MRCA News and Discussion

[SaiK]

'was googling for the weapons trial, I hit this

Lockheed boss flees
Even as US firm Lockheed Martin makes an aggressive pitch with its legendary F-16 fighter, it has embroiled itself in an embarrassing controversy that forced its India chief to quit and leave India secretly. In a bizarre twist, Lockheed Martin headquarters sent back to the MoD a couple of its internal files that the US defence firm had illegally obtained. The files came back because of a mess-up by a senior executive who thought it was legitimately handed over to the firm by the MoD.
link

mmm.. so there is the loop hole for corruption. How come MoD has no idea about illegal documents?

[nachiket]

^^ Very old news. Did you see the date on the article? July 2009.

[SaiK]

I know.. but I missed this event.. my point was the loop holes

[GeorgeWelch]

IIRC, the Shornet had some wing-stress problems, vibration issues and has pylons/weapons canted outwards

The aerodynamic issue with wing drop has been fixed, it doesn't matter how much more thrust there is.

what will a dramatic increase in thrust do to a somewhat already draggy setup?

The amount of drag has been exaggerated. Regardless, drag is the least of the causes of stress on an airframe.

It's simply not an issue

but it seems to me that higher thrust during ACM would result in far greater G loads and stresses on the airframe

Higher thrust might mean you can hit your G-limit easier, but it doesn't impact what that limit is. If an airframe is rated for 9G, it can do 9G maneuvers, period.

[Cain Marko]

The aerodynamic issue with wing drop has been fixed, it doesn't matter how much more thrust there is.

Good to hear that, lets hope it stays that way.

The amount of drag has been exaggerated. Regardless, drag is the least of the causes of stress on an airframe.It's simply not an issue

Pardon my ignorance, but that seems a bit counter intuitive. If increased thrust means greater acceleration and possibly speed, then won't a draggy frame face greater resistance than a more streamlined one? Won't greater resistance translate into greater stress? This is purely layman thinking of course - but when I have my window down in my car and stick my hand out palm facing forwards, it is literally thrown backwards (quite violently) @ 120kmph, otoh, if I join my fingers and keep them pointing forwards, there is hardly any such reaction.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the shornet airframe might need to be optimized a bit to truly benefit from the excess power. Of course, it might v.well be that in regimes that it really needs the excess energy, such issues don't exist (at lower speeds perhaps)

Higher thrust might mean you can hit your G-limit easier, but it doesn't impact what that limit is. If an airframe is rated for 9G, it can do 9G maneuvers, period.

YOu are probly right, I s'pose the FCS won't allow manouvers greater than the designated limit on the frame.

CM.

[shukla]

Boeing to showcase F/A-18 at Defexpo 2010, amongst other equipment..

Boeing [NYSE: BA] will present world-class products and services including the F/A-18IN Super Hornet, C-17 Globemaster III, P-8I, AH-64D Apache and CH-47F Chinook to Indian government officials, military officers, and other valued stakeholders at Defexpo 2010. The exhibition takes place Feb. 15-18 at the Pragati Maidan complex in New Delhi.

"This is an important year for Boeing Defense, Space & Security ( BDS ) in India," said Vivek Lall, BDS vice president and India country head. "Many of our products and platforms are currently in competition or under active consideration by the government, and we are looking forward to demonstrating how they will quickly contribute to India's defense modernization and bring long-term industrial benefits to the nation."

During the show, BDS executives will invite stakeholders into an F/A-18IN Super Hornet cockpit simulator to demonstrate the aircraft's advanced features, including its superior air-to-ground and air-to-air capabilities.

I think, of the 6 in fray, Boeing takes a comfortable lead in marketing & publicizing the SH.. Others should take a cue...

http://media-newswire.com/release_1112111.html

[shukla]

Boeing's final roll of the dice for the Brazilian competition pitching the SH?

Meanwhile the new American ambassador in Brazil, Thomas Shannon, asked Lula to take into consideration the quality of the American fighter jets as he decides which one to buy.

http://www.brazzilmag.com/component/con ... ision.html

[GeorgeWelch]

Pardon my ignorance, but that seems a bit counter intuitive. If increased thrust means greater acceleration and possibly speed, then won't a draggy frame face greater resistance than a more streamlined one?

