbai politics and underworld nexus they didnt know if it was accidental or delibrate.
By the way please post such insightful ideas in the Lessons learned thread too.

thanks, ramana

Ramana this is absolutely dangerous stand. I was meaning to post this several times but just withheld from posting for many reasons.

The "encounter" of ATS cheifs and other encounter specialist coiniciding with the larger game plan of terrorist attack is a *clear* indication that a senior policitian being aware, in-cahoots of the sponsors, stakeholders, members involved in perpetrating the terrror attack. It was a tengential operation meaning to 1) settle score 2) distract something very meaningful that was going on at the time 3) add confusin to the whole perspective of terror attack investigation.

The resultant re-org / restructure post attack provides some clues as to who are benefitting from the said attacks and they hold clues about this.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2008 00:30

I dont know and am saying thats what I felt when I hear of the DIG locking himself in a bullet proof car and becoming incommunicado. He fears for his own safety. Why? It could be mis-reading the situation on his part but could be due to earlier instances?

This is worse than 1962 China war. I think there is Pawar at the root of everything that goes wrong in Maharastra. I dont have proof but only hunch. I got that feeling when I first saw pawar on Timesnow TV announcing the RR Patil resignation. And recall the ATS chief being assured by R.R. Patil that soon it will be all over so dont quit now.

Even if the two terrorists had a lucky hit there is background in Maharashtra politics that scared the Police head echelons into self protection by going underground.
I dont think there will be an inquiry.

If you read the 'confession' the terrorist claims they ambushed an incoming vehicle by hiding in the bushes. But if you go by time line inthe news thread the two terrorists went to top of the Cama hospital bldg and then came down and ambushed the jeep.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 Dec 2008 00:32

I am compelled to say BINGO.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2008 01:02

Deccan Chronicle 11 Dec 2008

Ex-Army men falter in ‘race’ for police posts

Hyderabad Dec. 11: The physical test for recruitment of constables proved to be too tough for ex-servicemen who had applied for the post. Most of the ex-Army personnel were 35 to 40 years old and could not compete with youth in their early 20s in the mandatory five-km race. They faltered before reaching the finishing line. Enquiries revealed that not a single ex-serviceman was selected for the constable post in the state. “The age gap affected their chances,” said Mr N. Sreenesh Kumar, zilla sainik welfare officer. “A 40-plus ex-serviceman cannot be as agile as a 20-year-old youth. It is difficult to cover five km in 25 minutes.”

Mr Sreenesh Kumar said the government had also turned down his demand to give some relaxation for ex-servicemen. “They are trained people and have worked in different terrains,” he said. “I feel they should be given relaxation in the race. Or they can be considered for desk job in police stations.” He requested the government to provide two per cent reservations for former military personnel in police recruitment. However, a senior police officer said that only a common test could be held for constables and a separate selection cannot be made for “desk jobs”.

“We do not segregate,” he said. “It all depends on the requirement. A constable selected for policing may have to do a desk job too.” The Hyderabad district collector, Mr Navin Mittal, said instead of relaxing rules, the ex-military personnel could be given a crash course in physical exercise, general knowledge and other subjects. Mr Mittal added that there were 3,000-odd constable posts in Hyderabad district and the number of applicants was limited. “I am sure given proper training every applicant will qualify,” he said.

I think the root cause was making the ex-servicemen compete for constable jobs when they already have the training to become head Constable after initial orientation training. This is how the Indian system shoots itself in the foot. An IAS officer told me that the Indian way was to negate any advantage that ex-servicemen have and make them start over. This ensures that they will not reach the top rank while still vigorous and prevent military takeover!

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 13 Dec 2008 04:22

Ramana, some of those physical tests for entry into the constabulary are truly viscious. Recruits have died on them. It has been proposed in the past for direct ex-servicemen recruitment into the NCO cadre of the CPMFs but I am fairly certain that it was largely a failure because of the MHA protecting its turf.

