Indian Navy and International Anti-Piracy Ops

[Singha]

tankers and small cargo ships are slow, but iirc the big new container
ships can maintain 25 knots across the ocean if need is for high speed.
for economy they might go slower in safe areas.

[prashanth]

Pentagon says force not the answer to surge in piracy

.. for the US that is.

The reputation of the US is in the dirt in various places in the world - not least in Somalia. And the US is overstretched.

So while force was the real solution in Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo and Iraq, force is not a solution in Somaila.

Or Pakistan for that matter..

Pah!

Sure. The US won't help. Rounding about the tip of south africa is less expensive economically and diplomatically for them. It is the right time to headbutt UNSC, for their impotence.

[chetak]

tankers and small cargo ships are slow, but iirc the big new container
ships can maintain 25 knots across the ocean if need is for high speed.
for economy they might go slower in safe areas.

IN has operated some detachments of helos off merchant ship decks.
A convoy with a few merchant ships carrying armed helos on deck may be worth a try. Reaction time in case of distress can be really quick.
Economical too.

[chetak]

the bears drop torpedoes with drogue chutes. as a one-off case some torpedo casings can be emptied out, stuff with
all explosives and keep just the chute...primed for impact detonation, would deliver a significant retarded bomb like
effect.
fly in and just drop it over the town waterfront.

Boss,
This is going to be one hell of a blind drop.
You have no idea where this contraption is going to land up.
You will toast the town!

[chetak]

For other countries it will be like "its Somalia today, next time it can be us".

And somehow that's a bad thing.

The old Hindu priest hollered at his grandchildren exercising in the courtyard: "Do not become too strong! Sit quietly or the Nawab will send his henchmen after you!!"

Heavens forbid, if we lose any Navy personal in such operation you will see a complete different mood in India.

It would take a very incompetent captain to let that happen. I have faith in IN.

And since when has this country become so cowardly that the death of a single crew brings out the white flags? Have we disbanded BSF too? Kargil never happened? You seem to carry some delusions about PN and IN.

I can see the attraction of naval patrolling. It gives the naval crews something interesting to do instead of the usual boring drills. Besides, who doesn't want to hunt pirates?! But at some point a babu in MoD will calculate the costs of all this patrolling and find out its cheaper in every way to bomb the pirate havens on land.

No one's talking about boots on ground, but you also cannot play this game of whack-a-mole indefinitely into future against a cheap supply of pirates.

The sooner we bomb the lesser the chance of cancer becoming malignant.

I really don't think that we run a sissy Navy.

[Singha]

chetak, loose cannons inspire the most fear. we are not fighting by queensberry rules here.

[chetak]

For anti-piracy operations, I think WSI Dhruvs would work better than Sea Kings/Kamovs. The rockets and guns would be useful in hosing down assorted mother/baby ships, and the cabin can yet carry MARCOS.

Too bad they aren't naval qualified.

The Seakings can be converted fairly easily and quickly to carry side firing guns,or even rockets for that matter. I do not see much difficulty in this modification. The Commando version lending itself to this role quite handily.
It would be very dramatic landing a non Naval Dhruv on deck at sea. You need wheels for this, skids will not do!

[chetak]

chetak, loose cannons inspire the most fear. we are not fighting by queensberry rules here.

Sir,
Right on.
I like your style!

[sohamn]

i am sure attaching a heavy machine gun on the side of a sea king will do the trick for most of the pirates. But this is an excellent chance for us to brush our skills. Probably we should deploy some subs too. They can creep up to the harbour and blast some mother ships with a heavy torpedo. IN could also try some innovative things which they haven't tried before - like I heard Kashmir SAMs have some limited anti ship capibility , why don't we test this feature. We may also try and use the main gun against the mother ships.

By the way guys - can somebody give a description of the mother ship i.e. how is looks like, what ammo does it carry?

[SSridhar]

Indian Navy comes of age

For a country nursing a deep desire to be recognised and respected as a power that does good in the world, there can be no sounder investment than in the Indian navy.

[asbchakri]

By the way guys - can somebody give a description of the mother ship i.e. how is looks like, what ammo does it carry?

Yup no problem, actually the pirates are going to launch a web site with all those info and their future targets

Seriously, i think we have to wait for the Vedio or some info to be relesed by MOD on how the INS Tabar sunk the ship. may be we can get some info on the mothership from that

[Sanku]

Gentlemen if I may suggest; rather than all the gung ho approaches being advocated here; what might work better is a little more "actual info" on pirate operations followed by surgical strikes on boats etc rather than following the tenets of US army in flattening entire North Vietname while killing no Congs and hurting plenty civvies in the bargain.

[jahaju]

Why not use this opportunity of hot pursuit (good Will of Somalia Govt) to set up a naval base in Somalia?

