The IAF History Thread

[CPrakash]

http://rapidshare.com/files/21037419/De ... s.pdf.html

This is the new coffee table book. I know the people getting this out. They do it for airpower periodical too. I am getting the my first copy. I hope you can get yours.

Cheers,

Mukul.

Having seen this book recently, a very dissappointing book - nothing new in terms of photos or pictures. The book is a collection of articles analysing the Indian conflicts with a bit of history thrown in. the thing that keeps coming to the mind is 'why?' why was this book written? its neither here nor there.

[vivek_ahuja]

Hmm...Long time since this thread was seen alive. Time to open it up again with some new stuff...

Location: Lohegaon
Number 6 Squadron super connie before its retirement in march 1984, by which time it had been replaced with the IL-38 in the Maritime Reconnaissance role.

[vivek_ahuja]

Note the squadron insignia

[vivek_ahuja]

[Phil Camp]

Dear Vivek,

these aircraft saw life after leaving 6 squadron IAF. They went onto INAS315, Indian navy where they were replaced by IL-38.

Regards Phil Camp

[vivek_ahuja]

Dear Vivek,

these aircraft saw life after leaving 6 squadron IAF. They went onto INAS315, Indian navy where they were replaced by IL-38.

Regards Phil Camp

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I should have been clearer in my statements.

In any case, here is an image of the Navy Connies after retirement:

[vivek_ahuja]

Jagan, you might be interested in this pciture:

IAF Liberator in service:

[vivek_ahuja]

[Rahul M]

jagan, what happened to your 1971 book ??

[Jagan]

Rahul,

good progress being made on Volume 1. (war in east)

Volume 2 (war in west) is another matter altogether.

[Rahul M]

why is that ?

[Jagan]

why is that ?

Oh nothing much really. we are taking it one step at a time. writing about the whole 71 ops will take a lot of time. the idea is to get the eastern sector done first and get it out. Its also the easier of the two. Western SEctor ops are rather too vast and if we try to tackle both at the same time, it can take us half a decade or more to get it done.

[Rahul M]

any tentative time frames for the first part ?

[vivek_ahuja]

Here's something to revive this thread.



The Gnat Mk-1 with under-wing drop tanks

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

The HF-24 Marut Mk-I:



Mark-IT Prototype:



-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

The HA-31 Basant Mk-II Agricultural Aircraft in the production configuration



-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

The Revathi Mk-II light aircraft:



-Vivek

[ramana]

Did the Maruts ever get used in action?

[Rahul M]

^^^
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arut2.html

PART II: MARUTS AT WAR

[vivek_ahuja]

Did the Maruts ever get used in action?

Yes. That was in the 71 war (western sector). Very effective in the ground attack role, combining their large payload and robust (even if underpowered) design. The aircraft was apparently known as the 'super-Hunter', in connection with the Hunter's known ground attack abilities. The following is a quote from the aircraft's history article by Polly Singh:

Flying approx 200 sorties during the two week war, Maruts ranged 200 NMs into south Pakistan striking Hyderabad and Talhar airfields and interdicting railway systems at Mirpur Khas and Rohri. Maruts also helped finish the route of the Pakistani army’s 22 Cavalry at Longewala. A Marut flown by Sqn Ldr KK Bakshi of 220 Squadron also shot down a PAF F-86 Sabre on 07 Dec 71 (Flg Offr Hamid Khwaja of 15 Squadron PAF). No aircraft were lost to air action although by the end of the war three Maruts had been lost to ground fire (two POW, one KIA) and one lost on the ground.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... Marut.html

-Vivek

[malushahi]

Vivek, thanks for sharing all these awesome pictures. Would you also have any pictures of Commandos or Helio Couriers outside of what one can find in Conboy & Morrison?

[Jagan]

Vivek, great picture of the Revathi Mk II - i have been trying to find a good picture of it with no luck.

Wonder how many of these were built.

[Rahul M]

the first marut pic is in fact the most dramatic one of it I've seen.

[vivek_ahuja]

Vivek, great picture of the Revathi Mk II - i have been trying to find a good picture of it with no luck.

Wonder how many of these were built.

Jagan,

In this regard you might find my collection of around five decent quality photographs of the Revathi Mk-II quite useful! Let me know if you need them for some use.