As an aside, did you notice the comments made in the rediff article I posted about there being thousands of SLRs in armouries and in police stations ? Why wasn't the full strength of the Mumbai police committed that night ? Where was the SRPF ? I only saw them come in later.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 14 Dec 2008 20:07

MUMBAI:DNA----- If you thought failure on the political front was responsible for the November-end siege of Mumbai, you will be shocked to know the game plan of senior IPS officers for the state.
At a meeting called by chief minister Ashok Chavan to discuss police reforms, a top IPS officer suggested that the government buy AK-47s from the grey market. Citing the example of bulk purchases of AK-47s to combat terrorism in Punjab, the officer said the deadly weapon could be procured for as low as Rs15,000 apiece.

The cabinet sub-committee which is planning the draft for police reforms held a meeting with top police officers and officials from the home ministry. The panel wanted to know the suggestions of director-general of police AN Roy, Mumbai police commissioner Hasan Gafoor, SS Virk, D Sivanandan, chief secretary Johny Joseph, and others.
“The lack of strategy and shortsightedness of the officers leading the police force stunned those present,” said a source who attended the meeting.
Asked for a budget requirement to overhaul the force, another top officer said Rs5 crore would suffice, leaving the ministers present wondering what kind of shopping list could be prepared for such a paltry amount. The government has proposed an investment of at least Rs100 crore to buy advanced equipment and upgrade infrastructure, including the intelligence network. None of the officers present knew the price of an AK-47.
The suggestion to buy AK-47s from the grey market to save money was shot down. With the case of the policeman whose gun got jammed when confronting the terrorists at CST still fresh in public memory, no one was willing to take a chance.

“After a series of meetings to review security, I feel it is time the IPS and IAS officers who are leading the police and home departments are made accountable for their actions,” said a senior cabinet minister. While the lower rung is expected to take on terrorists without the basic infrastructure, their leaders seem to be taking things lightly, he said.

The government has also ordered an inquiry into the lapse of Rs80 crore sanctioned to the home ministry in the last financial year. Outgoing home minister RR Patil had indicated a fortnight ago that the funds were lost because of procedural delays by the finance ministry. But preliminary findings indicate the proposal from the home department was forwarded and the finance department had given its consent. Delay in executing plans after acquiring funds is an issue that needs to be addressed.

The continuing security reviews have also revealed that the Rs100 crore police reforms proposal that the Chavan government is considering was discussed at least five times before. Home ministry sources said that after the July 2006 train blasts, the Vilasrao Deshmukh government had given its consent to a similar proposal, but it never saw the light of day.

Babus will always get away, come what may, Hail Red tape

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 15 Dec 2008 02:17

To be frank, the Maharashtra and Mumbai police never did recover from the Telgi scams Both were dealt body blows when the top cop Tyagi was dismissed along with a host of other senior officers. That alone proved how deep the rot had set in.

This was coupled with a "use and throw" policy towards the rank and file with notable examples being made of the encounter specialists. The situation now in the middle ranks is such that no one is willing to put their neck on the line to "get the job done" for fear of consequences. And in the MAH and MUM police, it is impossible to do anything without bending rules.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 16 Dec 2008 21:48

Frame by frame: How Kasab was captured

14 Dec 2008, 1937 hrs IST,

A Chowpatty resident shot the entire sequence of events during the police encounter with two terrorists on November 26. Abu Ismail and Ajmal Amir Kasab, after killing 55 people at CST, fled into a bylane of Cama Hospital, where they killed three top cops. They used the jeep to spray gunfire near Metro, later hijacking a silver Skoda near Oberoi. ASI Omble accosted the duo. Ismail was shot dead, Kasab arrested.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 836565.cms

In total there are 58 pics.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 19 Dec 2008 12:05

I was going through various CAG reports about the Police Equipment modernization. The conclusions generally are:-

Police persons (even in high risk terrorist affected states) are firing an average of 2-10 ONLY rounds per annum for training. Which in effect means practically no training.

On average only 20-25% of the weapon procurement budget has been utilized. Babudom wins in any competition for being a bunch of as*h*les

Sanctioned budgets for procurement of vehicles, command & control centres, training centres, wirless equipment etc also not utilized. I think babus are only interested in making money not spending time governing the nation or doing their duty, as usual

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 20 Dec 2008 19:28

Citizens fund bulletproof jackets for cops
Dharmesh Thakkar
Saturday, December 20, 2008 8:22 AM (Mumbai)

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mu ... &type=News

Candle light vigils, peace marches, human chains and citizen movements have mirrored Mumbai's mood after the gruesome 26/11 attacks.

