Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Aug 2009 11:44

I am intrigued by some posts which suggests that MMS was 'setup'?

Why?

He is the handpicked man by Sonia G.

Who will replace him?

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 07 Aug 2009 11:46

^^ who else except yuvraj rahul to replace him

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Aug 2009 12:51

RayC: Good question. The trend I have seen is while glorifying Congress Prime Ministers, the list stops at Rajiv Gandhi. Not much is mentioned about PVNR. It so happened that Manmohan Singh was the Finance Minister and he gets the credit. There is no credit (I really mean hype) given to PVNR or P.Chidambaram (he was the Commerce Minister then). The refusal to acknowledge other Congress leaders only means the Nehru-Gandhi Dynasty (NGD) treats all nonb-NGD leaders the same way Unkil treats India. Unkil needs India to counter Pandadesh. Yet it will contain and allow India to grow only so much. It will clip India's wings as and when necessary just like we prune bushes and clip grasses. NGD will allow non-NGD only so much room to grow.

Looking at the exit of PVNR does not give me high hopes for MMS. But unlike PVNR, MMS has charmed his way into people's heart. Aaj ki yuva aur yuvathi love him. He has all the qualities they think a leader should have - good qualifications, proven track record (economic liberalisation), secular, modern, soft-spoken, liberal, simple ithyadi. Will Rajamata wait for Yuvaraj's ascension to the throne till 2014?

In order for people to vote for Congress in 2014, Congress and MMS have to do very well. This means a non-NGD leader will have to gain prominence. Then MMS will step down (health reasons onlee), and Yuvaraj will be "forced" to lead the country on his "young shoulders". If Congress does badly in the next few years or conditions change, then Yuvaraj will have a tough fight on his young shoulders. MMS could step down now showing stress and health reasons owing to all his work pressure.

As usual I have no backing for all my non-guru observations and might be totally wrong - for all I know MMS might have total blessings and love from Rajmata. I am sceptical though.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 07 Aug 2009 13:27

The PoliticsParty.com writers have been on a tear since the elections predicting that Manmohan Singh will resign or be forced to resign come September. Makes one wonder!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Aug 2009 16:22

Rajmata may be many things, but she has shown herself not to be a fool. she sees herself as the torch bearer for her mother in law's legacy. yes yuvraj is the answer but not yet. as she chose not to take the helm despite party sycophant begging, she will make yuvraj learn the ropes, practice his trade, make a few mistakes, before she annoints him. as a strategy i think it has merit (leaving aside the qualifications of the aspirant), gives yuvraj more chance of success also

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 07 Aug 2009 20:05

What kind of pressure was applied by the "unknown party" at SeS?
yes/no to sale of 125 fighter planes useful in the Arunachal theater?
Threat of a JDAM exploding in a major Indian city approved by the "unknown party"?
Are the radioactive detectors placed at Airports and ports in Pakiland part of this threat?
Is the yellow cake genie really out of the bottle?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Aug 2009 01:56

the declared talk tough messages were carbon treaty and potential trade arm twisting and End User Monitoring. there was probably also a 'dont let the mangy cur turn rabid, its not good for any of us' message

i notice that we have announced a massive solar power programme now... will take the smoke out of the carbon treaty issues

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 08 Aug 2009 02:19

PP likes to shoot in the dark. I remember reading how BJP Govt is for sure before the election, and how this & that may happen. His writing is dream come true of conspiracy theories,and likes of ahmed dumb as* quarashi & Zahid hamid.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Aug 2009 02:31

PP has some info-leakers inside all Politcal parties and some chota babus etc. He nurtured his folks who can tell him the gossip and he churns a story around it and puts it with graphics etc.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 08 Aug 2009 06:18

VikasRaina wrote:Have we really become the argumentative Indians on BRF, ...

Yes.

=======

In the previous version of this thread, I had asked ALL BRites following question, which I will repeat again

We know that MMS has sold out. Now what solution do you propose?

(And I have a vested interest in asking : I might include your proposed solution in my manifesto)

.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 08 Aug 2009 06:22

I am intrigued by some posts which suggests that MMS was 'setup'?

The explanations for the Great S-e-S Victory are getting wilder. My information is that it was an agreement by Pakistan conveying the coordinates of the hut where Baitullah Mehsood's Wife #2 and Goats #16-73 were located.

