Chandrayan-1 moon mission

gogna · Post by **gogna** » 25 Oct 2008 16:54

UPrabhu
SandeepA

Please stick to the topic, this thread is about ISRO not about your personal political agendas, please take it to humor and joke thread about modi being PM he has much chance as Raj Thakre.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Oct 2008 17:16

When will the next step with firing the thrusters take place?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Oct 2008 17:45

Dilbu wrote:When will the next step with firing the thrusters take place?

Done today successfully.

Apogee now 74715 Km.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Oct 2008 19:23

First Indian space craft to cross 36,000 km.

How to define that spirit?

Some inside and outside of India have been critical of the Chandrayaan moon shot, saying that even at its relatively modest $78 million price tag, the cost of the mission represents an expenditure that the country can little afford, given the fact that millions of its inhabitants still live in conditions of crushing poverty.

But the mission's advocates point to Chandrayaan as a first step toward scientific goals that are worthy of the expenditure. Some of these goals are of a practical nature, such as determining the prevalence of helium-3, a rare isotope that could be used as an energy source, and constructing a three-dimensional map of the lunar surface, which could facilitate future missions for mining lunar resources. And some of these goals serve pure science, such as experiments designed to learn more about the moon's origins.

They also point to the burgeoning space programs of China and Japan, and emphasize India's need to prove itself worthy of a share of the growing market for launching private satellites.

All these goals, poetic and prosaic, add up to vision -- long-term, beyond-the-immediate-horizon vision. This is the kind of vision that is given much lip service in our own political rhetoric. But when it comes to practice, some in America have said in recent years that we can't afford it, just as some are still saying that now -- not in the midst of a Global War on Terrorism, not as we face the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, not as we contemplate enormous projected budget deficits.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 25 Oct 2008 21:49

gogna wrote:UPrabhu
SandeepA

Please stick to the topic, this thread is about ISRO not about your personal political agendas, please take it to humor and joke thread about modi being PM he has much chance as Raj Thakre.

gogna: I fail to understand your grouse.

That post by UPrabhu is about Chandrayan mission, thus is perfectly legitimate for this thread, and more so because it facilitates ISRO scientists. For a significant national achievement facilitation by every citizen is his BIRTHRIGHT, more so if he is elected representative of the country, and even more if he is Chief Minister of a state, or even a Prime Minister not directly elected by citizens.

Thank you. -Arun_S (Admin hat on)

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Oct 2008 21:57

gogna wrote:UPrabhu
SandeepA

Please stick to the topic, this thread is about ISRO not about your personal political agendas, please take it to humor and joke thread about modi being PM he has much chance as Raj Thakre.

Gogna, what is wrong in a CM congratulating scientists and expressing his joy at this achievement? I wish all the "science" secretaries and all the babooz in the state's science department made a pilgrimage to the SDSC tirth!

And without the CMs and PMs supporting this endeavor in their own way, we would not have come this far.

I admit I found Modi giving his speech enjoying. In fact, I have a question for you, can you gather videos of other politician's speech about this particular event?

[PS: Edited out some offending words. Thanks for the gentle reminder BRAdmins - just got carried away]

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Oct 2008 22:27

Raja Bose wrote:
My heart skipped a beat when I saw the 'Bad News' headline. Nitesh boss, please no more faux-sensationalist headlines....dont want to become a heart patient at so young as age

Chandrayaan is a different animal designed built and launched independently by India. Lets not measure its performance by 'success' or lack thereof of other country's probes.

Please do not dump on Nitesh. In his own way he pointed out why Chandrayaan is better, a lot better!

Kaguya was looking for water where the sun shines and even partially and was expecting it to find it there on the first layer itself with HDTV? What crap. It is like looking for water in any desert crater and hoping to find it! Should not they look for palm trees first? And then hope to find an oasis?

Any serious astro-geologist will be looking to spend several years and several missions to uncover all the truth about moon and yes that includes water!

Chandrayaan is the *first* comprehensive moon probe - period. It is packed with so many instruments that scientists all over the world are salivating for the results. For example, MIP will be the first probe to moon which will spectroscopically analyze the tenous moon atmosphere [yes!] on its way down and also hopefully analysis the dust kicked up.