But a group of young businessmen, who want to do more, have raised Rs 30 lakh to buy 100 bullet proof vests that they plan to buy and donate to the Mumbai Police.

"The police can fight the terrorist without fear when they feel protected and secure with proper bullet proof vests and body armour. Our friends and relatives just gave the cheques over the dinner table when we decided do something instead of blaming the government," said Kishore Luthria, CMD, Tian Group of Hotels.

Luthria himself is a victim of terror. His family once owned hotel Sea Rock that was among the 12 targets of the 1993 serial bomb blasts that rocked the city.

The hotel was extensively damaged and could never recover. And so Luthria got together with others to do his bit.

"We always talk about our rights but what about our fundamental duties?" said Tanya Chhabria, a contributor in the initiative.

This group decided to make a point, an expensive point.

"I have become an enlightened citizen and will not remain a passive mute spectator. It is time to act," said Samita Sawney, another contributor.

The group has given samples of bulletproof vests to the Police Department for its approval. The vests are similar to ones used by American and Israeli forces and cost about $500 a piece.

But their donation could buy them less than planned. The import of vests attracts import duty.

So they have written a letter to the state government asking for a waiver. Now with money in the bank, they are waiting for the government to act.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Dec 2008 21:24

Avinash R wrote:Citizens fund bulletproof jackets for cops

Honestly speaking I hope these bullet proof jackets actually reach constables, HC,SIs and Inspectors who actually do the grunt job

. And not to the IPS bade afsars

. It is a good initiative from the citizens, but if they can ensure who the bullet proof vest goes to, that would be great.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 21 Dec 2008 09:45

^ Kamte and Karkare were both IPS officers. If better bpj's had been provided to them they may have lived today.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 21 Dec 2008 10:48

Avinash R wrote:^ Kamte and Karkare were both IPS officers. If better bpj's had been provided to them they may have lived today.

Second that. It is easy to dump on the IPS/IAS when they are leashed by the corrupt political class.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 22 Dec 2008 15:37

Avinash R wrote:Kamte and Karkare were both IPS officers. If better bpj's had been provided to them they may have lived today.

Not challenging you on that part

. All I meant to was - "let the bullet proofs be given to police men who actually face life threatening challenges, rather than going by the rank hierarchy".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2008 21:52

Sachin wrote:
Avinash R wrote:Kamte and Karkare were both IPS officers. If better bpj's had been provided to them they may have lived today.
Not challenging you on that part . All I meant to was - "let the bullet proofs be given to police men who actually face life threatening challenges, rather than going by the rank hierarchy".

From te Mumbai terrorist attack news and timeline, it appears the cumbersme bpjs that the officers wore did not allow them to duck. They are like armour on the knights and dont allow movement.

So what is needed is lightweight armor and not the razai type stuff.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Dec 2008 00:31

Can folks do a web search of suitable bpjs and post them in the lessons learned thread? Thanks, ramana

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 23 Dec 2008 01:59

ramana wrote:X-posted...
VikramS wrote:A lot of food for thought, especially since there is talk about POTA etc.

http://suchetadalal.com/blog/?p=30

I am posting a message from Ashish Gupta, sent to me by a top senior revenue service officer. It has already been forwarded to a few hundred people, so I assume there is nothing confidential about it.

I am posting Gupta’s message because he is currently posted in the PMO and writes movingly about force and the need to understand the circumstances in which they work.

Fortunately, this time Mumbai has sent a clear and unequivocal message that they are not interested in they sympathy of politicians. It took over a week before the neta-class got the message. Until then, several politicians had put their foot in their mouth. Now they are staying away.