The key signal to the US Predators was this

Look for the phrase "Bad Drafting" in the Indian explanation - this shows that the coordinates are confirmed

And look at what has happened: Baitullal Mehsood has now been 600% confirmed killed - for the 6th time. The New Al Qaida #3.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 08 Aug 2009 11:01

It is scary to think and bring another B word

in the context of S-e-S.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Aug 2009 11:17

'X posting from the thread - A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Quote:
So will TSP continue harming itself in order to harm us? If experience is anything to go by it will and that makes the postulate of "a stable and prosperous Pakistan is in Indian interest" an oxymoron encapsulated within a ridiculous moot point. The question in fact is not about Pakistan at all. It is what steps will India take to end the existence of this clearly unambiguous threat?

The question, to my mind, is all about Pakistan.

India has to address the issue dependant on Pakistan’s. Now, if Pakistan gets responsible, though that is impossible, except in the mind of the PM it is possible, then the situation is totally different. All my good wishes to the PM and his steadfast belief in Pakistan!

What steps will India take to address this issue? Nothing! We will be again subjected to the impotent bleating and tying ourselves in knots, the likes of what we saw in Sharm al Sheik. And there will continue to be the ‘brave’ defence of the monumental feeble mindedness committed, prominent Defender of the Faiths being the famous duo of Sibal and Singhvi, their formidable persona equalled by the array of their rather fierce looking dental ‘furniture’ that they flash so liberally that frightens the Nation into place!

I am also appalled by the unique quote Trust and Verify pizzazz of a US President, the quote that the PM must have learnt when he last visited ‘India Loves You Mr Bush’. Now, if such mushy outpouring is statesmanship, then obviously the way our Foreign Policy is being conducted does indicate a trifle touch of Jesus and turning of the other cheek. Commendable to say the least. The way India is kowtowing to Australia over the thrashing that Indian students are being subjected to does show we are very peace loving and compassionate to those who inflict indignities and undertake terrorist action. I am sure such sagacious statesmen of India do find Pakistan a very stable and prosperous nation and so peace is the highway to take!

Suderjee had written the book ‘Blind Men of Hindoosthan’ in a different context. Our statesmen cannot be blamed if they also appear blind to the Nation’s woe that is being inflicted by the 1000 cut theory and the terrorism in the hinterland. They are after all cocooned in the various rings that the NSG provides and so they are blind to the atmospheric beyond the security rings. Remove these protective rings and they will discover Mother Earth and learn to not trust and verify, but verify and then trust. One wonders if the PM got confused in getting the sequence of the words wrong since confusion appears to be his forte. He said something at Sharm a Sheik and said something totally different in the Parliament and kept all confused as to what he said and said not. He is as good as Rumsfeld - There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. Or maybe he is an ardent fan of Irving Berlin - Life is 10 percent what you make it, and 90 percent how you take it. So, we take it real up!

Given that Pakistan renegades every treaty and is adroit in breaching trust, she will continue to be a thorn in the side of India with liberal doses of terrorism amidst the mealy mouthed pious platitudes regularly spun by their corrupt leadership held at ransom by their Army and ISI.

The solution is dissolution of Pakistan. War is an option. However, the geopolitical reality does not allow the total destruction of Pakistan through war as has been repeatedly proved. Notwithstanding, one can do many ‘Bangladeshs’ so that the cancer is dissipated and made powerless to act.

There can never be either a stable Pakistan or a prosperous one. Their very birth was under such incomprehensible rationale that they are themselves confused as to what is their identity and hence suffers from serious bouts of schizophrenia.

Our statesmen may revisit Ruyard Kipling:
“If you can keep your wits about you while all others are losing theirs, and blaming you. . . . The world will be yours and everything in it, what's more, you'll be a man, my son.”

Drake he was a Devon man, an' ruled the Devon seas,
(Capten, art tha sleepin' there below?),
Rovin' tho' his death fell, he went wi' heart at ease,
An' dreamin' arl the time o' Plymouth Hoe,
"Take my drum to England, hang et by the shore,
Strike et when your powder's runnin' low;
If the Dons sight Devon, I'll quit the port o' Heaven,
An' drum them up the Channel as we drummed them long ago."

Mr PM, since you love quotes, take the one above for mulling over. It is time to hang the drum by the border! The Nation's patience is running low!

Awake from your romantic slumber. Pakistan is not Heer, so don't be a Ranjha!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Aug 2009 13:04

John,great clip from Dr.Strangelove! It perfectly describes the Paki "A-O-A " attitude.

The new spin,that our poor drafting at S-al-S,was actually a great new "flexible strategy" or whatever with Pak,only brings into my mind the meaning of "flexible".Where do you want to get "shafted" by Pak,front or rear? MMS truly doesn't care which end!