And to the question of the NASA MMR and Mini-SAR costing more than the mission, that is because mini-SAR is coveted technology and it is at the bleeding edge. I am sure NASA had to sweat it out to miniaturize it and fit it into the power requirements [or rather the power availability on Chandrayaan], which in itself will give invaluable experience to ISRO! Similarly MMR was miniaturized. And that is citing just two examples from a "foreign" space agency.

Of course our DDM being DDM, they do not ask the probing questions on the after-effects of miniaturization and how it will help the aam-junta. Like some of the concepts and experience and even experiments finding its way into IRS satellites! Imagine an Earth mineralogy mapper to map out minerals say in India. Or check the level of Ground and Sea Pollution? The benefits are immense, it is up to us to use it appropriately!

disha · Post by **disha** » 25 Oct 2008 23:04

Compiling the numbers to get a gauge on the hard work done on the ground by ISRO

Intended - Earth Bound

Orbit Insertion - 257 x 22,858
First Orbit Raise - y x 37,421
Second Orbit Raise - y x 73,925
Third Orbit Raise - y x 199,277
Fourth Orbit Raise - y x 269,201
Moon Capture Orbit - 1019 x 386,194

Achieved

Orbit insertion - 255 x 22,860*
LAM Firing 18 Min - Oct 23 - 305 x 37,900
LAM Firing 16 Min - Oct 25 - 336 x 74,715

* PSLV performed well since it gave Chandrayaan a nice velocity oomph to achieve the desired Apogee. I believe the Apogee numbers matter [and note it is always the LAM that is fired]

Also note the confidence of ISRO on coming out with numbers based on a plan and then sticking to the plan. The last part [sticking to a plan] calls out for immense discipline!

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 26 Oct 2008 00:02

UPrabhu wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkhdmx-JxCs

Is there any english transcript version for this speech?

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 26 Oct 2008 00:29

Chandrayaan-1 nears 75,000 km height, inches closer to Moon

PTI | Bangalore

India's Chandrayaan-1 has covered 20 per cent of its journey towards Moon as ISRO scientists on Saturday performed the second orbit-raising manoeuvre.

The lunar spacecraft's on-board 440 Newton Liquid engine was fired for about 16 minutes from 5.48 am.

With this engine firing, Chandrayaan-1's apogee (farthest point to earth) has been raised to 74,715 km, while its perigee (closest point to earth) has been raised to 336 km, ISRO spokesperson S Satish said.

ISRO chairman G Madhavan Nair termed Saturday`s orbit-raising operation as "record-breaking".

"So far, Indian-made satellites have reached to a height of only 36,000 km. Today's firing has taken Chandrayaan-1 to something like 75,000 km. That's well beyond what we have reached so far. It was a good event, and done precisely," Nair, also secretary in the Department of Space, said.

Indicating the complexity of the India's first unmanned lunar mission, he said that when the spacecraft is closer to the earth, its gravitational field is well defined and scientists can shape the trajectory.

"When you go further and further, earth's influence comes down. Influence of Moon and Sun becomes predominant. Even other planets will have an influence on it," he said.

Moon lies at a distance of about 3,84,000 km from earth. ISRO officials said that Chandrayaan-1 is expected to settle into lunar orbit, 100 km above Moon, on November 8.

All systems on board the spacecraft, launched on October 22, were functioning normally, ISRO said, adding that further orbit-raising manoeuvres to take Chandrayaan-1 to still higher orbits are planned in the next few days.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/130546/Chan ... -Moon.html

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Oct 2008 00:41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJ-rq3LdSE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyWVFdqzhBw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVIE7Ph-4X0

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Oct 2008 00:51

That is an important observation, and thanks for tracking it this way.

disha wrote: PSLV performed well since it gave Chandrayaan a nice velocity oomph to achieve the desired Apogee. I believe the Apogee numbers matter [and note it is always the LAM that is fired]

Yes only Apogee matters.
Yes LAM is the only large thruster/engine onboard the craft, and obviously has the higest ISP of all thrusters.

Also note the confidence of ISRO on coming out with numbers based on a plan and then sticking to the plan. The last part [sticking to a plan] calls out for immense discipline!

Yup and important point.

IMHO the key to this mission will be perturbation measurement on the last 2 (3rd and 4th) earth orbits at >100,000 km apogee. That will give most useful perturbation data fro final correction to moon orbit insertion.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 26 Oct 2008 01:14

Neshant wrote:
Definately it will help in improvening the image of the country. The country's image is very important when Indian companies try to sell their stuff abroad (high tech stuff).