1. Yes, but the stress of drag on an airframe is minor compared to the stress of high-G maneuvers

2. This will only come into play at speeds higher than its current top speed. The SH already demonstrated M1.8+ for the India trials, so any speed lower than that is not an issue.

The increased thrust is being sold NOT to increase top-end speed (which is more an issue of aerodynamics than thrust), but to increase hot-and-high takeoff performance (allowing it to get off the ground with more fuel and weapons) and to increase ACCELERATION, so it will be quicker to recover from energy-bleeding maneuvers.

[putnanja]

'was googling for the weapons trial, I hit this

Lockheed boss flees
Even as US firm Lockheed Martin makes an aggressive pitch with its legendary F-16 fighter, it has embroiled itself in an embarrassing controversy that forced its India chief to quit and leave India secretly. In a bizarre twist, Lockheed Martin headquarters sent back to the MoD a couple of its internal files that the US defence firm had illegally obtained. The files came back because of a mess-up by a senior executive who thought it was legitimately handed over to the firm by the MoD.
link

mmm.. so there is the loop hole for corruption. How come MoD has no idea about illegal documents?

Shows you the power of US. If Mr Antony wanted to maintain the clean image, he should have kicked out LM out of competition for stealing files from Indian MoD. But given that it is US, it has been hushed up! Hence my assumption that the MRCA will go the americans irrespective of which aircraft the IAF actually wants.

Compare that to the artillery acquisition scandal so far!

[shukla]

HAL manufactures doors for p-8i!!!

-Boeing Co. (BA) Thursday said it has signed an agreement with India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. to source so-called weapons bay doors for its P-8I long-range maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-201 ... theadlines

[Philip]

I'm sure that HAL can also make the sh*tpots too! This is a wonderful example of high tech transfer by Boeing.We have been making aircraft doors for decades for Airbus if memory serves me right.The day we start designing and making indigenous aircraft engines and our own AESA radars,that will be a day for celebration.

If 2015 is going to be induction year for the 5th-gen fighters,we should start examining our force structure by that date,what we will have in service and what aircraft will be in the pipeline,locally and foreign built.By that date,all the upgrades for the MIG-27/29,Jaguars and perhaps the M-2000s would've been complete.This gives a combined total of approx. 300 aircraft.Add to this the 120 MIG-21 Bisons in service and "230" SU-30MKIs being built and acquired,plus whatever LCAs we can build by that time (perhaps 40 only as the MK-2 with the new engine will take at least 2-3 years to perfect?).This will give us a grand total of around 700 aircraft.This is inadequate as Pak plans to acquire about 500 aircraft at least by then.The MMRCAs will as they are inducted replace the oldest of the upgraded aircraft progressively.If a decision is taken by 2011,then they will start arriving only by 2013.I cannot see the GOI/IAF buying more than the 120+ once MK-2 LCA and the 5th-gen fighter start arriving.We may even want more Flanker derivatives to meet new challenges from Pak and China.If we are truly planning for an MCA (to replace the LCA programme which would be rather dated by 2015),then the MMRCA acquisition will suffer the most as it will be vastly inferior to the 5th-gen fighter and more expensive than our local birds LCA/MCA, which will be built to keep the PSUs busy.If this scenario is accurate,then whatever aircraft and TOT required should be aimed at supporting the LCA/MCA projects.A combination of the Gripen for the MMRCA and EJ engine for the LCA MK-2 could meet the lot if western tech is a prime requirement,as in any case our top drawer aircraft and tech will be the Indo-Russian PAK-FA.

[prabir]

If ISRO can manufacture launch vehicles and sattelites, why HAL cannot go up the manufacturing value chain ? All we need is kick people at the right places and force them to deliver.
Import lobby also need to be taken care of. It is just a matter of time, when such hurdles will be crossed. Changes of this type cannot be sabotaged.

[nachiket]

.....This is inadequate as Pak plans to acquire about 500 aircraft at least by then.....

Says who? Can you please give a breakdown of these 500?