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 08 Aug 2009 13:53

The solution is simple wait for the next attack and dont be in that town at that place at that time

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 08 Aug 2009 21:38

Rahul Mehta wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Have we really become the argumentative Indians on BRF, ...
Yes.

=======

In the previous version of this thread, I had asked ALL BRites following question, which I will repeat again

We know that MMS has sold out. Now what solution do you propose?
(And I have a vested interest in asking : I might include your proposed solution in my manifesto)
.

Rahul, I think we are assuming that MMS has sold out. Irrespective of my personal opinion about MMS, I don't think PM's sell out like that. There might be wrong calculation on his part, but that does not mean he sold out.
Honestly IMO we are too much into words,assumed intents, postures and statements but never into real politik and actions.
So Head of govt from India and Pakistan meet every year, come out with some joint statement after chai-biskoot session and go back claiming victory. Big Deal. What exactly gave you the idea that MMS is sold out. Didn't people say the same thing about him when he was FM.
So to answer your question, No there is nothing I intend to do about it except for hoping that India is actually doing something for liberation of B'stan.

PS:OT I am not even convinced that jury system is such a wonderful system atleast in India looking at how people feel sympathetic towards Sanjay Dutt and Salman khan during their trials.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Aug 2009 22:47

Sell out or Buy out is an issue of semantics and dependant on the person's perceptions.

The questions that are intriguing and require thought are:

1. Terrorism and a threat to life and limb is an aspect that India is confronted with because of Pakistan sponsored terrorism, be it in J&K or hinterland India. The issue is, is it something that is acceptable by India?

If yes, that it is acceptable for Indians to die at the hands of terrorists from Pakistan, is it the perception of the majority of Indians, more so by those who lost their near and dear ones?

If not, then how can terrorism that shakes the very foundation of the security of Indian citizens (and may not be for politicians, who are very well protected) be de-linked from the Peace process and dialogue? If terrorists keep striking at will, what peace are we talking about?

What has Balochistan got to do with India? Are we sponsoring insurgency there? If so, yes, then it has relevance. If not, it is merely means that we are accepting that we are sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan and so we are equally guilty!

I wonder if anyone who has an inkling of how a government works, would make such gaffes, unless the policy is Peace at all costs, including at the cost of losing Indian lives to terrorist actions!

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 09 Aug 2009 00:53

"Think out of the Bun and Run for the border" Taco Bell Ad(age)
{Adage: A saying that sets forth a general truth and that has gained credit through long use. also Adage: Advertisement Age.}

I feel that the babus of GOI, GOI and the GOTSP (Govt of TSP) and Terrorists are all hand in glove.
There is so much money to be made in this terrorism business legitimate, Narcotics, Women trafficking, Prostitution, arms deals, illegal immigration/migration, that there is legitimate need to continue this profitable and lucarative business.

1) the evidence of Politicos of UP, Bihar, TN, AP, Maharashtra, Gurat for that matter all states leaderhip is into it.

2) BSF help smuggle people and commodity is often read in papers.

3) naxals dining and wining with ruling elite is all to well known.

4) The kick backs in arms equipment and lobbying is well known.

5) Gun (arms) running and even air droping or delivery is well known.

And above Dawood bhai still owning million Crores worth property and running business as usual in India, thats called the genious of management no? If he says Natch meri jaan phata phat, from Karachi the whole of Bollywood babes would be doing the thing barely concealing anything but joy!!

So why are so picky about sell out , its good for economy as long as it is not distress sell (out) no?

"Make him an offer that he cant resist" Godfather

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Aug 2009 01:02

John snow,

You are scary. I just hope that is not the case what you say!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Aug 2009 02:50

John Snow Garu,
All of what you are saying are plausible. But don't you see this as a great opportunity to consolidate all the forces that are against this disintegration and mercantile mentality? I know I have been queried about the stuff I "smoke" when I welcomed the supposed sell-out and the potential retreat of the Bharatyia from the northern plains - as a means of getting rid of the "rotten fence". The total number of people who are opposed to what is happeneing is perhaps very samll. But the initial size of any group is no indicator of its future impact.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Aug 2009 03:42

The nurseries of this sell out /dhimmi culture are mainly in UP,AP,Bihar and very few other places. Suprisingly onlee Bihar has shown the little auspicious change in last few years. Comparatively Marathaland's inertia have been dissappointing. The influence of Ganga Jamuni culture on Indian politics have been curse on India since independence. Remove this weed , Bharityata bloom and flourishes. Pre 47, Ganga Jamuni were major partner in Partition movement and none of them shou;d have been sent off without multiple fracture in the body or put to rest in their own birthland.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Aug 2009 05:46

RayC, a great quote that should go on the top of every Pakistan thread!