On the day the successful launch was reported, I found more negative comments than positive from certain others. They seemed annoyed that India had made such strides.

I noted that the Chinese launch of a man in space did not generate such hostility.

I have been dissapointed with lot of western reactions myself, but I began to realize that if I were a common Joe in the west on a superiority scale of 10/10, I would react the same way.

Little good news reaching Common Joe on India's quality of living, for a good extent because it is true. I believe betterment itself is a motivation, but if common Joe ("superiour in his own view") has to respect us (we are complaining, aren't we?), we have got to clean up our govt, invest in infrastructure (we can't live off golden quadrilateral forever). We are making a few right moves here and there, and that is it.

I am not holding my breath for living conditions/infrastructure to drastically improve by Chandrayaan-II time nor common Joe giving up his "meladramatic and jealous outrage" at this. I guess I have gotten over it..

Hearty congratulations to ISRO and eagerly waiting for the satellite to reach the 100Km orbit and the Chandrayaan-II in about 6 years. Cheers to ISRO whose feat remains pretty much the lone significant achievement since we got dumped from being compared with China.

In the meantime.. here is some information on instrument HEX.. Scientific Instruments - HEX and others

The High Energy X-ray (HEX) experiment is designed primarily to study the emission of low energy (30-270 keV) natural gamma-rays from the lunar surface due to 238U and 232Th and their decay chain nuclides.

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 26 Oct 2008 01:45

The intended and achieved apogee is different......is that something that is of concern???

IMO this needs to be very accurate and not just a close number.

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 26 Oct 2008 01:53

m mittal wrote:The intended and achieved apogee is different......is that something that is of concern???

IMO this needs to be very accurate and not just a close number.

I think that should be within allowable window. The next higher apogee might be adjusted, along with mid-course corrections in final Lunar transfer orbit. Just my guess..

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 26 Oct 2008 01:58

Shouldn't we call the rocket motor on spacecraft, LPM instead of LAM?

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 26 Oct 2008 02:04

Track it -- http://n2yo.com/?s=33405

Might not show the latest orbit..

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 26 Oct 2008 02:19

This is awesome

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 26 Oct 2008 02:25

pradeepe wrote:
manoba wrote:Scaring the poor flamingoes One more good Chandrayaan-I/PSLV-C11 launch video.
The best one I have seen so far. Even more enjoyable hearing the youngsters joy. Looked like he was relaying it to his mom on the phone. Awesome!

At the end of this video there are a couple of captions: The first one says "... on the way back to Chennai...on the train". The 2nd one says the man on the train(shown at the end of the video) after watching the video on the camcorder, asked ..."which town is that rocket going to?". Ahhh, such optimism. I would've told him It's going to Moon Town. Even in his unknowing innocence the man is already dreaming about people traveling on rocket ships to cities and towns. That's the spirit!

Go India Go!!!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Oct 2008 02:35

Watching all this advancement unfold in my lifetime, I am reminded of this song from the movie Purab aur Pashchim circa 1970. Jab Zero Diya...
Enjoy. Brings back great memories.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 26 Oct 2008 03:23

Courtesy: The Telegraph

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 26 Oct 2008 03:32

Some excerpts from The Telegraph:

“When we’re climbing stairs, it’s better to go a step at a time,” Mylswamy Annadurai, project director of Chandrayaan-1, said.

Nasa jobseekers

Several scientists from US space agency Nasa -- some of them of Indian origin and some not – have rung up Isro looking for opportunities to work in future Indian space missions, a PTI report said quoting Annadurai.

Annadurai, according to the report from Bangalore, said he definitely saw a “small trend” of “reverse brain drain” following the successful Chandrayaan-1 launch.

“Some of my friends and juniors working there (Nasa) are looking for opportunities to work in Isro,” Annadurai said.