[shukla]

I'm sure that HAL can also make the sh*tpots too! This is a wonderful example of high tech transfer by Boeing.We have been making aircraft doors for decades for Airbus if memory serves me right.The day we start designing and making indigenous aircraft engines and our own AESA radars,that will be a day for celebration.

I agree.. but i think HAL does supply some equipment for Boeing p-8i through its avionics division in Hyderabad.. (not sure what kind though) apart from equipment for the SH.. at the same time I don't think too much could be read into it in the MMRCA context..

"Although HAL provides other equipment for the P-8I through its avionics division in Hyderabad, this is the first P-8I offset package that Boeing has directly executed with India's largest aerospace company," Lal added.

"HAL's consistent performance in quality, cost and delivery in manufacturing aerostructures and composite assemblies is the key to securing further orders from Boeing, with whom we share a strong relationship," said Soundara Rajan, HAL's director for corporate planning and marketing.

HAL has alredy begun supplying fuselage parts for the formidable Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet combat jet in what is seen as global recognition for the Indian aeronautical industry. The F-18 is one of the six aircraft contending for an IAF order for 126 jets.

HAL has already sent five sets of the F-18's gun bay doors (GBDs) to Boeing and 13 more are under manufacture as part of an initial contract.

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... sid=168699

Some of HAL's other international ventures include -
BOEING, USA (Uplock box assy. for Boeing 777, Over wing exit doors for Boeing 757, To MHI Japan Bulk cargo door for Boeing 767)
AIRBUS, FRANCE (Forward passenger doors for Airbus A320)
BAE SYSTEMS, UK (Jaguar airframe spares)
ROYAL AIRFORCE OF OMAN (Jaguar airframe spare)

I know its not a reason to pop the champagne bottles but its just nice to see HAL getting offshore contracts & by the looks of it, Boeing's probable got a reasonable foothold...

[Brando]

If 2015 is going to be induction year for the 5th-gen fighters,we should start examining our force structure

That is a fantasy. No way in hell would the fifth generation fighter be ready for induction by 2015; especially for India, no matter what propaganda the Russians peddle.

At the earliest, the FGFA could possibly enter the Indian Air Force by later half of this decade around 2018-2020 but even that is highly doubtful. Even the F-22 first flew as the YF-22 in 1990. It took them nearly 7 years to build and fly the first production model that we know today as the F22 in 1997. And another couple of years for induction. The T-50 is at an even more rudimentary stage than the Yf-22 that Lockheed brought to the competition.

The MRCA competition and the roles it will fill need to address the massive gap that ie forming "right now" rather than concentrate on accommodating it in some future air force fleet. The IAF doesn't need to look to the future at all. They just need to look around them at the dozens of squadrons flying rust-buckets made for the 60s to make a decision.

[nrshah]

...............The MRCA competition and the roles it will fill need to address the massive gap that ie forming "right now" rather than concentrate on accommodating it in some future air force fleet. The IAF doesn't need to look to the future at all. They just need to look around them at the dozens of squadrons flying rust-buckets made for the 60s to make a decision.

How about taking LCA MK1 and MK2 also in account? I think it makes sense. LCA Mk1 is capable of replacing Mig 21 and Mig 27 and Jaguar. LCA Mk2 will exceed them by huge margin and will come near M2K which of course will stay till FGFA is inducted.

MMRCA has gone ahead of replacing fish beds... They will be replaced by LCA MK 1 which can even replace Mig 27 and Jaguar. MMRCA is now to complement to MCA/AMCA/NGFA

[dorai]

France not finding any partners on building rafale really shows in the costs...

The link is in French but you can read the table...

Almost 200 million dollars (143 million euro) for a Rafale including development costs. But this is based on France actually buying 286 jets which they have not yet done.. if they buy fewer the unit price will go up even more.

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-monde/ ... 8/0/422158

[Bharadwaj]

Ran into an MMRCA ad from Northrop Grumman on TOI website which led to this

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/mmrca/

[SaiK]

.....This is inadequate as Pak plans to acquire about 500 aircraft at least by then.....

Says who? Can you please give a breakdown of these 500?

may be a safe assumption, but i guess they won't be keeping quite.. beg, steal or borrow they will get it from somewhere. F-16s to J11s.