Solve Pakistan. Dissolve it.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 09 Aug 2009 06:45

Let me ask a rhetorical question here....
Since time immemorial we have been constantly threatened and attacked from western frontiers of India starting from Kal Yavan to present Pakistani Govt and there isn't much that we have done to defend ourselves (eg. like building a wall of China) except for well fight. It was always like game of cricket where the enemy like a bowler needed just one chance which they eventually got.
Pakistan is nothing but continuation of that eternal war. First we lost Geographical Bharat to invaders and then we lost our influence.
Forget that once Kanishka and Kushan empie extended upto central Asia, most of us don't even feel any sense of loss with India that we lost to Pakistan , Bangladesh and China in last couple of generations.
We keep talking about various ways and means to tackle Pakistan and eventually the troubles that arise of our western frontier but what are our means and ways. Ruling elite and so called intellectuals think that by embracing Pakistan, we somehow would stop the assault on the idea that is India and we all know that Idea is a big flop. Just like Amerikhans, we are throwing money at Pakistan in form of future riches if somehow Pakistan would stop troubling us, we can trade and they get rich inspite of the inherent hatred that Pakistan has towards our nation.
Experts on BRF talk about breaking up Pakistan and then hoping that these small Islandic pakistan no longer threaten us though there is no proof that these broken components won't continue the policy of bleeding by thousand cuts.
Pakistan is not some external entity superimposed on Pak nation, it is the collective thought process of what constitute the people of Pakistan.

India that was scared to goto war with Pakistan yesterday and today, Why would it goto War with PakJab or Sindh or NWFP tomorrow if relations go south. Just like today we want to save our economic wealth, we would have some other excuse tomorrow unless war is forced upon us. Do we even have a plan if we get oppurtunity to reclaim Aksai Chin or POK forget Tibet or Purushpur?

We claim of great Chanikyan policies of babus sitting in North and South block although they haven't proven anything by their so called skills except for their incompetence but we have all sorts of naming conventions about cold start,hot start, salami slice and blah blah.
Hell !!we can't tackle even one Dawood or Salahuddin or Maulana Azhar.
We hope and request America to solve our Pakistani problem and then cringe when US arm-twists us in return. We cry,preach and resent when external powers talk about J&K but are willing to offer anything short of Azadi. Aren't we really saying ,"ooh I am so scared of your guns, So pls take anything you want but help me save my face."

So my question is ,Are we clueless or are we option less or are we don't have what it takes to defend our nation ?
After all like all other attackers in the Past, someday Pakistan could succeed in winning the war against India. Then what ? Another 800 years of misery and crushing.

So if our name props up in the conversation when Pakis talk about B'stan, so be it. At least someone thinks that GoI has balls.

sukhdeo · Post by **sukhdeo** » 09 Aug 2009 07:20

The current Indian scenario and our ability to withstand Islamic invasions is qualitatively very different from those in the past. I contend that we are in a relatively much weaker position to withstand any new Islamic onslaught, whether it be military, cultural, economic or demographic. In none of the invasions of the past, did we have almost 40-45% of the native population of the subcontinent of Islamic faith and during none of the invasions of the past, the Islamic invaders were backed by massive, almost obscene oil wealth and during none of the invasions of the past, Islam was the most followed religion in the world providing the strategic depth to the invaders, as it is right now.

Lastly, in none of the invasions in the past, that we admittedly lost, were we internally so weak, corrupt, divided, demoralized, lacked strategic thinking to such an extent and lacked in collective will to self defense, as we do now.

Brihispati, I have been reading your posts and some of them seem to suggest to me at least that you are somehow treating the inevitable future invasions by Islam (not necessarily in the form of a conventional war), as a mere recycle of history, a sort of continuation of history. Even if you have considered the qualitative difference in the context of these future invasions from the invasions of the past or rather our ability to withstand these invasions now and in the future vis-a-vis our ability to withstand them in the past, your posts are not very clear about it.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 09 Aug 2009 08:33

I agree with N guru about his new slogun.

why not this one?