He said at least half-a-dozen scientists had approached him and he knew that “a good number of foreigners” too were looking to work with Isro.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Oct 2008 04:24

http://insanelypositive.blogspot.com/se ... ndrayaan-1

from the chap who took the video. nice narration

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Oct 2008 05:01

anupmisra wrote:Watching all this advancement unfold in my lifetime, I am reminded of this song from the movie Purab aur Pashchim circa 1970. Jab Zero Diya...
Enjoy. Brings back great memories.

maaan, what a great song to listen during this time!!!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 26 Oct 2008 05:05

How India flew to the moon economy class

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) spent just over Rs 380 crore (about half the price of a Jumbo Jet) on Chandrayaan-1, with 1,000 scientists toiling over it for three years. A similar effort by NASA or any other space agency would have cost at least five times more. In real terms, Chandrayaan-1 cost only about 4% of Isro's budget over three years.

On the brighter side, Antrix Corporation, Isro's commercial wing, has earned Rs 900 crore from commercial satellite launches and sale of remote sensing data last financial year and the revenues are growing at 25%. "We have launched 16 satellites for other countries so far and another four are on the anvil. Commercial launches add to our earnings," says Madhavan Nair. This should augur well for Isro, which has such ambitious projects as the Rs 12,000 crore manned space mission scheduled for 2015.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Oct 2008 06:06

Launch strategy for Indian lunar mission and precision injection to the Moon using genetic algorithm
http://www.ias.ac.in/jess/dec2005/ilc-15.pdf

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 26 Oct 2008 06:49

India space probe seeks fusion power source on moon - UPI

Skeptics argue that in a time of world economic upheaval there should be no place for the expense and danger of space flight. They also claim that in a country where hundreds of millions of people remain dirt-poor and uneducated, it is a huge misapplication of resources.

The answer to that objection is simple: If the Indian space exploration and research program were to be canceled, the suffering of the nation's poor would not be eased one iota.
.....
Further, Chandrayaan-1's mission is not pie-in-the-sky idealism: It is focused on the practical priority of finding precious minerals and potential fuel for fusion power programs that could alleviate India's current massive dependence on imported oil, environmentally polluting coal and potentially dangerous fission-powered nuclear reactors.

The contained video has comments from common people they interviewed (probably from Washington) are interesting.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 26 Oct 2008 07:17

From the linked PDF, 83 Kg propellant is required for a 2 life span.Chandrayaan 1 LAM and spacecraft are based on METSAT to reduce development time . PSLV C11 is based on tested launch vehicle (PSLV C4). Probably, C11 is modelled on C4.

Also, there is some gyaan on perturbations which is beyond my current comprehension.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Oct 2008 07:45

a_kumar wrote: I have been dissapointed with lot of western reactions myself, but I began to realize that if I were a common Joe in the west on a superiority scale of 10/10, I would react the same way.

Little good news reaching Common Joe on India's quality of living, for a good extent because it is true. I believe betterment itself is a motivation, but if common Joe ("superiour in his own view") has to respect us (we are complaining, aren't we?), we have got to clean up our govt, invest in infrastructure (we can't live off golden quadrilateral forever). We are making a few right moves here and there, and that is it.

Why blame the west and Joe 6 pack...yesterday I faced an Indian fellow student (non-abcd) who complained about the 'accents' of the mission control scientists doing the countdown and calling out the launch

Apparently according to him somehow having a non-videshi accent (unlike NASA launches) implies incompetence. Needless to say I drilled him a new one.

Good to see the vehicle performing flawlessly....it is truly a graceful bird if I may call it that!

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Oct 2008 08:06

m mittal wrote:The intended and achieved apogee is different......is that something that is of concern???

IMO this needs to be very accurate and not just a close number.

Higher the orbit, even a small impulse will change the orbital radius very significantly. So I spent some time to arrive at the following:

1) Say when Chandrayan is injected to 200km x 36,000 km orbit, and the navigation and control system spend just 0.1 kg fuel too much (or too less), it will result in deviation of apogee from target by 4.9 Km.
2) While at 200km x 75,000 km orbit, and the same 0.1 kg fuel too much or less, will result in deviation from target apogee by 19.6 Km.
3) And at 200km x 200,000 km orbit, and the same 0.1 kg fuel too much or less, will result in deviation from target apogee by 152.2 Km.

rahulm wrote:From the linked PDF, 83 Kg propellant is required for a 2 life span.Chandrayaan 1 LAM and spacecraft are based on METSAT to reduce development time . PSLV C11 is based on tested launch vehicle (PSLV C4). Probably, C11 is modelled on C4.