[shukla]

SELEX which provides key equipments to both the EF & Gripen seeks opportunities in India..

SELEX Galileo is currently pursuing opportunities in the maritime patrol and surveillance domain, related to retrofit programmes for the Sea King and Kamov-28 helicopters of the Indian Navy. The Company’s ATOS (Airborne Tactical Observation and Surveillance) system provides wide area and targeted surveillance (overt or covert), anti-submarine warfare and environmental and border control. ATOS can be integrated with Seaspray, the Company’s cutting edge Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar technology. For Unmanned Aerial Systems and for helicopters, SELEX Galileo offers the smaller, lighter PicoSAR AESA radar, which provides an unrivalled all weather capability.

In the Land & Battlespace sector, SELEX Galileo is also pursuing various programmes for the upgrading of armoured vehicles as well as those for the enhancement of land troops’ awareness, effectiveness and protection where equipment can be linked together within a common tactical network.

One solution is the battle-proven Laser Inertial Navigation and Pointing System (LINAPS) which provides pin-point navigation and pointing accuracy for artillery and is in service, and in theatre, with several armed forces. The Company’s other solutions include the modular and proven 3rd Generation Fire Control System TURMS/T which is a significant upgrade for Main Battle Tanks such as the T-72, the electro-optic suite for the dismounted soldier, and the acoustic hostile locator HALO.

To provide a solid base for the growth of the Company’s Electronic Warfare and Protection business in India, SELEX Galileo last year signed a Memorandum of Understanding with BEL to explore EW-related business opportunities for the Indian market. The Company is currently promoting the combat-proven HIDAS defensive aid suite that delivers world-class protection for helicopters, as well as radar decoys for naval vessels and aircraft such as the Eurofighter Typhoon.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/13113/

[shukla]

EF expresses confidence in winning MMRCA race.... offers co-development of future enhancements on the EF & customization for future Indian requirements!

Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of Military Air Systems, a Business Unit of EADS Defence & Security (DS), underlines “We are well positioned in the ongoing tender for the acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) because the Eurofighter Typhoon is the ideal answer to the threats that India faces. The aircraft’s outstanding operational performance coupled with low life-cycle costs and a tailor-made industrial partnership offer make the Eurofighter Typhoon a key contender in India’s competition.”

More than 700 orders and over 200 deliveries to the four European core customers as well as to Austria and Saudi Arabia prove that Eurofighter Typhoon is a mature international weapons programme. The signature of the Tranche 3 A contract by Germany, the United Kingdom, Italy and Spain in July 2009 reiterated the strong commitment of its core customers. “This milestone secures production continuity for years to come, and forthcoming upgrades will further enhance the aircrafts’ operational performance”, says Gerwert, adding “Now we are keen to phase India into the Eurofighter programme as a true industrial partner. By co-developing cutting edge future capabilities with us, India could play a key role in tapping the plane’s tremendous built-in growth potential. As a production and development partner for future enhancements, India could also customize the Eurofighter Typhoon to its specific requirements.”
In addition to supporting the growth of India’s indigenous defence industry, the four Eurofighter Typhoon partner companies and their 400 suppliers will give India access to an international sourcing network of unparalleled scope. They are confident to meet the 50 percent offset obligation of the Request for Proposal (RFP).

Also, German EF in India as a part of ongoing field evaluation trials.. and it showcases its flight simulator at the DEFEXPO..

On Monday, 15 February, aircraft of the German Air Force will take off from Germany for Bengaluru where the Eurofighter Typhoon will be examined by the Indian Air Force in the MMRCA Field Evaluation Programme. Until March, trials will also be conducted in Jaisalmer and Leh. There, the combat aircraft will demonstrate its desert and high altitude performance.

http://frontierindia.net/eurofighter-ty ... mrca-order

Though exceptionally expensive, I believe the EF still stands an outside chance..especially if the EJ200 is selected for the LCA..

[arun]

If the Brazilian news reports regarding the pricing of the packages being offered are to be believed, How the HELL are we going to afford 126 jets for 10.2billion incl sales, support, maintainence, etc... And all those harping about multiple-vendor contracts should check this out.......