Also, regarding the Mk-II numbers built. As far as I know the picture I posted was for the preproduction aircraft being evaluated by the IAF ASTE in late 1972. Apparently the decision to go for production or not was to be decided in the first half of 1973. I have been organizing my personal archives in proper order for some time now in terms of years. As a result, the pictures I posted today are those from 1972 that I found. I will organize the data for 1973 and beyond in the next few days. I might be able to get some numbers for you then. I know that the remaining four or so images of the Revathi Mk-II are not prototype variants. The question I need to clear for myself as well is whether they were pre-production or production aircrafts. I will let you know the details as I get them at this end.

Would you also have any pictures of Commandos or Helio Couriers outside of what one can find in Conboy & Morrison?

I might. Same issue as above for Jagan's question. Let me sort out all of my stuff and see what I can dig up.

Thanks.

-Vivek

[Ved]

Did the Maruts ever get used in action?

.... A Marut flown by Sqn Ldr KK Bakshi of 220 Squadron also shot down a PAF F-86 Sabre on 07 Dec 71 (Flg Offr Hamid Khwaja of 15 Squadron PAF).

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... Marut.html

-Vivek

Live & learn - thats something I never even heard of!

[vsunder]

I have this book and it has loads of information about the HF-24. There is so much info
about the engine deals, about the design team that Tank took along with him
to HAL. The Russians are portrayed as being crooked in the engine deal
since they were scared about the MiG-21 deal. Roshan Suri is portrayed as someone
that Tank thought sabotaged the first take off. Apparently according to the book
the date of the first flight was at Rahu kalam or some such thing. Suri's family
begged him not to go and he was under a lot of psychological pressure. Tank thought
that Suri deliberately and prematurely retracted. Tank always test flew all his aircraft.
For the Marut the Indian govt. put their foot down and Tank was very upset since he
was not allowed to test fly the plane.
Supersonic wind tunnel tests were conducted in Switzerland under V.M.Ghatage.
Tank was very impressed by the engine built by Brandner who was at Helwan, Egypt.
Brandner came to India and AVM Ranjan Dutt ( who incidentally is Jackie Shroff's father in law
and Ranjan Dutt is married to a Belgian countess) met him at Mumbai and brought him to
Bangalore. Anyhow this book is the definitive book I have read of the impressions of the
German side in the Hf-24 story. I wish I can scan the pages and put it somewhere.
It is a coffee table book. The book stresses the "advanced concepts" that Tank introduced
in the HF-24. Area ruling, swept wings, tricycle landing gear etc.

HF-24

The sole reviewer of this book for Amazon needs a thump on his head. He writes Tank went on to design a transonic fighter for the "Fizzle air farce".

[Jagan]

HF-24
The sole reviewer of this book for Amazon needs a thump on his head. He writes Tank went on to design a transonic fighter for the "Fizzle air farce".

Must be one of the speed reviewers of amazon, amazing how he could get it wrong!

I have this book and it has loads of information about the HF-24. There is so much info
about the engine deals, about the design team that Tank took along with him
to HAL. .

I remember reading the book as well, though i dont have a copy. Also another good resource on the Marut is Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava's article http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... lider.html

Vivek,

One of these days I will sound you out ont the Revathi images - I might need one or two to illustrate an article.

regards

Jagan

[ramana]

Thanks Vivek. I only hope LCA gets a chance one of these days.

ved, I see there is an officer for LCA induction!

[Jagan]

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1. ... r=karlekar

My friend Yusuf

He was an example in our troubled times

My friend Mohammad Yusuf Khan left for the hereafter on August 9. The last time we talked, it was on the telephone in September last year. I told him that I was going to disappear to finish my book on the study of human aggression in the mirror of our savagery toward stray dogs and would call him as soon as I had finished. I did precisely that in July, only to learn from his daughter Anisa, who responded on his cell phone, that he was very ill. As she broke down, I was overcome with a feeling of foreboding. On August 10, his son, Mansur, gave me the terrible news.

I met Yusuf in 1990, when I was at the Indian Express, and in charge of its editorial page. He had brought a 'middle' which he wanted published. It was one of those rare days when I had time on my hands. So I asked him to sit down and began reading, racing to the end in one breath.

Yusuf, who retired from the Indian Air Force as a Wing Commander, was a Flight-Lieutenant during the India-Pakistan war in 1971. Flying a Canberra bomber, he was a part of the squadron that had destroyed the radar at Pakistan Air Force's critical base at Sargodha. Furious, PAF interceptor-fighters had come in relentless pursuit, following Yusuf's plane to Agra, where his squadron was based, and strafing the runway as he landed.

The plane was severely damaged, and it was a miracle that he survived. The next day, the word went round in parts of Agra that a Muslim IAF pilot had guided PAF jets to the city!