Dont resolve! Just Dissolve Pakistan

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Aug 2009 09:12

Hope this hopless scenario help in understanding the gyan of doing japam of 2 hajar Kralam Mahakalam with the brightness of thousand Suns. Onlee then good thoughts will flow from all directions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Aug 2009 10:12

sukhdeo wrote:The current Indian scenario and our ability to withstand Islamic invasions is qualitatively very different from those in the past. I contend that we are in a relatively much weaker position to withstand any new Islamic onslaught, whether it be military, cultural, economic or demographic. In none of the invasions of the past, did we have almost 40-45% of the native population of the subcontinent of Islamic faith and during none of the invasions of the past, the Islamic invaders were backed by massive, almost obscene oil wealth and during none of the invasions of the past, Islam was the most followed religion in the world providing the strategic depth to the invaders, as it is right now.

Islam today IMO is weaker than it was. It is pure GIGO to fail to make adequate assessments of current reality.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 09 Aug 2009 11:20

sukhdeo wrote:The current Indian scenario and our ability to withstand Islamic invasions is qualitatively very different from those in the past. I contend that we are in a relatively much weaker position to withstand any new Islamic onslaught, whether it be military, cultural, economic or demographic. In none of the invasions of the past, did we have almost 40-45% of the native population of the subcontinent of Islamic faith and during none of the invasions of the past, the Islamic invaders were backed by massive, almost obscene oil wealth and during none of the invasions of the past, Islam was the most followed religion in the world providing the strategic depth to the invaders, as it is right now.

Lastly, in none of the invasions in the past, that we admittedly lost, were we internally so weak, corrupt, divided, demoralized, lacked strategic thinking to such an extent and lacked in collective will to self defense, as we do now.

Brihispati, I have been reading your posts and some of them seem to suggest to me at least that you are somehow treating the inevitable future invasions by Islam (not necessarily in the form of a conventional war), as a mere recycle of history, a sort of continuation of history. Even if you have considered the qualitative difference in the context of these future invasions from the invasions of the past or rather our ability to withstand these invasions now and in the future vis-a-vis our ability to withstand them in the past, your posts are not very clear about it.

I think it is not as bad as that. There are a couple of reasons to be optimistic. The first is that India was vulnerable to invasions when it did not have a strong central power. A strong center has been able to repel foreign aggressions. For example, Skandagupta defeated the Huns while the Huns virtually defeated the Romans. Now, India has a strong center with most Hindus lands politically united as never before. A sense of nationalism exists today the way in did not exist before.

The second thing is that the advantage that lay with the foreign armies such as Turks of having superior military tactics and equipement will no longer be present as militarily India is making rapid progress. Just look at Afghanistan, Tajiksthan, Uzbekistan. These are the places from where the invaders used to come and defeat Indian armies in the past. Look at where they are now and where India is now.

The challenge India faces is a demographic challenge. This has to be managed carefully.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Aug 2009 11:47

csharma wrote:
I think it is not as bad as that. There are a couple of reasons to be optimistic.
The challenge India faces is a demographic challenge. This has to be managed carefully.

He is not talking about war but spread of islamism and social demographic changes.
Current christian conversion should be an example how millions of poor illiterate Indians are susceptible to a foreign social change plan.
This large scale social change has never been attempted this way

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Aug 2009 12:20

sukhdeo wrote:The current Indian scenario and our ability to withstand Islamic invasions is qualitatively very different from those in the past. I contend that we are in a relatively much weaker position to withstand any new Islamic onslaught, whether it be military, cultural, economic or demographic. In none of the invasions of the past, did we have almost 40-45% of the native population of the subcontinent of Islamic faith and during none of the invasions of the past, the Islamic invaders were backed by massive, almost obscene oil wealth and during none of the invasions of the past, Islam was the most followed religion in the world providing the strategic depth to the invaders, as it is right now.

Lastly, in none of the invasions in the past, that we admittedly lost, were we internally so weak, corrupt, divided, demoralized, lacked strategic thinking to such an extent and lacked in collective will to self defense, as we do now.

Brihispati, I have been reading your posts and some of them seem to suggest to me at least that you are somehow treating the inevitable future invasions by Islam (not necessarily in the form of a conventional war), as a mere recycle of history, a sort of continuation of history. Even if you have considered the qualitative difference in the context of these future invasions from the invasions of the past or rather our ability to withstand these invasions now and in the future vis-a-vis our ability to withstand them in the past, your posts are not very clear about it.

The fact that there is a large Islamic population in India and that the Arabs have enormous wealth and so we will be subjected to an Islamic invasion and will not be able to fend for ourselves is, to my mind, a trifle exaggerated indication of the Islamic intrepidity.

Notwithstanding, what many believe and have debated on this very forum, there was no ‘Political India’ and instead there was a multitude of self seeking rulers charged with bloated ego and clan instincts. They subverted each other and so the Islamic invaders could defeat them in detail, initially to plunder and loot and later, to build their Empire. Even so, the Political India that is India today, could never be conquered under one Islamic ruler.