It said the total Rafale deal was worth 10.2 billion dollars, comprising 6.2 billion dollars for the fighters themselves -- down from a previous 8.2 billion -- and four billion for maintenance over the next three decades.

The discount still made the Rafale more expensive than its rivals, it said, putting the Boeing package at 7.6 billion dollars (including 5.7 billion dollars for the F/A-18s themselves) and the Saab offer at 6.0 billion (with the Gripen planes accounting for 4.5 billion dollars).

{Snipped} ..................

Here's the full report..

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... qqVEx7OCEg

Ouch, our MRCA requirement is going to cost us a pretty penny.

Going by the prices being bandied about in the ongoing Brazilian fighter competition, per aircraft prices for the aircraft alone are:

Gripen …………USD 125.00 Million
Super Hornet ......USD 158.33 Million
Rafael ………….USD 172.22 Million

Looks like the MiG 35, presuming they will not be a substantial multiple of the MiG 29K prices, will be shoo in.

[Aditya_V]

Errr, that includes life cycle costs, wonder how the Mig-35 does in that respect.

[arun]

^^^ I think not. The article provides maintenance cost separately.

[Samay]

If rafale is too costly then we should purchase its full technology and manufacture it ourselves, I suppose it will cost half the estimated amount if we make it ourselves ,.We can actually apply it to any aircraft,. We gain finally what we want, they gain what they want,.
just wait till trials end and order which ever suits best
No offset issues either .
Doing things in a way that is simpler and no hitches like what happens in hawk/sukhoi deals,.
We are already developing so much tech that we will finally MKIze it much easier .
Dassault/eads will be too happy to be bailed out by some other country .

Whats your opinion gurus, ultimately we want 126 aircrafts with technology in our own hands ,isnt it??

[NRao]

We have been through this before, or at least I thought so.

The Brazilian offer price has nothing to do with the Indian offer price. IF they are related where does the price of a F-16 stand? Also, since a "MiG-35" is not even being produced who is to say it will be cheaper or more expensive? In fact I thing just because it is not being produced it could be rather expensive.

[sumshyam]

Also, since a "MiG-35" is not even being produced who is to say it will be cheaper or more expensive? In fact I thing just because it is not being produced it could be rather expensive.

As the prototypes has been produced....so the cost estimates can be made....!

Generally cost of serial production is less than cost of prototype production....off-course considering same market conditions ...!

[Pratik_S]

Considering the Flyaway price of Typhoon for Austria which is 85 million dollars and the system price of Typhoon for Germany which is 115million dollars the price of Typhoon becomes 200 million dollars per unit. Considering the economics of scale and price reduction due to production the price of typhoon should come down by atleast 10 million dollars if not more. So at 190 million dollars Typhoon according to me is a good buy, its the only fighter in the competition which can match the flight performance of the MiG-35 along with is sophisticated avionics and partnership in the Typhoon program would mean massive technological benefits for Indian Industry. India can also take part in future upgradation programs to make them suit more for IAF.

[sumshyam]

So at 190 million dollars Typhoon according to me is a good buy, its the only fighter in the competition which can match the flight performance of the MiG-35 along with is sophisticated avionics and partnership in the Typhoon program would mean massive technological benefits for Indian Industry. India can also take part in future upgradation programs to make them suit more for IAF.

why not then buy MIG 35's at lesser cost...and joining Russians for an up-gradation program would not be much of a problem...I think...!

[Pratik_S]

I support the MiG-35 too, because of its low price(Training, maintenance facility, spares, etc), it has a world class OLS, 3DTVC probably makes it the most maneuverable aircraft,etc.

But the nay sayers have a point that no production model has been built, no other country including Russia is interested in buying it, all eggs in one basket prophecy, quality , etc

Typhoon will be free from most political problems (read arm twisting) thus making it a good choice to buy, nobody can doubt that in terms of technology its the most advance fighter of them all.

[NRao]

As the prototypes has been produced....so the cost estimates can be made....!

Generally cost of serial production is less than cost of prototype production....off-course considering same market conditions ...!