Yusuf asked as I finished reading, "Would you publish it?" His quiet dignity and the clear stamp of honesty on his face, told me that the incident had happened. There was another reason why I thought so. In 1985, Ram Nath Goenka, the legendary proprietor of the Indian Express, had sent me to Ahmedabad to take charge of the paper's office there, which had been attacked by a rampaging mob during the vicious communal riots of that year, and which had escaped destruction thanks to a last minute appearance of an Army patrol.

I had heard people say barely after I had stepped out of the Ahmedabad airport that one Major Karim, heading the Army unit deployed in the city, was actively supporting Muslims! I soon found out that it was not 'one Major Karim' but Maj-Gen Afsir Karim, now a distinguished authority on national security, who was heading the Army formation in the city, and whose firm and absolutely impartial handling was rapidly bringing the situation back to normal. Yet, I wanted to be doubly sure and said, "Please call me tomorrow. I'll let you know". I talked to a friend who knew several IAF officers based in Agra at the time. He confirmed that the incident had occurred and that the other IAF officers were furious about the canard about Yusuf.

I sent the piece down for publishing, and left for Kolkata (my hometown). Yusuf called me a couple of weeks after my return and told me that the piece had not been published. I checked; it had been lost. I requested him to bring the carbon copy. When it was published, he told me, "Frankly, I did not think you would carry it".

We became friends after that. Later, while writing my book on Bangladesh, I checked with him almost every reference to matters pertaining to Islam. He was deeply religious, steeped in the finest tradition of his religion and remarkably knowledgeable about it.

What has always struck me, his experience in 1971 did not embitter him because, as he said, while some Hindus spread the canard, others stood solidly by him. Against intolerance of all kinds and a patriot to his marrows, he became a fluent writer who strongly condemned both terrorism and fundamentalism. I will miss a dear friend.

The country will miss a brave man who did not let vicious slander lose his perspective and who was a living example of how deep religiosity could go with unshakeable religious tolerance -- an example of unmistakable relevance when Jammu & Kashmir is in flames.

[Aditya_V]

I have a problem with the above article. From why I recall now Pakistani fighters ever got to Agra. B-57 Bombers in thier night raids reached Agra and this was in 1965 war quiet a few times. I don't think they werethat sucessful in 1971 in getting to Agra. Offcourse Fissele-ya kept claiming they shot a 100 fighters in Agra, Gwailor etc.

[Jagan]

I have a problem with the above article. From why I recall now Pakistani fighters ever got to Agra. B-57 Bombers in thier night raids reached Agra and this was in 1965 war quiet a few times. I don't think they werethat sucessful in 1971 in getting to Agra. Offcourse Fissele-ya kept claiming they shot a 100 fighters in Agra, Gwailor etc.

Aditya, I had a similar problem with the article, but i had checked and this is what came out.

- 1965 the PAF never attacked Agra. But in 71, the PAF did attack Agra - on the nights of 3/4 Dec and 4/5 Dec. 2 B-57s on the first night and 1 B-57 on the second night. Since this incident happened after returning from a raid, it has to be the night of 4/5 Dec. and it was a B-57.

But problems still remain - especially these parts

Furious, PAF interceptor-fighters had come in relentless pursuit, following Yusuf's plane to Agra, where his squadron was based, and strafing the runway as he landed.

No Pak interceptor had the range or wherewithal to chase Canberras so deep into indian territory .

The plane was severely damaged, and it was a miracle that he survived.

No Canberra was damaged on the ground so this is an exaggeration. Wg Cdr Yusuf himself wrote in one article that he and his aircraft had a narrow escape.

The next day, the word went round in parts of Agra that a Muslim IAF pilot had guided PAF jets to the city!

Wild speculative rumours among common population and media were quite common in those days and while they seem strange now, wouldnt have extracted any response from those in uniform in those days. Its possible one of the late wg cdrs friends may have pulled his leg on the irony (a muslim pilot nearly bombed by another muslim pilot) but i find it hard to believe that fellow IAF officers would deliberately spread a canard like that. AF officers were not so ignorant as the media and general populace

[Lalmohan]

ignorance runs deep, i recall someone (who shall remain nameless) telling me on complete and utter authority from insider knowledge how jaguars were taking off from pune to raid pakistani targets during the '71 war!!