Today, there is Political India and notwithstanding the factious tendencies of political parties and even communities and religious divisions, Political India has stood the test of time right from the start of the Independent India! Neither religion nor the multitudinous community structure with their own aspirations and desires, has been an impediment to drive back those who felt that India, because of it rainbow population and religious mix could be subjugated. In fact, some were themselves demolished and divided, while others were indicated where the Rubicon lay.

While it is a popular belief that Islam is singular in construct, it is not so. A study of Islam will indicate that it though apparently similar ideological in construct, it is not so. Islam is actually singular in basic ideology, but is a unique exercise in temporal power hunt over the spiritual, starting right from the days of the demise of their Prophet! It is only after the War on Terror and the overdose of rhetoric that the fear has been driven into the Islamic faith and so they are struggling to find their place in the sun through violent and aggressive action. Unlike the belief of some that Islam is on the victory march, it is Islam on the defensive!

Terrorism is the manifestation of the vanquished, desperate to survive and be reckonable. The confident does not resort to terrorism, but can confront face to face. Therefore, while terrorism does create issues, it also indicates the fear crazed reaction of the vanquished! It is conceded that money of the Arabs play a major role to uplift the illiterate and malcontent of the Islamic society.

But it does not mean all is lost. This is the very attitude the terrorists want to imbibe in the non Muslims. It is true that when one’s near and dear one dies because of terrorist action, such thoughts are totally redundant. However, to fight terrorism, one must have sinews of steel and hit back hard. The US has done so, but our govt, remote controlled by the Papal loyalists, take solace in the Holy Bible where there is the injunction that the meek shall inherit the world. There could be no better choice for the Papal lobby in the selection of the meekest of the lot – our worth and intelligent PM! He and India, as he and the Papal loyalist believe will surely inherit the earth!

Some obtuse people suggest that it is as per the US dictates!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Aug 2009 17:24

sukhdeo wrote
The current Indian scenario and our ability to withstand Islamic invasions is qualitatively very different from those in the past. I contend that we are in a relatively much weaker position to withstand any new Islamic onslaught, whether it be military, cultural, economic or demographic. In none of the invasions of the past, did we have almost 40-45% of the native population of the subcontinent of Islamic faith and during none of the invasions of the past, the Islamic invaders were backed by massive, almost obscene oil wealth and during none of the invasions of the past, Islam was the most followed religion in the world providing the strategic depth to the invaders, as it is right now.

Lastly, in none of the invasions in the past, that we admittedly lost, were we internally so weak, corrupt, divided, demoralized, lacked strategic thinking to such an extent and lacked in collective will to self defense, as we do now.

Brihispati, I have been reading your posts and some of them seem to suggest to me at least that you are somehow treating the inevitable future invasions by Islam (not necessarily in the form of a conventional war), as a mere recycle of history, a sort of continuation of history. Even if you have considered the qualitative difference in the context of these future invasions from the invasions of the past or rather our ability to withstand these invasions now and in the future vis-a-vis our ability to withstand them in the past, your posts are not very clear about it.

I think I have been quite explicit about the reasons I think were behind primarily about the advance of Islam in India. The development of a mercantile mentality that treats everything as a commodity for sale anad trade, one's family, wife, daughter, son, parents, dependents, land, one's birth society and its populations, loyalty, nationhood - everything is a commodity of trade. Only the survival and continued consumptions of the self is the objective. I have discussed at least one possible hypothesis about the reasons behind the appearance of this mentality in the middle of the first millenium CE, in India, in the future scenarios thread.

The practical side conditions that helped the Islamics is also something I have mentioned before - climatic conditions. The period of success of Islamics coincide with severe centuries wide droughts in South and East Asia. By the time the final major colonization drive was underway, in the 13th century, India was only beginning to come out of almost 500 years of climatic turbulence.

The other thing that helped Islamics was a feature that is common in all "high-civilization" versus "barbarian" conflicts. China, Roman Empire, Egypt, India - all fell periodically to barbarians in spite of their so-called high civilization. The reason is not that difficult to see. Elaborate discussions will go OT. However, two things happen. First, is the over-confidence sometimes evident in our threads about our capability to defend ourselves - which is a natural product of civilizational arrogance stemming from aspects of civilizational achievement that has nothing to do with military capability and attitude towards enemies. The second, is the growth of a philosophical and ideological weakness that allows increasing fractures in the society in the name of accommodating diversity - the more sophisticated and more complex the society grows the more is the clamour for diversity. Over time, this divides the society into uncountable distinct and non-overlapping identities - where individuals no longer identify themselves with the whole of society. Thus the more important aspects of protecting a societal identity through preservation of demographic patterns and military defence or power projection beyond immediate boundaries to gain strategic depth are neglected. Such a society fails to be ruthless in crushing and erasing the "barbarian". There would be large and influential sections among the society who would feel their hearts overflowing with compassion towards the barbarians. Women in particular would be inclined favourably towards the barbarian, because the barbarian would represent the virility and ruthlessness that their own society has lost.