I think the MiG-35 is way off the mark. The radar is not even installed (posted that article some days ago). They have stated that they will not be able to deliver the first on until 2014 or so (IIRC). As I stated earlier, I am not fairly confident that they do not even have their supply chain in proper place - this is not a knock on them, since there is no guarantee that they will be awarded the contract they cannot risk it.

I would venture two things: a) The MiG-35 as is will change IF it is selected and b) given the PAK-FA the MiG-35 will change even further (both +ves for India), BUT the cost of all that cannot be envisioned right now.

At best the cost of a MiG-35 can be estimated to much older techs in the MiG series. But that is a huge risk in itself.

IMHO, there in more fluid a plane than the MiG-35. Too many (good?) options.

[Joype]

Was this posted here?

As per Eurofighter press office, during recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.

The 111 Squadron of the Spanish Air Force as well as the 493rd Squadron of the U.S. Air Force were deployed for training in Gando Air Base, Gran Canaria. The Spanish Squadron attended the training with a total of six Eurofighter Typhoons. The U.S. Air Force deployed F-15s.

In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation “against” the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to “shoot down” four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities. Trump that.

http://frontierindia.net/eurofighter-ty ... rumps-f-15

[Craig Alpert]

Was this posted here?

As per Eurofighter press office, during recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.

The 111 Squadron of the Spanish Air Force as well as the 493rd Squadron of the U.S. Air Force were deployed for training in Gando Air Base, Gran Canaria. The Spanish Squadron attended the training with a total of six Eurofighter Typhoons. The U.S. Air Force deployed F-15s.

In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation “against” the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to “shoot down” four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities. Trump that.

http://frontierindia.net/eurofighter-ty ... rumps-f-15

Yes. This was posted here couple of weeks back.

[Carl_T]

Is it not the NG that satisfies the original requirements? I had thought the idea was to get a small/light/cheap/multirole fighter that can be bought in larger quantities with the AESA radar, while saving the $$ for the big boys (MKI/PAKFA).

If our disadvantage compared to our rivals is not in technology but in number and age of aircrafts, shouldn't that be where the focus should lie, considering we have a superior plane on the way by the end of the decade?

It just seems to me that with the EF, we will spend a lot of money per plane, and not really solve the issue of numbers.

[Kartik]

If rafale is too costly then we should purchase its full technology and manufacture it ourselves, I suppose it will cost half the estimated amount if we make it ourselves ,.We can actually apply it to any aircraft,. We gain finally what we want, they gain what they want,.
just wait till trials end and order which ever suits best
No offset issues either .
Doing things in a way that is simpler and no hitches like what happens in hawk/sukhoi deals,.
We are already developing so much tech that we will finally MKIze it much easier .
Dassault/eads will be too happy to be bailed out by some other country .

yaar, if the aircraft is too expensive to buy, how the hell can you afford to "purchase its full technology" ? and why on earth will Dassault sell India the "full technology" ? This is their cutting edge product, they've spent nearly $3-4 billion or more in R&D for it and they'll just transfer it to India ? And licence production is in many ways transferring quite a lot of manufacturing technology as it is, so its not something to laugh at.
the problem with this MRCA thread is that people just keep coming out with fancy scenarios- lets do this, lets do that. there's a race to out-do each other with ideas of why not this, why not that with nary a thought on its feasibility..and don't say you "suppose it will cost half if we make it ourselves". India is already going to produce 106 of the MRCA's. Are you saying that those will cost half of what the original 18 produced in France will cost ? Please show us some actual analysis of how the Rafale will cost half if built in India. will the tools cost that much cheaper, will the dies, jigs, the material, the labour all cost half? where will you source the avionics from ? do the guys from whom you source it have no cost to incur in first setting up the production line for this ? what about the cost of the licence fees ? where does that go? After all, this isn't China, where they cheat the OEM by first committing to a certain number and then mid-way through say that they're building an "indigenous" copy and no more will need to pay a licensing fee.
and what do you mean by "no offset issues either" ? Offsets are good for India- they mean local business is generated worth half the investment made by India in the deal.
and what does this statement mean?

Doing things in a way that is simpler and no hitches like what happens in hawk/sukhoi deals,.

pray, explain to us how you hit upon a formula that MoD and industry didn't, to make things so simple where no hitches are likely ?