[Rahul M]

[K Mehta]

The goal is to have a safe area for sea based transport. Looks like what they are doing is escorting during day and searching for pirates at night. The ships can make convoys and be escorted by navy ships, would be the sensible thing to do.
Just like caravans against desert attacks.

[Sanku]

I am with you there.

[Rahul M]

convoys won't be too practical most of the times. it would eff up the schedules of most shipping lines, they can't afford to wait a couple of days for a convoy to start.

with only a handful of motherships this wave of piracy will be stopped with a few more skirmishes of the tabar type.
after that occasional roving patrols around the marked ports will do the trick.

[Kersi D]

India is supposedly sending INS Mysore, a destroyer, to replace INS Tabar to combat piracy in the gulf of Aden. This seems to be a huge overkill to me. I am no naval expert. But I think probabbly a smaller naval vessel with some coast guard vessels with it would have been appropriate.

Raicharan, INS Mysore has dual hangars and can carry seakings. Also being a destroyer, it has more endurance and more personnel and can sustain round the clock patrol and watch for longer. INS Mysore is not just being sent for her weaponry (forget a frigate, OPV or even INS Sukanya can take out the pirate mothership) but for her endurance.

On the head !!

I think INS Mysore would be having a fairly large contingent of MARCOS. A smaller vessel may not be able to carry too many MARCOS. INS Mysore will probably go with Seaking - Commando version

How about trying Barak in a ship-to-ship mode ?

Kersi

But let us NOT under estimate the vermin

[Raja]

Gentlemen if I may suggest; rather than all the gung ho approaches being advocated here; what might work better is a little more "actual info" on pirate operations followed by surgical strikes on boats etc rather than following the tenets of US army in flattening entire North Vietname while killing no Congs and hurting plenty civvies in the bargain.

Your are ruining the video game fantasies of some armchair strategists here.

[Singha]

the SA-13 on Talwar class also has a cooled IR seeker and min range 500m. not being VL the unit can be pointed directly at the target upto
8 rounds ripple fired in the general direction of target.

the USN once hit a turkish ffg with a sea-sparrow in anti-ship mode
with devastating results.

[Nayak]

Better idea would be to drop slow-burning white phosphorous grenades at the skinnys.
Video tape the event and broadcast it world-wide for the warlords to get the message.

[vdutta]

Better idea would be to drop slow-burning white phosphorous grenades at the skinnys.
Video tape the event and broadcast it world-wide for the warlords to get the message.

i dont agree with your first point but i do agree with your second one. we need to record it next time and put it on www. it would be good PR. world only understands the language on images now days..
like they say.. "justice should not only be done but it should be seen that justice is done".

[chetak]

i am sure attaching a heavy machine gun on the side of a sea king will do the trick for most of the pirates. But this is an excellent chance for us to brush our skills. Probably we should deploy some subs too. They can creep up to the harbour and blast some mother ships with a heavy torpedo. IN could also try some innovative things which they haven't tried before - like I heard Kashmir SAMs have some limited anti ship capibility , why don't we test this feature. We may also try and use the main gun against the mother ships.

By the way guys - can somebody give a description of the mother ship i.e. how is looks like, what ammo does it carry?

Motherships are not anything special.
These are generally fishing trawlers and commercial vessels of such description, like dhows etc that form part of the normal traffic in the region.
They blend in with the commonly used vessels in that part of the world and their very anonymity is their protection as they are able to easily hide and blend amongst other vessels for protection. Surely the local fishermen will know when they have pirates in their midst.
Sometimes after an attack they will merge back into the regular traffic so as to remain unsuspected or undetected.
Most normal vessels used in coastal trade have a speed boat or two, sometimes in tow or hoisted on deck for use of the crew.
The engines speedboats used by the pirates could be the giveaway. They all have extremely powerful engines, maybe more than one and such engines are not normally used commercially. These engines are specialty engines used for sport or racing. Not your everyday runabout outboards like Evinrude or Suzuki or whatever.
Also unusually, you will find long range fuel tanks, used to carry lots of fuel for sustained high speed operation. Maybe even fuel stacked in jerrycans. Surprise is their main weapon. They usually dash out at high speed and attack.
They will also carry heavy rope and grappling equipment that they use for boarding the moving merchantmen.
They throw these grappling hooks and when the hooks snag on the ships railings or some equipment on deck, they clamber up these ropes and terrorize the crew. They have good technical knowledge of ships and navigation equipment so that they are able to handle a variety of ships and equipment.
Loaded merchantmen ride very low in the water. The height of the deck above the water line may just be a meter or two if at all. They are cumbersome to maneuver. They usually lumber along at around 10 - 12 knots. Easily matched by a speedboat.
Their momentum is such that depending on the weight and speed, a large merchantman can take up to 25-30 nautical miles to come to a dead halt in the water.
Since the pirates are armed and have killed ships crew on many occasions, no one will risk his life trying to fight them. Their reputation precedes them and so they are easily able to subdue the crew. Sometimes, rarely though, the ships crews have been able to fight off the pirates by using high pressure water hoses to blast them off the deck or even prevent them form climbing on. But since many armed pirates board simultaneously from multiple points and resistance is usually futile.