Read what Ashish Gupta (CSE 1987 IITK and an IPS officer - he’s at the PMO now) has to say. I sympathise with him, but lets see some internal clean up too.
---------------

Another Terror attack in Mumbai and I expect the same stereotype stand from the political parties, same response from the media and the same anguish and feeling of helplessness from the public. Rightly so, they ask, what is the Government doing about it? The opposition parties will exploit the situation to say that the Government has been soft on terror, should invoke POTA like legislation to curb terror, should hang Afzal Guru, etc. If legislations stop terror attacks then Maharashtra should have been safe – it has MCOCA in place (MCOCA has all the ingredients of POTA). If deterrent strong action of hanging terrorists is an answer, then Punjab terrorism should have being put to an end after hanging the assassins of Indira Gandhi. But it did not.

The public at large rightfully ask – if US could stop terror attacks after 9/11, why can’t our security system do the same here?

Friends, we will continue to have such attacks till we as a nation and as a society do not decide to invest in the police of the country.

Each political party will make use of another terror attack as an opportunity to malign the other and claim that it will improve security situation when it comes back to power. As if POTA or hanging Afzal Guru will! The reaction of the Government is also on the same lines – will legislate a strong anti-terror law, will create a federal agency, will bring in police reforms, etc.

Hanging Afzal or a POTA like law wont improve the security situation, but it sends out a signal, that the govt. of the day is focused on dealing with terrorism in a tough and uncompromising manner. Insisting that tough laws against terrorism and tough action against terrorists takes place is simply a way of communicating what needs to be done to the public in a way that they can understand. Anyone who whines about these demands being non serious and ineffectual displays a serious case of naivete about politics.

That being said, Ashish Gupta's laments about politicians, public apathy, bureaucracy and so on is just an ineffectual rant that is a little self serving at best and dangerously delusional at worst. Its not any less dangerous because it is the fashion of the day in pop culture today.. Blaming the politician and self flagellation after all is the Gandhian way. Gupta's lament is also self serving since any charges against the soft policies of this govt. are deflected by claiming that such criticism is irrelevant and all parties are saying the same thing! After all he is serving in the PMO and if this letter's thesis gains legs, it will atleast get him some brownie points with his master, if not police reform.

The venality of the 'corrupt pandu' and the 100 Rs he asks from you in lieu of a challan and his inefficacy in fighting terrorist commandos are two different issues entirely. If they are related, its only because the actor is the same in both cases.

I live in the US, and even the United States with its 1 policeman for 300 people would have struggled to contain such an invasion from the sees. I shudder to think of 10 commandos coming on speed boats and landing on pier 39 in San Francisco on July 4 or Jan 1. Leave alone the US, any major city in the world would have faced trouble against such a commando attack. The fact that nothing has happened in the US since 9/11 is a result of other actions and their unique circumstance, not that they have 1 officer for 300 citizens or that their police look so cool with their gee whiz gadgets.

What other actions you ask? Simple, they ignored the whole world and sacked the elite of two countries after 9/11. This put the fear of God in their opponents and they shut down their covert and subliminal war making machinery down.

What other circumstance? They dont have a huge local muslim population. Before someone reminds me, let me say it myself that 99% of muslims dont have anything to do with Jihad, but that means that 1% do. 1% of 150 million is 15 lakh Jihad footsoldiers and that is a lot.

The only way we can win a truce in this war is to turn the focus of our response outwards. Police reform can wait or proceed in parallel, and is important for its own sake, but it can not replace of this outward directed response.

Consider for a moment, the complexity of the Mumbai attack.
1) They trained a batch of 30 commandos for more than an year.
2) They trained them in using different kinds of weapons. They were able to use their grenades with efficacy and were able to use a weapon snatched from an NSG team member.
3) They trained them in hostage taking and negotiation.
4) They trained them in negating standard room clearing techniques used by NSG and other such commando units world wide. E.g. When they were cornered in one room by Sandeep unnithan's team, they knew that NSG would set up a small door blasting charge. They then barricaded the door, so the force of the blast would be directed outwards. This injured the commandos along with Major Unnithan and he was then shot dead.
5) They were trained in Seaman-ship and knew how to handle a boat.
6) They were provided with Satellite phones and training to use it.

Such a complex operation requires state support and there is no Army/Police force in the whole world that could have stopped them from creating the carnage that they did.