.
Dassault/eads will be too happy to be bailed out by some other country .

and this is just your opinion, whereas facts don't match it. Both these companies have orders that will keep their lines active through this decade. They are not begging India to choose their product, and they aren't going to be bailed out by an Indian order. Dassault has a likely UAE and Kuwait order plus Brazil that will keep them busy. EADS has enough committed not to be affected if they lose. the only companies whose fate may likely be tied to this order are MiG and Saab and their offers will likely reflect that. LM couldn't care less with the F-35 coming up.
no offence meant, but its just getting tiring how guys come up with these schemes that they never fully explain to solve all the woes that befall us. and if they do, are full of holes and assumptions. please guys, stay realistic and stop weaving these dream scenarios.

[Craig Alpert]

Eurofighter Typhoon flying in from Germany to start user trials

12 Feb 2010 8ak/Eurofighter PR: On Monday, 15 February, aircraft of the German Air Force will take off from Germany for Bengaluru where the Eurofighter Typhoon will be examined by the Indian Air Force in the MMRCA Field Evaluation Programme. Until March, trials will also be conducted in Jaisalmer and Leh. There, the combat aircraft will demonstrate its desert and high altitude performance. Eurofighter Typhoon’s deployment to India coincides with the start of DEFEXPO 2010 in New Delhi where its capabilities will be showcased in a unique simulator at the Eurofighter Typhoon stand.

On 13 Aug 2009 Ajai Shukla reported on the contradictory signals that Eurofighter received from the Indian government. Overall, there is general agreement that it is a fabulous plane but the pricing is an issue. EADS would again be vary given its very recent negative experience with the Airbus mid-air refueller cancellation. While even the IAF had concluded that it was almost a done deal, the Finance Ministry shot it down on the basis that it was too expensive. Could the same happen if the Eurofighter was chosen for the MMRCA?

And another area of focus will be the Eurojet engine that powers the plane. It makes commercial sense for India to choose the same engine for the MMRCA that they would choose to power the Tejas.

[Pratik_S]

Is it not the NG that satisfies the original requirements? I had thought the idea was to get a small/light/cheap/multirole fighter that can be bought in larger quantities with the AESA radar, while saving the $$ for the big boys (MKI/PAKFA).

If our disadvantage compared to our rivals is not in technology but in number and age of aircrafts, shouldn't that be where the focus should lie, considering we have a superior plane on the way by the end of the decade?

It just seems to me that with the EF, we will spend a lot of money per plane, and not really solve the issue of numbers.

Well if the Typhoon is capable of taking on overwhelming odds like mentioned in the DACT link won't it solve the problem. Pakis have only F-16's which can come close the IAF's inventory so around 50-60 F-16s. Mirages, F-7 and JF-17( ) are obsolete. Half of Chinese fleet is also obsolete. But by 2020 we can expect them to replace those birds by the J-Flanker and J-10. The numbers would be around 1000. Were as IAF's will be around 870 with MiG-29, Mirages, MKI, Jags and Tejas. Plus every single aircraft in IAF's inventory is superior to the chinese jingos so we should be able to knock their AF out with quality.

[Austin]

I think only a single engine fighter can give you advantage in Initial Purchase Cost and Maintenence cost and you can put in more numbers.

So it boils down to F-16IN or Gripen-IN which can bring in decent technology and numbers to the table { we probably need to look at 250 - 300 MMRCA type in the next 15 years }

Mig-35 may be less or equally costlier to these single engine types as far as initial cost goes, but its Maintenance cost and Total Life Cycle cost perhaps will be much higher.

[SaiK]

Remember the cancellation of Airbus on cost factor. Our babooze can do anything.. sorry IAF, has no control here.

[shukla]

Lockheed's official confirms completion of second phase trials for the F-16..

Prins (a senior executive of LM's India unit) said Lockheed Martin last week completed a third phase of trials of its F-16 Falcon fighter plane, competing for an estimated $10 billion contract from the Indian Air Force to supply 126 combat jets.

"We completed second phase in India last year. Phase-three trials are in the home country of each competitor and we completed those last week in the U.S.," he said.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/lockhe ... 2010-02-13