The tactical retreat happens because of the reflection of this sophistication even in treatment of the enemy. There will be a severe self-restriction in ruthlessness - a hesitation to use the methods used by the barbarians back on the barbarians.

The best way to treat Islamic Jihadists, back in the 800's or in the 1200's or now, is to treat them exactly as pests and harmful animals. People who do not recognize human rights of others to start with, cannot be given human rights. Talebs or Pakistani Jihadis have to be treated as animals without any human rights whatsoever. They have to be treated by the only language they understand - by switching off conscience temporarily, and bringing down on them everything they themselves apply on others as means of coercion.

Do we have such an attitude in Indian society. No. Without such an attitude we will never be able to tackle Jihad, however militarily spectacular we become. Barbarians do not win by superior military hardware, they win by a "superior" mindset towards the enemy. If every captured Arab or Turk was flayed alive and salted, or slowly burned, or impaled - if their territories and ports were destroyed, their women captured and enslaved, all adult males killed or tortured to death, then and only then Islamic Jihad would have been stopped.

I have only allowed the possibility of an invasion with the calculation that this will also take out the the very holders and preservers of this mindset of tolerance on the Indian side - the greatest obstacle to the safety of the Bharatyia nation. Unless you harden your minds to Jihadis and recognize them for what they are - cunning, human looking animals out for your flesh, to be ruthlessly destroyed using same coercive tactics they use on you - loss of large portions of the North is inevitable. But on the other hand such a progress by the Jihadis also clears our self-imposed handicaps in the form of removing those very people who shout their love out for the Islamic and prevent the right mindset from developing in India.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Aug 2009 00:08

B Sir
The Jihaiis got Jihadi kind of response in 47Punjab and lo, Nehru/ Gandhi types still do not spare any chance to destroy the spirit and ability to give similar response in future. Indians are in urgent need of spiritual, intellectual revival and it require their 'software" change with updated, upgraded version .

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 10 Aug 2009 00:16

The Jihaiis got Jihadi kind of response in 47Punjab

They got their lesson too that they have not forgotten -- till today the Jihadis do not have the guts to infiltrate into India from Punjab. They remember the Sikh sword very well. Instead, they use the West Bengal border because the Bengalis couldn't do to them what the Sikhs did. The softness of Bengal people in 1947 has cost our civilisation dear.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Aug 2009 00:26

^ I think you are being unfair to Bangalis here ; the situation only changed after 71 and specially when successive radical Islamist governments in BD turned a blind eye to anti India activities being propagated from BD land.And lastly Jyoti Basu's tenure in WB too did not help our cause.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 10 Aug 2009 00:41

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
The Jihaiis got Jihadi kind of response in 47Punjab
They got their lesson too that they have not forgotten -- till today the Jihadis do not have the guts to infiltrate into India from Punjab. They remember the Sikh sword very well. Instead, they use the West Bengal border because the Bengalis couldn't do to them what the Sikhs did. The softness of Bengal people in 1947 has cost our civilisation dear.

We need to stop this branding of Indian people. You can find enough examples and counter-examples in every state and community of India. Politicos, are a different breed -- this whole thread is about a decision by a politician from Punjab or is it from Assam

.

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 10 Aug 2009 00:52

Not sure if this was posted before : MK Dhar has come out strongly against GOI for its willingness to include B in the jt.statement. He's penned a detailed dossier. Please read:

Balochistan-cruces of history

Balochistan: Cruces of History- Part II

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Aug 2009 01:07

Congress leadership around Nehru was against accommodation of the "Islamic" if it was going to happen under the initiative and leadership of "political rivals". Bengalis did try political accommodation of the "moderate" Muslim, but was thwarted by the central leadership. I have been told in first person, by someone involved at that stage, how attempts to form coalition ministries with the moderate and till-then anti-partition portion of the "Muslims" were sabotaged. Subhasji tried, after his flight and so-called diasppearance, his brother tried, Fazlul Haq tried, but the "centre" was adamant.