The pirates generally carry RPGs, sidearms and coming from Somalia what else but the ubiquitous AK series!
Their motherships will generally carry replenishment ammo and RPGs, fuel for the boats and communications gear as well as portable GPS sets.
This is probably why the mothership caught fire so easily during the Tabar incident.
Cheers

[Lalmohan]

pirate ships are indisinguishable from local coastal craft and fishing vessels. there is no simple area denial solution that can be used here without killing many civilians. merchantmen need to be escorted or the sea lanes need active coordinated patroling. each attack needs an immediate response, each suspect needs to be investigated by a boarding party. resistance must be met with deadly fire. frigates and destroyers are ideal for this task - long endurance, swift response, big firepower (missiles are not necessary, main gun and ass full of kashtan is more than sufficient!)

the pirate scourge is not just poor wretches turning to crime - i fear that there is an al-qaeda angle to it as well; what a good way of raising funds for the global jehad and create another military stretch for the infidels.

in the long run, only the swift armed eradication of pirate vessels at sea will deal with this problem - jihadis will remain jihadis wherever they are, atleast we will have removed the threat from our commerce without solving world hunger whilst we're at it.

[Shankar]

maybe one so called no sail zone can be established in the gulf of aden where only international traffic will be allowed in line with no fly zone and patrolled by international navies .Any local ship speed boat found in the no sail zone will be blown off water

[Lalmohan]

maybe one so called no sail zone can be established in the gulf of aden where only international traffic will be allowed in line with no fly zone and patrolled by international navies .Any local ship speed boat found in the no sail zone will be blown off water

UN Mandate required boss

[Nayak]

As per hindu report, it took 8 months of frentic lobbying by IN to get permission to patrol the Gulf of Aden. If true this is another failure of our current gobar-mand to protect Indian interests.

Getting back to the military (and fanboy) angle, aggressive patrolling and knocking on any suspicious dhows will make the pirates jittery. No captures, just sink and make the rest fish-bait.

If the ROP/Al-keedas are involved, IN needs to get very wary as they will be looking to pull a USS Cole incident.

[Kanson]

Its normal scene in Indian waters to see trawlers towing 1 or 2 catamarans.

Any speed boats attached could give away the intention. Second is no. of people onboard. Not more than 5 people could be expected in fish trawlers.

[chetak]

pirate ships are indisinguishable from local coastal craft and fishing vessels. there is no simple area denial solution that can be used here without killing many civilians. merchantmen need to be escorted or the sea lanes need active coordinated patroling. each attack needs an immediate response, each suspect needs to be investigated by a boarding party. resistance must be met with deadly fire. frigates and destroyers are ideal for this task - long endurance, swift response, big firepower (missiles are not necessary, main gun and ass full of kashtan is more than sufficient!)

the pirate scourge is not just poor wretches turning to crime - i fear that there is an al-qaeda angle to it as well; what a good way of raising funds for the global jehad and create another military stretch for the infidels.

in the long run, only the swift armed eradication of pirate vessels at sea will deal with this problem - jihadis will remain jihadis wherever they are, atleast we will have removed the threat from our commerce without solving world hunger whilst we're at it.

Toast 'em all.
Let god sort them out

[Neela]

Honestly guys you need to chill out.

The pirates were foolish to provoke the IN. What they did was to test the will of the IN. By firing they assumed the IN would whine an run away. (Paki trait?).
Little did they realise that

a. The IN sailors would be itching for a fight after lpong stretches of boredom.
b. IN knew the protocol of engagement before attacking.

So all the IN prolly did was yawn and fire in return.


The int'l press that they got was probably because of the ransoms that has been paid, the number of commercial ships lost including cargo and this being the first big engagement.

BTW, unit cost of Brahmos is ~2 million.
Pirate mother ship cost + 2 speeboats : $30000 max

[Nayak]

The fearsome KDX-II is to join INS Mysore. Now even SOKO joins the party

http://english.kbs.co.kr/mcontents/issu ... 11694.html

The dispatch of South Korean navy ships will be the first occasion for its overseas operation. The government sent its survey team to Somalia last month and finalized its plan to dispatch its destroyers, and this time, the 4,500-ton KDX-II 5 named after the ancient Korean general Kang Kam-chan. The destroyer is heavily equipped with firearms against aircrafts, war vessels and submarines. Its 200-person crew includes elite soldiers for special warfare from UDT, SEALs and EOD.