You can accuse Pakistan of anything, but you cant accuse them of being illogical. They attacked the Indian embassy in Kabul first with a huge IED that claimed the life of the Indian defense attache there apart from levelling a large part of the embassy. They didnt even bother to hide their trails and the attack was traced to the highest levels of the Pakistani govt. When Indians did nothing by way of retaliation, they stepped it up a notch and killed 200 Indians in Bombay and shut down that city for 3 days. If Indians still do nothing that punishes the perpetrators of these acts (apart from talking about police reform) the next step is either a WMD attack that will cause massive causalities or an Mumbai X 4 attack on more than one target at the same time.

Go ahead and diddle your police reform till that time..

----------------------
Link about terrorists using mp5s
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1210367

Link about terrorists barricading the doors to negate door blasting charges
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/11mumterror...

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 23 Dec 2008 02:37

ramana wrote:Avinash R wrote:
Kamte and Karkare were both IPS officers. If better bpj's had been provided to them they may have lived today.

Is it really about better bpj's. Can you really face a terrorist wielding an assault rifle with 9mm and a 'better' bpj. Was it stray bullets that hit kamte and karkare or were they fired upon by terrorist? I think the whole debate about bpj's is taking focus away from the main issue that is plaguing the Indian police.

if police believe that they can do 'encounter' type stuff with these new breed of terrorist then no bpj's can help them. That mindset need to change.

PS: In Delhi encounter Inspector Sharma was not even wearing bpj when he was shot at. And so were nearly all of the Crime branch folks that we saw pictures off. The bpj's are available to all of them. With this mindset even a better bpj cant protect you. It can only reduce your chances of getting killed due to your own mindset.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 23 Dec 2008 11:06

CalvinH wrote:Can you really face a terrorist wielding an assault rifle with 9mm and a 'better' bpj.

answer is no, there is also a urgent need for better weaponry but karkare died after being hit in the upper chest inspite of wearing a bpj. the bpj he was wearing was manufactured to withstand only pistol rounds not rifle rounds. so if they were equipped with better bpj's, meant to withstand rifle rounds, like the one the citizens fund is currently procuring they might have lived today.

CalvinH wrote:Was it stray bullets that hit kamte and karkare or were they fired upon by terrorist?

Karakare post-mortem report

The post-mortem report details the sequence of events that led to Karkare's death. All the four bullets that hit Karkare were fired from the weapons used by the terrorists. Also the police have every detail of the wireless messages sent and received by Karkare during the Mumbai attacks.

Investigators say the terrorists landed up at Cama Hospital by mistake. They entered the building and killed a guard and asked another one how to get inside.

After spending about 20 minutes in the hospital premises and not knowing where they were, the terrorists came to the hospital gate.

After getting information that the terrorists were hiding in the area, Hemant Karkare, Additional Commissioner Of Police Ashok Kamte and Inspector Vijay Salaskar came in one vehicle towards Cama Hospital at a very low speed.

From behind the trees Mohammad Ajmal Amir Kasab and his associate fired at the police van. They just fired because it was a police vehicle and ended up killing the three senior police officers.

CalvinH wrote:if police believe that they can do 'encounter' type stuff with these new breed of terrorist then no bpj's can help them. That mindset need to change.

If the plan was to 'encounter' the terrorists they would have sent only salaskar to the scene. he was the man with past experience for this type of job. kamte and karkare who were more of the investigating type were not needed if the plan was liquidate the terrorists.
I think the confusion that was created during the initial hours with each channel having it's own version of events, one even calling it a drug related gang-war(cnn-ibn) and creating panic like situation in mumbai neccesiated the deployment of senior officers like kamte and karkare to bring the situation under control and which ultimately led to their deaths. senior officers, sitting in the background, are required to guide to their juniors during such situations to neutralise the threats, here the seniors came face to face with terrorists and were ill-equipped to deal with them.
the rule is never lose the leader of the team if you dont want the team to be left in state of paralysis. after these 3 senior leaders were lost the mumbai police was in a disarray. note this report.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 89#p585689

CalvinH wrote:PS: In Delhi encounter Inspector Sharma was not even wearing bpj when he was shot at.
And so were nearly all of the Crime branch folks that we saw pictures off.

Again he was there on a intel gathering mission rather than going in to shoot the terrorists. If they had known there were terrorist in that house they would have been better prepared.