The same person whose political intransigence against any accommodation of the "moderate" Muslim before the partition, and to a certain extent helped in accelerating and strengthening the demand for partition, swicthed swiftly to accommodation of "extreme" Muslim demands like that of a certain illustrious Abdullah-saab of J&K after the partition. The only difference between the two stages is that while before there was uncertainty about his succession, and most of the accommodation proposals were coming from people he considered his personal rivals, after his succession at the top had been ensured and his political rivals virtually liquidated, with the active support bases of his "rivals" completely destroyed through the physical trauma and uprooting of the populations of those bases.

We will see the fun, if VG starts campaigning to demand "sincere" and "proactive" talks with Pakistan and accommodating "Muslim" interests. All the narrowness and extreme selfishness inherent the NG line will come out in a merry dance to oppose talks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Aug 2009 05:41

August 11 ‘Independence Day’ of Balochistan : BNP

NASIRABAD : August 11 is Independence Day of Balochistan. And it would be celebrated with great enthusiasm.

This was stated by Secretary General Balochistan National Party (BNP) Habib Jalib Baloch while speaking with journalists in Dera Murad Jamali from Quetta by telephone Sunday.

He said Chattar incident is result of ongoing military operation in Balochistan, excesses and cruelty and exploitation.

Balochistan has been completely handed over to army and FC who have unleashed excesses against Baloch people.

Answering a question he said murder of provincial minister Rustam Jamali is work of agencies.

He was a Baloch Sardar and Baloch nation has suffered a loss.

Prior to his murder, Abdullah Baloch, Asif Baloch and Zahid Baloch were also killed in Karachi and their killers were not arrested yet.

Answering another question BNP leader said that present government is product of dictatorship. And policies of dictator like Musharraf were continuing.

He said era for depriving Baloch nation of its resources and right to rule is over now. Now destination is near.

Answering another question he said August 11 is day of Independent Balochistan.

A public meeting would be held in Sarab. It is because once Sarab was the headquarter of Balochistan.

He strongly criticised provincial government and said it has arrested our important leaders and it has revealed government's frustration clearly.

So thats why the TSP linked Balochistan in S-e-S statement so they can justify the repression as Indian inspired. From above statement things are going south in Balochistan and Pakis are at wits end to deal with the crisis. And are dragging Indian name into the mix so thay can increase repression.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Aug 2009 08:03

Editorial in The Hindu

Islamabad must realise there is nothing to be gained anymore from being less than transparent on the JuD or on any other group that has India in its cross-hairs. The India-Pakistan agreement at Sharm-al-Shaikh is bold in its vision for peace in South Asia, and the two sides must be commended for it. But this vision cannot be achieved as long as Pakistan remains a prisoner of the self-serving fiction that projects Hafiz Saeed as an altruist and his group as some kind of Islamist Brothers of Charity.

This is the BS that newspapers like The Hindu propagate. Pakistan had been very consistent in the way it was treating LeT/JuD/Hafeez Saeed. Before the S-e-S surrender, the Lahore High Court had simply dismissed the Punjab Government's arguments on why Hafeez Saeed should be kept confined. It also went beyond its brief questioning the Federal Government why Pakistan alone is expected to enforce the UNSC resolution on JuD while India did not do the same wrt the UNSC resolution on Kashmir. The Pakistani mindset is obvious where their sympathies lie and why. It should not come as a shock therefore that Hafeez is being let go scot free. The Hindu is trying to argue as though Pakistan is now unable to translate the vision exhibited by its leader, Gilani, at Sharm el Sheikh. It was never a vision; it was just hudabaiya, pure and simple.

But, why is The Hindu saying these things about Hafeez Saeed and linking them with the vision ? Hasn't our MEA already said that the Indo-Pak relationship should not depend on the fate of a single person such as Hafeez Saeed ? There are many such 'single persons' such as Masood Azhar, Dawood Ibrahim, Lakhvi, Zarar Shah, Syed Salahuddin et al. We can apply the same reasoning and not bother about any of them.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Aug 2009 08:22

And above Dawood bhai still owning million Crores worth property and running business as usual in India, thats called the genious of management no? If he says Natch meri jaan phata phat, from Karachi the whole of Bollywood babes would be doing the thing barely concealing anything but joy

One of my pet conspiracy theories is that Dawood is either a 4000% Indian agent or 6000% double agent. Is he the Trojan horse we gifted Pakistan?

Added: Snow gaaru, I have head "rumors" about electronic goods being brought during one particular time period from a particular tear-drop shaped country. Well I don't want to invite the wrath of Sanjay M.