As shown in the dispatch of soldiers to Iraq, sending naval ships to alien waters is not a simple endeavor. It calls for congressional endorsement and carefully planned logistics. For all these difficulties, the government plan is expected to strengthen South Korea’s ability for naval operations and to promote international efforts to curb piracy. Gen. Kang Kam-chan, the destroyer’s namesake, repelled the invasion of the 100,00-strong Kitan troop from Manchuria with his dexterous use of water in the early 11th Century. We hope that our navy soldiers will do their best to protect our ships and sailors from pirates.

[jahaju]

Was the idea of expanding the navy's capacity (which it might or might not have) to set up a naval base, so bad in taste that u decided to bang your head against the wall? If others can suggest convoys ala WWII to protect against the pirates/german wolf packs, then why not have a permanent station?

BTW the smilie was good.

[Lalmohan]

some insight into the pirate way of life...

guardian photo archive

[Arya Sumantra]

the pirate scourge is not just poor wretches turning to crime - i fear that there is an al-qaeda angle to it as well; what a good way of raising funds for the global jehad and create another military stretch for the infidels.

Possible. Look at the way Al jazz era justifies piracy.
'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy

[shiv]

some insight into the pirate way of life...

guardian photo archive

This store needs to be taken out IMO
Caption:

This Hobyo Branch store in store in Galkayo is supplying the pirates with food, drink and cigarettes. They call the owner to order what they need; then a truck goes from Galkayo to Hobyo with the items and sells them to the pirates for twice the normal price, partly contributing the country's inflation

[shiv]

Here's Hobyo



Where's the shop?

[Sanku]

doesnt matter where the shop is "Kill them all"

---------------------------------

On a more sober note -- if not for the AK 47s this could be fishing village anywhere in India

[Avid]

Shiv the google earth image is from 2002

[shiv]

Shiv the google earth image is from 2002

I know - but the shop looks like 1967 to me.

[chetak]

Honestly guys you need to chill out.

The pirates were foolish to provoke the IN. What they did was to test the will of the IN. By firing they assumed the IN would whine an run away. (Paki trait?).
Little did they realise that

a. The IN sailors would be itching for a fight after lpong stretches of boredom.
b. IN knew the protocol of engagement before attacking.

So all the IN prolly did was yawn and fire in return.


The int'l press that they got was probably because of the ransoms that has been paid, the number of commercial ships lost including cargo and this being the first big engagement.

BTW, unit cost of Brahmos is ~2 million.
Pirate mother ship cost + 2 speeboats : $30000 max

Let me ask a very obvious question.
These pirate guys are businessmen, not morons.
Would they really take on an obviously hostile man of war with a few RPG pop guns?
Or maybe they just missed the A-190E, you think?
Among many other very obvious tell tale signs of very serious offensive capabilities.

Not that I am complaining about what the IN dished out!



Name: INS Tabar
Ordered: November 17, 1997
Laid down: May 26, 2000
Launched: May 25, 2001
Commissioned: April 19, 2004
Fate: Active in service as of 2008
General characteristics
Class and type: Talwar-class frigate
Displacement: 3,620 long tons (3,678 t) standard
4,035 long tons (4,100 t) full load
Length: 124.8 m (409 ft 5 in)
Beam: 15.2 m (49 ft 10 in)
Draught: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Propulsion: 2 × DS-71 cruise turbines (9,000 shp))[1]
2 × DT-59 boost turbines (19,500 shp)[1]
Speed: 30 knots (35 mph/56 km/h)
Range: 4,850 mi (7,810 km) at 14 kn (16 mph/26 km/h)
1,600 mi (2,600 km) at 30 kn (35 mph/56 km/h)
Complement: 180 (18 officers)
Aircraft carried: 1 × Ka-28 Helix-A, Ka-31 Helix B or HAL Dhruv helicopter

Main gun
One 100mm A-190(E) gun, for use against ship and shore based targets, is fitted forward. The A-190(E) uses a lightweight gun mount with an automatic gun and fuze setter. The mounting is fed from separate port and starboard magazines and uses three different rounds: a high-explosive shell with an impact fuze; an anti-aircraft shell using an electronic fuze; and an inert practice round. An automatic control and monitoring system prepares the gun for firing, selects the appropriate ammunition, conducts continuous diagnostics and computes firing corrections. Fire control is provided by the 5P-10E Puma FCS. The gun can fire 60 rounds a minute out to a range of 8.2n miles; 15 km. Weight of each shell is at 16 kg.