LAM has been the workhorse for all Indian satellites since INSAT-1. Surely the design has improved over time to reduce the mass fraction and increase reliabelity and reduced cost.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 26 Oct 2008 08:35

Arun garu and other gurus, the probe will not be able to communicate with ISRO when it is behind the moon right.
I remember that during Apollo missions when the Lunar module is on the back side of moon it was out of communication with NASA.

Is it possible to have a Moonsynchrono orbit (lik geo stationary orbit) over moon? ( on reflection I think it is possible)
TIA

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 26 Oct 2008 08:53

John Snow wrote:Arun garu and other gurus, the probe will not be able to communicate with ISRO when it is behind the moon right.
I remember that during Apollo missions when the Lunar module is on the back side of moon it was out of communication with NASA.

Communication is essential only when transition to Chand's gravity is being made and the orbital high is being reduced. That is that reason if you see graphics above the planned plane of Chandrayan orbit transfer is to make the orbital plane face earth so that ISRO never loses communication for few days (using Indian and foriegn deep space radio communication network). That plane also happens to be the Lunar polar orbit, that is the final orbit required for 100% mapping of moon surface (like Earth based IRS satellites). At 100 km altitude solar eclipse will remain a problem, but can be minimized by a sun-synchronous polar orbit.

The problem Is it possible to have a Moonsynchrono orbit (lik geo stationary orbit) over moon? ( on reflection I think it is possible)
TIA

You mean to always be located at one point above moon surface? I dont think that is of much value, we earthlings always have a "Moon synchroneous" view of Chand and have never see the other face of celestial Chanda-mamma.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 26 Oct 2008 11:26

Chandrayaan-1 enters Deep Space

Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft has entered deep space after crossing the 150,000 km (one and a half lakh km) distance mark from the Earth. This happened after the successful completion of the spacecraft’s third orbit raising manoeuvre today (October 26, 2008) morning.

During this manoeuvre which was initiated at 07:08 IST, the spacecraft’s 440 Newton liquid engine was fired for about nine and a half minutes. With this, Chandrayaan-1 entered a much higher elliptical orbit around the Earth. The apogee (farthest point to Earth) of this orbit lies at 164,600 km while the perigee (nearest point to Earth) is at 348 km. In this orbit, Chandrayaan-1 takes about 73 hours to go round the Earth once.

The antennas of the Indian Deep Space Network at Byalalu are playing a crucial role in tracking and communicating with Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft in such a high orbit. The spacecraft performance is normal. More orbit raising manoeuvres are planned in the coming few days to take Chandrayaan-1 towards the Moon.

UPrabhu · Post by **UPrabhu** » 26 Oct 2008 12:00

Ahh.. as mentioned by Arun_S, the time of burn is less and less... only 9 minutes for 75000 to 164000

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 26 Oct 2008 13:25

Any one know, What is the attitude control on MIP? Spin stabilized?
Thanks

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 26 Oct 2008 14:08

Question to Gurus: how does the moon impact probe help in future landings. If it is going to crash onto the moon instead of a controlled descent, the next time when the rover goes up ISRO will find that it has no experience landing on the moon which imho is crucial. ( atleast one probe to mars was lost due bad landings iirc)

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 26 Oct 2008 14:23

Nice ESA video: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Ad0wiytGM&NR=1
Apols. if repost.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Oct 2008 15:00

rover need not do a apollo-11 type landing. a bed of balloons like some
of the mars vehicles would do.

the kayuga satellite looks like it released one or two comms relay satellites
to resolve the LOS issue with earth. details about kayuga are hard to
find in english part of web though.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 26 Oct 2008 16:17

The moon surface has been bombarded with asteroid impacts over several millenia now. Wouldn't the top layer of moon expected to be very dense, hard and probably somewhat brittle compared to its inner mass? Doing some crude analogy here with the "shot-peening" process in which a metal product bombarded by a shower of fine metal shots develops a hard surface layer due to work-hardening which is harder than the bulk inside. Though the two cases are not entirely similar, one would expect years of impact of asteroids to have rendered some compaction and densification of top surface of moon. In such a case any moon-rover would have to be geared for a hard impact upon landing.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Oct 2008 18:24

the impact probe is searching for something beneath the surface, that's why it is being made to crash and dig its own hole