[vsunder]

Jagan: I will scan the 8 pages on the HF-24 in the Kurt Tank book and send it on to you.
It has a page with columns of very detailed specs that are rewarding plus lots of anecdotes
about the design, testing phases and engine deal. However, where should I e-mail the pdf
scans. We should meet sometime esp. since there is an air museum close to where you live
which has a F-104. Maybe a picnic on a crisp fall day there. Other interested parties I have
your mail ids so you will get offprints. I am a little leery on putting them up on a web page
in case I get Chalaaned for copyright issues. Apparently Roshan Suri claimed he had "maraka yoga"
in his horrorscope. The first flight is described with "lemons" under the chocks, recitation of mantras
etc etc. must have been quite amusing to the German contingent.

[John Snow]

Apparently Roshan Suri claimed he had "maraka yoga"
in his horrorscope. The first flight is described with "lemons" under the chocks, recitation of mantras etc etc. must have been quite amusing to the German contingent.

Sunder garu for the benefit of readers '"maraka yoga" is that time when the "horoscopee" is likely to die.

Also I dont know if you deliberately called it "horrorscope" in any case good pun intended or otherwise.

Is it possible to join you picnic as I may be nearby to fetch you drinks..

[Rahul M]

vsunder ji, thanks a lot ! both the article and the pics are excellent. the cockpit pic simply blew me away !

[ramana]

vsunder, Thanks a lot for the file. its very illuminating. As a schoolboy I used to treasure a copy of the Indian Express of the first flight of the HF-24. It was there for many years till I went to college and got cleaned out.

If one reads the saga of the HF-24 development and compares to LCA there are many similarities- technology overreach with regard to engines, dependence of foreign powers (UK- Rolls Royce, USSR- Mig Engine, USA- Engines and Egypt-Engine) with vested interests, penny pinching(4.7M Pounds was chump change to get engine designed and tech transfer) and a big failure to image on the services side. Once they had the Mig engines from Koraput, why didn't they fly a few of them with that engine.

Dr Tank was one good engineer- flying the full scale mock-up as a glider, trying out the Egyptian engine on one wing and the 703 on the other wing, and the bench tests to find out the Mig engine characteristics.

So how did HAL not learn the lessons from him? Or did the old folks just retire away?

[vsunder]

Ramana, Tank was a superb engineer. Look at the end of the first column on pg. 262. Here the
author writes that the wind tunnel tests showed flow separation. But Tank has the intuition
to persist and realize that Reynolds number does not matter for sharply tapered wings and he is indeed
proved right for the flying model. That is the mark of someone who has a very deep intuition.
I see it in mathematics all the time, It is very easy to manipulate; do this do that and that is considered
good mathematics by 99% of people. But what is really prized by the remaining 1% is the deep understanding
of what can happen. That is very important to know at the outset, once one has the deep conceptual understanding the manipulation part is totally trivial. After all if I gave someone a problem the person doing
the problem knows its true already so that is already a piskological advantage. The real thing is if I dont know
something is true or not true. Then the deep intuition functions and I decide it is not true, then eventually either
theory or experiment bears me out, then I have understood something way beyond knowing how to manipulate a bunch of equations or writing a program or whatever. This HF-24 episode with Tank is a classic illustration of this fact and an object model for young engineers, Tank does not believe the wind tunnel data because his deep insight tells him that the existing equations or understanding is flawed. But sigh!! all the youngsters/ young engineers give gaalis to each other on this forum and pontificate.

As far as lessons learned by HAL, it was possibly frittered away. There was a troika there Ghatage, Nilkantan and Dhawan and the HF-24 article does say Tank was impressed by what he saw in India. But it needs a vision,
and political leadership and will and off course money. If you combine all this I have no doubt you will get
a world class institute and a world class aircraft. Tank also had leadership qualities. Note how the ground crew wanted to re-build the HF-24 after Suri's sabotage in 14 days because they were very attached to Tank and also the aircraft. So here you see his leadership qualities to inspire dedication to the work at hand.

[Vivek K]

Sunderji, Can I possibly get the HF-24 file as well vivdhruv at gmail dot com. Thanks.

[vsunder]

Vivek K you should have the file anon!

Another thing to note is the meticulousness. After Suri's sabotage, the ground crew wants to fix the
aircraft in 14 days. But Tank says no. The entire aircraft is disassembled and pieces bench tested and then
re-assembled. No "jugaad" route. Tank wants to make sure everything is calibrated properly and the test data
from the first flight is clean for building onwards. In this sort of game you cannot build on sand and there are no short cuts. Its slow, tedious, dirty work at times. Yes, yes at the end maybe a sleek aircraft.

[Ved]

Ramana, Tank was a superb engineer.

Many years back I heard that Tank was involved with designing the Messerschmit (sp?) 109, Luftwaffe's famed fighter of WW2 - is he old enough?